I recently found a used Mercedes SUV with all wheel drive.  The price is good and it has around 50,000 miles on it.  Do they have any major problems and what is the upkeep on them like?  Are they maintence hogs and is the maintence expensive?

G-Wagen is a tough truck that has been co-opted by the homies.

M-Class is a car-based SUV, and not really suited to serious off-roading applications, although they can be modified for such duty. You should put away $150/month in a savings account for repairs. I understand they eat tires.

I drove an M class for a few days and wasn't impressed at all.  It drove like a pig on stilts.

The best out there today
www.reviewcentre.com/reviews3196.html

If you want a vehicle for real off road hard use, you are not looking at the right vehicle.  If you are looking for the ultimate soccermom/urbanite/beautiful people vehicle then you got it picked out just fine.  Do count on higher cost of maintenance and repairs but they are generally a good quality vehicle.

As was said the m-class is more or less just a car with a big body on it. They are meant for weathy people who will never drive off pavement. There are probably better suv's for less.

The g-wagon is something else. Its designed very good, but is also very costly. Its very capable especially with some mods but again in the civilian version is mostly geared towards people who wont drive it off road at all but still want the look. If you are looking for a serious off road vehicle you are much better off with other choices. They're very nice, but why would you take such an expensive vehicle off roading?

My parents own a jeep liberty 4x4 and I like it a lot. They've had a few issues with it, but off-road and being completely stock its pretty good. I drove through a Land Rover dealership and drove it over their fake rock hill deal they have at most of them. I just drove in and up/over their little course in a Jeep. I could just imagine a saleperson telling a customer jeeps cant do this and look over at me going over it! With the v6 it has good power, nice creature comforts and the 4x4 is good off-roading. Ive never gotten stuck with it even in blizzard conditions on a 12,000ft mtn using 2wd. Didnt even have to go to 4x4 mode. The one they have is the limited and its pretty sweet. Ive driven about 12,000 miles in it. Average gas consumption is 20mpg freeway and about 17 city. They paid about 28k for it which is pretty good for what they got. There is a large aftermarket as well compared to the m-class.

the G wagon is

nothing else is

Family had a ML430 a few years back when they were new on the scene. Didn't like it at all, didn't have too many technical problems but it drove like crap.

Quoted: the G wagon is

+1


The G wagon fucking rocks!  It is the most impressive 4x4 I've ever driven.

paging saturnstyl to the thread...he's a Merc mechanic and can give a real perspective of the Mercedes SUVs.

Quoted: paging saturnstyl to the thread...he's a Merc mechanic technician and can give a real perspective of the Mercedes SUVs.

Thanks for the page!  

Allrighty, lets first off get clarification.  I need to know the exact year and model.  The 98-05 "rounded" looking one is the W163.  It is NOT car based, but a full body on frame SUV.  I used to have one, an '04 ML500.  The drivetrains and suspensions are tough as nails.  The offroad capabilities are very good also, the usual limitation being the rear bumper being torn off because it collects sand and mud as it scrapes on the hills.  They are easily reattached though.  Those are ALL full time AWD with low range transfer case.  They utilize a system that brakes slipping wheels to apply power to the wheels with grip.  They can propel themselves with one single wheel if the other 3 do not have traction, but the motion can be somewhat jerky.  

The replacment for that model is the W164.  2006+ and it is not the truck the 163 was.  This model has unibody construction, much skinnier tires, and is more what a mercedes customer wants in an SUV than the previous model.  I don't like it as much, but I must admit that on the highway its a bit more comfortable.  They are much more trouble free than the earlier model, but the capabilites are reduced as well.  If you want a big station wagon, this is your pick.  If you plan to do "truck" things with it, then go for the earlier model.  

The "square" SUV is the 463, G class.  They were supposed to be killed off in america but popular demand keeps them around.  They are still mostly hand built in Graz, Austria and have a price tag to match.  The G55 Kompressor is breathtaking.  After several years in G500's it didn't seem possible to make one go that damn fast.  That truck is nuts.....  However the vast majority of owners constantly complain about its rough ride and vibration.  Its got solid axles front and rear, recirculating ball steering, and is off road oriented.  You can't civilize a military truck but so much.  Headroom is incredible, but the truck is somewhat small inside compared to american models.  
We don't sell very many of these at my dealer anymore, but they are really badass.  They will have the spare tire mounted on the rear door.  These trucks have locking front, center, and rear differentials with low range transfer case.  They can go places.   The W163 is not quite as capable, but will eventually go most of the places a G500 can.

The new "big and round" SUV is the X164 GL 450.  Motor trends truck of the year.  It can be ordered with a low range transfer case with a locking center and rear differential, but I have never SEEN anybody order one that way.  Mostly they come fully loaded with all the soccer mom gear.  Rear view camera, parktronic, DVD system and rear AC.  We sell a bunch of these, and they are very similar to the W164, but is bigger.  It comes with air suspension standard, and also has third row seating with power operation standard.  

The 251 R class looks like a big ass minivan but its classified as an SUV.  3 rows of two seats.  Much more car like, shares much with the w164.  The engine is hidden under the dashboard.  I am growing to hate them more everyday.  So far reliable though....

The W163 was initially offered with only the 3.2 liter V6.  They were quick in their day.  In '99 the ML430 was introduced with a 4.3 liter V8.  More powerful and faster.  Later that year or the next year they got bigger brakes than the 320's.  The drivetrain is identical in both models.  Somewhere around 2000 or 2001 I think the ML55 AMG was introduced.  The spare tire is put in the cargo area to make room for dual exhaust and a bigger fuel tank underneath.  It has a 5.5 liter natually aspirated V8, upgraded interior, 18" wheels.  Very nice.  Made through the end of 2003.  They had an electric fan instead of an engine driven fan.
In 2002 the ML got a major upgrade, with much nicer interiors and late in 2002 the ML350 replaced the 320 with a 3.7 liter V6.  It has a lot more power.  I think in the same year the ML500 replaced the ML430.  It has an electric engine fan as well, and they are really quick and agile for an SUV.  I loved mine.  

The W164 came with a new DOHC 3.5 liter V6 and a seven speed auto replacing the old five speed auto.  They do not offer a low range transfer case.  They are much faster, and get better fuel economy to boot.  The ML500 carried over the V8, but got the 7 speed auto also.  Now you can also get a 3.2 liter turbo diesel V6.  An AMG model is available with a 6.2 liter 500+ HP V8.

The Rclass engines mimic the W164.

The GL options are the 4.7 liter DOHC "new" V8 or the 3.2 turbo diesel both with the 7 speed auto.  I don't think there will be an AMG model.  Who knows?

The G class came with a 5.0 liter SOHC V8 and the 5 speed auto.  You can get the AMG which originally was naturally aspirated, and later on they supercharged it and turned it in to a freak.  

I think you are probably looking at a W163.  They can be an excellent choice, depending on year and how well it was cared for.  There is TONS of misinformation on the web.  I gave up contributing to MB forums because of it.  I will be happy to help you provided I can get some more information.  One thing I will point out immediately is the roof.  A standard sunroof is an incredibly popular option.  It will be difficult to find one without a sunroof.  Those are fine, usually needing only an inexpensive and simple wind deflector replacement.  The "lamella" roof, or "sky view" roof is a big ass affair, that goes from the front seats to the rear seats.  It has "panels" which stack up in the back when its open.  It breaks, and its VERY expensive to repair.  I would not buy one with that roof.  Its cool when it works, but its not a matter of if, its a matter of when.  They quit offering it as an option and not many are out there.  That tells you something.....

Quoted: Quoted: paging saturnstyl to the thread...he's a Merc mechanic technician and can give a real perspective of the Mercedes SUVs.

I apologize for not using the proper title

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: paging saturnstyl to the thread...he's a Merc mechanic technician and can give a real perspective of the Mercedes SUVs. I apologize for not using the proper title

Just picking on ya!  One of my tech school teachers, who were always drilling in to us the value of our trade, had a saying something like this:  A shadetree mechanic knows the screw is somewhere on the car, and needs to be turned.  A mechanic knows where the screw is, and how to turn it.  A technician knows which direction to turn the screw and exactly how far it needs to be turned.  

That, and I do NOT work on people's cars on my free time.  So when they ask "Are you a mechanic?"  I truthfully answer them "No."

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: paging saturnstyl to the thread...he's a Merc mechanic technician and can give a real perspective of the Mercedes SUVs. I apologize for not using the proper title Just picking on ya!  One of my tech school teachers, who were always drilling in to us the value of our trade, had a saying something like this:  A shadetree mechanic knows the screw is somewhere on the car, and needs to be turned.  A mechanic knows where the screw is, and how to turn it.  A technician knows which direction to turn the screw and exactly how far it needs to be turned.   That, and I do NOT work on people's cars on my free time.  So when they ask "Are you a mechanic?"  I truthfully answer them "No."

cool.  My dad is a mechanic, his quailifications were a short tine in a trade school in the 70's and a lot of OJT.

My positive impression of Mercedes halted the first time I saw one of their delivery vans overseas... in Egypt.

Well, I did 3 years of Auto Tech in high school with a year of electronics.  I lived, breathed, ate and slept cars for most of my life.  College wasn't for me, so I did UTI at the Houston campus.  I did straight automotive, and graduated with a whole bunch of awards and stuff.  I don't brag much but I was undefeatable in virtually any task or test during my time there.  While attending UTI I got a job working in a shop at Carquest, so I would work till 2pm in the shop learning more "hands on" and then go to school for some book learning.  This helped immensely with my training.  I could already do alignments and stuff before I even took that class.  
I flew through the interviews and tests with ease, and attended Mercedes-Benz Elite training in Orlando, FL for four months.  From there I got hired at the dealer in my hometown, and it will be 7 years in april.  I have more training credits than anybody at my dealer, and often help other people with their tests.  I take everything I can get my hands on.  I have become a Master Certified Diagnostic technician and am also the only person in my shop who is SLR certified so I get to work on that.  I had my 2007 update course in Jacksonville, FL earlier this week.  I also have that largest tool box if that counts......  I was picked last for gym teams, sucked at virtually everything I tried my whole life until I got in to cars.  Its the one thing I am good at, and its built up my confidence and self esteem.  I strive to be the very best at what I do, and the fact that my dealer sent a 25 year old to SLR training speaks volumes.  I like to fix the things that other folks cannot, and I always try to help people out when they need it.

Its a very cool coincidence that my grandfather on my dad's side, who passed before I was born, was a top 10 Mecedes tech way back when.  I grew up in a military family and didn't even know what a Mercedes was.  I had planned to work on Chevrolets all along until opportunity presented itself along with a few motivational speeches and some personal talks with my instructors.  Somehow I ended up at Mercedes and then everyone realized that we have a family history with them!



There is an older photo of my box, with my old tool cart.  The photo does little to represent just how huge that box is.  It barely fits in my bay, and I share a workbench with my neighbor.  Its kinda crowded in my bay but I have learned to work around everything.  I like having my own stuff so I don't have to hunt for an hour for a shop tool only to find it broken.

Quoted: My positive impression of Mercedes halted the first time I saw one of their delivery vans overseas... in Egypt.

Mercedes is a worldwide company.  They sell a lot of different vehicles and engines to many countries.  In the USA they are more of a luxury car company, although you may notice a few freightliner trucks are now "powered by Mercedes-benz" and Dodge is selling a rebadged Mercedes cargo van.  
Also contrary to what many believe, Mercedes is the oldest car company in the world.  Ford had the first assembly line.

Saturnstyl, can you help me out?

I have a 1980 Mercedes 300SD turbo diesel. 192 thousands miles, runs great.

However, the last remaining working headlight cut out when I cut across/over a bumpy median. Now it will go on, but occasionaly it will cut out. If I hit the horn it will come on.

Help? Bad headlight?

Yep, the Steyr Puch G rocks! Its produced here in Graz, Styria / AUSTRIA.

Quoted: Yep, the Steyr Puch G rocks! Its produced here in Graz, Styria / AUSTRIA. www.vinthers.dk/images/puch.jpg

Isn't that the Austrian .mil general purpose vehicle? Diesel, gas?

Quoted: Saturnstyl, can you help me out? I have a 1980 Mercedes 300SD turbo diesel. 192 thousands miles, runs great. However, the last remaining working headlight cut out when I cut across/over a bumpy median. Now it will go on, but occasionaly it will cut out. If I hit the horn it will come on. Help? Bad headlight?

Divide and conquer.  That unit is before my time, and I do not have access to legible online diagrams on that car.  However, its still just electricity.  Why doesn't the other headlight work?  Check for voltage at the headlamp connectors, continuity of the bulb, replace as needed.  Headlamps generally are not fused, but that car *might* have a lamp module on it.  You could have a poor ground on the circuit and sounding the horn might be enough to complete a circuit (voltage will find a ground wherever it can) or since the horn vibrates it might be shaking a poor connection enough to make contact, also because you mention driving over bumps makes it come on or off.  
A broken bulb filament could also be making and breaking contact inside the bulb.
Just start with the basics and see if you have voltage at your headlamp connections.

Quoted: Quoted: Saturnstyl, can you help me out? I have a 1980 Mercedes 300SD turbo diesel. 192 thousands miles, runs great. However, the last remaining working headlight cut out when I cut across/over a bumpy median. Now it will go on, but occasionaly it will cut out. If I hit the horn it will come on. Help? Bad headlight? Divide and conquer.  That unit is before my time, and I do not have access to legible online diagrams on that car.  However, its still just electricity.  Why doesn't the other headlight work?  Check for voltage at the headlamp connectors, continuity of the bulb, replace as needed.  Headlamps generally are not fused, but that car *might* have a lamp module on it.  You could have a poor ground on the circuit and sounding the horn might be enough to complete a circuit (voltage will find a ground wherever it can) or since the horn vibrates it might be shaking a poor connection enough to make contact, also because you mention driving over bumps makes it come on or off.   A broken bulb filament could also be making and breaking contact inside the bulb. Just start with the basics and see if you have voltage at your headlamp connections.

Thanks for the help!

One last simple question-

Would it be possible to replace just the bulbs in the headlights or would I have to replace the entire unit?

It is a 2001 ML320 M series.  Any info on this model?  I really like it.  

I do not plan on any heavy offroading.  I have an older Z-71 for that.  I just want something that is a good all around vehicle that has moderate offroad capabilities.  It will be taken 7 miles into the country into the sandhills every day or two but just to check horses.  So mostly sandy roads and trip into the pastures.  No towing or mudding.  Mostly it is just going to be used to commute back and forth to work and for trips back to western kansas for holidays like Christmas.

Quoted: It is a 2001 ML320 M series.  Any info on this model?  I really like it.   I do not plan on any heavy offroading.  I have an older Z-71 for that.  I just want something that is a good all around vehicle that has moderate offroad capabilities.  It will be taken 7 miles into the country into the sandhills every day or two but just to check horses.  So mostly sandy roads and trip into the pastures.  No towing or mudding.  Mostly it is just going to be used to commute back and forth to work and for trips back to western kansas for holidays like Christmas.

Wifes boss had one. He was NOT impressed with it at all. Said it was the most expensive vehicle he had ever owned as far as maint and upkeep. They are NOT off road vehicles in any sense of the word. They are inclemite weather vehicles.

They did not hold their value well at all for a merc and many were sold after a year or two of ownership by the original owner. Great idea, poor execution.

BTW, he dumped it and bought a Bimmer MX5? "suv" He still owns that, and loves it.

I will try to post some pictures later today.  Any new words on the ml320?

Quoted: I will try to post some pictures later today.  Any new words on the ml320?

Well its anyone's guess at this point.  You may be getting a vehicle that has had all the updates and repairs done to fix the common problems, which will provide  you with good service.  The thing to worry about is if you got one that HASN'T had these things done.  With any used vehicle, you never know what you have gotten until its too late unless you have had it checked over by someone who knows that model very well.  
I can fairly confidently state that should you have a problem, by now the replacement parts rarely fail again.  There were many, many upgrades made to that vehicle over time.  There were also a LOT of common problems, which honestly by now have mostly been addressed.  I am not doing the same repairs in the quantity I was before with these models.  Today I installed a window switch in an '01, and its the first one I can recall doing for a long, long time.  I used to spend half my day replacing window switches in ML's.  
Its probably easier for me to just give you a list of things to check.  Many of them are simple and cheap fixes:
Maintenance.  Bring it all up to date, fluids, filters, plugs.  Check the brakes and suspension.
Check the auxillary fan fuse.  Its a 30 amp, probably blown.  Upgrade the harness and install a 40 amp fuse.
Rear D-pillar covers often crack and peel.
Check the rear hatch lock, be sure it locks.  A lot of them broke back in the day.
Sunroof, open it, if yellow glue appears on the glass when you close it, the insulation is falling down off the roof.  Remove it entirely and do not replace it.  Make sure the wind deflector in the front that pops up isn't broken, often the arms will break off.
Window switches.  The drivers window will go down, but not up.  The switch group will be faulty.
Check the lower power steering hose on the radiator.  There were several recalls on this, its covered for 10 years unlimited mileage.
Transmission electrical connector leaks fluid.  A new connector is updated and do a good job sealing things up.  There is a 7mm bolt in the center once you unplug the connector.  Replace the plastic sleeve and tighten the bolt CAREFULLY.  Top off with the correct MB fluid.
Catalytic converters will crack and break apart.  Covered under 8/80 emissions warranty.  Aftermarket cats do not work well on a benz.
Roll down all four windows, checking for the same glue from sunroof.  That insulation can be replaced with ease.  It tends to effect darker colored vehicles the most.
Seat side trim sometimes breaks, usually on the left front seat.  
Remember to replace the fuel filter it is best to replace the two lines from the fuel pump to the filter also.  The new fuel filter will be larger than the original, and requires a "loop" line also.  There might be an additional fuel filter installed.  Remove and discard it, the new large filter supersedes everything.  
If it shuts off when its hot and won't restart for a few minutes, or you shut it off and it won't restart when hot, the crankshaft position sensor is usually to blame.  
If the washer fluid tank leaks, fix it.  It usually drips right on the ABS pump and ruins it.

There are the most common problems I can think of right now.  I have worked on a LOT of these things.  They are tough as hell, as we beat the roadside assistance trucks to hell and they loved the abuse.  
I really don't think they are as problematic once all the updates have been done.  They were produced at a time when Benz wasn't putting out the greatest cars in the world.  Things have changed.  They really made some big improvements in quality and reliablility starting in 2004.  The ML got the big makeover in 2002 and our problems with them pretty much ended.
Holler if anything comes up..... I might be able to help.

We have two in the family - a '99 ML430 and an '01 ML55 AMG.

1) The most significant thing I can say about them is they are as solid after 100K+ as they were right off the lot. If it is important to you to have a vehicle that lasts the test of time and feels like a solid German road machine after years of ownership then these are great cars. These put Toyotas to shame in the long-term drivability - this is comparing to 4runner and Lexus SUVs we've owned in the family. The Toyota products all felt like old cars after many years - not so with these MB's. The longer we own these things the more impressed we become.

2) Absolutely great in snowy and icy roads - unyielding confidence in keeping the vehicle going where you want it.

3) Absolutely horrible off-road on anything more than a fire road. Do not attempt to take these things on any Jeep trail. The traction control cannot be turned completely off, so if the terrain is deep and loose or rock-laden the vehicle WILL get stuck - the traction control just slows the wheels down until the vehicle just stops if the terrain is beyond the limits of the system. Have fun being laughed off the trail by anyone in a real 4x4. Their advertising to the contrary is a joke.

4) Parts are expensive and they've had a few minor problems over the years that you just get used to, but roughly on par with the Toyota products we've owned. 6K for a rebuilt tranny seems excessive to me - NOT the cars fault BTW as my mother kept throwing it into drive while still backing up. That is a major no-no on any auto tranny. They EAT brakes due to the overactive traction control constantly applying the brakes to control slip, so get used to buying brakes. They are not money pits by any means, but have the money on hand in case you have to purchase these expensive parts.

5) The V-8s rock, but the old 3.2 liter V-6 is rather anemic at Colorado's high altitude. They excel at highway speeds and are not affected by strong crosswinds like most SUV's.

Try to find the battery.  

Quoted: Try to find the battery.

On the 163, its right there on the passenger side in front of the firewall under the hood.  The "new" SUV's are seriously retarded with the placement being UNDER the passenger front seat.  You have to cut the carpet on pre-marked lines, remove an air duct and cover, and then strain like hell to get that thing out.  I HATE pulling batteries out of those things.  For bonus points, you still have to remove all that crap just to hook to the battery to test it.  Trying to test it from the jump start terminals results in a failed test every time.  That was just STUPID, I don't care what the justification for putting it there was.  
As an even further added bonus, there is a wire that clips on the positive terminal, that you will inevitably knock off when reinstalling all that ducting and stuff.  You won't know it until AFTER you put everything together, and you get to re-perform that task for free.
But wait!!!! Theres MORE!!!!  If you have a water leak, or spill water, leave a window open, whatever, that cavity under the seat fills with water.  Lots of water.  Gallons.  Guess where the front SAM module is?  And you have yet another reason to pull the damn battery out to access that module.

I should mention that I have yet to see a battery other than OEM that fit the 163 properly.  The brackets are designed to fit it, and don't work nearly as well with anything else.

saturnstyl I'd hate to see what happens if you get T-boned in the new model with the battery where it is.

(Disclaimer: I don't wish T-boning accidents on other people, just a bad scenario.)

Yeah, this was a little timely as I was chatting with a friend this evening who is a Mercedes 'technician'.

Said the guy who owns the dealership bought the ML at auction for $35K.  2004 or 2005 model if memory serves.  37K miles.

Floorboard of the entire vehicle is covered in about 1.5" of water.  Electrical system going completely apeshit.  Park lights would not turn off.

They've never dealt with one of them before, so when they go to pull the battery...

I thought Dodge was fucking nuts when they put the battery for the Cirrus (or whatever that thing was called) in the passenger wheel well.  Then I heard that Mercedes is sticking a damned battery under a fucking seat.

German engineering indeed...

I always enjoy talking to him about his work on the Mercedes.  Some of the most asinine engineering and design I've ever heard of.

Also told me about a lease return they got.  Would run fine for a while, then just die.  Couldn't get the oil level set to save their lives.  Add a quart, the comp says it is 2 quarts too full.  Drain a quart, then three quarts too low.

He pulls the oil sensor, gets covered in huge globs of sludge.  Car had 34K miles on it, oil had been changed exactly TWICE.  Once at 12K, then again when they got the car in.  22K miles on oil.

He's got 46 hours in so far rebuilding the engine.

Here is a pic.  Still thinking about it. Still need more info.

I would rather be in a Mercedes than ANYTHING should I be in an accident.  They are the safest cars on the road IMHO.  They are very well made and engineered to a very high standard.  

10,000 mile oil changes are standard on 98+ models, with a move to 13,000 mile maintenance in 2005.  The problem arises when synthetic oil is not used.  It sludges and messes up the engine, much like it would in anything..... It pays less than 20 hours now to do a rebuild, I think possibly even less than 15.  I only did three of them waaaaaay back when it was a problem.  Mercedes didn't exactly specify a synthetic oil had to be used initially, which caused the problem.  They later sent out notices to owners, and covered the engines for an extended time and mileage against oil sludge.

I believe in the product I service, I have owned them personally since 2004.  I don't put a lot of faith in the techs who whine and complain about their jobs, because they obviously don't appreciate the finer details.  Its just a pain in the ass to them.  

On the other hand, if you find a 2002 or better yet an '03 or later, you may find you like it much more than the '01.  They were vastly improved in many areas.  The interior is nicer, the exterior appearance is more to my liking also.  Plus you could score a 350 over the 320 and get some more power.  The '01 isn't really that bad, but the later ones are just so much better in my opinion.  The '01 has simplicity working for it though, as the later models got some more electronics in them.  You can retrofit a DVD navigation system in to any ML that is 2000 or later.  Its a very simple thing to do on a 2002 and later, the 2000-2001 involved an extra splitter and some wiring under the front passenger seat, and an antenna on the 2000 model.  That 2001 and all later models can be retrofitted to digital tele-aid.  Its our version of ON-Star.  The older modules are Analog, and with the dissappearance of analog cell service, a digital retrofit is needed to keep it working.  

Here is a pic of my former baby, my 2004 ML500.  Sometimes I miss it a whole lot.  My E350 does a pretty good job of making sure I don't.

She was tight.  I did a lot of mods to it while I had it.  The bitch that bought it destroyed it.  The grille was changed to a special edition version that was silver to keep the monochromatic scheme.  18" multipiece wheels with 285/50/18 michelin 4x4 diamaris tires made it handle VERY well.  They also cost me a fortune, along with the fender flare kit so that the wheels wouldn't stick out.  I put a trailer hitch kit on it, but never towed anything with it.  Cargo liner and nets, rear seat DVD system with silver headphones to match.  Yeah, I was overboard in several places.  Cd changer, Voice activation, Satellite radio, all weather mats, custom hitch cover, front plate, and probably a few other things.  It was very well taken care of because I bought it.  
The E350 is a lease, and I don't give it the attention I did the ML.  I may have washed it a dozen times since august 2005, and changed the oil at 11,000 miles because I thought I might go over 13,000 on my latest trip to training.  I have never waxed it.  I have a picture of it too.  Seems I have a thing for silver with black interiors.

Just after I got the E class I discovered the world of the AR15.  So all the money I used to pour in to my car went to buying guns instead.  

Overall the Benzes are usually easier to work on than what I remember from the independent shop.  Everything is RWD, unless its AWD.  The krauts usually make things so you can work on them, but they slip up on things sometimes.  Several techs I have worked with that had GM backrounds liked the ML because it seemed familiar to them.  They are NOT like the traditional made in germany Mercedes in many respects.  You do get a powertrain from Germany though.  Just the way the electronics are in the ML is quite different from the cars.  Everything seems to be "cheaper" on the ML, it doesn't share much with its german brothers and sisters.  The 2002 upgrade addressed some of those issues, but if you go further back to 1998 and 1999 you will wonder how they ever considered it a "luxury" SUV at the start.  

Quoted: I will try to post some pictures later today.  Any new words on the ml320?

'98-'00 ML's had some quality problems related to vendor parts (harmonic balancer, CPS, fuel pumps, power steering etc.). Most of those were repaired under warranty/ recall. The feedback I get from the forums is that '02 and later are superb vehicles.

Despite what you may have read here by uninformed people that probably never owned or drove one, they are VERY competent off-road, as long as you don't do Moab.

Yes, they are pricey to maintain, but exclusivity has its' price, if you are willing to pay it.



This is my '02 ML500 (the 5.0L engine). Road & Track tested this model and got a 0-60 time of 6.9 sec., so don't tell me they drive badly. Add to that ABS coupled with traction control, low range, AWD, and they are fantastic vehicles.

The ML430 and 450 have a smaller V8 (4.3 & 4.5L respectively) and the ML320 & ML340 are V6's, so you won't get hyper performance from those. Mine turns 288 HP, 325 ft-lb in a SUV that weighs 4800 lbs. If you want nosebleed acceleration drive a ML55 or ML63. But mine STILL will go nose-to-nose with most cars I have tried stoplight to stoplight.

Visit the M-B forums, read some about them. Google can be your friend. I already gave you a link. Look for the W163 forum ('06 's are the ML164 body)

Quoted: We have two in the family - a '99 ML430 and an '01 ML55 AMG. 1) The most significant thing I can say about them is they are as solid after 100K+ as they were right off the lot. If it is important to you to have a vehicle that lasts the test of time and feels like a solid German road machine after years of ownership then these are great cars. These put Toyotas to shame in the long-term drivability - this is comparing to 4runner and Lexus SUVs we've owned in the family. The Toyota products all felt like old cars after many years - not so with these MB's. The longer we own these things the more impressed we become. 2) Absolutely great in snowy and icy roads - unyielding confidence in keeping the vehicle going where you want it. 3) Absolutely horrible off-road on anything more than a fire road. Do not attempt to take these things on any Jeep trail. The traction control cannot be turned completely off, so if the terrain is deep and loose or rock-laden the vehicle WILL get stuck - the traction control just slows the wheels down until the vehicle just stops if the terrain is beyond the limits of the system. Have fun being laughed off the trail by anyone in a real 4x4. Their advertising to the contrary is a joke. 4) Parts are expensive and they've had a few minor problems over the years that you just get used to, but roughly on par with the Toyota products we've owned. 6K for a rebuilt tranny seems excessive to me - NOT the cars fault BTW as my mother kept throwing it into drive while still backing up. That is a major no-no on any auto tranny. They EAT brakes due to the overactive traction control constantly applying the brakes to control slip, so get used to buying brakes. They are not money pits by any means, but have the money on hand in case you have to purchase these expensive parts. 5) The V-8s rock, but the old 3.2 liter V-6 is rather anemic at Colorado's high altitude. They excel at highway speeds and are not affected by strong crosswinds like most SUV's.

About your point #3; don't you have an ESP switch below the Comand nav?? That switches OFF the traction control IIRC. I never tried it, why bother? And here in AZ, the car never uses the traction control cause the weather never gets bad enough to activate it. Oh, also I believe the ML430 or 450 has won the Senegal-Dakar Rally like 4 years in a row.

By the way; look at this: link.

There's a clip of a ML climbing the Lion's Back at Moab! Who says you can't offroad them??

Quoted: G-Wagen is a tough truck that has been co-opted by the homies. M-Class is a car-based SUV, and not really suited to serious off-roading applications, although they can be modified for such duty. You should put away $150/month in a savings account for repairs. I understand they eat tires.

Not really. They do have independent suspension, but they also have a full frame underneath. Tough as a piece of old leather. Rev limiter kicks in at 133 mph, BTW

The BMW X5 is unibody, no low range. Pretty fast, not as solid as the Benz.

I test drove both before I bought the ML500.

I drove mine up pikes peak and around the surrounding areas and trails.... about all the offroading it got because I was picky about it.  The roadside trucks.... well... Don't wanna incriminate myself.  They been plenty of places.  I have seen videos of the M class getting through some serious shit.  Mud, sand, off roading....  Its far more capable than what you think.  You must learn to how to drive it in those situations.  There was a test track right next to the factory that they used and I sure as hell would never try most of those things that they did on a daily basis over there.

If you want some performance, lose the Dunlops..... They make the Michelin 4x4 diamaris in the 275/55/17.  I ordered a set, then cancelled the next day and went for 18's instead.  They stick GOOD.  Its a performance tire.  I had to relearn how to drive mine afterwards, because it no longer slid through corners like the dunlops would.  The traction light didn't come on anymore ever.  It just hooked and went there.  The ML500 is among the best sounding Mercedes that I have dealt with.  Wind it out and just hear that V8.... its awesome.

ETA:  Get that sucker up in the air and look at it.  Torsion bar front suspension, coil overs in back.  Big strong frame, thick, strong axle shafts, strong control arms.  It was built to be a truck.  The customers did not WANT a truck, just something that resembled a truck but was actually a car.  So thats why the new ML is so different.  The old ML was very good at what it was intended to be.  I doubt you will find anything that comes close when you take a look at the underside of it, and see how tough they were designed to be.  We don't have a lot of trouble at all out of the suspension, and drivetrain.  Most of what you will encounter is trim or electrical.  
Just make sure you get a pre-purchase inspection by a person who KNOWS that model.  I recommend the dealer.  An hours labor may save you a ton of money in the long run.  They might tell you to run like hell......  I have seen far too many people crying about their new car that needs thousands of dollars of work, because they didn't get it checked out first to see what they were getting in to.

Quoted: Try to find the battery.

Right in front of the passenger, under the hood nice & high!!

Never mind, you were talking about the new G-Class, right?

saturnstyl,

Looking at a 2007 W203 - good car or pass, thoughts?

Thanks  

If I bought one it would be the new GL.  About $65k.

Quoted: saturnstyl, Looking at a 2007 W203 - good car or pass, thoughts? Thanks

I know im not saturnstyl but I am an owner of an 07 C350 sport with the 7sp. auto. Good car, Model refresh is right around the corner in 08. I would wait and slurp up a leftover for a big discount (the facelift had the same effect on the older models). the seat heat will cure any itch for a hotter seat (I dont think its possible) and the power and handling are there. It accelerates quite well in the triple digits with rock solid handling and stability.

Quoted: I would rather be in a Mercedes than ANYTHING should I be in an accident.  They are the safest cars on the road IMHO.  They are very well made and engineered to a very high standard.

My Volvo V70 (that I recently sold) would have laughed at that statement, but I would concede that Mercedes are among the safest cars on the road.

Quoted: Quoted: I would rather be in a Mercedes than ANYTHING should I be in an accident.  They are the safest cars on the road IMHO.  They are very well made and engineered to a very high standard.   My Volvo V70 (that I recently sold) would have laughed at that statement, but I would concede that Mercedes are among the safest cars on the road.

Bring it on.  I am not scared.  If you want the ultimate in occupant protection, a S class mercedes is going to be the one to beat.  Pre-safe, Mega high strength steels, an array of accident avoidance systems, along with advanced safety designs throughout.
The downside, if any, is that its *really* tough to total a Mercedes.  The bluebook values remains so high that you can do a lot of damage and its still repairable.

Quoted: saturnstyl, Looking at a 2007 W203 - good car or pass, thoughts? Thanks

I would not hesitate to own a new W203.  The 2001 models had a rough introduction with numerous issues, and the C-coupe is a pile of crap, but the sedans, especially the latest models, leave and do not come back.  Its had all the advantages of being late in its life cycle.  The improvements have all been made.  The new engines are superb, the new transmissions are finally sorted out, and the 350 is FAST.  The 230 isn't a slouch either, but test drive both and see what you like.  The sport models are going to annhilate tires.  10,000 miles out of a set of rear tires is COMMON.  The staggered width tires on the sport models cannot be rotated.  Keep your inflations pressures on the high side and you might be able to improve that number drastically.  
Personally, I don't see myself in a C.  The car is too small for my preference.  
Remember to take a look at the loaner cars that are coming out of service.  They are usually for sale at a nice discount, and have been taken care of.  Some of which might carry a CPO extended warranty.   The biggest down side to a C is if you want navigation, its expensive as hell to get that option.  It cannot be retrofitted if the car does not have the COMAND radio in it with the color screen.  By that point the lines between C and E become seriously blurred and it makes sense to step up.
Right now the 2007 E is offerered with the sport package as a no cost option.  The electronic brakes are gone for 2007 (I like mine on my '06 just fine), and the car got a freshening with some new sheetmetal and some minor interior changes.  I prefer the more rounded look of the '06, but the '07 is growing on me.
An E350 holds its resale value incredibly well.  The C class does not fare quite so good.

Quoted: I would not hesitate to own a new W203.  The 2001 models had a rough introduction with numerous issues, and the C-coupe is a pile of crap, but the sedans, especially the latest models, leave and do not come back.  Its had all the advantages of being late in its life cycle.  The improvements have all been made.  The new engines are superb, the new transmissions are finally sorted out, and the 350 is FAST.  The 230 isn't a slouch either, but test drive both and see what you like.  The sport models are going to annhilate tires.  10,000 miles out of a set of rear tires is COMMON.  The staggered width tires on the sport models cannot be rotated.  Keep your inflations pressures on the high side and you might be able to improve that number drastically.   Personally, I don't see myself in a C.  The car is too small for my preference.   Remember to take a look at the loaner cars that are coming out of service.  They are usually for sale at a nice discount, and have been taken care of.  Some of which might carry a CPO extended warranty.   The biggest down side to a C is if you want navigation, its expensive as hell to get that option.  It cannot be retrofitted if the car does not have the COMAND radio in it with the color screen.  By that point the lines between C and E become seriously blurred and it makes sense to step up. Right now the 2007 E is offerered with the sport package as a no cost option.  The electronic brakes are gone for 2007 (I like mine on my '06 just fine), and the car got a freshening with some new sheetmetal and some minor interior changes.  I prefer the more rounded look of the '06, but the '07 is growing on me. An E350 holds its resale value incredibly well.  The C class does not fare quite so good.

Thanks for the reply.  

I am seeing allot of information on the 00 and earlier, and allot about the 02 and up, but what about the 2001,  Are they hit or miss, like flipping a coin?

To review the info, it is a 2001 ml320 m.  Anything specific to this year?  I really am starting to like it and the link showing the different products is really tilting me that way.

Are they true 4wd or just all wheel drive?

Also about turning off the traction control, what does that do?  Does it help offroad?

Quoted: I am seeing allot of information on the 00 and earlier, and allot about the 02 and up, but what about the 2001,  Are they hit or miss, like flipping a coin? To review the info, it is a 2001 ml320 m.  Anything specific to this year?  I really am starting to like it and the link showing the different products is really tilting me that way. Are they true 4wd or just all wheel drive? Also about turning off the traction control, what does that do?  Does it help offroad?

The model was introduced in 1998.  The 98 and 99 are almost identical for a 320, with grey bumpers and a hard plastic interior with a shitty panasonic radio.  The 430 was introduced in 99 with painted bumpers.  In 2000 the painted bumpers along with an interior upgrade with softer surfaces was introduced.  The Comand radio was installed also.  The 2001 is identical to the 2000.  The 2002 got a big makeover and stayed mostly the same until 2005 which was the last year for the w163.

It has full time AWD with a low range transfer case.  The vehicle came standard with ESP, which means electronic stability program.  It is ALWAYS on.  It will help correct a skid, and send power to the wheels with traction by braking the spinning wheel.  The way a differential works allows this system to be effective.  Stop one wheel, and all the power goes to the other.  It will also reduce engine power to help regain traction.  When you push the ESP button, an orange or yellow triangle in the cluster will illuminate constantly.  This light normally flashes during ESP intervention.  The button causes the system to raise the threshold of engagement, and also keeps the system from cutting back engine power.  It is never completely disabled under normal circumstances.  
Because the ML has three open differentials, it is possible to drive anywhere in low range, without fear of damage to the system.  It works just fine on dry pavement.  Say for example you were pulling a heavy trailer through the mountains, and you just weren't doing so well.  You could put the truck in low range and continue on with less strain on the engine and transmission.

I STRONGLY recommend you have a pre-purchase inspection performed.  You might have a winner on your hands, but you need to be sure before pulling the trigger.  Don't be the guy who buys a ragged out pile of junk and wonders why it doesn't live up to the hype.

Also told me about a lease return they got.  Would run fine for a while, then just die.  Couldn't get the oil level set to save their lives.  Add a quart, the comp says it is 2 quarts too full.  Drain a quart, then three quarts too low. He pulls the oil sensor, gets covered in huge globs of sludge.  Car had 34K miles on it, oil had been changed exactly TWICE.  Once at 12K, then again when they got the car in.  22K miles on oil. He's got 46 hours in so far rebuilding the engine.

I have a friend who works at a local Mercedes Dealer, he has mentioned rebuilding many ML engines, because of a lack of oil changes.  He said they use a "oil quality" system to tell you when to change the oil.  He said they had many many ML's that the system didn't work correctly, and they were doing re-rings at 40k miles, due to the fact the oil was never changed!

He loved the trucks because he made a lot of money from them!