Currently, in most predominantly Christian countries, there is freedom of religion.

Currently, in most predominantly Muslim countries, there is no freedom of religion.

Recall that our military chaplains were not allowed to wear the badge of their office, whether cross or star of David, when we went to Saudi Arabia in Desert Storm.

Regardless of what the Koran or any other text says, show me a mullah or imam who is standing up right now and saying that what occurred at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were acts of evil, and that the people and governments behind it should be punished.

(...sound of crickets chirping...)

Exactly. You can tell a lot about people by the friends they keep.

[b]Freedom isn't free[/b]
Semper Fidelis
Jarhead out.
[img]http://www.inetnow.net/~kudzukid/enlemblem.gif[/img]

My great grandfather got his head chopped off by the Turks in the 1800's during the push to take back Greece, his wife and my grandfather / his seven brothers and sisters had to board boats in Turkey along with thousands of other Greeks to get back to Athena.  The Greeks retained christianity and language through an underground network and churches.  

Thats why the Greeks hate the Turks so bad.

Matrix, I never said we should lob nukes at anybody.  Conventional modes of warfare are an appropriate response.

Well, yes. Currently, currently.

But there were times when Christian countries had nothing like freedom of religion, and Muslim contries showed more tolerance for other religions.

We went through our dark ages, while Muslims maintained and contributed to Western civilization.

Yes, current events are what I'm concerned about here. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm not interested in what happened in Moorish Spain in the 1200s.

In other words, we offer a much greater degree of liberty, having advanced, and they generally offer repression, as in the Christian aid workers under sentence of death in Afghanistan right now.

[b]Freedom isn't free[/b]
Semper Fidelis
Jarhead out.
[img]http://www.inetnow.net/~kudzukid/enlemblem.gif[/img]

BillofRights:

If you have been reading any of my other posts you would see that I support an appropriate response against the animals that did this...not against Islam itself.

They are not Islamic Terrorists....they are just terrorists.  They cannot call themselves Islamic as what they have done is against Islamic religion & law.

I practice Islam.  I have NOT declared any Jihad against anyone, let alone Americans.  Is your intent to destroy me just because I am a Muslim?

That seems very un-American.

I can't argue with that....its why I live in America.  

There are different sects to Islam.  The sect I belong to believes in equal rights among the genders, respect for life, liberty, freedom, peace, tolerance, etc.

It does NOT condone the senseless taking of life.  The only times such actions are permitted are the same under American law:  when your life or another's life is at stake.

There have been numerous Imams on TV saying this act was evil & the people behind it should be punished.  If it turns out that entire governments are behind it I would fully support (& I suspect so would many Imams) the "punishment" of such governments...

I'd like to ask you the same question along with anyone else willing to respond:

I am a practicing Muslim.  I'm also an American.  Are you willing to destroy me just because these terrorists claim they are Islamic & doing this for the glory of God?

I know this is no defense for wanting revenge on all Muslims, but...

The terrorists claim to be fighting a jihad in the name of Allah against ALL Americans.  Not against our government, not against our military, but against everyone of us!  I have a friend who is married to a Palastinian woman, and even HE was ready to bomb the whole Middle East into oblivion!
We have entered a very interesting place, and we must all choose which side to be on.  
Take care all, and watch your six!

Matrix:

To answer your question first: I absolutely would not destroy anyone based on their religion, race, gender, or any other EEO qualification. The fact that these guys did this as part of a jihad doesn't mean that all Muslims are rallying around the flag and joining the fight against the Great Satan. I know that.

But I'd like to see a little more condemnation of the forces behind this attack by Islamic authorities. You say you've seen it; all well and good. I have not, and I've been looking for it. No one was able to post a link to anything like it in the thread I started yesterday for just that purpose. The only thing you'll see is a call for some international handholding and "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" before any action is taken. Bull5hit on that.

You say your sect is very tolerant of others, and I'm glad to hear it. Is that Sunni Islam? If not, what is it called? By and large, Islamic societies don't have that reputation, as you admitted. It appears that this attack was launched from an Islamic society, whether Afghanistan and Iraq being the most likely culprits.

The day the attacks occurred, I posted to a pretty virulent anti-Muslim thread about my next door neighbor from California, an Iranian man who was just a prince. I posted about how peaceful and nice he was, and how he loved America, and his children had become very successful here. I was using him as an example of the run-of-the-mill Muslims you will find in America. But international Islam seems to be a little more willing to spread itself and its policies by the sword than by the tongue, in my opinion.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, up to and until that interferes with another's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.

Jarhead 22:

I'm glad to read your response.

My sect: the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims...about 15 million of us world wide...a drop in the bucket compared to the remaining Muslims which make up about 30% of the world's population.

There was a "town hall" meeting a couple of nights ago on the Fox network...they had a cross section of the city there, including an Imam...I don't know which sect.

He said exactly what you have been wanting to hear.

If I find any links I will post them for you.

I happen to believe that Western culture represents the height of human achievement, and that the United States represents the highest level of Western culture.

However, I have to recogonize that Muslims made significant contributions to Western culture. The fact that the Muslims were not always backwards, and Christians not always advanced, suggests that perhaps the problem isn't Muslims in general, but some Muslims.

I'm glad to hear it, and I'll be glad to see them.

[red](emphasis by Jarhead_22)[/red]

Okay, I absolutely agree with that.

Islam has nothing on Christianity for death and destrucution. Haven't you ever read the Bible. Don't you remember the Inquasitions. Our (yes I am a Christian) Popes have sentenced more people to "meet" God, in the name of God, than any other religion going. If one would look at it from affar one could easily say Christianity is violent beyond all others. You said it best yourself, "To suggest otherwise is to ignore centuries of history"

Here's a good post on Islamic warfare through the ages -

[url]http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv2.html[/url]

Post from Steve -

Yes, the [u]Old[/u] Testament is pretty violent
indeed! But how many murders and killings were perpetrated by the Christians in the [u]New[/u] Testament?  None!

I'm pretty comfortable with my grip of history, but I am at a loss to determine just how many people were killed by the Pope during the Counter Reformation, or during the Crusades, or during the Inquisition!

Can someone please help us all and produce some verifiable estimates?

Eric The(IBetIt'sAWholeLotLessThanWe'veBeenLedToBelieve!)Hun[>]:)]

Matrix, you stated.."they cannot call themselves Islamic as what they have done is against Islamic law."

The problem is that they DO call themselves Islamic.  You wishing it was not so, does not change that fact.

They have a different interpretation than you about Islamic law.

The primary reason they wish to wage war is religious.  That is exactly what makes them so dangerous.

BTW, I respect your right to practice any religion you want.

My intent is definitely not to "destroy" you.
Please try not to personalize everything.  

I consider all the people on this board my brothers, until they prove otherwise.

Referring someone "un-American" is unnecessarily insulting.

[b]BillofRights[/b]

It is difficult not to personalize everything when this is happening in our country:

[url]http://www.glennjsacks.com/attacks_on_american.htm[/url]

These folks have made it personal by selecting whom they wish to pick out of the crowd.

These individuals who call themselves American are nothing but terrorists...just as these terrorists who claim to be Islamic are not.

Their "interpretation" goes against most views of what Islam is....as claimed & preached by most Imams/Clerics in the world.  Yes. There will always be fringe sects who promote violence...kinda like the KKK or T. McVeigh.  They will always exist because human nature permits hatred to occur out of ignorance & fear.


Just because they claim to be Islamic does not mean they really are.  Just as these Americans who have attacked others because of how they look are not true Americans...in my opinion.

I apologize if I have offended some by calling them un-American, but in my opinion, anyone who  condones/permits such violence against other Americans who happen to look like the terrorists...well....what makes them any better than the animals that did this to our country?

[b]Anyone on this board can try a simple exercise to see what its like to be a Muslim today in America:

Wear a t-shirt that says "I support Afghanistan & Terrorism"[/b]

By simply being the same color as the terrorists that is what some people in this country believe.  By being born this color, naturally all of us must be terrorists.

That is simply BS.


As to why they wage war, I have posted some interviews with OBLaden about why his hatred is so strong for the USA:

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=54653[/url]

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=54650[/url]

Religion has been the source of many a war...& continues even in our "modern" times.  The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[b]Eric:[/b]

I haven't a clue how many were killed during that period of time.

Perhaps Armdlbrl, our resident historian, can assist us?

As to the "Christian responses to Islam" website you linked.  A Christian interpretation of Islam?  Thanks for that objective link.   [:|]

How about asking a Muslim what Islam is about? How about reading some websites that discuss what Islam is? How would a Chrisitan or a Jew or any other denomination know what Islam is unless they practice it?  Seems like an adversarial interpretation to me.

I'm sure a case can be made for Christianity & Judaism being just as bloody.

But that is a whole other issue that I am not qualified to debate.  I am not a historian & frankly don't care what happened 12 centuries ago.  

I do care about what is happening now & why it flies in the face of everything I have been taught as a Muslim.  So, since my sect promotes Peace & Tolerance it is at least plausible that not all Muslims adhere to violence to "protect" their faith & that there are some in Islam who are not bloodthirsty savages out to spread Islam by the sword.

Have you ever considered that there may be a New Testament in Islam?  That there may be an Imam who interprets the Quran for the betterment of its followers & the betterment of the world in general?

I cannot remember ONE instance when our Imam even remotely promoted violence.  He has promoted education, peace, tolerance, etc., but NEVER one word have I read or heard from him that discusses Islam as a violent religion.  He has worked tirelessly for the betterment of his followers & those in 3rd world nations.

How about we agree to disagree & leave it at that?  I'll leave you to practice your faith & you can permit me to do the same....although I did take a few moments to browse through your link to see that it is nothing but a Christian promoting Christianity...as he should since that is what he believes.  Why would a Christian or a Jew or whatever say anything positive about another religion?  To do so would mean that their faith is possibly flawed.

It all boils down to faith...believe what you will.

[%(]