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Posted: 9/21/2001 9:52:17 PM EST
Are Americans of Arab decent really that surprised that almost all other Americans are racially profiling them? I mean come on? Until a large group of blonde haired, blue eyed, fair skinned, Nazi looking MO Fo's hijack four planes and run them into downtown NYC and DC that's how it's going to be. I sympathize with them but what do the expect? If they're that pissed off help the US weed out these terrorist. Who better to infiltrate the cells then a bunch of Americans with middle eastern decent. Am I totally out of bounds by saying something like this? Or should I be more sensitive?
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 9:59:44 PM EST
Methinks it's more of a human nature... ...with the high profile rape case in Okinawa, do you think the local Japanese give a second thought to US Servicemen posted there?
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:06:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 10:10:40 PM EST by LAcop]
Right on Doorgunner !!![^] But if thou do that which is evil, BE AFRAID: for he beareth not the sword in vain...Romans 13:4 Pat [%(]
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:18:57 PM EST
For Example [url]http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010921/us/attacks_passengers_removed_1.html[/url]
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:28:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 10:27:04 PM EST by mattja]
Three of the men, however, told reporters in Salt Lake City that they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board. The men refused to give their names and said they felt discriminated against.
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I was just thinking about this the other day -- how I would react to seeing a group of Middle Eastern men boarding the same flight as myself. I came to the conclusion that I would refuse to fly with them. Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel. Now, if they spoke up and with no accent said, "Dude, this is bullshit!" I would not have a problem because I'd figure they are just some guys from Huntington Beach with Middle Eastern parents.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:34:47 PM EST
I've gotta fly on Sunday and it's going to be strange. I mean I I walk on to a plane and see a Middle eastern looking male sitting in a seat it's going to be REAL hard not to eyeball him as I walk past.[>:/]
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 12:46:42 AM EST
No more surprised than when cabbies refuse to pick up blacks because they're more likely to rob, kill, or skip paying the cabbie. Do you guys make excuses for that behavior, too?
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 12:52:52 AM EST
Probably not that surprised, but I'll bet they were hoping for more less.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 1:04:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: No more surprised than when cabbies refuse to pick up blacks because they're more likely to rob, kill, or skip paying the cabbie. Do you guys make excuses for that behavior, too?
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I don't recall making excuses for anyone's behavior, including my own.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 1:31:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: No more surprised than when cabbies refuse to pick up blacks because they're more likely to rob, kill, or skip paying the cabbie. Do you guys make excuses for that behavior, too?
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Is that similar to when I refused to stroll around the Belltown district of Seattle because of the roving bands of young black men beating people up?
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 2:54:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By doorgunner84: Are Americans of Arab decent really that surprised that almost all other Americans are racially profiling them? I mean come on? Until a large group of blonde haired, blue eyed, fair skinned, Nazi looking MO Fo's hijack four planes and run them into downtown NYC and DC that's how it's going to be. I sympathize with them but what do the expect? If they're that pissed off help the US weed out these terrorist. Who better to infiltrate the cells then a bunch of Americans with middle eastern decent. Am I totally out of bounds by saying something like this? Or should I be more sensitive?
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Yes. They have been taught that something like that should not happen. The hijackers were well aware of how to blend in and had made notes on it. And as to helping us weed them out. Hmm. If you saw the press conference of that muslim american anti-discrimination group you would expect something but not that they would...bring in a hysterical aclu type lawyer who rants and raves about how wrong it is for the FBI to question people and how those interviewed SHOULD NOT COOPERATE WITH THE GOVERNMENT. One is judged by the friends one keeps (or at least invite to speak on ones behalf). Just a bunch of loyal americans.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 2:55:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By mattja:
Three of the men, however, told reporters in Salt Lake City that they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board. The men refused to give their names and said they felt discriminated against.
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I was just thinking about this the other day -- how I would react to seeing a group of Middle Eastern men boarding the same flight as myself. I came to the conclusion that I would refuse to fly with them. Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel. Now, if they spoke up and with no accent said, "Dude, this is bullshit!" I would not have a problem because I'd figure they are just some guys from Huntington Beach with Middle Eastern parents.
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Dude, if they all appear to be together, sit as straight as a board, are dressed as american yuppies, do not speak or make any eye contact... watch out! :)
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 3:41:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By shooter69:
Originally Posted By mattja:
Three of the men, however, told reporters in Salt Lake City that they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board. The men refused to give their names and said they felt discriminated against.
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I was just thinking about this the other day -- how I would react to seeing a group of Middle Eastern men boarding the same flight as myself. I came to the conclusion that I would refuse to fly with them. Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel. Now, if they spoke up and with no accent said, "Dude, this is bullshit!" I would not have a problem because I'd figure they are just some guys from Huntington Beach with Middle Eastern parents.
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Dude, if they all appear to be together, sit as straight as a board, are dressed as american yuppies, do not speak or make any eye contact... watch out! :)
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No kidding, they could be Feds! ha ha
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 3:59:57 AM EST
Oh geez fella's. We are coming dangerously close to stepping over the line and appearing to be racist. Or perhaps we are on the brink of sounding dangerously close to appearing like realist. Face it. If someone with lilly white skin and an American accent were living in Afganastan or even Pakastan right now or even just going to school there they would know to expect this and get the Hell out until this was over. Politcal correctness does not, contrary to popular belief, mean one has to abandon all common sense.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 4:18:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gunslinger: Oh geez fella's. We are coming dangerously close to stepping over the line and appearing to be racist. Or perhaps we are on the brink of sounding dangerously close to appearing like realist. Face it. If someone with lilly white skin and an American accent were living in Afganastan or even Pakastan right now or even just going to school there they would know to expect this and get the Hell out until this was over. Politcal correctness does not, contrary to popular belief, mean one has to abandon all common sense.
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OOOOOOHHHHH, but according to the left we must abandon all common sense, wether its this attack or gun control, or anything that has to do with freedom, otherwise we are racist, or homophobic, or paranoid or a member of the vast right wing conspiracy.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 4:20:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 5:36:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By mattja:
Three of the men, however, told reporters in Salt Lake City that they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board. The men refused to give their names and said they felt discriminated against.
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I was just thinking about this the other day -- how I would react to seeing a group of Middle Eastern men boarding the same flight as myself. I came to the conclusion that I would refuse to fly with them. Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel.
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If you wish to feel and think that way, mattja, that's your right and privilege; it's a free country. However, since [b]you[/b] feel that way, [b]you[/b] should leave the flight and ask to be seated in another flight. What are these guys supposed to do if they need to travel, walk?
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 5:52:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2001 5:55:11 AM EST by ckapsl]
Was there any [b]evidence[/b] that these people should have been booted off the flight? Did any of the following occur? There were seen possessing knives or other weapons or even other potential weapons like nail clippers. [whacko] They had flight plans or flight manuals. They seemed unusually interested in the cockpit area, the pilots, the crew, the airplane. They seemed edgy and nervous. They were carrying portraits of Osama bin Laden. Their passports / travel documents were not in order. They seemed hostile to the other passengers. ar10er is correct that we should not abandon common sense. If some of the above were true, I could understand if they were singled out for special scrutiny, even if they were singled out over other non-Arabs exhibiting the same behaviour. But nothing in the news reports says that they were. Maybe they were singled out just because they were Arab. What happened was not common sense. It was paranioa.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 6:17:11 AM EST
In our community the population is 20% Hispanic. 70% of the crime is commited by Hispanics. Treating a Hispanic with a little more care is prudent not wrong. It is a fine line. Please don't get me wrong. While doing traffic watch from the ground we have given rides to many Hispanic motorists and I treat them friendly. Caution is up though. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 7:00:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2001 7:02:36 AM EST by shooter69]
"Was there any [b]evidence[/b] that these people should have been booted off the flight? Did any of the following occur?" Apart from the box-cutters the things you mention didn't happen the day of the hijackings. They had done dry runs and were well prepared, and not hostile, nervous, etc. The opposite in fact. Documentation all in order. "They were carrying portraits of Osama bin Laden." Allright you get the black humor award for the day. If it was only that easy...
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 7:05:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By Robbie: Methinks it's more of a human nature... ...with the high profile rape case in Okinawa, do you think the local Japanese give a second thought to US Servicemen posted there?
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I am told that they do with our black service men. As this has happened again and again. Like you said, human nature.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 7:07:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2001 7:56:24 AM EST by AmOTramp]
I sympathize with Arabs, but their people took advantage of our hospitality. How are we supposed to feel? Are Arabs asking us to forget about Arab terrorists that are undoubtedly still living here? How does that work? Are we to stick our heads up our butts to appease once again. I think being paranoid at this time is quite normal, especially after witnessing such a horrific crime. It's not a racial issue, it's self-preservation. I have no axe to grind with anyone, but reality is reality. I will not be rude or offensive to anyone because of his race, but I am concerned at this time.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 8:37:06 AM EST
I've never considered myself a racist. I've had friends that are Native American, Black, Oriental, and Hispanic. I've also known people of these colors as well as my own that I would avoid at almost all cost. The problem I have is in the stats. I've been accused of stereotyping before, but have you ever looked-up the definition? It usually boils down to a set of common traits or behaviors shared by a group of people. To me, a stereotype is something a group has done to itself over time, and not an idea that is born overnight. Keeping this in mind, I will not bother people of arab or similar descent, but I will be wary of them. If anyone should be upset about this, it should be those of the same color who are against this kind of behavior. If these thoughts make me a racist, then those who would label me can do so to satisfy themselves. It doesn't change anything, and it keeps me and mine safe. PS -- What do think its like to be White over there right now? I don't think you get treated the same when your the minority wherever you are until you prove your value and trustworthyness to others.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 8:39:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2001 8:39:57 AM EST by doorgunner84]
Originally Posted By Sweep: It's a real fine line between all this being a defense mechanism and just being dumb or scared though. Where's that line at? With the recent events it's probably a lot closer than it really needs to be.
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I'd say it's better to be careful and alive the careless and dead. But that's just me. Once again I sympathize with these people. It's got to be very hard for them and I'll probably never know what they are feeling right now. But damn, How am I supposed to feel?
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 12:36:08 PM EST
I have to say, I don't really care, if I fly and my wife and daughters are on the plane, you can take PC and shove it, I will get off the plane. Or have them off. Wrong? Well maybe, but I will be wrong everyday to protect mine. Just because I am pernoied does not mean they are not out to get me!
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 1:08:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
Originally Posted By mattja:
Three of the men, however, told reporters in Salt Lake City that they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board. The men refused to give their names and said they felt discriminated against.
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I was just thinking about this the other day -- how I would react to seeing a group of Middle Eastern men boarding the same flight as myself. I came to the conclusion that I would refuse to fly with them. Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel.
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If you wish to feel and think that way, mattja, that's your right and privilege; it's a free country. However, since [b]you[/b] feel that way, [b]you[/b] should leave the flight and ask to be seated in another flight. What are these guys supposed to do if they need to travel, walk?
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Hop on a camel. Sorry, your own attempt at sarcasm in another post inspired me.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 1:12:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By Boomer: Is that similar to when I refused to stroll around the Belltown district of Seattle because of the roving bands of young black men beating people up?
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You clearly were not Doing Your Part. You should have been down there walking around with your pocket rocket in your pocket. [:D] Disclaimer: due to contractual obligations with my (former) employer, I, of course, would never, ever have considered doing such a thing.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 3:13:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
Originally Posted By mattja:
Three of the men, however, told reporters in Salt Lake City that they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board. The men refused to give their names and said they felt discriminated against.
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I was just thinking about this the other day -- how I would react to seeing a group of Middle Eastern men boarding the same flight as myself. I came to the conclusion that I would refuse to fly with them. Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel.
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If you wish to feel and think that way, mattja, that's your right and privilege; it's a free country. However, since [b]you[/b] feel that way, [b]you[/b] should leave the flight and ask to be seated in another flight. What are these guys supposed to do if they need to travel, walk?
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That's exactly what I would do -- I'd try to get another flight. However, according to the news others are taking more drastic measures, such as forcing the Arab looking guys to take another flight. In fact, there was a sort of rebellion a couple of days ago that forced the removal of some Arab looking gentlemen. It appears FAA regulations require that if the presence of certain individuals cause alarm among the other passengers, these individuals must be removed and scheduled on a different flight. So, this was the case. It’s too bad it came to this. But if the rescheduling of passengers puts everyone’s mind at ease, many of which are uncomfortable with flying to begin with, then so be it. Are you saying you would not be concerned? If so, you must be much braver than the average Joe. Oh, and thanks for reaffirming my freedom of thought and speech. That was nice of you.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 9:01:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By mattja:
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
Originally Posted By mattja: Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel.
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If you wish to feel and think that way, mattja, that's your right and privilege; it's a free country. However, since [b]you[/b] feel that way, [b]you[/b] should leave the flight and ask to be seated in another flight.
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Oh, and thanks for reaffirming my freedom of thought and speech. That was nice of you.
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mattja, I was not being a wiseass in "reaffirming" your freedom of thought and speech; rather, since [b]you yourself[/b] seemed to be apologizing for what you were saying (see above), I felt that I should remind everyone that each of us has the absolute right to say what is on our mind. If you took this the wrong way, I am sorry. That was not my intention. Quoted from the scanty Yahoo! News article:
The three - a man, his brother and a friend - said they had flown Thursday morning from Philadelphia, where they went through extensive security. In Minneapolis, they were questioned at length before they were allowed to board the connecting flight, they said. When the other passengers refused to fly if the three remained on board, Northwest required them to get off, they said.
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So here is my question to everyone: It looks like these guys already were given a lot of special scrutiny [b]before[/b] they got on the flight. Then some passengers objected, and they got booted off. What would you have these people do? Surely we can all agree that there are at least some Arab Americans who are not remotely connected to terrorism. What more could these people have done, affirmatively or otherwise, to reassure everyone that they were not terrorists? Like Planerench said, being prudent and cautious is not a bad thing. But it can cross a line into hysteria. When hysteria happens, we need to call it as such.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 9:14:41 PM EST
ckapsl, thanks, and sorry, my fault. I thought you were being sarcastic. I must be paranoid. :) I heard those guys refused to give their names. The media did not mention to whom they refused to give their names, so there's no way to tell if they were being stubborn, cooperative, etc. Perhaps people are oversensitive these days, but I don't blame anyone for being worried. I guess it comes down to how much you trust the airlines to provide for your security. The US carriers have obviously dropped the ball in this regard and now people who would normally depend on them to do their job are discovering that they have to take charge of their own security. So they make a scene and try to get these guys rescheduled to another flight. I'm sure things will quiet down eventually, but in the mean time people will be a little worried. I don't know what these guys can do to convince their fellow travelers that there are no bad intensions in the works. It's totally unfair, I know, but with all the stuff going on in Israel, and the fact the terrorists obviously do not value their own lives, it's understandable why people are paranoid.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 9:15:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By shooter69:
Originally Posted By ckapsl: What are these guys supposed to do if they need to travel, walk?
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Hop on a camel. Sorry, your own attempt at sarcasm in another post inspired me.
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Ummmm, shooter69, there is a device known as rhetoric. It can often be confused with sarcasm. For instance, if I said that you were masterful at detecting the difference between the two, I would be sarcastic. [;D] Ok, peace. It is not and was not my intention to be sarcastic and insulting. Part of the problem with online discussions is that mood and tone are not transmitted. Let's keep that in mind.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 9:19:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: You clearly were not Doing Your Part. You should have been down there walking around with your pocket rocket in your pocket. [:D]
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Yeah, I can already see the headlines that would follow: GUN NUT SEEKS VIGILANTE JUSTICE VIGILANTE CONVICTED OF SECOND DEGREE MURDER IN SHOOTING DEATHS OF YOUNG MEN BELLTOWN SHOOTER CONVICTED OF VIOLATING VICTIM'S CIVIL LIBERTIES BELLTOWN SHOOTER FOUND GUILTY IN CIVIL COURT, MUST PAY 10 MILLION IN RESTITUTION TO EACH OF HIS VICTIM'S FAMILIES. No thanks, I think I'd just as soon find a better neighborhood to hang out in.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 9:56:46 PM EST
Take a page from the anti-gunners: "Criminals have guns, therefore people with guns are criminals."
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:45:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By warlord: Take a page from the anti-gunners: "Criminals have guns, therefore people with guns are criminals."
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I used to work with a Ukrainian woman who said that. So I said if they had guns, perhaps the Russians wouldn't walk all over them like they did. She just had a blank look in her eye.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:27:59 AM EST
I believe my right to life exceeds their right to not be offended. When the decent moslems reject the actions of the vermin among them they will have fewer problems like this. So far, they have not done a very good job of it. The burden is on them, not us. At present I would not fly with them.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:23:28 AM EST
Rew said "Just because I am paranoid does not mean they are [i][b]not[/b][/i] out to get me!" I love it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:44:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
Originally Posted By mattja:
Three of the men, however, told reporters in Salt Lake City that they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board. The men refused to give their names and said they felt discriminated against.
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hell they walk everywhere in their homeland!I got an idea,a new company BUDGET CAMEL RENTALS!!!!!!! I was just thinking about this the other day -- how I would react to seeing a group of Middle Eastern men boarding the same flight as myself. I came to the conclusion that I would refuse to fly with them. Call me racist, call me paranoid, but that's how I feel.
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If you wish to feel and think that way, mattja, that's your right and privilege; it's a free country. However, since [b]you[/b] feel that way, [b]you[/b] should leave the flight and ask to be seated in another flight. What are these guys supposed to do if they need to travel, walk?
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Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:57:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: No more surprised than when cabbies refuse to pick up blacks because they're more likely to rob, kill, or skip paying the cabbie. Do you guys make excuses for that behavior, too?
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Yes, especially if you are a cabbie who has pick up a black, then been robbed, shot, or beaten to within an inch of your life. The instinct to survive is a strong one.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 4:01:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gunslinger: Oh geez fella's. We are coming dangerously close to stepping over the line and appearing to be racist. Or perhaps we are on the brink of sounding dangerously close to appearing like realist. Face it. If someone with lilly white skin and an American accent were living in Afganastan or even Pakastan right now or even just going to school there they would know to expect this and get the Hell out until this was over. Politcal correctness does not, contrary to popular belief, mean one has to abandon all common sense.
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If everytime you walked up to a Cocker Spaniel they attack you, and so you become afraid and overly cautious of Cockers, is that dog discrimination?
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