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Posted: 9/15/2001 4:54:50 PM EDT
My department just got a S**T load of grant money. The bosses are looking for projects to spend it on. We currently have some Mini-14's for the guys. We are allowed to carry AR15's of our own, but only a few guys have them (We don't get paid much). The detective division had just served 4 search warrants, I had my M4gery and one of the other guys had a department Mini-14. At the end of the search warrants I pointed out to the Lt. how much easier it was for me to move through the houses and yards with the AR vs. Mini-14. I then suggested that we take some of the grant money and buy AR's for the detectives. He turned to me and said, "NO. You write up a proposal to equip the entire department with what ever rifle you want. If you want scopes or lights put it in there. So here I am. I want a to get semi auto only Colt 14.5 inch M4's with A1 field sights (trying to deputy proof them), Sure fire M500A and Trijicon TA31's. Any comments or suggestions are welcome. I also need to find LE supply houses that can fill this order and I need to know what model number this configured M4 would be (without the light and scope). Thanks, Luckystiff
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:06:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2001 5:07:11 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:07:37 PM EDT
I don't know if these guys are any good, but here's a place [url]www.impactguns.com/store/product399.html[/url]
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:10:23 PM EDT
Give Kiesler's Wholesale a call. 1-888-543-7537 They give LE discounts.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:10:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2001 5:11:09 PM EDT by black-gun]
Contact the mfg`s and get competitive quotes on a leo quantity purchase.....you`ll be surprised......(what about mp5`s?)...[:)]...........bushy-armalite-rra- whoever will sell direct to dept`s
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:13:59 PM EDT
I have a TA11 on my personal rifle. I lean toward the BAC scopes vs. the reflex. Our SWAT team uses the reflex and I do like it, but for our area I feel that our patrol deputies would be better served with something with some magnification.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:18:00 PM EDT
We are selling off our MP5's and replacing them all with M4's for the team. We have found that the .223 does not go through walls like a 9mm does. We also want something that will defeat body armor. One of our VERY nasty local dirt bags showed up in court with a vest on. That kind of changed things. Boss only wants Colts. He trusts them.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 7:02:15 PM EDT
BE CAREFUL OF COLT. THEY HAVE BEEN BOUGHT OUT AGAIN, I THINK THIS TIME BY FN. COULD BE GOOD BUT TOO MANY BUY OUTS, I BELIEVE HAS AFFECTED Q&C. THEY ARE HAVING LONG WAITS FOR ORDERS TO BE FILLED AND HAVE HEARD NEGATIVE STUFF ABOUT THE CUSTOMER SERVICE. BUSHMASTER HAS THE CONTRACT FOR SPECOPS M-4'S. YOU WILL NOT GO WRONG WITH BUSHY!!!! I HAVE TRIED AND TRIED TO GET OURS TO GO WITH BUSHY BUT THEY CAN'T SEEM TO SEE PAST THE LIFETIME WARRANTY OF ARMALITE. GOOD LUCK
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 7:07:57 PM EDT
Luckystiff are you looking for help on what firearm to get or how to write the grant for the money[?]
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 7:10:25 PM EDT
[url]http://www.bushmaster.com/le/[/url]
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 8:09:02 PM EDT
Why not look into buying from Cavalry Arms and getting a bunch of LEGP rifles? You'll likely be able to get more for your money using that route..
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 8:35:01 PM EDT
Tell your boss the "Colt" is well.....Colt.... - y'all need to look elsewhere. He "trusts" them because they are and old American icon. I'm sure their contract M4's are up to snuff, but all things being equal, you could get more for your money from another company IMHO. Good luck!
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 9:58:59 PM EDT
Colt's recent rifles are, in my opinion, crap. I wanted to buy M4's for my team and was told the price had gone up to $900+ and a year wait. I told them fuck you very much and bought G36K's. If I were you, I'd get a G36K with iron sights to test. Much better system than the AR15. You can get it with iron sights and a picatinny rail for mounting scopes. If you must have M4's, I concur with pakrat- have had nothing but good luck with Bushmasters. Colt doesn't make anything with an A1 upper anymore. In fact, when I called them they said they are only making two M4-type weapons anymore- the M4A3 with the 14.5" barrel and the one with the 10" barrel. Not much selection, and their attitude is if you don't like it, feel free to buy someone else's product. If you want semi-auto only, get a 16" barrel or a 14.5 with a welded-on flash hider. If you get a regular 14.5" barrel even in semi-auto-only, you have to deal with the BATF transfer bullshit, which will add 6-9 months to your getting the guns.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 10:37:39 PM EDT
Bushmaster makes an A1 upper that they will configure any way you want. They also sell directly to departments. Quality is outstanding, and they have M4 barrels with 1/9 twist. Jerrys Sports Center in PA has the best distributor prices I have seen for both BM and Colt. As to the Colt v. BM, I have both, and prefer the BM. The trigger on a standard BM is much better than Colt, which is much more difficult to rapid fire due to the trigger mechanism reset. If you get ready to teach a course on tactical rifle, let me know and I'll ship you a copy of my lesson plan. It is compiled from among others, Denver PD.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 11:08:20 PM EDT
I am one of my departments Range Masters and armorers. They sent me to the Beretta and Colt LE schools this year and I am slated to go to the Remington school before the new year. I am a member of ASLET, NTOA and IPOA. I would love any help you can offer, like lesson plans. I do not think I could get a Bushy past the boss. If he had it his way we would probably still be carrying single action army .45's and 30-30's. Not to say that these are not fine firearms just that they are not state of the art. So if I can't get what I want what do you suggest. Right now I am between the 6520, 6721 and the LE6920. My department does not have a history of being the first to have something. I'm going to have an up hill battle as it is and can not see them going for something as new as the H&K G36. I think I would have trouble with some of the troops as well. Not all Cops are into guns and understand their function and design. The guys like and trust the M16/M4/AR15. Please keep the comments coming.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 3:47:37 AM EDT
Simple is better. A1 sights don't do as well at CQB. The A2 sights have a bigger close range aperture and are much easier to acquire. We have M16A2 carbines with A1 sights, and we have either drilled out one of our apertures or replaced the rear sight with a larger aperture sight. It makes a very big difference on rapid acquisition. Scopes are all well and good, but what are you using the rifles for? Your officers should rarely, if ever, be in a spot where they will need a scope to get an accurate hit, and a suspect at scope ranges will often not pose a threat that can be lawfully engaged with deadly force. A scope of any type is just something else to break, and most of your applications, Patrol or Detectives, will be at CQB ranges, where iron sights (maybe with tritium inserts) will be much quicker to acquire. One of our snipers uses a Trijicon on his carbine, but his zero tends to drift. The illuminated reticle is nice, but the rest of us never even bothered to draw them from the armory. I use the rifle close in, and the scope just gets in the way. Go spartan. Rifle. Tac Light. Sling. It has the additional benefit of being an easier sell to Admin and gives you fewer items to get bids on.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 7:32:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2001 7:33:49 AM EDT by ckapsl]
Originally Posted By 199: If you can, put some of that grant money into rifle training.
View Quote
I second that. Send a couple of your trainers to a good rifle school like FrontSight or GunSite for a tactical rifle / urban rifle course. The money will be very well spent. Have them come back and share some of the training with the rest of your team. A link (I am not affiliated with anyone): [url]www.frontsight.com/class5.htm#2pr[/url]
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 8:04:33 AM EDT
Get a HK 21 instead! [img]http://www.flash.net/~scfische/animation/HK21.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 8:30:07 AM EDT
Luckystiff- Have you gotten your boss to look at the Forum? He might do well to read up on this for a while. My vote goes for a Bushmaster Dissipator A2 platform in the pre-ban or LE-only configuration: Hogue forend and grip(forend makes a good solid mount for light sysyems); Redi-Mag extra ammo carrier; possibly the lighter contour or fluted bbl. for weight/balance preferrence; Vortex or Phantom flash suppressor. This gives you a full sight radius with a minimum of extra baggage on board for a K.I.S.S. carbine. The training school idea is an excellent augmentation to the purchase of the new carbines. Have fun shopping.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 11:32:27 PM EDT
You guys do not know my boss. Or should I say Bosses. They are very bull headed. My department is small enough for me to have direct access to all levels of admin and so far this year they have been lessening to me. They know Colt and and like their products. We have several M4's for the SWAT team and narcs. If I push to hard we will be stuck with the F**king Mini-14. I do not think I like the 6721. Why do I need a heavy barrel on a 16" patrol rife? I have an M4 (real one) and own a 6520 (16" Lt. weight) and like the light weight of the rifle. I like both of these but prefer the M4. I have never seen first hand or handled one of the 6920's. This is the 16" M4 semi set up. Any one out there have any experience with one of these? Are they any better than a 6520? Also anyone know if an AR15 set up with a sure fire M500A will fit into a locking rifle rack in a patrol car. And if so what brand/model #. Thanks again. And for those of you who have e-mailed me with lesson planes ext. THANK YOU!!!!
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 11:46:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Luckystiff: We are selling off our MP5's and replacing them all with M4's for the team. We have found that the .223 does not go through walls like a 9mm does. We also want something that will defeat body armor. One of our VERY nasty local dirt bags showed up in court with a vest on. That kind of changed things. Boss only wants Colts. He trusts them.
View Quote
The same thing happen here. only after the guy left he had a shoot out with the cops.Luckystiff WHY ONLY SEMI HELL I'D GO FOR BURST THERE PAYING FOR IT!
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 11:52:42 PM EDT
These rifle will be put into every car. There is no way in hell my department is going to put full auto or burst fire into the cars. "If one got stolen." "What would the public think.". Hell the boss likes the Mini-14 because it has a wood stock and is not as threatening. Every department has an idiot. Some have more than one. I will not, not ever, write up a recombination to place full auto into every car. Now if I could pick and chose who gets what, well then maybe.
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