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Posted: 9/23/2001 8:50:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 8:52:25 PM EDT by Gunplay]
When you can have a KKF M17 [url]www.kurts-kustom-firearms.cityslide.com/pages/page.cfm/649598[/url] Add a forward handle.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:05:09 PM EDT
Neat......but I'd still rather have the AUG.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:06:17 PM EDT
They AUG is ugly as sin. At least that's my opinion of it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:09:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 9:11:11 PM EDT by njogi]
Shoot an Aug and you will see why it is the "best" .223 designed weapon. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ar15/M16's, Galil, G36, Daewoo, HK53 and they are have nice feature and advantages, but you have not experienced the best of them all until you have sampled an Aug. This week we went to an MG shoot and once again it made us realize out of the Auto's including the UMP, MP5 PDK, Poly AK, and an UZI, why the AUG is it's own class. Thanks, this is my input and others have their own too, but many will share same as mine. This is putting aside the price, parts availability and cost. Also since it's a bull-pup, the need to interchange the bolts, for a lefties. The Rifle is easy to take apart, clean, very reliable, very natural fitting, the scope has the right magnification and makes the rifle very easy and comfortable to ping targets. The full-auto version does not require a select fire switch. Transparent mags too and has functioned with most .223 ammo type. Thanks for reading.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:13:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 9:15:13 PM EDT by blkgun223aholic]
Augs are cool mine will out shoot any ar I have even one I dump big $ into. I use to have an M17 dose'nt come close [8D]
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:14:17 PM EDT
The AUG is a great shooting rifle. Just gotta learn and live with its vices.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 10:09:07 PM EDT
I WISH the M17 didn't suck so much. Goddam ugly ass buttstock and hate the charging handle. I wish Bushmaster would redesign it along the lines of a L85A1 also known as a SA-80. BTW the AUG has functions and features that a M17 can't begin to touch, despite Kurt's improvements.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:59:41 AM EDT
Let's not mention that the AUG actually [b]works[/b] while you're lucky if you can find a M17 that works. The M17 is an ugly abortion fabricated from leftover siding and recycled 2 liter bottles. [:D]
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:06:07 AM EDT
Didn't the Aussies have trouble with their AUGs? Something about the plastic trigger groups melting under sustained full-auto fire? Where is 1feral1? We need to ask him about such matters! Eric The(AUG-or-Augh!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:18:02 AM EDT
All bullpups have a design flaw.What if you have to shoot lefty.I know you can convert the AUG.But I mean right now.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:37:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:38:41 AM EDT
Why get an AUG ? Cause it is a very fine weapon. Why get a KF M17 ? Cause you don't have the money for an AUG.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 9:27:26 AM EDT
"Let's not mention that the AUG actually works while you're lucky if you can find a M17 that works. The M17 is an ugly abortion fabricated from leftover siding and recycled 2 liter bottles." Posted by wgunn Are you a troll or just an idiot. The M17S is a very good and functional weapon. I know several people who have the new ones and have never had any problems with them. Now I would certainly take an Aug if offered at a reasonable price,,, but the M17S is a great alternative. And BM takes great care of their stuff after the sale. I got my M17S over a year ago and enjoy the hell outta it. I exclusively use 30 rnd Thermold mags and have had absolutely no problems with it. Some people complain about the extruded aluminum schroud getting too warm but I contend that this is merely a sign of the design working to dissapate the heat from the barrel. The bolt is much cleaner than the AR design and will just keep on shooting and shooting. Any one who thinks that the new M17Ss are junk is just suffering from ignorance or a high Snob factor. In either case they are just plain WRONG.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 10:05:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 10:14:21 AM EDT
I think the Aussie problems stem from the fact that they use a licensed copy made by themselves, not the Austrian version.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 11:26:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Pay no attention to some of the problems with very early models of the M17S - which Bushmaster will fix if you have one. I'm sure early versions of the AUG had problems too. Only ealry pre-ban M17S had those issues.
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1) I don't buy guns because they are cheap, I buy them because I want them. I bitch about the price later. If I want a FAL, I'm not likely to purchase a SAR-2 because the SAR-2 is cheaper. 2) I've owned a pre-ban NIB (when I bought it) M17... being a fan of the bullpup design. I sent it back to Bushmaster for the receiver upgrade. Before I sent it in it would jam at least once every magazine when I fired it. When I got it back it would jam when I fired it. It was a hunk-o-crap. A postban my buddy bought wasn't any better. 3) I have two preban AUG's and they run perfectly, always have. A buddy has a NFA dealer sample fullauto AUG and it runs perfectly, always has. Great, the M17 in theory has a superior gas system. Well, for all of this trash talking on the gas system of the AR, I've never had a problem with my AR's and M16's... and I own plenty. I love theoretical conversations just as much as the next guy, but when talking about weapons designs I'll go with real world experience and disregard the table talk about how great something "should" be because it's gas system is superior... superior to a design that's proved itself for 35 years and counting. A gas system that the Israelis chose over their Galil. The M16 is the second most popular military rifle in the world. The M17 is in use by how many militaries? Oh that's right... none.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 11:32:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By retrodog: Any one who thinks that the new M17Ss are junk is just suffering from ignorance or a high Snob factor. In either case they are just plain WRONG.
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Yup, just a troll. Wait, let's turn this around. I've owned a pre-ban M17 and it was junk. I felt bad selling it because I knew it was junk... it never worked right. My buddy bought a postban and didn't have very good luck either... darn. Now, where I turn the tables. Anyone who says the M17 is a good rifle is a troll or an idiot. If you claim to own one that works, you're probably just some minimum wage worker who wished they could own an AUG but had to settle for their $400 wanna-be rifle. So you feel obligated to tell the world it's actually better than the AUG... so you don't feel so bad. No since in being an asshole and go off on name calling rants. I didn't mean to rock your little world by saying the M17 looked like it was made from siding and recycled 2 liter bottles... Oh, and I included a [:D] to show I was kidding. Grow up little man.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 11:35:49 AM EDT
I have seen crap happen with both and handled both types that are sweet little bullpups. If you have about 3 grand burning a hole in your pocket, get an AUG and more power to you. If you want an inexpensive bullpup that functions pretty good with minor tweaking and I have seen some perform with exceptional accuracy, get a M17s. If you don't like either, sell them to somebody. Ice
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 11:57:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 1:05:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 1:05:58 PM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Gosh, thanks for all your wisdom. So, by your own logic, the AUG must be a piece of crap, because so few countries use it. How many countries use the AUG?
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You're welcome. Oh, and the AUG is used by at least two more nations than the M17. I never said it was the best military rifle, but it's certainly found more homes than the non-existent M17. It helps to have things in perspective before ya post. [:)]
So the SIG 210 must be one of the worst handguns in the world, because no militaries use it? Hmmm - odd that it is the most expensive handgun money can buy.
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I never applied my logic to handguns, that was you. It helps if you don't put words in others mouths when you post, you can usually do enough damage to your credibly by using your own words... without trying to help others. [:)]
To my knowledge, Israelis choose M-16's because it's cheaper to have Uncle Sam pay for it than pay for their own. Many countries that use the M16 do so because of great deals from the US, or because of allinaces or other things unrelated to performance.
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Just goes to show how little you know about the Israelis and the M16. If you really want me to prove you wrong, you'll have to wait until I get home. Then I'll post a link to an Israeli military website where they explain the use of the M16 and the preference they have for it over the Galil. They really dig the M4, something which they often buy. Everyone assumes the M16 is so popular because it's "given away". Assumptions are horrible things... especially when they are so easily disproved. If you have a beef with the M16, at least get your facts straight. That, or someone's likely to tear your comments apart... especially on a board titled "AR15.com".
When it comes to govenment contracts, I don't really buy the "real world experience" argument. Lots of products fail because the market isn't right, or the timing is bad - not because the product is bad.
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So you're saying the M17 should have a large military following? Do you really think that highly of it?
Once again - I'm not knocking the AUG - it is great, no doubt about it. I just don't think it is worth the premium. Maybe if I was as wealthy as you, I wouldn't mind. [:D]
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That's ok, not everyone can be a millionaire. It's kinda hard to make someone feel bad about their wealth, but the communists try it all the time. Even though it rarely works, keep trying... you might get lucky one day with that guilt trip thing. [:)] Remember, the AUG's current market value isn't want they are really worth. Many folks paid $800 for them back in they 80's. They weren't real popular back then... but even 10 years ago you could still get them for $1,400 or so. I never said they were "worth" $3000, that was you talking again. I simply stated that if I want a particular rifle, I'll buy it. I may not like the price but I don't usually find myself just buying a rifle for the sake of a purchase (buying a M17 because I really want an AUG but can't afford it). [:D] Now, enough of all this mean spirited stuff. Let's play nice.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 1:26:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: So the SIG 210 must be one of the worst handguns in the world, because no militaries use it? Hmmm - odd that it is the most expensive handgun money can buy.
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[url]http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg63-e.htm[/url] Call me ignorant (as I am about most things), but Denmark, Germany, and Switzerland have used it.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 1:33:43 PM EDT
...dont forget that U.S. Customs use the AUG as well as some S.W.A.T. teams. i'm not sure, but i think i saw a picture of U.S. Marshalls using one too. [beer] heres to hopeing that DSAarms manufactures a domestic version of the shoulder fitting cheek welding bull-pup.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 1:46:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 2:50:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: I say the M17S is a good rifle, and I am neither a troll, an idiot, a minimum wage worker, nor someone who substitutes invective for good manners. BUT I COULD BE ILL-MANNERED IF I WISHED.
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I think you missed the point of my comment. I was reversing what was being said about me to show how ridiculous retrodogs comments were. Try reading the post again, perhaps you'll catch the drift.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 2:51:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fighting-Illini:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: So the SIG 210 must be one of the worst handguns in the world, because no militaries use it? Hmmm - odd that it is the most expensive handgun money can buy.
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[url]http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg63-e.htm[/url] Call me ignorant (as I am about most things), but Denmark, Germany, and Switzerland have used it.
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Laugh...
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 2:54:15 PM EDT
Oh, and if you want to read about the Israelis love of the M16, just point your browser to: [url]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault.htm[/url] Hopefully this dispels the myth/assumption they only love it because we give it to them.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 3:18:24 PM EDT
I hate to jump right in the middle of an interesting discussion this late in the game, but just had to mention the numbers. I just received a preban M17 back from BM after they did the upgrades. The original serial # was P003xx. The new number is P059xx. I find it hard to believe that BM has only built less than 6000 of these things. Actually, now that I think about it, after carrying it around at the fun show last weekend looking for someone to bite, I can see why they wouldn't be moving that well. Talk about an awkward contraption to tote around without a sling on it... Luckily, I finally wound up selling it on the boards here at a $50 loss. Just had to try one out for myself, but I don't think I will be looking for another any time soon.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 3:46:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 4:05:09 PM EDT
Wango tango! I have considered buying the M17 a couple of times and probably will at some point. Wgunn's point about the thing looking like it was cobbled together with some AlClad is valid though. WGunn did kind of get waylaid by the "what're you a troll?" comment. And no, I don't have anything against the rest of you, DK-prof, raf or imposter. You guys generally post stuff I like to read. Anyway, I am going to go smoke a fatty and sing Kumbaiyah.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 4:06:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 4:25:31 PM EDT
I just thought I should give bullpup a fare shake. I hate how it looks but I like the idea. I just wanted to post an inexpensive alternative to the AUG that I would consider. We all need to settle down, hell there are so many people to be angry at...
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:52:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By wgunn:
Originally Posted By raf: I say the M17S is a good rifle, and I am neither a troll, an idiot, a minimum wage worker, nor someone who substitutes invective for good manners. BUT I COULD BE ILL-MANNERED IF I WISHED.
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I think you missed the point of my comment. I was reversing what was being said about me to show how ridiculous retrodogs comments were. Try reading the post again, perhaps you'll catch the drift.
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Thanks for the unnecessary advice. I take exception to being labeled an idiot because my opinion differs from yours. I suggest you learn some manners and leave off insulting people needlessly. Not to mention that your condescending attitude does not impress me.
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Umm, you're doing the insulting big guy. I didn't insult anyone without first being insulted. If you think my above comments are insulting to you perhaps you need to hone your reading skills. They were intended to calm you down because you misunderstood my comments initially. Now you're two for two (misunderstandings) and resorting to a tough guy act. I wasn't attacking you, I was trying to calm you down... but I guess you'll have none of that! Try lightening up, life's too short to be wound up so tight all the time. Jesh.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 5:56:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ustulina: WGunn did kind of get waylaid by the "what're you a troll?" comment.
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Nah, I'm "condescending" and "insulting". Laugh, some folks just look for fights anywhere they can find them... or perhaps it's the "good ole boy network". If you're not part of the click, then they'll malign you and put words in your mouth hoping no one catches on to their little side show act. God, I wasn't even looking for a fight but some folks have nothing better to do I guess. Thanks for the show of rational support. [:D]
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:00:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 7:05:18 PM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By Gunplay: I just thought I should give bullpup a fare shake. I hate how it looks but I like the idea. I just wanted to post an inexpensive alternative to the AUG that I would consider. We all need to settle down, hell there are so many people to be angry at...
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I think I sparked this controversy by making a [b]joke[/b] (see the [:D]) about the M17 looking like it was made from house siding and recycled 2 liter bottles. Then some folks acted like I just called their mother a "whore" and went off on a tirade to avenge their favorite toy... I guess I should know better... I'm a veteran of the boards and I know there are plenty of folks out there constantly on the prowl for a flame war... and they take every opportunity to get one going. So, my bust (even though unintentional)... slap my wrist.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:11:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunplay: I just thought I should give bullpup a fare shake. I hate how it looks but I like the idea. I just wanted to post an inexpensive alternative to the AUG that I would consider. We all need to settle down, hell there are so many people to be angry at...
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Let me explain. This is a good ole' fashioned shin kickin' contest. We do that here at AR15.com. The topic usually doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:18:24 PM EDT
"Now, where I turn the tables. Anyone who says the M17 is a good rifle is a troll or an idiot. If you claim to own one that works, you're probably just some minimum wage worker who wished they could own an AUG but had to settle for their $400 wanna-be rifle. So you feel obligated to tell the world it's actually better than the AUG... so you don't feel so bad. No since in being an asshole and go off on name calling rants. I didn't mean to rock your little world by saying the M17 looked like it was made from siding and recycled 2 liter bottles... Oh, and I included a to show I was kidding. Grow up little man." posted by wgunn Well I didn't realize you were joking. Sorry about that. Sorry you and your buddy had so much trouble with them. Hmmmm, two guns, that certainly makes for a broad sample pool. I guess you quit the military for a career in statistics. Good thing you're rich cause I can't see you earning much in that field. Secondly, the Steyr Aug doesn't cost so much cause it is so good or is so wonderful. It costs so much cause it was banned. I remember looking at them back when you could by them for under half the price of what they cost now. They're damn good guns but I bought mine in 88 for $1200. My dad has it now and occasionally shoots at cyotes with it. Last time I talked to him he said that he hasn't had any problems with it. I bought my M17S while I was anticipating taking it up to his ranch and swapping it out for the Aug. That's been over a year now and I still haven't gotten around to it. I guess the main reason is that he's left handed and the Aug was converted over for him. The M17S certainly won't do that. As far as the minimum wage comment,,, I certainly hope you amused yourself with that one. The only thing that kept me from joining up with the Air Force when I got out of college was that I'd have to have taken a 70% pay cut and get reprogrammed. Looks like it worked for you though [:D] It's really too bad that you had such a bad experience with yours and your buddies, I guess that just makes everyone else who has one that works well look pretty stupid. Maybe we are all doing something wrong like inserting the clip behind our trigger hand [:D] Oh yeah, and I got your little man right here buddy. Check it out, he's standing at attention just for you, well actually for your momma. [:D]
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:02:13 PM EDT
Oh, but more seriously mgunn,,, When I first got my M17S just by chance I picked up a couple of Thermold 30 rnd. mags since their construct material seemed similar to the lower part of the rifle itself. It was a small miracle that I did that at the time. I took the rifle to the range and inserted one of the USA mags that I've used in my AR-15s for years,,, instant feed jam. After trying several things I finally found that taking rounds out to lessen the pressure solved the problem. I then inserted a full Thermold and it worked flawlessly. I bought some more of these and have used them exclusively with no additional problems at all. Previous reviews I had read reported that the M17S used any AR-15/M-16 clips without problems. They were probably not using the USA 30 rnd. aluminum ones. Oh well... But still to this day my M17S and two of my friends who I shoot with regularly have had no problems whatsoever. We all use the Thermolds though. I haven't tested any other mags in the rifle cause I just like using the Thermolds in it so much. Plastic loves plastic. I still miss my Aug though and shooting it when I go home isn't so fun with the configuration that it's in. It's also a little scuffed up from hanging around in the back of a Ford truck. I thought it was too expensive when I bought it cause it was about double the price of a good H-Bar. If I told my dad what it is worth then he'd just get pissed off and quit using it. I don't really need it for anything and he can shoot it better than just about anything else he's tried. Damn good rifle, just not worth the price nowadays, JMO.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 12:06:02 AM EDT
In addition to the Aussies and the Austrians, I believe the Irish also use the AUG, at least their the Rangers do, their special forces. Signals
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 8:13:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By retrodog: Secondly, the Steyr Aug doesn't cost so much cause it is so good or is so wonderful.
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That's odd, I don't recall saying they were so pricey because they were so "good" or "wonderful". I guess that's you putting words in my mouth again. I do recally saying they're worth about $800 though... Oh, and my mom's dead. Do you get hard-on's for dead people very often? You're a sick bastard if you do. [:)]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 10:52:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 11:13:20 AM EDT
"Posted - 09/25/2001 : 12:13:22Originally Posted By retrodog:Secondly, the Steyr Aug doesn't cost so much cause it is so good or is so wonderful. That's odd, I don't recall saying they were so pricey because they were so "good" or "wonderful". I guess that's you putting words in my mouth again. I do recally saying they're worth about $800 though... Oh, and my mom's dead. Do you get hard-on's for dead people very often? You're a sick bastard if you do." Posted by wgunn Gees, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. That was more for general info for others. Sorry for mixing it in there. Not everything is about you though. [:d] What??? That wasn't your momma??? Oh, that's right, it was your dad in drag. Well he looked pretty hot. He said he was your momma anyway. [:d] And your momma isn't really dead. She just abandonded you before you were born. Yikes!!! [:o)] But seriously, well maybe not,,, you've been a lot of fun so "thanks". [8d] Alright raf, spoken like a truly mature individual with something better to do. Have fun at the range. I'll stick around here and keep playing with wgunn. He's a lot of fun cause I've been lonely ever since the hogs ate my brother. [xx(]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 11:16:01 AM EDT
Damned icons, they changed them. [:d] [:D] Hmmm, maybe that worked...
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 11:31:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By retrodog: What??? That wasn't your momma??? Oh, that's right, it was your dad in drag. Well he looked pretty hot. He said he was your momma anyway. [:d] And your momma isn't really dead. She just abandonded you before you were born. Yikes!!! [:o)] But seriously, well maybe not,,, you've been a lot of fun so "thanks". [8d]
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Glad you find so much humor in dead relatives. My father is dead too by the way. Hey, why don't you just cut to the chase and make fun of cancer and car crashes. Hey, why not make fun of retarded people too, or people in wheel chairs? I'm sure you'll have them rolling in the isles. You're such a witty guy! Nothing like being an ass to those who haven't warranted it or finding humor in other people's misery.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 11:57:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: What you talkin' about? The M17s is far more reliable than the AR-15/M-16 because of the cleaner piston gas system.
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I guess the Enfield L85 is more reliable than the AR-15/M-16 too, since it has the "cleaner piston gas system".
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 12:06:39 PM EDT
[|)] [|)] Okay, now you went and did it. You've put me to sleep. And you were doing so well for a while. Pack my bags, I'm going on a guilt trip. Oh boy... See you guys later, when I wake up. Everybody else, Final point without all the BS,,, The M17S is a damn good rifle if you use the right magazines. They seem to make all the difference in the world. Try the Thermolds, they work flawlessly for me and several others.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 12:53:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By retrodog: Pack my bags, I'm going on a guilt trip. Oh boy...
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You're a real class act. I'm sure your friends and family are proud, assuming you have any friends. No BS: The M17 is a cheap alternative to better thought out and executed bullpup designs such as the AUG. If you don't have the money or don't wish to spend $3k on a bullpup then get a M17 if you simply can't live without a rifle (any rifle) of such a design (that being a bullpup).
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 12:59:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: What you talkin' about? The M17s is far more reliable than the AR-15/M-16 because of the cleaner piston gas system.
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I guess the Enfield L85 is more reliable than the AR-15/M-16 too, since it has the "cleaner piston gas system".
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Laugh. But hey, according to retrodog that's "BS". He wants his message out there that his M17 works great so he's proclaimed it a great design... as long as you use Thermolds. Disregard others who have had bad experiences with them, both postban and preban. He's not bothered by such details, his opinion stands... as long as you use Thermolds.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 1:07:52 PM EDT
Oh, did I mention they seem to work ok if you use Thermolds?
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 1:34:13 PM EDT
Good Lord, I woke up just for this. Hardly worth my time. Somebody give wgunn a hug or somthing. He's obviously lonely [:D] Come on man, at least your earlier stuff was somewhat entertaining. This is just getting pathetic. You're kind of starting to remind me of a rabid dog. Everybody wants you to get better but you just keep foaming at the mouth [whacko] I'm going back to sleep now. Hey SteyrAug, wake me up if he comes up with anything worthwhile. I trust your judgement on these things. yaaawwwnn...
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 2:38:28 PM EDT
Heh, I remember when I used to get in fights like this, back in 1st grade. Seriously, this is hilarious. I thought my friends in Highschool argued over stupid things...like seating arrangements at homecoming. But I would say this one beats it all. Man...if someone wants to spend 3k on an AUG, let them. Personally, I have better things to spend my money on. They both do the same damn thing. Personally, I'd take an M17 that has tons of sight systems and lasers and crap on it over an AUG anyday. Then I would spend 900 bucks, get an AR15, trash the M17, and put all the sites and lasers and whatnot on the AR15 [:D] BTW, my car is faster than your car [-!-!-]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 3:43:05 PM EDT
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