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Posted: 9/25/2001 4:19:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 4:35:40 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
NYC, airports and crop dusters were soft targets. Two of them were hit. We were lucky that that was all. Now we are vigilent about these "targets". F-15's orbit Manhattan, like guards at an empty bank vault. The soft targets are now "hard". Our enemies are not stupid. They anticipated our reactions and our added securities. Their next targets will once again be "soft targets". Who knows what they will be? They do. They knew years ago, when the formulated this plan. If we don't focus all of our energies on defeating them, the next "tragedy" could make the WTC attack look puny. If you are worried NOW about losing our freedoms, in the wake of the WTC attack, just imagine the reaction if a MILLION Americans die in the next one. If we truly value our individual freedoms, we must ALL realize this. We cannot be so myopic and self-absorbed that we don't see the forest through the trees. NOW is the time for all of our energies to be behind defeating our enemies -FOR THE SAKE OF OUR LIBERTIES. Remember, if one weapon of mass-destruction is unleashed upon us, we lose ALL FREEDOM. Searches, ID Cards, Check Points, you name it. Preventing this MUST be the number one priority of anyone who wants to remain free.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 4:36:15 AM EDT
Major, my wife works directly across the street from the Y-12 plant in Oak Ridge. This is effectively ground-zero of one of the "top 5" targets in the U.S.A., and even though ground security is strong (thank you D.O.E) all it would take would be a crop duster filled with diesel fuel in the hopper and some explosives in the cockpit to effectively create a huge amount of fallout (from the waste awaiting disposal)- and depending on the prevailing winds could have this effect (1 mil. + casualties). This is not news to anyone that could pull off a 9/11/01 Black Tuesday, and would effectively stop production of all weapons-grade fissionables. At the end of October, I go back on active duty, after the knee heals a little more. She will continue to work here, as both of us feel that to do any different would be caving to the terrorists. I for one adhere to Ben Franklin's adage about those willing to exchange freedoms for security deserving niether... Don Out
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 4:45:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 4:45:04 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
I agree with you and Ben. Just remember, though, if a million die, it's all lost. Ben couldn't have imagined two things, though: 1. The potential for destruction that exists today. 2. The ability and power of our government to end our freedoms, if such destruction is wrought. Sadly, the same Rambo/Wacko/Wannabes that looked forward to a UN invasion, now look forward to the destruction our nation, by our enemies and the ensuing chaos. They want to shoot their neighbors. You know that these nuts exists.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 4:51:55 AM EDT
[size=2]... Just yesterday, Bin Laden's Al-Qaida organization issued a new statement warning Washington against attacks against him or Afghanistan.
"Wherever there are Americans and Jews, they will be targeted,"
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said a statement faxed to news organizations in Pakistan, Islamabad, in the name of Al-Qaida's chief military commander, Naseer Ahmed Mujahed.[/size=2] ... yeah, this would be a fine time to attempt to disarm the law abiding citizens of the USA.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 4:57:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: I agree with you and Ben. Just remember, though, if a million die, it's all lost. Ben couldn't have imagined two things, though: 1. The potential for destruction that exists today. 2. The ability and power of our government to end our freedoms, if such destruction is wrought. Sadly, the same Rambo/Wacko/Wannabes that looked forward to a UN invasion, now look forward to the destruction our nation, by our enemies and the ensuing chaos. They want to shoot their neighbors. You know that these nuts exists.
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Of course! I agree completely, and those of us that think rationally (most of the time) know that the best, most cost-effective solution would be organized firearms training, and an Israeli-style "Homeland Defense" militia model, carrying issue military arms as has been discussed on other threads. Same logic as CCW and the relational drop in violent crime rates. Constitutionally, and contrary to what many here believe (flame retardant suit on), it IS the job of the Fed to protect from enemies both Foreign and Domestic. Arming and training the populace (with some restrictions), if presented in a rational manner to our elected leaders AND our fellow Citizens, would neatly sidestep the need to restrict or negate our freedoms.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:02:49 AM EDT
Yes, and I also liked Benjamin Netanyahu [sp.?] last night on FoxNews channel, especially his comments on Freedom, and the fact that we are all (Israel and USA) Americans following the spineless attacks and in the face of those to come. I have been on edge since this began, knowing that close friends are in country, and the Division Ready Brigade is reportedly on the ground in a hostile environment (Pakistan)... Airborne!
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:06:34 AM EDT
Restricting gun ownership will do do nothing to stop terrorism. We all know this. Those who suggest this as a solution to the attacks, are merely beating the same drum that they have always beaten. AND to use this attack, to only further pursue your previous goals, is vile. WE, on the other hand, must not find ourselves guilty of the same offense. Don't use the attack as a means to pursue your usual (though noble) goals. Look long term. Don't just guard the henhouse and let the Farmhouse to burn to the ground.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:22:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 5:24:20 AM EDT by 11H1P]
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Restricting gun ownership will do do nothing to stop terrorism. We all know this. Those who suggest this as a solution to the attacks, are merely beating the same drum that they have always beaten. AND to use this attack, to only further pursue your previous goals, is vile. WE, on the other hand, must not find ourselves guilty of the same offense. Don't use the attack as a means to pursue your usual (though noble) goals. Look long term. Don't just guard the henhouse and let the Farmhouse to burn to the ground.
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Again I agree on all points. I believe that the populace should be proactive in home defense, and I am going back to the 82d (Infantry) to do my part regarding the eradication of an enemy that is, rightly according to the Commander in Chief, at war with this country. If other countries help us, fine, if not they need to keep out of the way (Germany, Italy, and France are waffling as usual). P.S. in my other posts, I have stated that I started this journey back to active duty early in this year, well before these horrid attacks occured. I feel that it is my DUTY to this country, its Constitution, and its Citizens, and feel that this is a small way for me to pay for the Freedoms that I revere... Don out
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:34:18 AM EDT
The next targets will all be "gun-free zones." IF I were a terrorist, my next targets would be schools all across the country.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:40:04 AM EDT
We should be so lucky if their targets are that small(God help us that I can even say that). Guys, they want us ALL dead. They want to use nukes or Bio. Would they have looked into renting a crop-duster if they didn't have the agents to deliver? Maybe. If they did so in anticipation of the post-attack scrutiny and discoveries. It could be misinformation... ....again, we should be so lucky.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:46:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Guys, they want us ALL dead. .
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True, but these aren't dumb people. They are gonna go where they will receive NO resistance, like in an airplane cabin (prior to Sept 11) If they had nuke capability, and the will to use it, they would have done so already. Same with bio weapons.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:48:32 AM EDT
Why, then, the cropduster? -AND they may get these capabilities in the future...
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:48:53 AM EDT
Remember also that, per Fox News Channel as of last night, there were "Middle Eastern pilots" in the jump seats of dozens of other airliners when FAA grounded all flights. Major-Murphy is right- terrorists are looking for spectacular "photo op" targets with high visibility and high body counts, and have in mind the disruption to the S.O.P. of business, finance, and military functioning. Schools would not likely be a primary target, as they would further strengthen our resolve without the above-mentioned demoralizing effects.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:55:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Why, then, the cropduster? -AND they may get these capabilities in the future...
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Yes, they may. But like any criminal, there is little that can be done to PREVENT a criminal activity from occurring. Especially not by passing a law. I'm all for planning for the worst, but I refuse to WORRY about what MAY happen. Give me ACTION, and leave worry behind. About all that can be done is what Bush et al is doing. Go after the "criminals." My take on the crop dusters was that they were gonna load them with explosives and fly them into other targets.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:59:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 11H1P: Major-Murphy is right- terrorists are looking for spectacular "photo op" targets with high visibility and high body counts, and have in mind the disruption to the S.O.P. of business, finance, and military functioning.
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I agree with this, and is why i doubt they would use chemical / biological weapons. Theya re looking for SPECTACULAR results. Chem / bio weapons are too much silent killers, without the "made for TV news" appeal.
Schools would not likely be a primary target, as they would further strengthen our resolve without the above-mentioned demoralizing effects.
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I disagree with this. Just as they were aware of Americas anti-gun bent, they went to a "gun free" airliner as their first target. Theya re also aware of Americas "for the children" mindset, allowing ANYTHING "for the children." America becomes all weak and spineless when it comes "to the children." I believe they think that if they start slaughtering our children, America will capitulate.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:04:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I believe they think that if they start slaughtering our children, America will capitulate.
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You are wrong. There is no such thing as "capitulating" in this war. To capitulate means to die. (I also seriously doubt that Osama's men sit around and worry about American Gunowners spoiling their evil plots. This is what a meant about us being self-absorbed.)
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:08:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 6:10:28 AM EDT by 11H1P]
Originally Posted By garandman: snip I disagree with this. Just as they were aware of Americas anti-gun bent, they went to a "gun free" airliner as their first target. Theya re also aware of Americas "for the children" mindset, allowing ANYTHING "for the children." America becomes all weak and spineless when it comes "to the children." I believe they think that if they start slaughtering our children, America will capitulate.
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IF they have any understanding of how we truly feel (not the media version) and are just trying to prevoke us I agree. If they judge our sentiment, they may do this for the reasons you stated. Either way, the whole world HAS to know that if the children are targeted specifically then the gloves not only come off but get thrown away- and only whatever god they supposedly worship will be able to console them. They have to be watching the news reports of the reaction by our (to them) "gun-hating" society and the current run on weapons and ammo... They truly do just want us all dead. P.S. gotta go work on the knee for a few hrs- great discussion! be back soon
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:11:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: I agree with you and Ben. Just remember, though, if a million die, it's all lost. Ben couldn't have imagined two things, though: 1. The potential for destruction that exists today. 2. The ability and power of our government to end our freedoms, if such destruction is wrought. Sadly, the same Rambo/Wacko/Wannabes that looked forward to a UN invasion, now look forward to the destruction our nation, by our enemies and the ensuing chaos. They want to shoot their neighbors. You know that these nuts exists.
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So go to http://www.e-thepeople.com/, find the Petition "Use the Militia, Preserve our Rights", sign it, and join the discussion. Richardson
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:13:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 11H1P: IF they have any understanding of how we truly feel (not the media version) and are just trying to prevoke us I agree. If they judge our sentiment, they may do this for the reasons you stated. Either way, the whole world HAS to know that if the children are targeted specifically then the gloves not only come off but get thrown away- and only whatever god they supposedly worship will be able to console them. They have to be watching the news reports of the reaction by our (to them) "gun-hating" society and the current run on weapons and ammo... They truly do just want us all dead.
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I agree with most everything here....EXCEPT the last statement. The willingness to simply write these people of as insane madmen whose only goal is the destruction of life is injurious to our ability to fight against them. Even Sun Tzu advised to "Know your enemy. Know his strengths. Know his weaknesses." The desire to paint these terrorists as the devil incarnate prevents us from "knowing them." This all goes back to my initial belief that their PRIMARY motivation is to get the USA to STOP meddling in their affairs.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:13:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 6:17:35 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
Guys, 6 THOUSAND Americans were killed. I don't need them to be children to galvanize my resolve. I hope that the rest of America doesn't, either.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:16:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Guys, 6 THOUSAND Americans were killed. I don't need them to children to galvanize my resolve. I hope that the rest of America doesn't, either.
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My point is that they THINK killing our children will WEAKEN our resolve. America gets all weak kneed and jelly-spined when it comes "to the children." Of course, I'm pretty sure they are WRONG about what effect killing our children would have on our resolve. But their perception is that killing children would weaken our resolve. And "perception IS reality."
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:33:28 AM EDT
Of course these people don't give a damn about American gun owners foiling their plans. We likely factor in just as little as non gun-owners. I mean, honestly: What can gun owners do? Nothing. There is no mass invasion, no occupying army. Unless we want to practice head shots on every single unsavory character in America, we remain just as harmless to them as anyone else. What could a gun owner do? Shoot down a plane? What about the unarmed gun owner who is on the plane? The same two choices as everyone else: Fight back or sit in your seat. That's a personal choice, not a gun rights motivated one. These people are not afraid of the American public. They're not afraid of the American Military. They're not afraid of GW, nor Colin Powell, nor the united backing of the world. The only thing that affects these people is faith and hope. That's what we have to target. Killing their families, nuking their countries... These things don't demoralize them any more than it does us. They would become just as galvanized as any of us Americans have become in the past weeks. They are trained, brainwashed, and bred to believe in a cause. Just as we are. Only when that cause becomes completely unattainable; only when We, the People, still stand tall after our fellows, our women, our children, our friends, have died in sacrifice for the ideals of this country, will they give up. Only when blood and tears have been shed over our losses, only when they have done their worst, and looked out from their caves, dens, and cowardly hiding places to still see America meddling in their affairs, will they realize that it is all pointless. Only after their friends, comrades, leaders, planners, have been taken, arrested, killed, and even tortured... Only when everything that they fight for is gone, will they give up. In many ways, to know this enemy is to know ourselves. We don't give up that easily, because we are a people of ideals, of dreams, and of freedoms. They don't give up because they are a people of ideals, of dreams... and of fanatacism. That is the difference that must be exploited. We all move away from home one day, and wake up to the real world, realizing just how vulnerable we are. It's time we give these fuckers a wake-up call, and have them realize that these penny-ante goals are not based in relaity, and do to them what would need be done to us, to make them stop. To make them pay. Remember the words of our national anthem, my brothers and sisters. Remember how valiant and hard the British fought to destroy our flag. The very symbol of our forefathers ideas, desires, dreams. Remember how we kept it up. This time, we again have to keep it up. But not just keep it up. Rub it in their cowardly faces. Anyway. I'll get off my soapbox, now. [;)]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:42:11 AM EDT
You are the man.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:53:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Guys, 6 THOUSAND Americans were killed. I don't need them to children to galvanize my resolve. I hope that the rest of America doesn't, either.
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My point is that they THINK killing our children will WEAKEN our resolve. America gets all weak kneed and jelly-spined when it comes "to the children." Of course, I'm pretty sure they are WRONG about what effect killing our children would have on our resolve. But their perception is that killing children would weaken our resolve. And "perception IS reality."
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G-man, I was not trying to imply that they think like us, just that they do not care one whit about how we react. My wife grew up in the Terhan AO, was evacuated in 1979. I know several Americans of Arabic descent (several of whom I served with), and per Sun Tsu, know that our very existance and way of life is a threat to theirs. Our support of the area's only free nation (Israel), which they know will not end, justifies to them our total destruction. Without us, Israel eventually falls. Though I agree that the removal of the USA in Middle East affairs is probably one goal, I posit that, to them, the only way to ensure this end is removing any possibility of our involvement. Remember, Israel is only "Little Satan", we are "Big Satan". My brother, this is bigger than we know.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 8:12:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 11H1P: Our support of the area's only free nation (Israel), which they know will not end, justifies to them our total destruction.
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Israel ain't as free as we have been lead to believe. My sister-in-law went over there on a brief mission trip. She distributed gospel tracts at the risk of GOING TO JAIL. Israel thinks our First Amendment is BUNK. At least, that is the weay they run THEIR country. They are operating a religious dictatorship over there. What cheeses me is my Christian brethern supporting a nation that rejects and mocks my Saviour, Jesus Christ. Don't make sense.
Remember, Israel is only "Little Satan", we are "Big Satan". .
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Not so. IMO. They have been fighting against Israel for THOUSANDS of years. They have been fighting against us ONLY since we backed Israel, and decided in the last 50 years that they are incapable of managing their own affairs. Imagine how YOU would feel if Saddam Insane wanted to tell YOU how to run your affairs, and had the military might to do it. You (and I ) would be pretty pissed too. Anywho, your assumption (above) needs to be tested BEFORE we engage the ENTIRE Middle East in war. I would MUCH prefer we STOP ALL interference in the Middle East. Then, if bin Laden / Saddam keep up their jihad against the US, then I would know we are IN NO WAY provoking them, and would feel compeltely justified in realeasing all hell against them. Just remember - don't expect them to NOT be pissed about us interfering with their lives if WE would be pissed about them interfering with OUR lives.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 8:18:28 AM EDT
You are correct garandman. I also consider the fact that for thousands of years, the continuing warfare was of a religious nature, and only in the last 53 years has it turned to a more political focus. I feel that this is the key difference. As to Israel, you are correct (My aunt and uncle recently returned from a journey to the Holy Land), but remember also 1) they are at war and 2) at least they have free elections This of course leaves out the differences in societal makeup between our countries, and the fact that the "fundamentalst" Islamic states are truly theocracies. Again, thanks for the great discussion (wish someone around here besides my wife could carry on informed conversations like this!) Don Carter
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 8:19:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 8:57:59 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
It's OK for us to tell them how to live their lives. It's our duty. They are wrong and we are right. The Communists was wrong, and didn't like us saying so. We didn't stop, though. Moral relativism and multi-culturalism (not to be confused with pluralism) is what got us into this mess in the first place. Western thought; logic, reason, justice, rule of law, is best. We can't be ashamed to say this, and say it often. Clerics who don't allow women to be educated or seek medical attention are wrong. They don't know this, so we must tell them. Savages who chop off of childrens' hands in African tribal conflict are wrong. They don't know this, so we must tell them.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 8:57:15 AM EDT
[url]http://msnbc.com/news/632825.asp?0cb=-81c22998[/url] It’s not that the U.S. government was asleep. America’s open borders make tracking terrorists a daunting exercise. NEWSWEEK has learned that the FBI has privately estimated that more than 1,000 individuals—most of them foreign nationals—with suspected terrorist ties are currently living in the United States. “The American people would be surprised to learn how many of these people there are,” says a top U.S. official. Moussaoui almost exactly fits the profile of the suicide hijackers, but he may or may not have been part of the plot. After Moussaoui’s arrest on Aug. 17, U.S. immigration authorities dutifully notified the French (he was a passport holder), who responded 10 days later that Moussaoui was a suspected terrorist who had allegedly traveled to Osama bin Laden’s training camps in Afghanistan. Ten days may seem like a leisurely pace for investigators racing against time to foil terrorist plots, but in the real world of international cooperation, 10 days “c’est rapide,” a French official told NEWSWEEK. Fast but, in the new age of terror, not fast enough.
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