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Posted: 9/17/2001 1:34:48 PM EDT
Something to think about: [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html[/url]
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 2:51:44 PM EDT
I sure a heck don't agree with this author's socialist bent, but I think asking why this happened is important. I respect you for bringing this up, but I predict you will receive nothing more than the usual name-calling and accustations of "anti-semitism" and "sympathizing with terrorists."
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 2:58:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Something to think about: [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html[/url]
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Clearly, American interventionism is one of the reasons the Islamic world hates us. They hate us for our all our interventionism in the Middle East, even that intended to help them. For example, Bin Laden, a Saudi national, hates us because we were there to defend Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War. Yet another reason they hate us is our prosperity. And yet another is our Western belief system. However, the British newspaper seems to think that it is because:
the US giant has rewritten the global financial and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe;
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Frankly, I doubt the Middle East cares about any of the above. This sounds more like the gripes of European socialists. The paper goes on to say:
. . . bombed Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations; maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
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I doubt that our bombing of Christians in Europe (in support of Muslims!) angered Middle East Muslims very much! The other stuff no doubt contributed to their hate of us.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 3:08:03 PM EDT
We are hated because we come to the defense of a country when they are invaded. We are hated because we try to prevent genocide. We are hated because we respond to terrorist attacks on our sovereignty. We are hated because we defend Israel. I personally don't mind being hated for those reasons.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 3:09:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2001 3:09:31 PM EDT by Bigshooter]
Most people (those with good intentions and bad) don't like outsiders interfering with their affairs. Combine that with religious extremism and the hardships of war and you are likely to see this very thing come about. Before this happened I would have said that I think the U.S. has a collective choice to make. If we are going to continue to police the world we are going to have to deal with people like this. Now the choice has been made for us and there's no turning back. Tripped on my fingers...
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 3:28:19 PM EDT
Something else to think about: why are the ONLY articles to which you're posting links ones that blame the US for what happened?
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 3:49:10 PM EDT
Most people (those with good intentions and bad) don't like outsiders interfering with their affairs
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That is a very interesting choice of words, considering that we rarely get into the internal affairs of a country. Israel appreciates our help. The people of Kosovo appreciate our help. Kuwait certainly appreciates our help. Wrt the attacks on Sudan and Afghanistan, they are harboring known terrorist. We are now not only holding the terrorist responsible, but also the countries that harbor them.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 5:44:57 PM EDT
They don't hate us because of Israel, they hate Israel because of us. We are everything they aren't/can't be/won't be. We are the shining light of freedom in the world and they hate that. They want the entire world to bow down to their religion. You think [b]we[/b] have bad bureaucrats ... Norm
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 5:55:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Magic: We are hated because we come to the defense of a country when they are invaded. We are hated because we try to prevent genocide. We are hated because we respond to terrorist attacks on our sovereignty. We are hated because we defend Israel. I personally don't mind being hated for those reasons.
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I agree with you, but it is much simpler than all that. They are jerks, they are schoolyard bullies with guns. They are hate filled little men that feel so worthless and angry they must spread hate and death to make themselves feel better. They pick the US because we have freedom, ideals, money, and power. They picked us because we represent the exact opposite of what they have, bondage, the Quran, poverty, and impotence. Those of you looking for excuses like interventionism should consider YOU are making excuses for killers. What they did is what they did, they killed many innocent people for NO reason other than their own hate. The terrorists are responsible for their actions, no one else.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:12:52 PM EDT
This is the same kind of blather that even some members here would have us believe! Crap! Maybe our foriegn policy could use a tune-up. Maybe our international record ain't spotless. So fuckin' what? Does that excuse the responsible? Let's root out and mercilessly kill ANYONE ASSOCIATED IN ANY WAY WITH SEPT 11!! THEM THAT DID IT! THEM THAT PLANNED IT! THEM THAT PAID FOR IT! THEM THAT KNOWINGLY ASSISTED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM! THEM THAT KNEW ABOUT IT AND DID NOTHING! This needs to be a class operation, swift and ruthless, deadly and accurate. Well folks, I guess swiftness was asking too much. I can only pray that our intelligence and criminal investigation community does a good job in the end. I want us to nail those responsible, not innocents. Anarchy sucks, and some of the kill-'em-all-nuke-'em types around here should realize how bad all this acrimony and divisiveness on this chat board makes us look. This place has been a basket case since Tuesday. Ruck up and do what's right!! We are AMERICANS, damn it! Hate is for the other guy - we only want respect. I better not see anyone fuck with the arab-American guy down at the corner store, or chase some innocent Sikh just because he wears a turban around here. There ain't no terrorists to shoot, too bad they're in Afghanistan or somewheres, but any local civil anarchists, mosque snipers, synagoge burners, rioters, or looters just might get their asses shot.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:17:01 PM EDT
Another of many anti-Semitic posts.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:37:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Another of many anti-Semitic posts.
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So one has to be a supporter of Israel to not be an anti-semite?
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:41:38 PM EDT
I can't believe you are from Georgia, you moron.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:43:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2001 6:43:53 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By RamblinWreck: I can't believe you are from Georgia, you moron.
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WTF was that about. I am referring to many posts by the same author. You and I have had several friendly conversations and I think that was uncalled for. I wasn't attacking you.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:45:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Those of you looking for excuses like interventionism should consider YOU are making excuses for killers. What they did is what they did, they killed many innocent people for NO reason other than their own hate. The terrorists are responsible for their actions, no one else.
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I haven't seen or heard anyone make any excuse for the bastards who did this. I've yet to see anyone here say we shouldn't blow them to kingdom come. There's a difference between excusing something and asking why it happened. If a serial rapist is released from prision and rapes again, I don't think anyone would look to excuse the act, but I think a lot of people would look beyond the act itself and ask how and why it was that it happened.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:50:14 PM EDT
The growth and influence of the free, secular world is a threat to their existence. For that they will always hate us, regardless of our position in regard to Israel.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:50:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RamblinWreck: I can't believe you are from Georgia, you moron.
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Wow, that's, uh, profound.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:53:04 PM EDT
I haven't seen or heard anyone make any excuse for the bastards who did this.
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I read the article as one big long steaming pile of an excuse.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 6:54:18 PM EDT
LARRYG, you attack me every time I mention I'm for cutting aid to Israel, or sticking up for innocent Americans of arab color or culture! Called me an anti-semite, even! Twice! Ragging on your fellow Americans because yer pissed about WTC - well, who ain't? For the record I do NOT equate WTC with our support of Israel. Never said that and don't agree. If you check my long posting history, you will find I advocated my opinion that aid to Israel should be cut long before WTC. That does not make me an anti-semite IMO, heck some of my best friends are Jewish! So if you are not attacking me personally, then I withdraw my comment wholeheartedly. Otherwise, lay off the antisemite label, you don't know me.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:00:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2001 7:00:17 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By RamblinWreck: LARRYG, you attack me every time I mention I'm for cutting aid to Israel, or sticking up for innocent Americans of arab color or culture! Called me an anti-semite, even! Twice! Ragging on your fellow Americans because yer pissed about WTC - well, who ain't? For the record I do NOT equate WTC with our support of Israel. Never said that and don't agree. If you check my long posting history, you will find I advocated my opinion that aid to Israel should be cut long before WTC. That does not make me an anti-semite IMO, heck some of my best friends are Jewish! So if you are not attacking me personally, then I withdraw my comment wholeheartedly. Otherwise, lay off the antisemite label, you don't know me.
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I was referring to the continous, as in daily, strings started by the same person, rehashing the same old crap. I was not attacking you, wasn't even thinking about you and had apparently forgotten seeing your posts. It has been a long week without much sleep. Let me ask this though. I am not saying you are, but if you are not anti-Semitic, why the call for cutting aid to Israel and the apparent dislike for same? Besides, I'm a Tech fan and can't stand UGA [:D]
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:20:38 PM EDT
OK. I apologize for that moron crack. I am generally in favor of making Japan, Europe, and Israel pay for their own defense. I am in favor of those who wish to contribute to whatever nation be free to do so, without the government forcibly taxing all of us to pay as well. I am in favor of ending the income tax and abolishing the IRS and BATF. I am sick of religious fanaticism of all ilks. I don't think Georgia guardsmen should be in Bosnia. I don't think a single American soldier's life is worth getting involved in the battles of other countries. I've been to Israel. I worked with a Israeli defense firm on a night vision project. I am very familiar with the Israeli culture (not necessarily the same as Jewish culture). There will never be stability in the middle east, and there is little Americans could or should do about it. What we should do is mercilessly identify and kill anyone who had anything to do with WTC or ANY act of terrorism. I know we agree on that! [pissed]
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:27:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2001 7:32:45 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Wreck, if you ever thought I was attacking you for defending Arab-Americans, that was a misunderstanding. I do not advocate people treating them as the enemy and if I ever encountered such a situation, the attacker would be eating .45 ACP hors d'oeuvres. While you don't connect WTC and our aid to Israel, but that is all certain people have harped on to the extent of saying that we got what we deserved and that is what I have been reacting to. We disagree about foreign aid and involvement as I feel that is to our advantage to maintain defensive arrangements with other countries. We can disagree civilly as long as we both detest the mangy mutts.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:31:30 PM EDT
It's the typical socialist / United Nations theme of either bring the United States down to the level of the third world nations or artificialy raise them to our level. It is absolute bullshit....
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:49:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG:Let me ask this though. I am not saying you are, but if you are not anti-Semitic, why the call for cutting aid to Israel and the apparent dislike for same?
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So you equate cutting aid to Israel with Anti Semitism? That is the same as equating ending Affirmative Action is racist. That has as much truth as that gravity makes objects fall up. I have no problem with Israel existing as a country. But their problems are not our problems. Let them deal with their problems how ever they see fit. It is not our place to give them taxpayers money. If you want to donate money to them, that is fine, but don't take my money. Foreign aid is not even a Constitutional Permissible act. That is one reason I oppose it. I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be an Anti-Semite. You, sir, are a hateful man.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 8:07:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2001 8:09:38 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By libertyof76:
Originally Posted By LARRYG:Let me ask this though. I am not saying you are, but if you are not anti-Semitic, why the call for cutting aid to Israel and the apparent dislike for same?
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So you equate cutting aid to Israel with Anti Semitism? That is the same as equating ending Affirmative Action is racist. That has as much truth as that gravity makes objects fall up. I have no problem with Israel existing as a country. But their problems are not our problems. Let them deal with their problems how ever they see fit. It is not our place to give them taxpayers money. If you want to donate money to them, that is fine, but don't take my money. Foreign aid is not even a Constitutional Permissible act. That is one reason I oppose it. I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be an Anti-Semite. You, sir, are a hateful man.
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No, I equate anti-Semitism with the contents of the articles that you keep posting links to. Maybe you don't agree with the articles you are linking to, but the articles themselves are anti-Semitic. They try to sound intellectual and common sensical, but they are in reality very racist. The one on this post sounds downright cowardly and suggests that we do nothing in response to the WTC disaster. I don't believe that I am the hateful man in this matter.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 8:48:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2001 8:50:22 PM EDT by Bigshooter]
Originally Posted By LARRYG: No, I equate anti-Semitism with the contents of the articles that you keep posting links to. Maybe you don't agree with the articles you are linking to, but the articles themselves are anti-Semitic. They try to sound intellectual and common sensical, but they are in reality very racist. The one on this post sounds downright cowardly and suggests that we do nothing in response to the WTC disaster. I don't believe that I am the hateful man in this matter.
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I think you throw the term "anti-Semetic" around too loosely, just as many people do with the term "racist." What the heck does the term mean to you? To me it means an illogical or un-founded hatred of Jews. That's not the same as openingly and honestly questioning the wisdom or fairness of U.S. support of the Zionist cause. I oppose U.S. support of Israel for many of the reasons Wreck mentioned above, and because of the U.S.S. Liberty incident, the Johnathan Pollard (sp?) spy incident, and well, simply because I really don't see how the U.S. benefits from getting entangled in the whole damn mess. That doesn't mean I have a hatred of the Jewish people, as the term implies. And yes, I think the U.S. should have expected that if we insist on getting deeper and deeper into middle east conflicts that one day the conflict would come home. In my mind, that in no way excuses what happened or means that I think we somehow deserved that terrible trajedy. What really bothers me is how open debate and free thought is squashed by people who throw around such terms. Its one thing to disagree with someone in an debate and present a rational argument supporting your posistion.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 3:58:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigshooter:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Those of you looking for excuses like interventionism should consider YOU are making excuses for killers. What they did is what they did, they killed many innocent people for NO reason other than their own hate. The terrorists are responsible for their actions, no one else.
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I haven't seen or heard anyone make any excuse for the bastards who did this. I've yet to see anyone here say we shouldn't blow them to kingdom come. There's a difference between excusing something and asking why it happened. If a serial rapist is released from prision and rapes again, I don't think anyone would look to excuse the act, but I think a lot of people would look beyond the act itself and ask how and why it was that it happened.
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Search by the screen name of the guy who started the thread, he's got plnety of excuses.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 4:05:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2001 4:16:47 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Bigshooter: I haven't seen or heard anyone make any excuse for the bastards who did this. I've yet to see anyone here say we shouldn't blow them to kingdom come. There's a difference between excusing something and asking why it happened.
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Big - You are using logic that is all too subtle for many in this forum. I have tried to explain it to them. They don't WANT to get it. Best I can figger is that they get a rise out of sounding tough, and the "kill 'em all" mindset makes them feel manly. Yeah, ONLY a wimp would look at causitive factors, and see what lessons are there to be learned. And of course, doing that is mutually exclusive from demanding justice on those who murdered our countrymen.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 4:11:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2001 4:14:38 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
The reason this happened, is the same reason that people commit crimes or are rude. [red]They are murderous jerks because they want to be.[/red] The simple minded may not understand that. They will insist "there must be a reason, something they are reacting to". No there isn't, they are thugs end of story. A truly liberal excuse making mentality. I realize that a lot of you on here are looking for a "reason" so that you can appease the terrorists. That says a lot about your character. First sign of adversity and you fold like a $2.00 card table, [b]Are YOU truly that wimpy???[/b]
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 4:47:12 AM EDT
Yes, and I think that some people throw around the term 'Zionist' too much! It is, after all, the [u]sole[/u] word that Bin Laden and his crew use in referring to Israel and its inhabitants! You shouldn't be using words that only our enemies use! I mean, when is the last time that you referred to the American middle class as the [b][i]'Bourgeoisie'[/i][/b]? Hmmm? And don't tell me that's what the Israelis refer to themselves as, because they simply don't! In times past, they may have proudly called themselves Zionists, but after Israel was created and then 'won' in 1948, the word went out of vogue among Israelis. BTW, you don't refer to Black Americans with the 'n' word, simply because they sometimes refer to themselves that way, do you? Eric The(IThoughtNot!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 6:48:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: You are using logic that is all too subtle for many in this forum. I have tried to explain it to them. They don't WANT to get it.
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How utterly arrogant. If someone disagrees with you, it's not that they have a different opinion, it's that they "don't WANT to get it."
Best I can figger is that they get a rise out of sounding tough, and the "kill 'em all" mindset makes them feel manly.
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Or maybe they are just PISSED OFF because someone just killed THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT AMERICAN CITIZENS and want to vent WITHOUT some do-gooder lecturing them for it.
Yeah, ONLY a wimp would look at causitive factors, and see what lessons are there to be learned. And of course, doing that is mutually exclusive from demanding justice on those who murdered our countrymen.[rolleyes]
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Not mutually exclusive, just not the first priority. There will be plenty of time for that sort of debate after the terrorists who planned this and the governments who supported and financed them have been punished.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 8:56:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2001 1:16:59 PM EDT by AmOTramp]
I feel Israel does our bidding. To always blame Israel without questioning our countries motives is unfair and to simple. "Nothing is done in politics by chance." We are not privy to the intelligence information our country gathers, so It's nothing more than speculation on our parts to try and make sense of what is going on. Israel is just a political whipping post and probably always will be, but we are better off having her than not. I say double the money we give her and let her be more independent of our politics.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 9:14:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Something to think about: [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html[/url]
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OK, I thought about it and determine they are full of SH*T.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 9:52:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ECS:
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Something to think about: [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html[/url]
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OK, I thought about it and determine they are full of SH*T.
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Oh ECS, you just don't WANT to get it...
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 11:40:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: The reason this happened, is the same reason that people commit crimes or are rude. [red]They are murderous jerks because they want to be.[/red] The simple minded may not understand that. They will insist "there must be a reason, something they are reacting to". No there isn't, they are thugs end of story. A truly liberal excuse making mentality.
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I don't believe that. They do have a reason, however wrong and evil that is, it is still a reason. Do not make the mistake of underestimating them. To defeat your enemy you must understand them. And I'm not making excuses. Where have I said that their reason for killing makes it ok to kill. These people need to be punished and defeated. But we must understand them to accomplish that.
I realize that a lot of you on here are looking for a "reason" so that you can appease the terrorists. That says a lot about your character. First sign of adversity and you fold like a $2.00 card table, [b]Are YOU truly that wimpy???[/b]
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Who said anything about "appeasing" the terrorists? Who said anything about letting the terrorists off the hook? They must be punished to stop them from doing it again. But we must find out WHO did it and WHY they did it so that we can be effective in eliminating the threat.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 11:48:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigshooter: I think you throw the term "anti-Semetic" around too loosely, just as many people do with the term "racist." What the heck does the term mean to you? To me it means an illogical or un-founded hatred of Jews. That's not the same as openingly and honestly questioning the wisdom or fairness of U.S. support of the Zionist cause. I oppose U.S. support of Israel for many of the reasons Wreck mentioned above, and because of the U.S.S. Liberty incident, the Johnathan Pollard (sp?) spy incident, and well, simply because I really don't see how the U.S. benefits from getting entangled in the whole damn mess. That doesn't mean I have a hatred of the Jewish people, as the term implies. And yes, I think the U.S. should have expected that if we insist on getting deeper and deeper into middle east conflicts that one day the conflict would come home. In my mind, that in no way excuses what happened or means that I think we somehow deserved that terrible trajedy. What really bothers me is how open debate and free thought is squashed by people who throw around such terms. Its one thing to disagree with someone in an debate and present a rational argument supporting your posistion.
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Originally Posted By garandman: Yeah, ONLY a wimp would look at causitive factors, and see what lessons are there to be learned. And of course, doing that is mutually exclusive from demanding justice on those who murdered our countrymen.[rolleyes]
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You both hit the nail on the head.
Originally Posted By LARRYG: No, I equate anti-Semitism with the contents of the articles that you keep posting links to. Maybe you don't agree with the articles you are linking to, but the articles themselves are anti-Semitic. They try to sound intellectual and common sensical, but they are in reality very racist. The one on this post sounds downright cowardly and suggests that we do nothing in response to the WTC disaster. I don't believe that I am the hateful man in this matter.
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I don't see how asking why something happened is the same as being anti-semitic. Can you please show me where in that article Anti-Semitism is? I can't see it. You are right though in that the aritcle doens't address what to do. That is a flaw in an otherwise good article.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 12:22:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: You are right though in that the aritcle doens't address what to do. That is a flaw in an otherwise good article.
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No, it's really one of many flaws in a very flawed article.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 12:41:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 12:41:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Something else to think about: why are the ONLY articles to which you're posting links ones that blame the US for what happened?
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He seems to feel guilty about something. Maybe he has it too easy as Rush said today. The people who seem to work the hardest against conservative America are the same freaks who support deviant lifestyles, abortion and for the most part they live off of others. Rarely do they produce anything or actually work. This is not to suggest that I am labeling the author of this post as these things. Just thinking out loud.
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