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Posted: 10/1/2001 8:37:47 AM EDT
I'm playing with the idea of taking my AR out this year for the deer season. The whitetails in the area I'm going to run between 60 to 80 pounds dressed and the shots are normally about 75 yards and under. I was thinking about using the Winchester 64 grain softpoints. Anyone have any expiriences with this round? Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:45:00 AM EDT
Wessono Check this post: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=43397[/url] I did some testing w/ the 64 grn PowerPoint this weekend for a different purpose. What Twist and barrel length are u shooting? Mike
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:58:13 AM EDT
Mr_Wilson, I'd be using a 20" with 1 in 7 twist. What kind of testing did you do? P.S. Thanks for the link - I must have missed it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 9:04:27 AM EDT
You didn't miss it, I been searching 30 pages of old posts looking for one w/ exactly the same wording as yours, couldn't find it, but found this one: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=49664[/url] Mike
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 9:22:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2001 9:18:05 AM EDT by Sukebe]
.223 for deer, why not? This is no B.S., I know a guy who took a big 15 point buck with one shot from a .22 Hornet. It blew the lungs to mush.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 9:34:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2001 11:33:46 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
wessono, Sorry got dumped by my work network for Monday virus update. I was hoping to have the Win 64 Power Point do double duty. As a CQB round for my 11.5" (1/9)upper and as a deer round ([b]head shots only[/b]) out of my 24" CR 6724 1/9 Elite. Hope to get a place to post target pictures of rounds fired this last weekend and give complete report asap. The short version is I started w/ 24.0 grains of H 335 in once fired Rem cases w/ Rem 7.5 Benchrest primers loaded mag length. Groups were in 1" to 1.5" w/ my 24" @ 100yds, not too good. I managed to tighten them up to inside an 1" but was not happy as they were pushing the [b]REDLINE[/b] at 25+grns and at 200 yds they seem to have lost the moa I gained. They hit like a 260 Rem or 270 at 200 (examining the serious dents in the 1/2" steel plates we shoot and comparing depth of penetration) but at 400 they did good to knock the paint off. I managed to accomplish my primary task though as w/ the 24.0 grain load in the 11.5" I managed to get almost as good a group as w/ the CR6724 24". Consensus was that these bullets are really designed for 1/12" twist barrels. Dad shot 3 rounds in his new custom Krieger barreled 223 Rem 700 bolt, 1/7.75" twist and they were terrible 4"+ for 3 rounds in an gun that will put 5 - 77grn SMK molys in 1 hole @ 100. While the dents at 100 and 200 convinced me these bullets pack a heavy punch, I believe you'll have to really push them faster than I care to to get them to group sub-moa at 100-200 yards. That being said no 2 different guns react the same so you may want to try them, but don't buy too many as I think your 1/7" will be too fast. Hope this helps and as stated above if I can find a place to put my target scans I'll post them so that others can see my results. Mike
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 9:40:27 AM EDT
I have taken several deer with 223. As long as they are on the small side and you aren't shooting at over 200 yards, it shouldn't be a problem.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 9:41:22 AM EDT
PS: [b]Moderator[/b] might want to move this thread to hunting or reloading section so it doesn't get buried and others may benefit. Just a suggestion. Mike
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 10:30:23 AM EDT
Ive used a 60's vintage ar with a 3-9 scope for 20 years on deer in northern michigan.Switched to an ak for a couple years , then went back.I just use 55gr fmj, the softpoints seem to expand prematurly and ruin a lot of meat.If you do use one ,at least in mi.,make damn sure you have the magazine blocked to 5rnd,because the weapon does attract attention in the woods, and the mdnr will check.They can confiscate the weapon if you are in violation of anything!
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 5:29:50 PM EDT
Using a 223 is plain cruel. There are many better choices. It will kill them. {infection}. A 22 hornet make deer lungs into mush, Bullshit alert went off. GG
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 5:47:27 PM EDT
Gun Guru, I can tell you're not a balistic guru. If you were, you would know that a head or neck shot with a high velocity bullet is very humane. If you think a .223 is cruel, I hear some nuts are using pointy shafts ejected from a taunt string to kill deer! [;)]
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 6:21:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARben: Gun Guru, I can tell you're not a balistic guru. If you were, you would know that a head or neck shot with a high velocity bullet is very humane. If you think a .223 is cruel, I hear some nuts are using pointy shafts ejected from a taunt string to kill deer! [;)]
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No, Im saying a 30'06 is a better choice. Its not ballistics, its common sence. Neck and head shots are great but dont come always. I love my AR but I know it was designed to wound people seriously, therefor I dont use it to hunt Cape buffalo. GG
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 7:05:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: I have taken several deer with 223. As long as they are on the small side and you aren't shooting at over 200 yards, it shouldn't be a problem.
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Agreed. End of story. But like somebody else said, block that mag. I have a ten rounder that came with one of my post bans set up just for this purpose.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 7:16:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 7:32:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 7:46:05 PM EDT
[/quote] No, Im saying a 30'06 is a better choice. Its not ballistics, its common sence. Neck and head shots are great but dont come always. I love my AR but I know it was designed to wound people seriously, therefor I dont use it to hunt Cape buffalo. GG[/quote] First, what it all comes down to (after legal issues of course) is the skill and choice of the hunter. There is no such thing as common sense. I use all sorts of stuff for hunting (30-06, .223, .357, .44, .308, bow, ect), but I have been recently using handguns and my .223's in order to challenge my marksmanship and my patience. If a shot that I want is not present, then I don't shoot the deer in the butt and hope my whizz bang super mag does the rest. It should be that way regardless if using a .22 hornet or a .50 BMG. If you can't wait for a humane shot, you shouldn't be hunting. Second, the .223 was not designed to wound. Third, we're talking about deer hunting in close range, not cape buffalo! I hope no one takes an '06 hunting cape buffalo (that would be a big mistake) Sorry to sound a little punky, but if someone has the ability, a .223 is just as deadly as any other caliber. [soapbox]
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:01:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARben: Gun Guru, I can tell you're not a balistic guru. If you were, you would know that a head or neck shot with a high velocity bullet is very humane. If you think a .223 is cruel, I hear some nuts are using pointy shafts ejected from a taunt string to kill deer! [;)]
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Hello ARben, Not only pointy shafts but pistols and 19th century technology muzzleloaders! An AR with a quality hunting bullet is fine for deer, IMHO. But follow the laws!
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:06:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:12:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By ARben: Gun Guru, I can tell you're not a balistic guru. If you were, you would know that a head or neck shot with a high velocity bullet is very humane. If you think a .223 is cruel, I hear some nuts are using pointy shafts ejected from a taunt string to kill deer! [;)]
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If one is disciplined enough to pass up most deer due to no available [b]sure[/b] head/neck shot, you are correct. I come from the standpoint that a deer should never be shot unless the kill is as dead sure as it can be. That means a head shot only if it is preoccupied staring at something and unlikely to move suddenly. One of my best friends, after I told him for several years to quit taking head shots, put a 12 ga. slug through a nice buck's nasal cavity and knocked him flat, only to have him jump up and not be recovered. It left my buddy sick and he won't talk of taking head shots any more. He is more against it than I am. Also, a deer dies horribly if you shoot the lower jaw off. Think about it. You do what you want, but any .22 or .243 (6mm) simply does not make a big enough "leak hole" for 150# animals. Granted, most well-placed shots will kill them, but sooner or later you will wound one and not get it. I cannot abide that. You do whatever your conscience allows. BTW, ARBen, I also hunt with a bow, but what the [b]hell[/b] is a "taunt string?" I've heard of being screwed to death, but never taunted to death. I learn more stuff here. LOL
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First of all, a head shot must be very perfect to be taken. A neck shot is more forgiving. I have never had a deer take a single step after a head or neck shot. Second, I don't plan on wounding one with a poor shot. By the way, "leak holes" only count when the bullet penetrates straight through the target. A small fast bullet will, depending on design, fragmentate or distabilize and "tumble" thus causing more damage than a simple "leak hole". Third, i liked that taunted to death thing heheheh![:D]
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:19:54 PM EDT
No need for a neck or a head shot, actually. All the deer I've taken with 223 were body shots...just behind the forward shoulder blade. They all went down without taking another step.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:22:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:43:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2001 8:39:32 PM EDT by ARben]
Doesn't it just piss you off when we have to modify our hunting schedule for work!! I didn't get my bow permit simply because I'm afraid I wouldn't do anything else.... hmmmmm.... maybe i better go get my bow permit! Side story: a very close friend of the family was a sniper in 'Nam and continues to use his skills. He uses differant guns, but he only takes neck shots. Oh yeah, he takes neck shots at 250-700 yards! He hunts in Texas where shots go wayyyyy out there. [sniper] edited 'cause I forgot to mention that he does so succesfully!
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 3:18:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2001 3:16:29 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
I resemble that remark: [b]I hear some nuts are using pointy shafts ejected from a taunt string to kill deer![/b] Head or neck w/ 223 for me, The 8-point taken last year was shot through the heart (nothing but aorta and very top of heart left) with Kleingunther 30-06 (150grn. soft nose) which left 1.5" exit hole. Deer dressed about 110-115 lbs and ran almost 80-90 feet on adrenaline before dropping. Deer lost considerable amount of lung and heart parts along the way and with frost on the ground was not problem to find (like a red highway). Just tends to prove how tough they can be to get down, so you'll excuse me if I say some of you fellas must be living right for at 125 grains my broadheads outweigh the 64 grn. Win PowerPoints by almost 2 times and altleast I can depend on complete pass throughs w/ my pointy stick. One of the main reasons for my testing w/ the Win 64 PP is I was not happy w/ the penetration on the doe taken in the neck w/ Nosler 55 grn. Ballistic Tip. True she dropped like a rock, (unlike the 8-point) but I attributed it to shot placement which will always overcome ballistic deficiencies. Mike
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 3:54:04 AM EDT
I used the Winchester 64gr PP last year on hogs about the size of the deer you plan to hunt.One bullet blew through both sides and the other stopped just inder the skin on the off side, after blowing out a 3/4" piece of spine. The recovered bullet was kinda beat up, but held together. As hogs are supposed to be tougher then deer, I think you will be well armed with this load. BTW, I plan to use my AR Carbine on hogs in the bushes again this year, and will also load the 64gr Winchester or the 70gr Speer in my .223 bolt gun and .220 Swift for deer at longer ranges. Don't overlook the 70gr Speer (NOT Hornady, it is too large in diameter) as a game bullet.
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 4:18:00 AM EDT
No problem whatsoever. Especially on those tiny east coast deer. Shot placement is the key. A poorly placed 30 06 is as useless as a .22lr. I have put 4 rounds of 06 into a 270lb deer because he would not give me a decent angle. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 5:53:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: I have taken several deer with 223. As long as they are on the small side and you aren't shooting at over 200 yards, it shouldn't be a problem.
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I agree 100%. I have taken several deer using an AR in the swampy areas of southeast Texas. One shot and they drop. These too were on the small side.
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 5:57:00 AM EDT
Cerberus, Hope you don't mind me asking but: What load are you using for the Win 64PP? Also what twist and barrel length are you shooting? If you read my upper post I'm having some trouble getting sub-moa out to 200yards w/ it and would appreciate any tips on loading. Thanks Mike mike@uei-houston.com
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 6:25:27 AM EDT
More deer are taken with .22's than with ALL OTHER CALIBERS COMBINED. If you don't believe me ask your local Game Warden. It's called poaching. It's everywhere, goes on all year round and .22LR's are the weapon of choice. Arock out.
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 7:34:32 AM EDT
Just make sure of your shot, I used my AR last season in brushy area. 55gr soft points nothing special I bagged two. Now it is all I will use. [sniper]
Link Posted: 10/3/2001 10:27:43 AM EDT
Some years ago there was an article in either American rifleman or Guns about hunting with .223, and more specifically, the 64gr Power Point. Believe the author was Finn Agaard. A single round put the deer down quickly and the round was found fully mushroomed and intact just under the skin on the opposite side. IIRC, the conclusion was that the .223 is acceptable given the proper bullet but that shots should be kept to 100 yards max with very careful shot placement. He also concluded that a little more gun would be a better idea. Pretty much the conventional wisdom. I've only seen one deer shot with a Power Point. Just fell over dead. Bullet exited directly opposite the entrance wound.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 5:46:50 AM EDT
BTT for Cerberus question on loads u are shooting. Mike
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 9:04:04 AM EDT
Will a 1/9 twist bbl stabalize a 64grPP out to 100+ yards? -Jared
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 9:09:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 9:12:59 AM EDT
Grizzly660 check out my post on page 1 for 1/9" groupings at out to 200. Mike
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 12:48:09 PM EDT
Why the hell would you want to? it's not a deer cartridge; there are many better choices. I'd rather have a .30-.30 or .35 REM any day.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:09:00 PM EDT
A .223 will kill deer, or anything for that matter. But I wouldn't consider it for a moment. Not because I don't think it will do the job, but because I want more ass behind my well placed shot. I want to see a big ass hole in the ass end of the wound channel with a lot of blood on the ground to track by, if needed. A .22 makes a small hole and in the thickets of Eastern NC, its awful tough to move around, for Humans anyway. If you are going to hunt big game use a big game caliber. Don't puss around about it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:25:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:35:06 PM EDT
I have a friend who is a hunter and has shot several deer with .223rem. I shot mine with .308win. the average .308 round gets 2600+ foot lbs of energy. WHile the .223 hunting rounds get around 1300 foot lbs energy. This same friend is a physics major and he said that deer with heavy bullet going 2820(.308) fps would more than likely go right through a deer. He is right my 150grain .308 seirra botail soft points go right through out to ranges of 90+yards. He said b/c of this, the deer aborbs .33% to 50% of the energy. However the .223 with soft points or hollow points will stay in the deer b/c it does not carry that type of weight. SO 100% of 1300 foot pounds of energy, is as great as or greater than 33%-50% of 2600 foot pounds of energy. THus the actuall knock-down power of a .308 and .223 are the same out to about 100 yards. The difference for shooting the two rounds is coming when long distances become the challenge. in This case, it is not a hard choice. JUST my .02 -CHuck
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:40:41 PM EDT
I was curious, so I looked up what was legal to use in the Big Game proclamation in Utah. For any big game, this included Elk and Moose, all that is required is a gun that shoots center fire ammunition with expanding bullets. Interesting.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:45:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 2:45:58 PM EDT by ECS]
Originally Posted By Arock: More deer are taken with .22's than with ALL OTHER CALIBERS COMBINED. If you don't believe me ask your local Game Warden. It's called poaching. It's everywhere, goes on all year round and .22LR's are the weapon of choice. Arock out.
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Poaching is what we call shooting deer with any 22 cal rifles here in Va also. "Rifles used for deer or bear must be .23 caliber or larger." I have personally watched deer slowly die after shot with 22 cal weapons.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:51:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 2:48:58 PM EDT by cerberus]
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: Cerberus, Hope you don't mind me asking but: What load are you using for the Win 64PP? Also what twist and barrel length are you shooting? If you read my upper post I'm having some trouble getting sub-moa out to 200yards w/ it and would appreciate any tips on loading. Thanks Mike mike@uei-houston.com
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Sorry for the delay, Mike. I loaded the Win 64's over 25grs AA-2230, and some over 27grs Win 748. Nothing magic about either load, and to be honest I don't even remember testing them for extreme accuracy beyond sighting in the rifle. I hunt hogs in areas where 100yds is a really long shot and 10-50yds more typical. I was shooting a 20" Colt HBAR 1x7, and will use the same loads in my Bushmaster 16" HBCAR 1x9. They actually shoot better in the AR's than they do in my 1x14 Ruger .220 Swift. Go figure... You must remember that this bullet is made up as a game bullet, not a match bullet. In my experience with it I don't think it's reasonable to expect sub-MOA groups with it, at any range, nor is it neccessary. It does shoot well for it's intended use. For what my opinion is worth, I disagree with the guys who say "head shots only", not cause they are wrong, but because head and neck shots can be tricky. There is lots of head and neck, but very little of the important stuff you [b][i]must[/b][/i] hit to get a solid kill. Much better to put an expanding bullet into the heart/lung area. It is a larger and more forgiving target, more accessible at some odd angle when the deer or pig just won't cooperate, and quite deadly. Nothing is going very far with blood filling one or both lungs. I can email you some photos of some pretty impressive pigs taken by an Australian friend of mine using a .223 and .220 Swift with 50 and 55 grain bullets. The .223 is practically the National Caliber of Choice for the Australian kangaroo hunter, and the 'roos are bigger and tougher than our deer. They use 55gr soft points mostly, and don't seem to have a problem. He shoots the kangaroos (they are a serious menace over there) to use as pig bait, and probably gets in more shooting in a month than I will see in a year. His hog count for September was 21, plus some scrub bulls and a water buffalo. He used his .270 and .300 on the Bulls and buffalo, and the photos are neat. Let me know if you want to see them.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:56:55 PM EDT
BTT for Mike
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 3:19:32 AM EDT
BTT for wessono: cerberus post above seems to indicate that your 20" 1/7" twist gun will shoot the 64grn Win PP so maybe you should disreguard my comments that 1/7 was possibly too fast. Thanks for the reply on load cerberus. MIke
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