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Posted: 9/14/2001 9:00:39 PM EDT
I have a question for the ammo experts on the board. Whats the best round to use if we arm our airline pilots? I think most pistol caliber rounds like a 9mm or 45APC will over-penetrate and cause a lot of damage and maybe even decompression of the cabin. Would a TAP round be better?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:23:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:26:15 PM EDT
How about a hollow-point .22? Maybe bird shot from a .410 or 20 gauge? Or maybe a reduced charge .38 special.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:30:50 PM EDT
One of the other guys said, the marshals were armed wih .45s. Any gun in a confined space of an aircraft cabin is going to be scary. But I rather have a crew armed even with a Barrett than nothing.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:32:20 PM EDT
185gr Hydra-shock. You have to remember that you have to make the shot count. The number one reason people are dismissed from the air Marshall program is because of marksmanship issues.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:41:31 PM EDT
The best round to use ON an airplane? How about an AIM-120 AMRAAM! [:d] OK, first of all, I think a shootout in the sky would be a pretty undesireable thing (or anywhere else for that matter). There's a big difference between firing weapons in a 747 and a 711! One round in the wrong place could bring down the aircraft. I think flight crews would be better served by a chemical weapon of some type. There's no chance of over-penetration, it would be handy against nasty passengers, and most important of all, there's minimal training required. Remember we are 'gun people' that already know what we're doing for the most part. Most flight attendants won't know which end of the 'bullet' to stick in the magazine. But OK. To answer the question: If I HAD to pick a round, it would be some type of Glaser Safety Slug.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:53:08 PM EDT
Glaser blue tip in .45ACP. It will have enough power to do some good while minimising or eliminating penetration issues. I have seen Glasers smear along a piece of 5/8" drywall without punching thru. Oh, and make sure to renew the window plastic - use Lexan. That stuff will take a direct sledgehammer shot without breaking... FFZ
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:57:45 PM EDT
I am speaking from a point of experience. pepper spray is effective so is an air taser but a stun gun is not worth a damn. As far as ammunition I suggest that you look at DR. Faggler studies and you will understand stopping power. You also have to look at the possibilities of multiply targets.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 10:00:31 PM EDT
The problem with pepper spray is the confined space. Anyone who has used some indoors will tell you this is not a good idea. They have evacuated whole buildings because of little in the air ducts.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 10:13:18 PM EDT
I think the antiterrorist groups use a 9mm subsonic frangible round. Dont quote me for sure, but that would make sense. I personally would want a .45 with some Glasers or other frangible.And no doubt, remember to make your shot(s) count. If it hits the bad guy, over penetration should be minimal, no ricochet either. But if you miss, I dread the thought. Chem weapons are a good idea, but in a confined space like a plane, collateral effects to the other passengers would be a liability.Last time I was around a can of pepperspray when it was used , it stunk the whole house up[:)] PERSONAL WTC Update! My cousin Eric is alive, and doing ok. We found him earlier this afternoon in Beth Israel Hosp. He's coming home tomorrow with a few broken bones,And scraped up pretty good, but fighting mad, and thats a good sign. He was two blocks away from ground zero when the towers came down. He doesnt remember much. Just running and being hit by big stuff.Thanks for all your well wishes, I've passed them along and they're greatly appreciated. Its been a scary few days trying to find him in the hospitals during the aftermath of this.Needless to say what he's been through!And I'm happy to report, That this former anti will be soon joining our ranks. He has a newfound appreciation for self preservation! God bless the USA!God bless All the recue workers! Synweap223 Out!
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 10:14:53 PM EDT
I forgot about Tasers. A cop once told me that a good hit with one will drop anybody. Hey! Why didn't my smiley thingy work?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 10:34:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2001 10:49:26 PM EDT by shooter505]
Because no one is smiling at the present time. Please understand that frangible ammo is mostly used in practice with steel targets.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 11:44:14 PM EDT
Ollie North said they should use frangible, but I don't know if he's an expert or not.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 6:31:40 AM EDT
Bean bag shot from a short bbl shotgun. No chance of penetrating the cabin skin and stops the BG's (not the singing group) long enough to cuff 'em.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 7:44:29 AM EDT
Tasers do not always work, watch the Rodney King video. Like pepper spray, they are usually effective. Great for the drunk first class passenger bullying a stewardess and defecating on the drink cart (true story, of course he wasn't peppered). Unfortunately, "usually" doesn't cut in the kind of situations we have been forced to anticipate now. I'm thinking something that hits really hard close up but loses energy rapidly might be the best bet.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 7:54:07 AM EDT
FMJ is a no-no since there is a good possibility that it will exit the intended victim, pass through the skin of the plane and cause rapid and possibly catastrophic decompression. When Air Force OSI went to using Hydra-Shocks in the mid 90's I was told that one of the reasons is that they were very well suited to use in hi-jack situations for these very reasons.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 8:45:16 AM EDT
I understood that the Glasers were specifically designed for the Air Marshalls. Either that or the Magsafes. I think the Glasers function better because the plastic plug gives the round the same shape as an FMJ, where the Magsafes have the big hole facing forward. I shot honeydew melons with Magsafes and Glasers. In several cases, even though the melon was totally destroyed, the jacket of the round was found inside the husk. Obviously, this was no scientific study, but I was curious, and it was enlightening. [b]Freedom isn't free[/b] Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. [img]http://www.inetnow.net/~kudzukid/enlemblem.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 8:51:55 AM EDT
50 BMG
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 9:20:54 AM EDT
Gas! Just put everyone on the plane to sleep.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 10:08:59 AM EDT
One issue with frangible ammo like the Glaser is that it sometimes will not penetrate heavy winter clothing. It will not penetrate a skull even at close range. The Glaser will not penetrate very deep into a body and it leaves a very small permanent cavity. And there is a issue with accuracy with the Glaser. There are several interesting and informative books and video tapes done by Dr. Fackler on the subject of wound ballistics. Another interesting source of information is Dale Towerts Stopping Power Page. These are two good sources for information that you can draw your own conclusions from.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 10:19:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter505: One issue with frangible ammo like the Glaser is that it sometimes will not penetrate heavy winter clothing. It will not penetrate a skull even at close range. The Glaser will not penetrate very deep into a body and it leaves a very small permanent cavity. And there is a issue with accuracy with the Glaser. There are several interesting and informative books and video tapes done by Dr. Fackler on the subject of wound ballistics. Another interesting source of information is Dale Towerts Stopping Power Page. These are two good sources for information that you can draw your own conclusions from.
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Who cares? What is important here is the safety of the plane NOT the best terminal peformance on the person. Use double taps and head shots if at all possible. Laser sights to ensure that no heads are in the line of fire and to permit firing from odd angles.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 11:01:45 AM EDT
Nothing that penetrates. An airplane is nothing more than a long aluminum tube that wants to explode due to the greater pressure inside than out. I think a bean bag would be the best option or rubber bullets at a low velocity (less than 600 fps). I really think a taser gun that fires 50,000 volt rounds would be the best PDW on an aircraft. themao [chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 11:39:00 AM EDT
50 Bmg!
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 4:23:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MG_ME: 50 Bmg!
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He said "on", not "against"! :)
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:09:50 PM EDT
Use gas to put everyone asleep (seal the cockpit though)till they can be cuffed. Also devise a 4' DMZ just behind the cockpit that if anyone enters... a mesh grate activates to imprison them in a cage space.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:14:30 PM EDT
Have any of you guys have been to Japan? They have these tube hotel rooms. They look like bee cells piled in a row. We should have these in the airplanes. Put a person in each one until the flight is over. I personally would love to lie down a sleep through a flight.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 5:37:53 PM EDT
Yes, but it's kind of difficult to poor those little bottles of scotch lying down. :)
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 6:28:15 PM EDT
Armdlbrl the question was about ammo type. Not about tv type antics with lasers. Since you appear to consider yourself an expert please tell me what ammunition you would use and why? TRW and I say the Federal Hydra-shock for empirical reasons. Have you ever carried a handgun into harms way and had to use it?
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