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Posted: 9/24/2001 3:27:53 PM EDT
What have I been saying all along? Sheeple before the WTC incident and still sheeple now only they are calling themselves "patriots", waiving the flag with still no concept as to what is in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. ---------------------- Poll: Third of New Yorkers support internment camps for some By MARC HUMBERT Associated Press Writer September 24, 2001 ALBANY, N.Y. -- [b]One third of New Yorkers favor establishing internment camps for "individuals who authorities identify as being sympathetic to terrorist causes," according to a poll from the Siena College Research Institute.[/b] Fifty percent of those surveyed for the statewide poll said they were opposed to that idea while 15 percent had no opinion. The telephone poll of 610 New York state residents over age 18 was conducted from Sept. 12, the day after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon, through Sept. 19. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points. The poll found 75 percent of respondents felt terrorist attacks would continue and 40 percent said they were very concerned they or family members could become victims. Forty-six percent said the attacks make it less likely they will use commercial flights even though two-thirds of those surveyed said they believe the airlines can be made safe from terrorism. Ninety percent said undercover, armed security guards should be put on the planes. Internment camps have been controversial since World War II when the United States ordered thousands of Japanese-Americans into such facilities. [b]Douglas Lonnstrom, director of the research institute, said that given that World War II experience he found it "startling" that 34 percent of those polled supported the creation of new internment camps.[/b] Lonnstrom said he didn't know if those questioned equated the phrase "sympathetic to terrorist causes" to Arab-Americans. [b]But James Zogby, president of the Washington-based Arab American Institute, said, "You have to be very careful how you go down this road of defining sympathies. I think it's dangerous." Zogby said creation of such camps would be unconstitutional[/b], but that he wasn't surprised by the poll's findings. "In the current context, when you ask that question you're going to get that kind of response," Zogby said. "I would say if you asked people, `Should terrorist sympathizers have their toenails forcibly plucked from their toes?', you would probably get something akin to that."
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 3:43:41 PM EDT
I'm all for "Internment Camps". Let's start with "Berkeley and Cambridge"
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:13:22 PM EDT
After the suitcase nukes go off, will you still oppose deporting all Arabs and detaining those who don't leave?
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:20:45 PM EDT
Would it have been prudent to intern Nazi sympathizers during WWII?
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:40:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 5:40:32 PM EDT by TimeToFeedTheHogs]
Originally Posted By raven: After the suitcase nukes go off, will you still oppose deporting all Arabs and detaining those who don't leave?
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I was thinking more along the lines of chemical or biological weapons. Would most Americans still be in favor of open borders and such? I think we will experience terrorism again, hopefully not on the scale we saw two weeks ago. They might not have been able to use crop dusters but I'm just a bit fearful that they already have the CB weapons in the States they planned on using in the dusters. On another note: I have a sinking feeling that the "War" on terrorism will go about as well as the "War" on drugs. Terrorism: foreign or domestic Why do you have all those primers, Comrade? I'd like to see your National ID Card please.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:42:22 PM EDT
One one hand, I have to say that what kind of person even takes the time to call and give his opinion on this type of poll? I am a New Yorker directly involved with this tragedy, and I would even stop to talk about someone with an issue as stupid as this. This is America. And I am in no way a liberal by ANY means. On the other hand, the neighborhood which I work in has a large Muslim population who were out in the streets celebrating,singing and cheering when the towers came down........ It is obvious that something must be done, but is an internment camp the way to do it? I think not. If you are found to have supported the terrorists or funded them or even knew of what was about to happen and didnt tell anyone, then YOU SHOULD BE SHOT WITHOUT A TRIAL, just as if you had committed the heinous act yourself. I think that one way to go is to bring back Immigration Police in LARGE NUMBERS. If you are a sympathizer (supporters are shot dead), then you shouldnt be making money or even living in this GREAT COUNTRY, YOU SHOULD LEAVE THIS PLACE IF YOU DONT LIKE IT!!!! I think that immigration should be paying regular visits to these neighborhoods where sympathizers (nice spelling) are living and putting pressure on the community. If they dont like the harassment, they should leave and not be allowed to come back, not even for a vacation. Its time to wake up and realize that maybe we have too many civil liberties, maybe we are too tolerant of certain activities/peoples. Flag Burners should be locked up. Wanna make a statement?? Hope youre willing to pay the price....
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:45:12 PM EDT
Well well
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:51:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 5:55:58 PM EDT by ARlady]
Originally Posted By Hunduh: If you are found to have supported the terrorists or funded them or even knew of what was about to happen and didnt tell anyone, then YOU SHOULD BE SHOT WITHOUT A TRIAL, just as if you had committed the heinous act yourself.
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and what name would you like to give this country because United States of America would no longer apply? seriously, though. i see absolutely no reason for internments camps. if they're not U.S. citizens, send them back to country of origin. if they are U.S. citizens, they deserve and have a right to demand full due process of the law. no illegal incarceration, no shooting without a trial, innocent until proven guilty. i'm not exactly thrilled that this might mean a few real terrorists will remain because they have attained citizenship, but i would rather deal with them than tear down and bastardize everything this country stands for. whether we like it or not, the freedoms we brag so freely about technically belong to every human on this earth, unless of course, you believe that the governments grant rights. and whether we like it or not, our very sacred freedoms will mean that we will be open to such actions. we cannot preserve our freedoms by infringing on those of others.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:51:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 5:54:45 PM EDT by b0ne]
Originally Posted By Hunduh: Its time to wake up and realize that maybe we have too many civil liberties, maybe we are too tolerant of certain activities/peoples. Flag Burners should be locked up. Wanna make a statement?? Hope youre willing to pay the price....
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. Screw you. Oh, yeah, Hamsturbation wanted me to tell you that he said, quote, "Tell him I said he can my ".
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:52:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hunduh: One one hand, I have to say that what kind of person even takes the time to call and give his opinion on this type of poll? I am a New Yorker directly involved with this tragedy, and I would even stop to talk about someone with an issue as stupid as this. This is America. And I am in no way a liberal by ANY means. On the other hand, the neighborhood which I work in has a large Muslim population who were out in the streets celebrating,singing and cheering when the towers came down........ It is obvious that something must be done, but is an internment camp the way to do it? I think not. If you are found to have supported the terrorists or funded them or even knew of what was about to happen and didnt tell anyone, then YOU SHOULD BE SHOT WITHOUT A TRIAL, just as if you had committed the heinous act yourself. I think that one way to go is to bring back Immigration Police in LARGE NUMBERS. If you are a sympathizer (supporters are shot dead), then you shouldnt be making money or even living in this GREAT COUNTRY, YOU SHOULD LEAVE THIS PLACE IF YOU DONT LIKE IT!!!! I think that immigration should be paying regular visits to these neighborhoods where sympathizers (nice spelling) are living and putting pressure on the community. If they dont like the harassment, they should leave and not be allowed to come back, not even for a vacation. Its time to wake up and realize that maybe we have too many civil liberties, maybe we are too tolerant of certain activities/peoples. Flag Burners should be locked up. Wanna make a statement?? Hope youre willing to pay the price....
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See... this is the kind of shit that worries me. All I hear on tv is how peaceful Islam is, yet we keep hearing stuff like "...the neighborhood which I work in has a large Muslim population who were out in the streets celebrating,singing and cheering when the towers came down........" I would like to be benevolent and go on and on about what it is to be an American. But when people cheer as our citizens die horrible deaths, I just say "fuck 'em." Hard to tell the good guys (if there are really any good guys) from the bad. Should we just kill them all before they kill all of us, or should we welcome them with open arms while they murder our people? ARnSC
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:57:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hunduh: If you are found to have supported the terrorists or funded them or even knew of what was about to happen and didnt tell anyone, then YOU SHOULD BE SHOT WITHOUT A TRIAL, just as if you had committed the heinous act yourself. WITHOUT A TRIAL? The fact that we give fair trials is what seperates us from say, Afghanastan. Why don't we piss on the consitution and shred the american flag while we're at it?
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:05:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 6:13:20 PM EDT by b0ne]
Originally Posted By ARnSC: I would like to be benevolent and go on and on about what it is to be an American. But when people cheer as our citizens die horrible deaths, I just say "fuck 'em." Hard to tell the good guys (if there are really any good guys) from the bad. Should we just kill them all before they kill all of us, or should we welcome them with open arms while they murder our people? ARnSC
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Too bad you seem to be forgetting that not all muslims feel the same way. On the other hand, there are people in other countries who cheered right along with 'em. Are you going to throw Mexicans in internment camps? Africans? Colombians? Chinese? Hell, while you're at it, why don't you just build a big damn fence around the country and call the whole thing an internment camp. That'll take care of 'em all right. Shoot 'em without a trial? Jesus christ almighty, that's exactly what they do _over_there_! Maybe we better start singing America, Land of the Guilty Until Proven Innocent and the home of the Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:05:11 PM EDT
Look, Im not one of those liberal fuks that wants to send Osama a fruit basket asking him to please stop picking on us. Im also not one of those little wanna-be hippies singing "give peace a chance" at the scene where all the families are posting pictures of their missing loved ones. As a matter of fact, I lauged when a 40 year old lady (victims mother)kicked that crap outta some 18 year old jackass long haired wanna be 60's hippie who was telling the families of the victims to not be angry. Holding up signs that said "America dont retaliate". I wouldve kicked his ass myself had I been off duty. I wouldve stuffed his sign up his ass. (dont go there...you know what I mean), ok make it stuffed down his throat. Its just that would it be right to just take it out on any old Muslim? I think Bush has made the right decision by taking his time and planning a strategy out, not just making a kneejerk reaction. If on the other hand, we knew exactly who and why and where, then by all means, Go for it and let loose everthing we have on them. But to just bomb so we can say we did something is wrong.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:06:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 6:10:32 PM EDT by Hunduh]
"WITHOUT A TRIAL? The fact that we give fair trials is what seperates us from say, Afghanastan. Why don't we piss on the consitution and shred the american flag while we're at it?"------LIshooter Hey Long Island Shooter, I think that flag burners should be tossed out of this country too. Flag Burning should be illegal. If you hate this place so much, as does Mr. Baldwin, then GET THE HELL OUT!!!!! ps...was what happened to those AMERICANS in the WTC 'fair' as you put it?
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:12:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:14:36 PM EDT
Im happy to see that there are others on this site with 'cooler' heads...
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:14:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: Would it have been prudent to intern Nazi sympathizers during WWII?
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The government did intern German nationals and sympathisers, and they interned Italians, too, in Massachusetts, among other places.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:21:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sweep: Once you start putting Arabs in internment camps, who next? (snip)Die-hard pro 2nd Amendment supporters? ...people who own evil looking guns that will refuse to register or give them up?
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Any gun owner. "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all guns, that way no guns can ever be used to command the party." - --MAO ZEDONG, "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:23:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hunduh: ps...was what happened to those AMERICANS in the WTC 'fair' as you put it?
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no, but is that gonna be your excuse for tossing the Constitution and the belief that all men have inalienable rights? would you so casually take away those rights because of the color of their skin, their religious preference, or even because they are please with the attacks? what laws have they broken simply by agreeing with the terrorists views?
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:30:15 PM EDT
Go read "1984" if you haven't yet. Stop worrying about chem and bio weapons and suitcase nukes. Go watch "Close Encounters" again too. There is a scene where a phony chemical spill/bio attack is used to convince people to leave their homes and board railroad carts. Americans would fall for that in a second! It would be unbelievably easy to round up people and send them off to death camps here in the USA. You just have to motivate them properly. I wonder who they polled? I've always though of NYC was one big "internment camp." 7 out of 10 dentists surveyed choose Crest. Pretty much a no-brainer if you only ask a total of 10 dentists and the choice is between Crest and some off-brand type or maybe just baking soda in water. What this poll really shows is that people will agree to anything if you ask the appropriate question in just the right way. In other words, it's nonsense touted by the media to sell copy.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:30:41 PM EDT
ARlady......innocent until proven guilty?.....like OJ..right?[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:30:49 PM EDT
Who would be next to go into the "camps" for their own "safety"? I can tell you who: those who oppose the unlawful detention of lawfull American Citizens. If we don't stand up for thoses who are innocent now, who will stand up when they come for those of us who have the training whether military, law enforcement, or self-taught civilian? This is a nation of men (no gender discrimination meant), who have self-imposed restrictions on what methods of trial and punishment we can use. The criminal justice system is there to prove who is guilty; mob justice is [b]not[/b] the answer.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:35:39 PM EDT
Whether we like it or not, there will be deportations, and very tight immigration policies very soon, esp. if there is any new terrorist attack on the USA. Anybody who is darker-skinned, speaks with a funny accent, or dresses differently (turban, etc) will feel singled out and will likely go back to where they came from, or somewhere where they feel more comfortable. Sad, really- I know a lot of people like that, who just want to get along and become Americans. Maybe not everybody's vision of how Americans should look, but Americans, nonetheless. I also foresee a huge clamor for an end to political and ethnic sensitivity- the new call will be to assimilate. How well that will work, I'm not sure- they've tried it in France, with mixed results. In Germany, they have historically done the opposite- it is virtually impossible for foreigners and their children to become citizens, effectively freezing them out of the culture and national life. That hasn't worked either. One thing may tip the balance in the favor of the Nativists: the economy. Under- and unemployed Indian and Pakistani professionals are leaving New England in droves, where they had hitherto played a large role in the biotech, communications and computer industries. Too bad- if they and their Middle Eastern counterparts go, they'll all be taking a lot of talent with them back home, talent we sure could use. But- if they don't want to stay, who is to stop them? It's a free country, I'm told...
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:39:18 PM EDT
Mattja, during WW2 even dachshunds experienced discremination. This is no sh*t. I have 2 of them and really got into the history of the breed. I don't know what to do with the middle eastern folks here. I don't think they are all to blame, but I don't think they believe in America the way most of us from here do. They come here and still keep there women oppressed with that silly head gear and I don't want to hear any sh*t about traditional clothing. As for me, I was really mad after the first few days of this tradegdy and wanted to deport all of them. I've cooled down now, but I still won't but anything from an Arab owned store of any kind.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:50:11 PM EDT
I think this whole internment camp business is a disaster for us gunowners, people. Once it becomes acceptable to intern categories of otherwise law-abiding citizens, The Man will get around to US. I think about stuff like this when I go fishing near the old WWII Manzanaar Concentration Camp, I mean Relocation Center. They have a road nearby leading to the abandoned airstrip called "Manz Reward". If we put up with one category of people getting screwed, the day will come when it is our turn.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:56:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Erasmus: I think this whole internment camp business is a disaster for us gunowners, people. Once it becomes acceptable to intern categories of otherwise law-abiding citizens, The Man will get around to US. ... If we put up with one category of people getting screwed, the day will come when it is our turn.
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In some states, it's closer to being our turn than in others. When that time comes, hopefully enough people remember the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 9:17:46 PM EDT
"...the main characteristics of fascism are nationalism, militarism, a government controlled by a single group/party, and violation of basic human rights..." Department of Homeland Security. National ID Card. Internment camps. Land of the Free...Home of the Brave? Are you guys even thinking about what you are suggesting/supporting? Yep. Kiss the Second Amendment...along with the entire BoRs goodbye. Still think you're safe now that all the big bad terrorist looking foreigners are gone? Can't happen here? Ya mean like three planes can't hit the WTC & the Pentagon? On the same day? Yes. A restriction on Freedom can happen here like it has happened everywhere else on the planet. If we succumb to such policies, the terrorists will have truly won...& you will have assisted them in doing so by reacting out of fear & terror. yes....be cautious, promote security for our nation in all places... but internment camps? I will agree to be interned if everyone here who owns a firearm will agree to be interned...for the safety of the nation...do it for the children. 7 million Muslims in America killed no one today. [%(]
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 10:10:56 PM EDT
The only people that support this have horse blinders on and think they or one of their family will never be one of the internees at some future date. I think most of you already kissed the Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Republic goodbye and are adopting what you really want: A MOB RULE DEMOCRACY.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 11:54:16 PM EDT
The fact is that the terrorists use our freedoms as a weapon against us. Lets all think about this, noncitizens are not permitted to vote that right is reserved for Citizens, so why should noncitizens have other rights as well. One of my best friends is a Muslim and does not want to become a citizen and he has lived here for over 20 years. Now he is a hunter and owns firearms, so my question is why should a noncitizen be permitted to purchase and own a firearm. I believe that the Bill Of Rights should be reserved for citizens not foreign nationals. You receive all the rights of the Bill Of Rights when you become a citizen not before then. So why can’t the government change the law as it pertains to foreigners and remove some of the rights that citizens have from foreigners like letting law enforcement tap their phones etc. This would be a lot better then having the rights of every American trampled upon in the name of security. And while I am in this mood why should we keep letting people become new citizens. I believe Australia among other countries has a very tight immigration policy, and will not let any one become a citizen unless they are needed by the country like Bill Gates would be welcomed with open arms but a street person or another person who is not rich and will not contribute to the country would be told to go elsewhere. I feel the message on the statue of liberty has outlived it’s usefulness. By the way internment camps might be the only way to save the lives of the Muslims if there are too many more terrorist attacks. When people are angry and in fear they will do almost anything to feel safe, and this is a fact, not a very nice fact but a fact nevertheless.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 1:18:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hunduh: Holding up signs that said "America dont retaliate". I wouldve kicked his ass myself had I been off duty. I wouldve stuffed his sign up his ass. (dont go there...you know what I mean), ok make it stuffed down his throat.
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and....... [b]If you are found to have supported the terrorists or funded them or even knew of what was about to happen and didnt tell anyone, then YOU SHOULD BE SHOT WITHOUT A TRIAL, just as if you had committed the heinous act yourself. Its time to wake up and realize that maybe we have too many civil liberties, maybe we are too tolerant of certain activities/peoples. Flag Burners should be locked up. Wanna make a statement?? Hope youre willing to pay the price.... [/b] I am assuming that from this phrase: [b]I wouldve kicked his ass myself had I been off duty.[/b] that you are a cop...right?? So...as a LEO you want to abolish the laws of the land (ie Constitution), particularly freedom of a trail and freedom of speach. Plus, you would willing let a crime/assult occur strickly because you think someone "deserves it". Exactly would be in charge of carring these actions out? I assume you think you and other LEO's should be in charge?? Quite frankly, [i]YOU[/i] are more of a danger to the average american then a person of Arab decent. You want to be the Judge and jury..with a gun to carry out the punishment!!! Now if you are not a LEO, I agologize. But if you are then why don't you take your ideas to your supervisor and see what he thinks of them...you will probably be fired on the spot, or at least I hope so. Leo's (or any other government official) that thinks like you scare the crap out of me. Because it is obvious that you are power hungry and very danger. But frankly, I think you will probably snap one day...I just hope you don't take anyone with you when it happens. sgtar15
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 1:32:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51: The fact is that the terrorists use our freedoms as a weapon against us. Lets all think about this, noncitizens are not permitted to vote that right is reserved for Citizens, so why should noncitizens have other rights as well............So why can’t the government change the law as it pertains to foreigners and remove some of the rights that citizens have from foreigners like letting law enforcement tap their phones etc.
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Simple!!! Because the Bill of Rights are [b] God given not government given!![/b] If you do not understand this then you have a major problem!!! If these rights were government given the the government can take them away any time it wants...wheather it be from citizens or non-citizens. If your friend is here legally he has the same right to freedom of speach, a fair trial, and the right to protect himself just as much as you do!! To deprive him of that is saying he is less of a human being than you are. I hope you understand this simple fact!! Voting is different because he isn't a offical "member" (read citizen) of this country. Voting is a privledge reserved for citizens of a particular country, the Bill of Rights is for [b]ALL[/b] members of humankind. sgtar15
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 1:35:40 AM EDT
Don't tread on me.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 9:27:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51: The fact is that the terrorists use our freedoms as a weapon against us. Lets all think about this, noncitizens are not permitted to vote that right is reserved for Citizens, so why should noncitizens have other rights as well. One of my best friends is a Muslim and does not want to become a citizen and he has lived here for over 20 years. Now he is a hunter and owns firearms, so my question is why should a noncitizen be permitted to purchase and own a firearm. I believe that the Bill Of Rights should be reserved for citizens not foreign nationals. You receive all the rights of the Bill Of Rights when you become a citizen not before then. So why canâ??t the government change the law as it pertains to foreigners and remove some of the rights that citizens have from foreigners like letting law enforcement tap their phones etc. This would be a lot better then having the rights of every American trampled upon in the name of security. And while I am in this mood why should we keep letting people become new citizens. I believe Australia among other countries has a very tight immigration policy, and will not let any one become a citizen unless they are needed by the country like Bill Gates would be welcomed with open arms but a street person or another person who is not rich and will not contribute to the country would be told to go elsewhere. I feel the message on the statue of liberty has outlived itâ??s usefulness. By the way internment camps might be the only way to save the lives of the Muslims if there are too many more terrorist attacks. When people are angry and in fear they will do almost anything to feel safe, and this is a fact, not a very nice fact but a fact nevertheless.
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What they said. "In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again." Edward Gibbon "It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own." Thomas Jefferson "The protection of our rights is tested, however, not when what we do or say is popular but when it is unpopular. Stated most starkly, a free society is tested by the way it protects the rights of its least popular members." Roger Pilon
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 11:10:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mags:ARlady......innocent until proven guilty?.....like OJ..right?[rolleyes]
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Yes, like OJ. It isn't perfect, but it is by far the best system anyone had yet to devise. OJ may, or may not, have been a tragedy of justice. The only reason it is a big deal is the media hype around it. I'll go you one better... During the Waco Congressional hearings a State Rep (his name escapes me now) responded to the statement that all those (Davidians) tried for crimes at or before Waco.. "Do you really thk that everyone acquitted of Murder is innocent?" When our political leaders use this philosophy, and regard trials and acquittals as irrelevant, we a only a stones throw away from Nazi germany. Yes, like OJ. Zaz
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 11:28:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By maelcum: Don't tread on me.
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Thought you might like this: [url]http://www.standandfight.com/tshirts/details.cfm?ID=23[/url] [dracula]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 11:58:21 AM EDT
I don't like the idea of inturnment camps. However it would not bother me a bit to see Arabs (not Muslems, and not American's of Arab decent) deported. I have no probablem telling the diffrence between a religion and a race. Now the fact is we have been attacked by Arabs, and it is not the first time. Most,if not all, are Muslem, however not all Muslems are Arab. I am not saying to shoot them, just send them home, some may blame the US, I think most will blame the terriosts. At this time I really don't care, give me a few weeks, if I am still here, I will think about it again. What can I say, I'm infantry, sometimes you have to close your mind, or you could not do your job. SFC(ret)Rew E. Williams
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 12:33:44 PM EDT
things like this make me hate being a resident of NY. all these damn liberals and their hatred of freedom
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 1:39:33 PM EDT
sgtar15 Well how about you coming up with a plan to keep us safe without infringing on any of our rights. The fact is that we are at war and we happen to be at war with people who use terrorism as the primary weapon and a large number of them are already in our country. Let us consider that the vast majority of Muslims really love our country and would never do anything to harm it. Lets say that 99 or better yet 99.9 percent of the six million Muslims are no danger to us. Now that means that at least 6,000 people who do not have the best interests of our Nation in mind are amongst us. Now I just saw people on TV saying that our nuclear power plants are in danger and want the national guard to protect them and have missiles around them. So we are in real danger of more terrorist attacks and some of them could be very deadly. So you don’t like the idea of restricting our rights to only citizens, and of course we should not intern the Muslims. So what do you and the other people who don’t want to take action against the Muslims think will happen when some of the 6,000 of them who are the enemy murder innocent people and commit other acts of terrorism. I know what is going to happen just because of human nature and that is people are going to be very afraid and are going to hate those who have done these acts. And if our government does not solve the problem and make the people feel safe, then the people might just decide to take the law into their own hands. And if this happens all the Muslims bad and good alike will be in very real danger and feel the wrath of the American people. Even rats will stand and fight when they are cornered and in fear, and a group of people who both fear and hate are very dangerous and are capable of committing heinous acts. Like the lynch mobs or the people who catch a suspected serial child rapist murderer and attempt to beat him to death only to find out they tried to kill an innocent man. We can become nothing more them animals just given the right conditions.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 1:53:03 PM EDT
34% of new yorkers think that internment camps are some type of new or previously unheard of by them, socializt benefit that they've been paying for all along and can now take advantage of. like a super-happy-fun camp with pony rides, dolphin shows, sing-a-longs and face painting.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 2:07:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady:
Originally Posted By Hunduh: If you are found to have supported the terrorists or funded them or even knew of what was about to happen and didnt tell anyone, then YOU SHOULD BE SHOT WITHOUT A TRIAL, just as if you had committed the heinous act yourself.
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and what name would you like to give this country because United States of America would no longer apply? seriously, though. i see absolutely no reason for internments camps. if they're not U.S. citizens, send them back to country of origin. if they are U.S. citizens, they deserve and have a right to demand full due process of the law. no illegal incarceration, no shooting without a trial, innocent until proven guilty. i'm not exactly thrilled that this might mean a few real terrorists will remain because they have attained citizenship, but i would rather deal with them than tear down and bastardize everything this country stands for. whether we like it or not, the freedoms we brag so freely about technically belong to every human on this earth, unless of course, you believe that the governments grant rights. and whether we like it or not, our very sacred freedoms will mean that we will be open to such actions. we cannot preserve our freedoms by infringing on those of others.
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[^] i wish there were more women/people like you. kudo's giving lib you go Imbroglio!!! [beer]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 2:11:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: The only people that support this have horse blinders on and think they or one of their family will never be one of the internees at some future date. I think most of you already kissed the Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Republic goodbye and are adopting what you really want: A MOB RULE DEMOCRACY.
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ditto ditto ditto!!! you da man [):)] remember people. Hitler attacked minorities in Germany first, then applied it to the rest of the citizenry. what power you give to the government will not be relinquished after a crisis. that power will effect you too. "what goes around; comes around" -idontknow 1930's lib
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 2:38:01 PM EDT
I think most of you can guess from my name that I'm of Japanese descent. The idea of internment camps horrifies me. I'm a US citizen, born & raised. I even served in the US Army. But I still shudder when I think that because of my ancestry, had I been here during WWII, I'd have been "relocated." But then I'm also horrified by the idea of a suitcase nuke (or any other easily deployed NBC weapon). Last time I checked, any foreign national in the US (tourists, students, those on work visa, etc.) is here at the pleasure of the United States Government. Unfortunately, our borders are way too open and the procedures for getting a tourist visa are way too easy. So now, let the INS run roughshod over any illegals, regardless of origin. Then, we can say, "Goodbye," to anybody from a *suspect* country who is still a foreign national. But then, how do we determine what a suspect country is? Only two countries have not said that they stand behind us. And where is the line drawn? What "undesirable groups" will be the next target? Or do we cross our hearts & promise that this will be a one-time only deal? It'd be nice if there was an easy answer. But the ideals of this country demand that we adhere to the hard answers. We're a nation of law. Even when that law gets in the way of what we might want, there's a way to deal with that. Remember that oft quoted line about democracy being 2 wolves & a sheep deciding what to have for dinner. The upshot is that democracy is just a fancy word for "mob rule." Our Constitution is there (at least in part) to protect us from more base nature.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 2:54:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: The only people that support this have horse blinders on and think they or one of their family will never be one of the internees at some future date. I think most of you already kissed the Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Republic goodbye and are adopting what you really want: A MOB RULE DEMOCRACY.
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Exactly. While we're at it, though, let's get rid of the Electoral College. Its, like, awfully confusing.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 3:01:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CPL_Punishment: It is amazing that many of you view our government as more of an enemy than the terrorists.
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because it has the POTENTIAL to do more damage than any number of terrorists ever will. period. the only thing terrorists can succeed in doing is killing people. the government, on the other hand, can do this a much worse. in that sense, it is an enemy. it is amazing that you can't see that.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 3:16:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51: sgtar15 Well how about you coming up with a plan to keep us safe without infringing on any of our rights.
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i would have thought that with 200+ posts you would have been made well aware of a certain quote that's been running around here about sacrificing freedom for security and losing both in the process. there is no guarantee for safety. no government in the world can, or should, be held to this standard. how about taking responsibility for your own safety?
The fact is that we are at war and we happen to be at war with people who use terrorism as the primary weapon and a large number of them are already in our country. Let us consider that the vast majority of Muslims really love our country and would never do anything to harm it. Lets say that 99 or better yet 99.9 percent of the six million Muslims are no danger to us. Now that means that at least 6,000 people who do not have the best interests of our Nation in mind are amongst us.
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newsflash: there are more people than that who would like to destroy the U.S. of A. and they're even citizens of this country. and you think the only threat is from a bunch of people different from you?
Now I just saw people on TV saying that our nuclear power plants are in danger and want the national guard to protect them and have missiles around them. So we are in real danger of more terrorist attacks and some of them could be very deadly.
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that's usually the point of a terrorist attack: death. and you mean to tell me that needed to watch television to find out that our country is in danger of future attacks and some of them might be deadly?
So you don’t like the idea of restricting our rights to only citizens, and of course we should not intern the Muslims. So what do you and the other people who don’t want to take action against the Muslims think will happen when some of the 6,000 of them who are the enemy murder innocent people and commit other acts of terrorism.
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last time i checked, the U.S.A. did not sic the law on people for what they might do. try this one on for size: how about concentrating every gun owner in a camp because he has the potential to use that firearm for ill? sound ludicrous? good. because it is. so is your idea.
And if our government does not solve the problem and make the people feel safe, then the people might just decide to take the law into their own hands. And if this happens all the Muslims bad and good alike will be in very real danger and feel the wrath of the American people.
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and those "American" people are no better than the terrorists if they cannot distinguish between those who are responsible and those who share some characteristics (skin color, heritage, religion) with the responsible party. your solutions do NOT solve the problem.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:43:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CPL_Punishment: Will you guys ever trust the government? if so, when?
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i can't speak for the rest of the guys, but i will never trust the government fully. trust, by definition, means that i wouldn't have to wonder about the government stabbing me in the back. it means i am certain the government would always make decisions that were in the best interest of the people of this country and of the country itself. however, since all governments are run by men (generic, non-gender specific term), there is always the chance that the guys making the decisions will stab me in the back for their own purposes. and we're well aware that the government rarely makes a decision that is in the best interest of the people or the country, but rather for the people IN the government. implicit trust also brings about a sense of complacency (witness recent events, we trusted the airlines and federal regulations to protect us). with that complacency comes a lack of motivation to make sure MY government is still MY government. i mean, hey, if i trust the government i don't have to keep up on current events because i just know the government is going to do the right thing, right? just like a parent who turns a blind eye to her children. they know this. they use this. they abuse this. now i ask you, based on all this, why do you still expect me to trust any government? better yet, why do YOU trust this government?
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:05:09 PM EDT
Sniper_762x51, I now what you are trying to say and I also believe we are both on the same side. I agree that we should increase security [b]but not at the price of personnal rights![/b] As I have stated before in another thread, I have no problem with increased security around government building, airports and ect. But the reality is that if someone wants to do harm they will always find a way...regardless of any security measure. But the best security measure would be to allow all American citizens in good standing the right to keep and bear arms. (I realize that the term "good standing" is open to interpitation so I won't get into that right now.) In short I believe that there are two ways protect against evil...allow me the means neccessary to protect myself and eliminate the problem completely when neccesary. And even then sh!t still happens. sgtar15
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:31:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: "...the main characteristics of fascism are nationalism, militarism, a government controlled by a single group/party, and violation of basic human rights..." Department of Homeland Security. National ID Card. Internment camps. Land of the Free...Home of the Brave? Are you guys even thinking about what you are suggesting/supporting? Yep. Kiss the Second Amendment...along with the entire BoRs goodbye. Still think you're safe now that all the big bad terrorist looking foreigners are gone? Can't happen here? Ya mean like three planes can't hit the WTC & the Pentagon? On the same day? Yes. A restriction on Freedom can happen here like it has happened everywhere else on the planet. If we succumb to such policies, the terrorists will have truly won...& you will have assisted them in doing so by reacting out of fear & terror. yes....be cautious, promote security for our nation in all places... but internment camps? I will agree to be interned if everyone here who owns a firearm will agree to be interned...for the safety of the nation...do it for the children. 7 million Muslims in America killed no one today. [%(]
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I see. And what single group/party would that be. Republicrats? The white man's party? Corporations. The war party? And this nation is not a militarily regimented state. Our military population has been steadily declining since WW2, even as the general population has grown dramatically. We only spend 3.5% of our GNP on the entire military and security services, and not 14% like the former Soviet Union, a truly militaristic nation (truly fascist nations were probably more - I don't have the figures in front of me). Heck, we don't even make tanks anymore - they shut down the last factory! The basic idea behind this department of homeland security is to connect our varied government agencies together. As strange as it may sound the government is very disfunctional and often one hand does not know what the other is doing. That has already been illustrated in this crisis regarding the failure of information to get from the INS to the NSA, which collectively could have given us warning. As for the internment camps... if you have lived here for some time then you know that all muslims ARE NOT going to be rounded up and put in camps. If you have not then I can perhaps understand your concern, but please don't dwell on the rantings of the ignorant. Imbroglio likes to stir things up. If you take a poll after some national disaster with the right lead you can probably get any answer you want. As I said before there may be some illegal aliens who are deported over this (sad that it takes a crisis for our laws to be enforced) and legal residents (not citizens) if there is evidence that they pose a threat. It's legal and I say so be it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:41:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hunduh: Flag Burners should be locked up. Wanna make a statement?? Hope youre willing to pay the price....
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If you want to get technical the proper disposal of a flag per the guidebook and instructions from Annin (an American Made flag maker) is disposal by burning. Now burning as a political statement although protected by the 1st Amendment is a total disgrace, and a perpatrator of this has whats coming to them. Anyone seen Hillary Clinton lately? [:D] [beer]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:08:25 PM EDT
Im in favor, better save than sorry.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:36:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CPL_Punishment: Will you guys ever trust the government? if so, when?
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Wanna know how far I trust the government (not just ours, anyone's)? About 300 yards, 500 if the light is good and the wind is calm. The difference between a terrorist and common criminals is motive and organization. The difference between a terrorist and an out of control government with no limits upon its power is motive and organization. Each is an order of magnitude more capable of injustice, mayhem, and destruction. The Bill of Rights is not something to be set aside because we're not quite sure how to deal with this problem. If you can do that, it's worthless at any time, because any reason can be manufactured. Matrix, AR Lady, and sgtar15 spoke well.
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