Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Site Notices
3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 9/24/2001 6:02:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 6:25:34 AM EDT by garandman]
Could a mod possibly tack this one up??? I wouldn't ask if I didn't think it was important. [b] WE NEED TO START AN URGENT LETTER WRITING CAMPAIGN!!!!!!!! [/B] Please write former PA Gov. Tom Ridge, head of the new Homeland Security Department that he take advantage of the IMMENSE resource available to him in the UNORGANIZED MILITIA. Mention the legal precedent ALREADY set in the Militia Act of 1791. Request that either Federal or state monies be made available to fund training of the Unorganized Militia. Remind him of the Texas study that SHOWS that those who subject their Constitutional rights to Concealed Carry laws are FAR MORE law abiding than the general populace, even with the criminal element removed from the gen. pop. stats. Remind him of that Japanese Admirals comments (I forget his name) that the Japanese would NEVER invade mainland America as "there would be a rifle behind EVERY blade of grass." We have a HUGE and UNPRECEDENTED opportunity to get Constitutional recognition and legal precedent set regarding our status as 21st century Minutemen (and women [:D] ), and recognition of our RIGHTS to own, use and train with our SUR's. [size=4]THIS IS TOO IMPOTANT TO WAIT TIL LATER!!!!!!!! DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!! SEIZE THE MOMENT!!!!!!!!!![/SIZE=4] Who is with me?????
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:06:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 7:06:16 AM EDT by Grundsau]
Garandman, thanks for carrying the flag on this one. Here is a link to Gov. Ridge's email. [url]http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Governor/organization.html[/url] Should be good till 10/5 when he resigns as Pa. Gov. Not sure where to send emails after that. Probably be a good thing to notify your Reps and Senators also.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:05:44 AM EDT
There is another example from History.... Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland during WWII but as the Swiss have mandetory military service and a fully automatic rifle is kept in every household, Hitler's staff estimated it would require all of Hitler's war machinery to invade and concur them. Therefore, Hitler never invaded...... I also think we need to increase involvement with programs like DCM/CMP and the old "Patriotic Sons of America." I will send a letter!
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:05:51 AM EDT
BTT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:20:54 AM EDT
It can't hurt to try, but don't expect Tommy to welcome the unorganized militia w/ open arms. He's been no real friend to the 2nd ammendment during his tenure in elective offices here in PA. Especially as Governor, most pro-RKBA was accomplished in spite of him rather than because of him. What saved his ass in the elections over and over was that his opposition was always so much worse.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:24:46 AM EDT
Good point, Golgo. Then let's all write WHOEVER might listen.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:30:21 AM EDT
Why not take it directly to the top? GW Bush hisself! Also cc Ashcroft, Cheney, et. al. Probably should also give President Heston a holler...
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:34:52 AM EDT
Any politician who hears the word "Militia" is going to ignore you. They are avoiding all such controversial issues, right now. This is for the sake of political unity. Figure a way to suggest it without saying it. Let them say it.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 9:47:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: [b] WE NEED TO START AN URGENT LETTER WRITING CAMPAIGN! [/B] Please write former PA Gov. Tom Ridge, head of the... Who is with me?????
View Quote
Garandman, Of course I'm with you on this, or should I say I'm ahead of you. On the 14th I posted that we should contact our governor's and state representatives to encourage them to do the same. Don't rely only on the Federal Government, get your state officials involved too. And call your local law enforcement chief and recommend that he begin doing background checks to prepare for an emergency deputization" of citizens. Here's the letter I wrote to my representatives: Dear Senator ____________, I’m writing to you regarding state and local security measures to prevent or limit the success of any terrorist attack on the people of Illinois. Since we don’t know when or where terrorists will choose to attack, it will become prudent to consider guarding essential portions of our infrastructure. My concern is the dependence on the Federal government, and talk about giving up freedoms. While airports and other institutions will need increased security, I am totally opposed to giving up any freedoms recognized in the Bill of Rights (both state and local). President Bush was correct to identify our freedom as the target. Instead of eroding our Constitutional freedoms, we need to restore them to become effective tools in fighting crime and terrorism The first means of fighting back should be to leverage the citizens of our state to actively defend the infrastructure of our communities. This only requires the implementation of article XII of the Constitution of the State of Illinois, which defines the militia as consisting “of all able-bodied persons residing in the State except those exempted by law”. The presence of “militia” groups functioning independently of state control should not prevent the use of the militia. Please consider the following reasons to consider promoting the use of the militia. First, the nature of terrorism is that its targets are unconventional. The current tragedy in New York illustrates the point. Some alternate targets would include transportation (bridges), power (nuclear power plants, power lines, etc.), and water supplies. Employing sufficient police to guard at all targets would be financially prohibitive. A trained civilian militia could be assigned to assist in this measure at a reasonable expense. Second, police departments need to focus on criminal activities and emergency responsiveness. It is a waste of manpower to require full time police officers to do crowd control when a trained civilian militia, under police training and authority, can do the same. Even in the New York incident we see the criminal element taking advantage of the situation. The police need to be fighting crime instead of standing guard Third, there is the legal implication of section 3, article XII, which says “The General Assembly shall provide by law for the organization, equipment and discipline of the militia in conformity with the laws governing the armed forces of the United States.” Consider the legal and moral consequences of ignoring this Constitutional requirement. Instead of invading privacy and removing constitutionally recognized rights, the legislature needs to consider legal means of fighting terrorism. At the head of this list should be the militia. Thanks for your consideration.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 10:11:45 AM EDT
Yeah, sure, whatever. You'll probably have to have a National ID Card to be recognized as a member of the unorganized militia. When are you guys going to figure out that you don't get something for nothing with our government? You should write Tom Ridge and tell him how ludicrous the idead of Homeland Defense is in light of the fact that our military has a mult-billion dollar (or is it trillion now?) budget and still can't get the job done. Tell him to bring our people home where they belong and put them to work doing what they have been supposed to do for over 200 years. The only way I'll agree to participate in the militia is if the standing army is disbanded or severely reduced in size.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 1:14:58 PM EDT
Letter sent. trickshot: I agree with your intent, but you need to recognize that it was a different world in 1791.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 1:41:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 1:56:26 PM EDT by dragracerart]
I think you guys are NUTS for writing politicians, looking for support for militia groups... Have you not seen the way the media and poiticians depict militias ??? You might as well write to Ridge and say: "Hey Mr. Ridge, how about letting us tobacco chewing redneck, inbred gun whackos run amuck in the streets...We're here to help..." Nice idea, but there's NO WAY it'll EVER fly... I prefer to distance myself from militia groups...All it will do is put me on an ATF house burning list... NO OFFENSE GUYS... Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way...I KNOW many here are members of militia groups...And I wish the media and public would be more fair in their judgement of them... I'd probably join a militia group, if they didn't have such a bad rap...I've got a wife and 4 kids, and I don't need any unnecessary labels stuck on me... I just think this would be the view from a politicians perspective... Again, no offense intended here... Just my .02 cents...
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 2:57:48 PM EDT
What dragracerart said. There is no way in the world that ANY politician at the national level will do ANYTHING to legitimize the militia. Maybe if you have a sympathetic local sheriff, then maybe, and I do mean MAYBE. It is a shame that the Homeland Security Agency will refuse to use this resource, as it will cost them nothing, and demonstrate what the militia is really about. That is why it will never happen.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 11:04:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 2:55:48 AM EDT
drag , trick, pas , I m with you :)
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 3:59:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 4:01:57 AM EDT by garandman]
Right now, I'm trying to invision Patrick Henry saying... "Don't do it. You won't be well received in the media. The Politicians won't like it." The Republic is lost. And I am REALLY disappointed in some of you guys. REALLY. I think they called them "Tories."
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:09:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Right now, I'm trying to invision Patrick Henry saying... "Don't do it. You won't be well received in the media. The Politicians won't like it." The Republic is lost. And I am REALLY disappointed in some of you guys. REALLY. I think they called them "Tories."
View Quote
So go to http://www.e-thepeople.com/ and find the petition "Use the Militia, Preserve our Rights". If you agree with it, sign it and join the discussion (I'm getting clobbered). Richardson
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:18:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 6:20:13 PM EDT by jz02]
umm, have you guys considered what a militia should be like and how it should be ran as opposed to how it is ran? What separates the militia from the regular military, besides the difference in time commitment and the uniforms? To what degree should civilian militias be allowed autonomy? (as opposed to being uncontrolled armed mobs [commonly associated with chaos and violence]). How should the militias be trained? What weapon systems should be allocated to civilian militias? What is the role of the civilian militia in respect to the regular military, the reserves, the guards, the police, the FBI, the federal marshalls, etc. Finally, what should be the rules regarding political orientation of the militias. As you all know, the military is by law required to be apolitical, this of course is essential to our national security so that the profession does not get tangled by politics and carry out orders without political reservation. Should this be required of the militias as well? And if yes, how should it be enforced (you do realize that it involves giving up limited freedom of speech and press as taking sides politically in a public manner would violate this very restriction) If no, then how do you justify having armed militias with political agendas? What can be done to ensure that this does not cause factionalism and armed intervention in the political process? I'm all for a citizen militia, but for practicality, you guys really have to think about the issues I pointed out above because they're going to have to be resolved before any serious effort to have government funded citizen militias can even be considered seriously.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 8:30:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 9:40:21 PM EDT
Guys read my post under: UNITED STATES NATIONAL DEFENSE FORCE (U.S.N.D.F) I think this has a better chance then trying to invoke various state milita clauses. Thanks
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 6:39:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 6:39:52 AM EDT by Jewbroni]
Originally Posted By trickshot: Yeah, sure, whatever. You'll probably have to have a National ID Card to be recognized as a member of the unorganized militia.
View Quote
Better yet, let's consider the consequences of such organization. It's 2003, and the battle over the 2nd Amendment is finally won in our favor. The "(un)organized militia" is indeed comprised of the armed citizens who wish to help defend the homeland of our country, and thus any pertinent anti-gun laws are dissolved and the gun war is over... ...until the liberals get involved. Once gun ownership is defined purely in terms of "militiamen" and not ordinary citizens, new pieces of legislature are introduced to prohibit many civilians from owning weaponry. Your [i]National ID card[/i], if you will, shall indeed be used to keep track of if you own a weapon and if you are a member of a/the militia. When purchasing a weapon, you must show your National ID card, you must prove you are an active member of some state militia, etc. It's no different from our driver's license, except that it is an ADDITIONAL measure of identification prior to any/all gun purchases. Money from your pocket goes to fund the federal government's I.D. program, and every citizen must meet certain requirements (such as age, weapon training, experience, and other federally funded "programs" that they please) before you may even touch a gun. Sound familiar? Yup - it's called [b]Smith & Wesson[/b]. In an attempt to unify the country as an armed community, we have made it harder for the average American to even have access to a firearm, and every single American citizen is registered to the Feds for their firearm purchase. It's self-productive, and NOT an effective means of incorporating freedom of the 2nd.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:52:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 7:52:22 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Jewbroni: The "(un)organized militia" is indeed comprised of the armed citizens.... ...until the liberals get involved. Once gun ownership is defined purely in terms of "militiamen" and not ordinary citizens....
View Quote
I appreciate your input, but you contradict yourself.(IMO) On one hand you say the militia is made up of citizens....but then you say gun ownership is restricted to only militia personnel (which according to your statement is made up armed citizens.) Its circular reasoning. It leaves ones head spinning. Further, official recognition of the militia does not CAUSE the leftists to "get involved." Official recognition doesn't cause us any MORE problems with the leftists - we've already got problems with them. In short, I believe you are creating a boogeyman which DOES NOT exist. Official recognition of the Unorganized Militia can ONLY be a GOOD thing. Thoughts????
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 10:26:24 AM EDT
Count me in Garandman... I emailed him, and will attempt to FAX him & write a letter! Fantastic idea!!! [^] ARnSC
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 2:00:39 PM EDT
Thanks, garandman for carrying this. Libertarians are really a good thing for America. I like the strategy of no hope and optimism at all, and shooting down every idea before it has even lifted off. Damn, do I feel silly for not voting straight liberatarian! You lbrtarians members really make me regret some things! Oh, and did anyone get a message reply from Ridge's email saying: [b]A restriction in the system prevented delivery of the message. The MTS-ID of the original message is: c=US;a= ;p=CWOPA;l=HBGIMC020109252342SV2DB4RM MSEXCH:MSExchangeMTA:Harrisburg:HBGIMC02[/b] ?? wtf is this?
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 5:19:21 PM EDT
have anyone come up with anything regarding the issues I brought up? How do you expect people to take funding unorganized militias seriously if it's just an uncontrolled armed mob?
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 8:29:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 8:30:18 PM EDT by Jewbroni]
Sorry, Garandman. Let me clarify. I meant simply to BECOME an armed citizen, you must prior APPLY to be a member of a militia (i.e. you may keep any guns you have, but for another individual to become a gunowner, he must meet the requirements and become a [b]militiaman[/b] first). If the definition of armed citizens applies strictly to the militia, then you must be a member of that organization in order to own and buy any firearms. That's where the government gets involved with required training programs, additional identification, and complete and total registration. I'm not creating a monster out of air. I was simply replying to an evil that the "National ID card", as Trickshot brought up, might possibly produce. I'm all for using the power and productivity of the nation's unorganized militia, and thus disbarring any petty gun law that might get in the way. The National ID card, if agreed upon, would most likely encroach on the "militia" aspect, and this is one possible outcome of such an incorporation. It's not overly farfethched, nor is it highly probable. It is simply a logical conclusion to something which may, one day, come up on the horizon.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 4:56:10 AM EDT
Jewbroni - The "National ID card" thing is to me a SEPARATE issue from citizen militias (aka "unorganized militia) which BY DEFINTION the Fed gov't has NO control over. The reason for the existence of the unorganized militia is to combat Federal tyranny. So, BY DEFINTION the "National ID Card" is a separate issue from the citizen militia. Trying to bring the unorized militia under the "National ID Card" would be unconstitutional on its face. Leftist weenies are gonna push for the ID Card, REGARDLESS of whether or not we push for utilization of the unorganized militia as a resource in fighting terrorism. The fact taht they may try to use our unorganized miltia against us SHOULD NOT (IMO) stop us from trying to achieve precedent for recognition of the unorganized militia.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 5:00:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jz02: have anyone come up with anything regarding the issues I brought up? How do you expect people to take funding unorganized militias seriously if it's just an uncontrolled armed mob?
View Quote
This is an easy one. Read the Second Amendment. "Well regulated" means trained, organized and disciplined. But the militia is BY DEFINTION a state organization. As in, the state of South Carolina - the state of Iowa, etc. The states have abrogated their responsibility to "regulate" their militias. But that is OK. Time is NOW to call the Unorganized militia together, and get 'em some training. Flow federal $$$ to the states to train, organize and prepare the Unorganized militia (which by my definiton includes INDIVIDUAL citizens acting alone (if need be) to combat acts of war and acts of terrorism) for service.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 10:34:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Jewbroni - The "National ID card" thing is to me a SEPARATE issue from citizen militias (aka "unorganized militia) which BY DEFINTION the Fed gov't has NO control over.
View Quote
Agreed and Agreed.
Trying to bring the unorganized militia under the "National ID Card" would be unconstitutional on its face.
View Quote
Since when has something that was "unconstitutional" stopped them from legislating something?
Leftist weenies are gonna push for the ID Card, REGARDLESS of whether or not we push for utilization of the unorganized militia as a resource in fighting terrorism.
View Quote
Right again... But don't think they won't at least ATTEMPT to target gun owners (or the militia) in one way or another with this. I think you misread my message as saying "I don't think we should push for an unorganized militia". It's quite the opposite. Do I think we should operate on the power of the militia? Most certainly. Do I think that the Nat. ID card issue will EVER come up to affect gun owners? Most certainly. Do I think it will hurt us, or even work? Not a chance. It's simply another thing we'll have to deal with (and blow out of the water) when the time comes, so my point is to be not too shocked when they try to low blow us.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:54:00 PM EDT
Isn't there the National guards? Aren't they the official militia? Each state has its own national guard and they're under the command of the governer at peacetime. So essentially they qualify as the well regulated militia that the 2nd Admendment talks about. So why do you need an unorganized militia? Just join your state National Guard if you want to be a militia member.
Top Top