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Posted: 9/20/2001 10:47:10 AM EDT
This kinda raised the ol blood pressure a notch or two. [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52675-2001Sep18.html[/url]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:15:49 AM EDT
Ya, I really should not have read it, I have a physical coming up.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:26:52 AM EDT
I'm all for remaining objective, but if this article is what objective is, then the hell with being objective...
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:33:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 11:37:21 AM EDT by sherm8404]
Gotta do the caveat thing again. -I am a member of the US Navy Reserve as a corpsman woth a Marine unit. I will gladly do what is asked of me by my president, and with zeal. The attack is patently wrong, inhuman, and the perps should be hunted down to the last conspirator and killed. I believe this is truly the greatest country in the world. But the article really isn't THAT bad. Many people should realize that the attack isn't a strike against freedom, the American way of life, mom, apple pie, and baseball. It's against American foreign policy, it's against the ugly American. And belive me Americans don't really endear themselves on such a grand scale to the rest of the world. Much of American foreign policy is about how we can "Americanize" other countries, bring them the gifts of our technological genius, and show them a better way. Not everybody likes this. Not everybody wants this. Quote from the article: [b]I believe there are psychopaths throughout the world who are exploiting the suffering of the poor -- suffering that Americans too often ignore. [/b] Not only do we ignore suffering, we prop up puppet dictatorships(look at Central America in the 70's and 80's)that commit human rights violations against their own people that are convienently ignored til we find an "enemy" worth accusing them of the same injustices. I belive we tend to put our noses where it just doesn't belong, and selectively too. We "Lifted the yoke of Tyranny from the necks of the Kuwati people" but couldn't lift a finger while millions are killed and starved to death across the African continent in tribal and governmental civil wars that are about nothing more than ethnic cleansing and power struggles. Just look at the war involving the Tutsis and Hutus if you need some ideas on where we could truly intervene and come down on the side of rightousness. If you've never read "The Ugly American" and think you can speak knowledgebly on American foreign policy you would do well to read it. It's a fictional work about the country of Sarkhan in SE Asia but wholly based on true stories of the follies of the American diplomatic community of the 1950's. And with 20/20 hindsight, it proved frightfully prophetic in regards to the Vietnam war. I am certainly no worldly traveler. I've been to China (4 weeks and 2 weeks) England (2 weeks) Zimbabwe/Zambia (4 weeks) Curacao (3 weeks)and I won't even count Canadian trips. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that not everyone loves Uncle Sam or the hand of friendship he extends when there's something in it for him. We do some great things overseas too. Don't get me wrong. But there are plenty of reasons for people hate us. I've never seen protests against Monday Night Football, Happy Hours, well stocked supermarkets and big cars in a foreign land. If you truly believe that they hate us because we're free, then you've got a pretty simple view of the world, and not a lot of awareness about how we're perceived overseas. Sherm
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:57:35 AM EDT
You are going to be labled an "isolationist" and accused of spreading "tin foil hat conspiracy theories" for saying that.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:05:15 PM EDT
This thread keeps re-emerging with new twists and turns, so I have improvised the following boilerplate response to them, as follows: re: unprovoked attacks vs. justifiable acts of war Our Federal gov'ts foreign meddlinging has just as great a potential to anger others as our Federal gov'ts domestic meddling has the potential to anger us. Loss of freedoms caused by our Federal gov't is not really any different based on the locale of the person losing their freedoms. The difference?? We happen to believe that there is NO justification for killing innocents in order to get our gov'ts attention. These foreign powers do not. Oh, one other difference - while I share the opinion that America is STILL the greatest nation the world has ever known, some of us are completely unwilling to even consider the possibility that our gov't may be doing something wrong re: its foreign policy. Which is odd, given our general consensus that our own gov't is QUITE capable of evil in removing OUR freedoms thru its domestic policy.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:15:34 PM EDT
Imbro My grandfather had a wrapping paper company. My tin foil hats have always been made with the finest aluminum wraping foil. Gold, silver, blue foil with snow men, and X-mas patterns too! I will gladly isolate my self in a corner with my AR, colorful tinfoil hat and my conspiracy thoeries. Garandman = smartman
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:19:17 PM EDT
Just look at the war involving the Tutsis and Hutus if you need some ideas on where we could truly intervene and come down on the side of rightousness.
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And just which faction is it that represents the "side of righteousness" in Rwanda?
We "Lifted the yoke of Tyranny from the necks of the Kuwati people" but couldn't lift a finger while millions are killed and starved to death across the African continent in tribal and governmental civil wars that are about nothing more than ethnic cleansing and power struggles.
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As I recall, we did quite a bit of finger lifting in Somalia. Would you like to repeat that experiment on a larger scale?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:19:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sherm8404: Imbro My grandfather had a wrapping paper company. My tin foil hats have always been made with the finest aluminum wraping foil. Gold, silver, blue foil with snow men, and X-mas patterns too! I will gladly isolate my self in a corner with my AR, colorful tinfoil hat and my conspiracy thoeries. Garandman = smartman
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tin hats with snowmen??? i'm so jealous!!!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:29:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 12:31:12 PM EDT by sherm8404]
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Just look at the war involving the Tutsis and Hutus if you need some ideas on where we could truly intervene and come down on the side of rightousness.
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And just which faction is it that represents the "side of righteousness" in Rwanda?
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Neither, and that's my point(not so well made) but if the US is so interested in alleviating human suffering around the world, then we should go in and stop the conflict cold.
We "Lifted the yoke of Tyranny from the necks of the Kuwati people" but couldn't lift a finger while millions are killed and starved to death across the African continent in tribal and governmental civil wars that are about nothing more than ethnic cleansing and power struggles.
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As I recall, we did quite a bit of finger lifting in Somalia. Would you like to repeat that experiment on a larger scale?
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If PROPERLY executed with a better game plan, I wouldn't mind at all. Read the epilogue of Blackhawk Down and after action info and you'll see that the whole op was fraught with complexities that shouldn't have to hinder a military force tasked with a lofty goal. SHerm
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:35:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fattym4:
Originally Posted By sherm8404: Imbro My grandfather had a wrapping paper company. My tin foil hats have always been made with the finest aluminum wraping foil. Gold, silver, blue foil with snow men, and X-mas patterns too! I will gladly isolate my self in a corner with my AR, colorful tinfoil hat and my conspiracy thoeries. Garandman = smartman
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tin hats with snowmen??? i'm so jealous!!!
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Hey! That could be a new thread. "The Tinfoil Hats of AR15.com" where everybody sports their radio beam deflecting, governmental mind control wave nullifying, brain protecting TIN FOIL HAT! Sherm
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:52:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: This thread keeps re-emerging with new twists and turns, so I have improvised the following boilerplate response to them, as follows: re: unprovoked attacks vs. justifiable acts of war Our Federal gov'ts foreign meddlinging has just as great a potential to anger others as our Federal gov'ts domestic meddling has the potential to anger us. Loss of freedoms caused by our Federal gov't is not really any different based on the locale of the person losing their freedoms. The difference?? We happen to believe that there is NO justification for killing innocents in order to get our gov'ts attention. These foreign powers do not.
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Garandman, some might argue that Timothy McVeigh and his co-horts didn't share this difference, and they were Americans. Not that I agree with what they did, because I do not. But saying we are inherently better ignores the fact that there were and are indeed American citizens who have no problems killing a few innocents to make their point. I'm just thankful that none of them have done anything like McVeigh since. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 1:00:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sherm8404:
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Just look at the war involving the Tutsis and Hutus if you need some ideas on where we could truly intervene and come down on the side of rightousness.
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And just which faction is it that represents the "side of righteousness" in Rwanda?
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Neither, and that's my point(not so well made) but if the US is so interested in alleviating human suffering around the world, then we should go in and stop the conflict cold.
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How does one stop a conflict cold? By the threat of force and aremed occupation. Something tells me that even that is enough to provoke indignation and resentment. We shouldn't be involved in any foreign matter that isn't directly related to US interests. Let them hack each other to death in Rwanda. They're not Americans and there is no reason for the American government to get involved in a conflict like that or any other. Let the U.N. take care of that one. I'm not necessarily advocating an isolationist stance, but we shouldn't be spending money and exhausting resources when there is no reason for us to be involved. We should not be the police force of the world, which we end up becoming time and time again.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 1:03:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: You are going to be labled an "isolationist" and accused of spreading "tin foil hat conspiracy theories" for saying that.
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Yeah, but when can we expect a retraction from you for the CNN urban legend you spread last week? Hmmm?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 1:11:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas: Garandman, some might argue that Timothy McVeigh and his co-horts didn't share this difference, and they were Americans. Not that I agree with what they did, because I do not. But saying we are inherently better ignores the fact that there were and are indeed American citizens who have no problems killing a few innocents to make their point. I'm just thankful that none of them have done anything like McVeigh since. God Bless Texas
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You are right, of course. When I referred to "we" I was referring to "We, here on this board - the same ones who have reached a "general consensus that our own gov't is QUITE capable of evil in removing OUR freedoms thru its domestic policy." "we" do not believe in killing our own people to get our gov'ts attention. A bit of a legal disclaimer, and a point I did a poor job of making in my original post. It was in my head, but never made it to my keyboard. Good clarification on your part. Far as I am concerned, McVeigh just got new Islaamic roomates in the hottest part of hell.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:04:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sherm8404: But the article really isn't THAT bad. Many people should realize that the attack isn't a strike against freedom, the American way of life, mom, apple pie, and baseball. It's against American foreign policy, it's against the ugly American. And belive me Americans don't really endear themselves on such a grand scale to the rest of the world. Much of American foreign policy is about how we can "Americanize" other countries, bring them the gifts of our technological genius, and show them a better way. Not everybody likes this. Not everybody wants this.
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I reject your assertion that the "Americanization" of other countries is either forcible or a bad thing for us to do. Yes, there are some people that don't like it...screw them. They don't have to participate. The only reason assholes like Bin Laden exist is that we haven't Americanized the world ENOUGH.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:16:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 6:36:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By sherm8404: But the article really isn't THAT bad. Many people should realize that the attack isn't a strike against freedom, the American way of life, mom, apple pie, and baseball. It's against American foreign policy, it's against the ugly American. And belive me Americans don't really endear themselves on such a grand scale to the rest of the world. Much of American foreign policy is about how we can "Americanize" other countries, bring them the gifts of our technological genius, and show them a better way. Not everybody likes this. Not everybody wants this.
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I reject your assertion that the "Americanization" of other countries is either forcible or a bad thing for us to do. Yes, there are some people that don't like it...screw them. They don't have to participate. The only reason assholes like Bin Laden exist is that we haven't Americanized the world ENOUGH.
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Reject all you want. "Screw them" is what makes other countries resent an American citizen, as well intentioned as he may be. When you say "there are some people that don't like it" it's a phrase chosen to make one think that those who "don't like it" are small in number. The truth is that in many countries power is held by a select, aloof, few. And when Uncle Sam comes along promising all sorts of goodies it generally includes a GREAT benefit to those in power. Be it $$$, luxury items, or major business opportunities. Meanwhile it may be the general populus that gets the short end of the stick. You methodology of foreign policy, if reversed and applied to you would certainly raise your ire, right? I know what's best for you? I know how to make your life better without your input? You know here in jolly old England we've no guns and there are very few murders so I'm just gonna take yours so you silly Americans stop putting holes in each other and quit shooting up post offices. Really it's for the common good. Kinda stupid, huh? The American way HAS been forced on people repeatedly throughout history and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there may be a backlash in the Love For Americans department. NFI/ I don't even know you and I don't mean to been disrespectful in anyway but the ASSUMPTION that we know what's best/ our way is the best just proves my point. You seem tohave a narrow view of the wotld. Maybe youhaven't traveled that much. Maybe you haven't sat down with people from another country IN another country. I have. Once again, I'll suggest picking up a copy of "The Ugly American." You could learn a lot from it. I really don't getinto words with anyone one the board here. Believe me I'll sit down with anyone here and split a case of beer and a case of ammo anytime. Just not in that order. Sherm
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 6:48:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas: How does one stop a conflict cold? By the threat of force and aremed occupation. Something tells me that even that is enough to provoke indignation and resentment. We shouldn't be involved in any foreign matter that isn't directly related to US interests. Let them hack each other to death in Rwanda. They're not Americans and there is no reason for the American government to get involved in a conflict like that or any other. Let the U.N. take care of that one. I'm not necessarily advocating an isolationist stance, but we shouldn't be spending money and exhausting resources when there is no reason for us to be involved. We should not be the police force of the world, which we end up becoming time and time again.
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We SHOULDN"T be the police force of the world. BUT, since we've set up shop that way, it's disturbing to see genocide occuring under our noses, and we turn a blind eye to it. Yet we chose to get involved somewhere else and cite a stack of pious reasons as to why we're sending our troops into harms way. The Persian Gulf was about oil and $$$. We "Lifted the yoke of Tyranny from the necks of the Kuwati people" as George Bush said.But we know that it's because Suzy Soccermom can't keep her lead foot off the accelerator pedal on the Ford Excursion. Why do we get involved in centuries old unsolvable conflicts in Europe? Because destabilazation of the region will lead to economic woes for us. Yet untold human suffering occursbut because it's not an "American interest" we don't lift a finger! Things that make you go Hmmmm. Sherm
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:15:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB: Courtland Milloy You are cordially invited to Kiss my American Loving Ass.[moon] [i][b]"Courtland Milloy, you are part of the Problem"[/i][/b] s(GodblessAmerica)gb
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Damn straight. She did get one thing right...
Of course, America is not squirming, and somebody is going to pay.
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