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Posted: 9/23/2001 8:56:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2001 7:26:23 AM EST by Kalifornia]
Everytime I go to the range, I see a LEO there shooting. One time, there was a LEO who had what seemed to be a Glock 17. He was shooting from 7yds away and had a shoot-n-c on the paper. As I watched him shoot, I noticed he didn't even hit the shoot-n-c one time. He was all over the place! This surprised me. How the hell can he be a LEO and not be able to shoot right? Maybe that wasn't his duty weapon, but still. Then 1 week later, I go to the same range and notice another LEO shooting. He was shooting a .45 (don't know what kind of gun). He was using Hydra-shox. He was also shooting at 7yds and out of like 3 mags (10rds each), he only hit the 10 ring once. The other shots were way off. I again said to myself, WTF? I hope that wasn't his duty weapon either because if it was, I'd think that he could probably shoot an innocent bystande if it was farther than 7yds. This again happened another time with another LEO. I know they are LEO's because they get to pay a special $6 price for using the range when everyone else pays $10. Anyone else notice this?
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:00:05 AM EST
Yeah....some just can't shoot worth crap. Some, however, are excellent sharpshooters.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:04:52 AM EST
Don't lump us all in the can't shoot catagory! Most of the guys I know, shoot extremely well and take their art very seriously!
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:06:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:11:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:16:20 AM EST
Sorry. Didn't mean to say ALL LEO's can't shoot. I just meant most of the ones I seen shoot can't shoot fot shit! I did see one shoot very good though. He was with his kid and rapid fired a whole 7rds out of a 1911 from 7yds. All the holes touched each other. I was VERY impressed. Now if all could shoot like that...
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:16:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 9:16:17 AM EST by Stg44]
Based on his wide observation's, in a scientific random sampling of, well two officers shooting, Kalifornia came up with a grand, and sweeping conclusion. He must have been a pollster for Kalifornia's pal, Bill Klinton.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:16:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 9:17:01 AM EST by Sukebe]
Cops don't train as competition shooters. As long as your hitting center mass, shot dispersion is much more desirable than tight groups when it comes to displacing as much flesh as possible. In other words why would you want to injure the same flesh over and over again. Yes most Cops shoot about as well as the average shooter. Some shoot extremely well, some shoot very poorly. We don't carry match guns, most are not modified in any way. Remember, dept. issue weapons come from the lowest qualified bidder.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:26:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sukebe: Cops don't train as competition shooters. As long as your hitting center mass, shot dispersion is much more desirable than tight groups when it comes to displacing as much flesh as possible. In other words why would you want to injure the same flesh over and over again. Yes most Cops shoot about as well as the average shooter. Some shoot extremely well, some shoot very poorly. We don't carry match guns, most are not modified in any way. Remember, dept. issue weapons come from the lowest qualified bidder.
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True. Remember what happened in New York (or New Jersey)? How many rounds were fired at the "unarmed black guy?" How many rounds actually hit the "unarmed black guy?" Good thing this happened late at night. If it happened in the day and kids were around, I bet one of those kids would have been shot as well.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:30:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Stg44: Based on his wide observation's, in a scientific random sampling of, well two officers shooting, Kalifornia came up with a grand, and sweeping conclusion. He must have been a pollster for Kalifornia's pal, Bill Klinton.
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Actually, my wide, random observations included more than 2 officers.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:36:54 AM EST
Excuse me, the random, scientific sampling of 3 out of about 700,000. That surely makes your observations just that much more accurate.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:40:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 9:40:17 AM EST by LS1Eddie]
How many rounds were fired at the "unarmed black guy?" How many rounds actually hit the "unarmed black guy?"
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Nineteen of fourty-one, I think. I knew a former Border Patrolman years ago who could shoot rings around all but the very best. He taught himself to shoot with his left hand after he lost his right trigger finger in an accident. I wish I could shoot as well with my right hand. Eddie
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:42:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:48:43 AM EST
I think we have higher standards because we put more time into it than a normal person would. I've seen some pretty poor shooting by police officers and armed guards compared with the average shoot involving ar15.com members. However, some of our members are police officers and they seem quite capable of handling weapons. If we were choosing teams to shoot for score, I'd take almost any member here I've met over a random police officer. But the police aren't armed to have showdowns with us nice, responsible citizens. They're armed in case a problem they respond to escalates to the point of justifying deadly force. In a completely random situation, I'd choose a police officer over any random person with a gun who thinks you just thrust the gun forward while yanking on the trigger and the bullets magically make the bad guy fall down. Most police officers don't want to have to shoot someone, so they don't put in as much range time as some of us. That's a good thing. I shudder at police officers who consider there to be "acceptable losses", as if civilian law enforcement were a military operation. As long as they're not overly eager to fire their weapon, I'm not deeply concerned about which officers I can outshoot. We do have several law enforcement officers here who can shoot well, don't forget them.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 10:28:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Kalifornia: True. Remember what happened in New York (or New Jersey)? How many rounds were fired at the "unarmed black guy?" How many rounds actually hit the "unarmed black guy?" Good thing this happened late at night. If it happened in the day and kids were around, I bet one of those kids would have been shot as well.
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Try emptying your pistol as fast as you can in the dark at a target that you think is shooting back and see how you score sometime. Oh, you can't because you don't face armed people for a living. Putting holes in paper is easy when you don't fear for you life. Even the best marksman can't control the bodys automatic reactions to the stress induced by survival sitations. The truth is you don't know how you will shoot in that kind of situation until your faced with it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 10:45:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sukebe: Try emptying your pistol as fast as you can in the dark at a target that you think is shooting back and see how you score sometime. Oh, you can't because you don't face armed people for a living.
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Ah-[b]HA![/b] This is not the place to be spilling LEO only training secrets.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 11:03:20 AM EST
3/4 of them don't have any prior firearm experience.. At least I knew this was the figure when I went through training.. LEO also have 99% more wrongful shooting than CCW holders. "More Guns Less Crime" However, I know this is more due to the situations they must put themselves in.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 11:09:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 11:49:15 AM EST
What I would really like is that LEO's get PROPER training. Not just the "lets go to the range once a year and see if I can hit any piece of the target" crap. Their side arm determines if someone (hopefully not an innocent bystander) lives or dies. Yes, LEO's don't always get into a situation where they shoot at someone, but they do take their pistols out a lot. Hey, I'm just a normal person that can outshoot some LEO's. I doubt I'll ever get into the situation where I'll have to shoot someone, but LEO's can get into that situation everyday. I would feel a lot safer if they all had some good training. I'll be damned if someone in my family "acidentally" gets shot by a LEO who doesn't have the right training.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 11:50:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: As for the you never know how you will react crap. That is exactly what proper training is for. Proper instruction and PRACTICE will decided exactly how your body reacts during stressfull "survival" situations. Why do you think the military trains in "realistic" enviorments.
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The human body automatically goes into a survival mode under times of stress. By this I mean certain bodily functions that are not necessary to immediate survival either slow down or stop completely, like perspiration, peripheral vision, hearing, sense of touch, smell and taste among others so the brain can process the information needed to survive the situation. That's what causes tunnel vision, tunnel hearing and the appearance of slow motion action. I have experienced all of those things. If you've ever fired a .45 auto without hearing protection, your ears ring, I didn't hear a thing. Clearly you have never been in a gun on gun confrontation. Training is training, the real thing is the real thing and can not, no matter how hard you train be reproduced in a training environment. I've been in training and I've been in the real thing.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 11:52:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By Stg44: Excuse me, the random, scientific sampling of 3 out of about 700,000. That surely makes your observations just that much more accurate.
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How about the LEO's that out of 41 shots fired, only hit their target 19 times? Do they count? How about the ones going after Beck shooting the wrong house. Do they count too? So whats that... 3+4+?? out of 700,000. There are more as well, but my scientific research is not done yet. So excuse me sir.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 11:55:05 AM EST
Most of the Cops I know, want to be cops. A few of them are gun enthusists who know how to shoot, but for most, carrying a gun is a part of the 'job', not a primary issue, although in my opinion, it should be a main concern of any officer to know how to use the tool that has the ability to take life to the best of his ability. A lot of the guys on the special response teams are there because they care, and know a little more about marksmanship than the average officer in my opinion. On the "lowest bidder" comments? I carry a HK USP-C .45. It will easily group 1.5" at 7 yards. I doubt a glock will do much different. _fs
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 11:59:58 AM EST
I guess that may be the case in Kalifornia. But in other parts of the USA I have seen many, but not all LEOs who can shoot with the best of them. At least those Kali LEOs go to the range to try and improve! Seems like a lot is screwed up out there LOL
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:07:09 PM EST
I agree by far, MOST can't shoot... last stats I heard were when cops shoot at a suspect they hit with a pathetic 52% of the rounds they fire. When an armed civilian shoots, they hit with 90 something % of the rounds they fire. A good example of this was the recent shooting in Sacramento CA where a pig was shot and they ended up burning the suspects home to the ground (Must be instructed by the same JBT's that janet sterno used). Several rounds hit Neighbors homes! THEY COULDN'T"T HIT A HOUSE! This was from the street for gods sake! I could hit a house size target from 200 yards with my revolver.. EASY! These same fools (i have no respect for doughnut munchers) will be the first ones shouting that we civilians should be disarmed. Cops are only good for drawing little chalk outlines around victims. I wouldn't waist time calling them till it's over.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:09:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:10:40 PM EST
continuation of last post.... I had a friend that is a cop. During the Re-certifications, he frequently invited me to come train on the F.A.T.S. they used. This gave me the opportunity to watch MANY cops shoot. I am NOT the best shot in the world (not even close!).. but only 1 cop would shoot better than me consistently. I know there are probably more, but I've never seen them....
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:28:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By shotar: Filling the same whole twice does not usually increase the stopping effect of the situation
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This is true, but this is not a good argument to support the poor marksmanship of an officer. A properly trained individual, KNOWS where his bullets are going, with every squeeze of his trigger. A properly trained individual, KNOWS when he DOES NOT KNOW where his bullets are going. And knows he has missed his intented target. An improperly trained individual, doesn't know where his bullets are going, period. He doesn't know if he will hit his intended target. In Iaido (the art of sword drawing), a master can cut an opponent in half, in the same stroke he draws his sword with. Swords are tools, just like guns. In the hands of some people, they seem primitive, in others, graceful beyond words. I'm sure I'll get some flames for this one... hehe.. _ FS
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:56:19 PM EST
C'mon people even an idiot should be able to hit a target from 7 Yards. As for the actual shootout, I would tend to agree that it is hard to hit a target when the target is shooting at you. Now, that said a range doesn't shoot back so why can't an officer at 7 Yards hit a target. I'm noit asking for bullseyes. Hell, when I empty out 10-9mm rounds at 7 Yards I don't hit the bullseye. But, at least I hit the vital areas of the target. At 15 Yard I could and have hit the target 80% even under rapid fire. As for a house, I could hit it easily with no problem and anybody should be able to. Now, I have shot Sig Sauer 9mm & Glock 9mm and never had a problem hitting a target at 25 Yards under slow aimed fire. At 15 Yards I can hit the target under rapid fir 3/4 of the shots or better. At 7 Yards, I can hit 90-100% of my shots even under rapid fire. I have done neck shots with a Sig Sauer 9mm at 15 Yards. As for Carbines, I'd like to know how accurate the average officer is with a carbine. I have my 9mm Carbine and can easily place slow aimed shots at 100 Yards and Quickly aimed shots at 50 Yards. I haven't been able to get to a range that has more than 100 Yard Range. If officers could shoot better with carbines then every officer should be issued one. How about M4s with Reflex sights. I'd like to see them miss at 7 Yards with one of those.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 1:08:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 1:24:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:18:36 PM EST
For the most part, that is Truth.....
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:35:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Vampire: I agree by far, MOST can't shoot... last stats I heard were when cops shoot at a suspect they hit with a pathetic 52% of the rounds they fire. When an armed civilian shoots, they hit with 90 something % of the rounds they fire.
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Cops hit with 51% accuracy in shootings (close) Bad guys (not "armed civilians") have about a 91% hit rate, with their first rounds. I have not seen any stats, ever about the accuracy rate of the armed citizen in lawful use of force incidents. Their rates are probably about the same, because they will be reacting to essentially the same situations (oh crap, they're shooting at me). The difference is not in skill (most bad huys are untrained). It is because the bad guy almost always makes the decision to start the engagment, and the police officer has to react through he fire. This has everything to do with stress reactions and has nothing to do with marksmanship ability. And leave your "pig" comments at home, junior.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:36:01 PM EST
Well based on what I see at the range in the few weeks proceeding deer season I'd say most gun owners can't shoot straight either. I would be willing to bet money that if you took a random sampling of LEO's and gun owners from the population at large and took them to the range, you would find LEO's are better shots. just my $.02. and I am not in any way associated with LE.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:48:32 PM EST
An article on the shooting of Mr.Diallo written by Dr. Martin Fackler. [url]http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/2/28/60241[/url] Might want to read it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:50:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:41:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Vampire: A good example of this was the recent shooting in Sacramento CA where a pig was shot and they ended up burning the suspects home to the ground. These same fools (i have no respect for doughnut munchers) will be the first ones shouting that we civilians should be disarmed.
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I don't normally (actually never) get upset by someones comments on this board. However, I respect your right to say them Vampire. But before you call us "pigs" , remember that some (actually many) of the members of this board are the same "doughnut munchers" that are fighting for the RKBA for people like yourself. Kiwi
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 4:11:20 PM EST
Vampire, the Officer in Sacrmento didn't deserve to die. He was responding to gunfire. Granted that gunfire was from the BATF idiots (sorry, I have no respect for ATF) As for your comments about LEOs, I know many good Local, County, and State LEOs. If you treat a cop with respect you will get respect back. When the maintenence guy set off my alarm, a Deputy Sheriff responded. He showed up and I explained what happened. A few minutes later after showing I wasn't a robber, the Deputy left. Now, can you imagine what would have happened if I had done what Vampire surely would have. At least I know, he will soon end up in the back of Police car when he shows his udder contempt for a LEO. For example, when I get pulled over and show respect for the Officer I get a warning. This has happened 5 times. Each time I was respectful and he returned my respect by letting me off with a warning.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 5:16:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 5:36:06 PM EST
This is another one of those "Don't lump us all in the same pile" posts. I was at a tactical handgun match at 10:00 this morning, I think that makes the 49th match this year to date. All of which have been "gun and run" type tactical handgun, shotgun, or rifle matches, more than several requiring the use of more than one of the above. If I remember correctly, I shot about 53 last year and will probably beat that by a good number this year. Some of us do shoot a little more and a little better than "average". By the way, every match I shoot is with the same gear that I use every day.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 5:52:03 PM EST
I belong to a gun club.The leo's that belong are very good shooters but they shoot in a match every week and practice in between. I have watched other leo's shoot and they weren't as good.So I think a person need to practice,practice,practice. Thanks, Slayer
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 6:25:15 PM EST
What this is, is another gross generalization. It is the same kind of generalization that gunowners whail about when we are attacked after a shooting. Generalizations are just that. They are not true, point out the persons predjuices and preconceptions. I am an LEO, and a pistol master, rifle master, firearms instructor, Colt M16A2/AR15 armorer, Glock armoere, Beretta armorer. I am not so full of myself that I think I can outshoot everyone in every circumstance. I can shoot, with most folks most of the time. The advantage I have over most, is I have been shot at in anger before. I know how I will react in most circumstances. Do you? Have you been there, done that? Just because you can shoot on the range at paper does not mean a damn thing in the real world. When your job makes it likely that any shooting you will be involved in, will most likely be in the dark, by suprise. You are reacting to the other person, who normally is within 7 yards, and you are reacting to his/her threat, then we'll see what your hit probability is. Considering the usual circumstances of LEO shootings, we do quite well. Could we do better? Sure, but until you are faced with the same circumstance, hold your judgment.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 7:50:23 PM EST
I agree stg44, BUT, if they can't hit shit at the range, what makes you think they'll do better being shot at? They'll probably do better ducking behind a car spaying and praying. At least I know where the hole is going to end up after an aimed shot. The ones I seen seemed like they just point (not aim) and shoot. Like I said, I feel SOME (not all) LEO's need a little more practice than others. I bet you can shoot really well. Am I talking about you? No. Am I talking about some LEO that can barely hit a target at 7yds? Hell yeah.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:35:33 PM EST
What happens, when you have an employee of the state, paid $30k a year, and he gets to shoot a gun? Give up? THEY USUALLY WILL SUCK AT IT!!! It's like paying surgeons $60k a year and expecting them to work 80-100 work weeks. You won't get any good laborers. Look, I don't want to trash LEOs here on this board, but what do people expect when you have underpaid employees with too many responsibilities/duties on their hands? Do you think they'll take the time out with their own $$$ to learn how to shoot like Jeff Cooper? themao [chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 9:52:30 PM EST
at a range i go to often the state and local LEO use most days of the week, so we watch them shoot.... And we have a saying... when being shot at by a LEO run straight! if you try to dodge back and forth you might stop a round.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 10:20:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 10:21:17 PM EST by Hellraiser]
Reminds me of a COPS show where this female officer, who seemed like an embarrassment to all police officers everywhere, failed to qualify and her handgun had multiple jams which she just laughed off with "oops, I guess I should keep my gun clean", or some similar dumbshit crap. Imagine, someone who carries a badge and gun and can't even keep the gun in functioning condition. She's a walking statisitic, just waiting to catch a bullet. Shouldn't have people like that on the force. I have a few ex-USMC cop friends, they are very much the gun-nut and can shoot with the best of them. One of them was involved in a shooting last year where my friend and his partner were "attacked" by a nutcase with a knife (inside a small bedroom). My friends' partner emptied 15 rounds without hitting the perp even once, at less than 10 feet. My friend shot twice and got two hits center mass, dropping and killing the perp. I can tell ya he is not very happy with his partner's shooting skills. Funniest thing I have seen in a while though was a local SWAT guy who was BSing us with his shooting skills and then at the range he couldn't get his Glock 19 to go through a single mag without jamming, and the shots that didn't jam were way off target. Then he breaks out with his 1000 yard sniper rifle with major optics and can't even get on paper at 500 yards, which me and my friends were easily doing with an AR-15 and iron sights, what an idiot, kept blaming his equipment, and he is a SWAT sniper no less, we laughed him off the range.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 6:41:23 AM EST
Most of the inflammatory remarks about LEO's do get old. There is some truth to the posts, everyone agrees with that. The problem I have is this: There are a lot of members here that are LEO's. That being said, do you think that the members here are the inept, anti gun, anti civil rights types? The LEO's on this site are the ones that support your rights and enjoy the same interests as many of you(us). Most of the members here are "gun nuts" or they would'nt be here. So what is the purpose of making challenging or derogatory remarks towards LEO's that you know will only be read by the ones that are your friends? It makes me want to strike back at the 15 year old keyboard kommandoes trolls who start this crap.(verbally of course). But I suppose there is really no reason to get into a pissing contest with an ignorant kid. It's a no win situation.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:02:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By seb127: It makes me want to strike back at the 15 year old keyboard kommandoes trolls who start this crap.(verbally of course). But I suppose there is really no reason to get into a pissing contest with an ignorant kid. It's a no win situation.
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Next time you see on the news that an unproperly trained LEO accidentally kills someone (maybe because of their lack of shooting skills), then call me an ignorant kid.[:\] I believe most, if not all, LEO's on this board can shoot and I wouldn't worry about them being in a shooting situation. Like I said before, I am NOT talking about them. Maybe their partners or whomever, but not them. They need training from their department and not just range time with their own money. So what would you think seb127 if you see in the news that a LEO accidentally shoots someone just standing around behind whomever he/she is shooting at? Would you think its OK? Do you think they need proper training? Oh forget it, its a no win situation. Nevermind.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:04:28 AM EST
Do you guys feel I'm bashing LEO's with this thread? If so, why?
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:18:16 AM EST
Kalifornia; It is my fault that I did'nt clarify my first post. I'll give it another shot. My comments about the 15 year old were'nt directed directly towards you but to the types that seem to get involved in these types of posts. I agree that adequate training is a must and is lacking in a lot of departments. I feel the same way most everyone else feels when I see a report of a "bad shooting". Maybe worse. The comment about a no win situation was in reference to getting involved in a us versus them debate in the first place. I'm an us and a them. And proud of both. That being said, I will offer you my apology if I offended you and ask you to understand that I stand by my original post. I still think it's valid and true.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 7:19:43 AM EST
Do you suppose the title, "LEO's Can't Shoot, might have something to do with it??? I do agree with you that many cops can't shoot. But a lot of us can, and we resent being labled with the others. Just like all gunowners get pissed when we are grouped with some nutcase who shoots up a school, church,..fill in the blank. If you can offer a solution, I would sure like to hear it. This is something that trainers can't seem to agree on. We are still not that far removed from the PPC type course. Many departments don't have either the range facility, or the money to train to the level I would like to see. Want your taxes raised so that I can shoot more often? It is not a simple solution. It costs a lot of money in overtime, ammo isn't free, and you have to have an adequate range. Turning/moving target set ups cost a ton of money. Then you got EPA impact statements from all the bullets, and on and on...
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 8:06:52 AM EST
Thanks for changing it from LEO's can't shoot, to Some LEO's can't shoot.
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