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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 9/28/2001 8:36:59 AM EDT
I'm looking to buy a FAL or STG 58 and from various forums have narrowed it down to a DSA or IMBEL M444. Why would YOU choose one over the other. Pros and cons of both ?? Thanks bowhuntr
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 1:25:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2001 1:25:48 PM EDT by Stg44]
The DSA. Why? It is made from the Caddy of Fal's. The M444 is Imbel on an Imbel receiver, with Hesse parts. Hesse, as in crapola. Then you have the folks at IMI who assemble the M444. Not always known to be a major leap ahead of Century Arms Int. The kits seem to be good, some wear and tear on the furniture possibly, but otherwise in very good shape. The DSA Stg58A is built on the DSA type II receiver from an excellent Stg58 kit. It is assembled by folks who are known for quality. They use DSA parts to meet compliance, not Hesse. The type II or 2 is the correct receiver for the Stg. Dealer cost are about $750 to $900, so if you shop around you can get a deal. Not a lot more than the M444. I do prefer the humpback stock over the Stg buttstock. www.humpbackstocks.com and you can get a US made replacement. Go to the FalFiles www.fnfal.com and read up. BTW I have a Sar48 which is an Imbel. Good rifle, but not as slick as an Stg.
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 1:31:44 PM EDT
I vote for DSA STG58A Parts gun, it's almost a STEAL! [img]http://www.dsarms.com/images/ds_sa58kit1.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 1:47:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2001 1:47:11 PM EDT by M4]
DSA......no other FAL comes close. And they're made right here in the U.S.A. Support American business, and own the finest FAL available. [url]www.dsarms.com[/url] [img]www.dsarms.com/images/sa58mini.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 2:07:03 PM EDT
Bowhuntr, DSA has a fine reputation for building a great FAL. I don't think you would go wrong getting an StG58A, unless you don't like the non-functional "barrel weight" that they put on it. Fortunately if you order one, through your FFL, you can request that they substitute that "thing" for one of their functional muzzle breaks. I think the only major problems I have with the StG58A is it's furniture. The stock has a high comb which makes it more difficult to use the iron sights. Swapping it out for a humpback stock greatly improves things. In addition, the metal handguards are notorious for heating up and becoming uncomfortable except for in cold winter temps where that would be an asset. Just keep shooting. Swapping out the handguards for synthetics cures that problem, or you can wear oven mitts to guard against burned hands. These furniture issues adds to the cost of the StG58A to fix them. I can't "disagree" more with Stg44 regarding the IAI M-444. I have an M-444 (one of the first models). The ONLY Hesse parts on the M444 is the FC group (trigger, hammer & sear). I have had absolutely NO problems with the FC group on my M444. My M444 was put together just fine. I've seen the more recently made M-444's and they are even nicer plus they have an improved muzzle brake. There is absolutely NO comparison between the folks at IAI and the poor reputation of Century Arms Int. The M444 parts were little used by their previous S.American owners but sometimes the furniture does show some wear. All I swapped out was the handguards (the stock was fine)and gained an additional US part. Swap out the gas piston for a DSA piston and you can use any surplus mag. The bottom line is that both the StG58A and the M444 are great FALs. Both guns are not perfect & require a few reasonable modifications to make them better. I know because I have an StG (smith built) and the M444 (the recent production guns are even better). Those are my experiences and opinions. Good luck in your selection. Regards, Talyn PS: Hi RRotz!
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 2:22:27 PM EDT
I like the workmanship better on the STG58s than on the Imbel-built FALs. Just nicer looking.
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 3:06:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Talyn: Bowhuntr, DSA has a fine reputation for building a great FAL. I don't think you would go wrong getting an StG58A, unless you don't like the non-functional "barrel weight" that they put on it. Fortunately if you order one, through your FFL, you can request that they substitute that "thing" for one of their functional muzzle breaks. I think the only major problems I have with the StG58A is it's furniture. The stock has a high comb which makes it more difficult to use the iron sights. Swapping it out for a humpback stock greatly improves things. In addition, the metal handguards are notorious for heating up and becoming uncomfortable except for in cold winter temps where that would be an asset. Just keep shooting. Swapping out the handguards for synthetics cures that problem, or you can wear oven mitts to guard against burned hands. These furniture issues adds to the cost of the StG58A to fix them. I can't "disagree" more with Stg44 regarding the IAI M-444. I have an M-444 (one of the first models). The ONLY Hesse parts on the M444 is the FC group (trigger, hammer & sear). I have had absolutely NO problems with the FC group on my M444. My M444 was put together just fine. I've seen the more recently made M-444's and they are even nicer plus they have an improved muzzle brake. There is absolutely NO comparison between the folks at IAI and the poor reputation of Century Arms Int. The M444 parts were little used by their previous S.American owners but sometimes the furniture does show some wear. All I swapped out was the handguards (the stock was fine)and gained an additional US part. Swap out the gas piston for a DSA piston and you can use any surplus mag. The bottom line is that both the StG58A and the M444 are great FALs. Both guns are not perfect & require a few reasonable modifications to make them better. I know because I have an StG (smith built) and the M444 (the recent production guns are even better). Those are my experiences and opinions. Good luck in your selection. Regards, Talyn PS: Hi RRotz!
View Quote
Heyya Talyn! Those DSA Stoll MB's were BATF approved, so you can take off that non-functioning muzzle weight and slap either a Tapco or DSA brake on! WOOOHOOO!
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 3:13:25 PM EDT
RRotz, I aggree with you, I just think those muzzle weights are butt ugly. Is that thing welded on? For a muzzle weight I'd go with gunplumbers' model. I wonder if you got one from GP and sent it to DSA if they'd put it on. BTW, the metal work on the StG IS much better. My StG is my pride and joy, but I shoot my M-444 more. Talyn
Link Posted: 9/28/2001 4:39:46 PM EDT
Talyn, you disagree with me, then you say what I said. They use Hesse fire control parts, as well as Hesse Muzzlebrake. Also the furniture can be a bit beat up, like I said. If you read the FalFiles, you will see a number of folks upset with the workmanship of the M444 they bought. Some are great, some ok, and some have problems. Kinda like CAI? I have not read one post bitching about the Stg58A from DSA though. And the recognized best American parts are from DSA, not Hesse. I said the Stg needs a humpback stock, and Penguin sells them. (see the web address?) Also Penguin is coming out with a set of green furniture shortly. It ought to be great, if the current buttstock they make is any indication. So, for not much more, you can have a Caddy. Or you can have a Chevy. Me, I'll go with the Caddy everytime. DSA makes the finest FAL parts and rifles.
Link Posted: 9/29/2001 10:55:32 AM EDT
Stg44, Calm down now. I've been on the FALfiles quite a long time and I'm well aware of the comparison discussions. We agreed and didn't. I didn't say what you said on a couple of points. Your labeling of certain parts insinuated that one could expect problems with Hesse parts. Quote... "Hesse as in crapola". My "actual" experience with a M-444 indicates that they're not a problem. Do you have an M-444? From your tone I doubt it, thereby no hands on experience with Hesse parts in FALs. I'll give you the furniture comment, but you compared the assembly of M-444's to CAI guns. No comparison there. CAI "Franken FALs" are well known to be put together rather hastily, and if you've been on the FAL files very long you know that vendors like "FWRA" praise the M-444 has far as workmanship and quality, especially the more recent ones. There's nothing wrong with my M-444 which was early production. It's been a looong time since I heard of any problems about M-444's, but I have read a few about STG58A's. I'm sure they were taken care of by DSA, as IAI has done with guns needing some fixing. Nobody has a 100% record. DSA does make the best AMERICAN FALs out there, and I have pointed out my dislikes, albeit minor and coorectable. For someone else looking at options I'm not going to slam other good alternatives. DSA may be the Caddy of US FALs, and I may have a M-444 Chevy of FALs (actually I'm a FORD guy), but the Mercedes Benz of FALs is my ARS StG. Both work great for me. As always, my experiences and opinions of course. Regards, Talyn
Link Posted: 9/29/2001 11:55:37 AM EDT
OK I like the Imbel receiver Which means IAI RRotz,arene't you supposed to be at the FAL board. I am still waiting on my refund from Jen but am starting to grt pissed. She has had my $449 since March. Has given three dates and none have been met. Now no response to email in last three weeks. I think I have been fucked. cpermd FAL_Odor there
Link Posted: 9/29/2001 2:28:02 PM EDT
The DSA is much a much better gun compared to the 444. Of course you could always build your own FAL it probably wont be as pretty but you could get two for the price of a DSA more or less... Ropes
Link Posted: 9/29/2001 5:10:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2001 5:16:26 PM EDT by Stg44]
Talyn, I am a senior member on the FalFiles. (falaloholic #247)I have seen a fair number of complaints about the M444 that I have not seen on the DSA. The IAI complaints seem to mirror the CAI complaints, bolt hold open inactivated, can't zero. As I said, even some of the CAI rifles were good, some mediorce, and some plain bad. As to Hesse parts. Compared to DSA or original parts they are rough appearing. Are they heat treated like DSA? I have seen various Hesse rifles, and have worked on a Hesse HAR15, they are crap. ( I am a Colt certified armorer) They are the worst AR lower I have ever seen, and I have seen some crap in the 27 years I have been using and building M16/AR15 rifles. The Hesse Fal requires substantial work to smooth it out to what a DSA or Enterprise would be. Even one of the Angry Beavers from CAI's work line says Hesse is only now starting to smooth out it's gear. (fal files post about a month ago) No, I don't own an M444. I have an original Imbel, the Sar48. I thought it would be kinda redundandt to get another identical rifle. The M444 is not junk. It is however, inferior to the Stg58A, hell my Sar48 is rough compared to the DSA rifle. M444's are about $750 now, that's what FedOrd sells the Stg58A for. The M444 is drying up, they only bought 2000 Imbel receivers.
Link Posted: 9/30/2001 2:51:25 PM EDT
Stg44, I've heard plenty of stories about Hesse guns & parts too. When I heard that the M-444's had Hesse FC parts in them I was apprehensive. However, like I've said, I had no problems with mine and my M-444 has been reliable and has a good trigger pull. I enjoy shooting it. I am not defending Hesse guns, HAR's or FAL's. Considering Hesse's poor reputation with other guns I would not recommend getting a full-blown Hesse gun. However, I have no problems with the parts they put in M-444's. Maybe they did a better job on their contract parts for IAI. You may dislike M444's for your reasons, but I have seen plenty of good reports on M444's. It's all about choices sir & M444's are still a good option in the mid-price range. Regarding AR15's I prefer Colt pre-bans myself, and I'm also a senior member of the FALfiles. To each his own. Regards, Talyn
Link Posted: 9/30/2001 3:07:00 PM EDT
This is slightly off topic. Are the DSA STG 58 parts guns a limited item or does DSA have an endless supply? I really hope I don't miss out. Either way, I guess I could always fork up the extra money for an all DSA FAL.
Link Posted: 9/30/2001 3:17:51 PM EDT
The StG58A's are primarily built from Austrian kits plus DSA's own US parts & receiver. My guess is the cheaper, but still fine (StG44) 58As will last as long as the parts kits hold out. DSA's SA58's (their top-of-the-line models) are mostly new US parts, receivers & barrels. Expect to pay $300-500 more than their kit guns. Hope this helps. Talyn
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