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Posted: 9/14/2001 6:58:25 AM EDT
It seems the terrorists behind the bombing wanted to be known and eventually traced. If they had this much planning, how hard would it be for them to cover up their tracks a little better and even cause more confusion? Given the situation, it's not too hard to predict what the US would do in this situation. Do you think it's a possibility given the complexity of the NY city attack that these organizations with these big financial backing governments may have something "waiting" for us in the middle east?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:44:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2001 7:44:09 AM EDT by kramrd]
I agree... we kicked Sadam's A$$ once already... how can he rally his troops who were defeated into fighting again without giving up? I'll tell ya, I wouldnt be surprised if he lets a nuke go! Or some other chemical or biological weapon! He will motivate his troops by telling them that they CAN win because this time he will unleash this deadly arsenal. I'm still concerned that they're still not done! There were already other attempted acts yesterday including highjacking another plane! Thank God none succeeded. M.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:48:31 AM EDT
kill 'em all and lot God sort 'em out.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:05:14 AM EDT
This is something I have been thinking about off and on. I don't think the terrorists really thought they would be as successful as they were. I think the success was as big a surprise to them as it is to us. I don't know, but the evidence left behind could have been to embarass us. Or maybe they are just stupid. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:20:54 AM EDT
I expect car and human bombs in the larger cities, like L.A. They have had years to setup cells in the U.S. Anyone up for some EMT classes?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:26:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GWF: This is something I have been thinking about off and on. I don't think the terrorists really thought they would be as successful as they were. I think the success was as big a surprise to them as it is to us. I don't know, but the evidence left behind could have been to embarass us. Or maybe they are just stupid. Just a thought.
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I think they just didn't care. They were so focussed on the task at hand, they didn't stop to think about what they might leave behind as an impression or evidence, nor what the effect of their deed on the American people might be, other than what they wanted it to be. Desperate fools.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:27:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kramrd: I'm still concerned that they're still not done! There were already other attempted acts yesterday including highjacking another plane! Thank God none succeeded. M.
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According to all the news sources, those reports yesterday were inaccurate.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:30:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kramrd: I agree... we kicked Sadam's A$$ once already... how can he rally his troops who were defeated into fighting again without giving up? I'll tell ya, I wouldnt be surprised if he lets a nuke go! Or some other chemical or biological weapon! He will motivate his troops by telling them that they CAN win because this time he will unleash this deadly arsenal. I'm still concerned that they're still not done! There were already other attempted acts yesterday including highjacking another plane! Thank God none succeeded. M.
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If they let a nuke go, all bets are off. That would be exactly the pretext to introduce our own tactical nukes. The long-term effect of that? Not positive, I'm sad to say. We might REALLY have to go it alone, then. Look for our European and Asian allies to suddenly want to pack up and go home, though, when that happens. I agree- they are still out there. And I wouldn't be surprised if they are in the NE someplace, just waiting.......
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:33:05 AM EDT
I have been thinking what are the possibilities that each of these groups were sent here independent of each other and with out any knowledge of the others only with the act they were to train and plan for. Tactically it would make better sense that way and explain the evidence left behind which could only lead back to the group that sent them. But would not indicate any others with plans. Also this could explain the arrests yesterday. These people who carried this out attended our flight schools which would take time. Which leads me to belive there are more groups of them here to continue the violence against our nation. These people are hate mongers and any retaliation against them will only bring more violence on their parts. And reinforce their belief that what they are doing is right for what ever reasons they have. Unfortunately I know this is long form being over no matter what action our leaders proceed with. The only thing is I hope they find and punish those who have supported and planned these events so this may never happen again. I certainly hope that my theories are the most wrong in the world. I am LE officer and my heart and prayers are with those in DC and NYC, As well as the nation. [heavy]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:34:13 AM EDT
I'm seeing too much "evidence" to be comfortable. I think a lot, if not all, of this stuff is planted. With the intent of misleading us. If these guys could do all the detail work necessary to make this happen, with the requisite secrecy, I don't believe they would leave that messy a trail behind unless they want us to find it and react unintelligently. There's a bigger plan in motion. Sucker bait is how I read a lot of what's out there right now and I'm wary of ambush. Appropriate and forceful reaction is however required.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:48:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Arock: I'm seeing too much "evidence" to be comfortable. I think a lot, if not all, of this stuff is planted. With the intent of misleading us. If these guys could do all the detail work necessary to make this happen, with the requisite secrecy, I don't believe they would leave that messy a trail behind unless they want us to find it and react unintelligently. There's a bigger plan in motion. Sucker bait is how I read a lot of what's out there right now and I'm wary of ambush. Appropriate and forceful reaction is however required.
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I agree... this may just be a small part of a larger plan... we need to be on our toes... [IMG]http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Sep/20019143918074613206840.jpg[/IMG]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:53:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scarecrow: kill 'em all and lot God sort 'em out.
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YES I AGREE
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:14:58 AM EDT
There's something about Pakistan that I just don't trust. We've all heard how close they were prior to the Taliban and the fact that they have nuclear weapons. Why are they so cooperative all of a sudden? It's not like they were enemies with Afghanistan and would like to see them eliminated. Also, relations between the US and Pakistan aren't always on the up and up. Yet, we are taking their word and putting our confidence in them. I don't know but I could see all of this escalating really quick. Especially with Russia, another country I would never trust, reversing their support of military action by the US and NATO. Don't get me wrong, I think we absolutely need to do this but we should be cautious of a bigger plan.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:24:10 AM EDT
I have never and never will trust Pakistan. Once we place troops on the ground in Pakistan, they'll keep the Taliban informed of our movements so that whatever we do there will be no suprise to the Taliban. As for Iraq, Isreal has had an Missle Defnse System since the Gulf War ended. All we need to do is put them on notice to shoot down those Iraqi scuds. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to cause those WMDs to go off over Baghdad rather that U.S. troops or god forbid Isreal.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:24:36 AM EDT
Just kind of thinking out loud, but what about a concentrated, prolonged terrorist attack on the US AFTER all of our high speed boys are playing elsewhere? I know there are a lot of us around here who are prior service and own weapons, but what type of security can we provide without intel? I hope the NG is ready to rumble, because I don't think we have seen the last of it on our turf.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:29:52 AM EDT
Then again where in the Middle East is there a country that has an effective police force?? These were terrorists, not master criminals. THey either didn't think about or care about how to cover their tracks after the completed their attack. They were probably arranged in "cells" and given targets and times just before they were to act. They had no knowledge of the other groups. That would make them hard to find but not impossible to trace. They would need documents to enter the counrty and board the planes. If they stayed for any time they would need places to live. How did they get there money?? Credit cards are also easily traceable and bank accounts can also be checked. Rental cards can be traced, and may have been left at the airports that the terrorists flew out of. Maybe it isn't a trap but a testimony to how well LE can reconstruct a suspects activities after they know who they are investigating.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 7:29:56 AM EDT
Hmm, I was thinking the same thing. But if we move in troops and any thing happens. I do believe that Nukes would be used. We still to my knowledge have I.C.B.M.s that could if not have been re tasked for that region. I do not think they would mess with us. The Middle East is scared as hell right now of what we could do. [frag]
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 8:43:12 AM EDT
Janes Security about Pakistan on 9/20: "As the United States plans its military response to last week’s terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, the role of Pakistan — and the position of the country’s unelected military leader, General Pervez Musharraf — have become key questions. JID investigates and warns that, should the general fall as a result of offering overt support to the USA in its campaign against the Taliban, the consequences – both for the US-led alliance and the entire region – could be potentially catastrophic. "
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 8:45:40 AM EDT
Definitely possible, which means we need to either out-think or out-gun them.....preferably BOTH!
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 9:01:39 AM EDT
I think Bush is aware of many of the potential problems upcomming and may even be using Afghanistan as a fake focus for action against a yet to be announced REAL mastermind. This is what my "What is the worst that can happen?" thread was about. Is China involved? They seem to be the info gathering Kings of the Hill. Nukes are at the ready. Things are quiet here now. I am a little nervous. They still have not released news flights, tourist sightseeing flights, airship flights and traffic watch. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 9:05:28 AM EDT
My fear? We get our guys in one place and they get gassed.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 9:23:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 9:24:10 AM EDT by MOLITAS]
Originally Posted By maddog71: [b]There's something about Pakistan that I just don't trust. We've all heard how close they were prior to the Taliban and the fact that they have nuclear weapons. Why are they so cooperative all of a sudden?[/b]
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They are being cooperative with the United States because they wish to remain in our good grace. Pakistan has strained relations with both China and India. By supporting our campaign they hope to receive support economically and militarily from the US and it's allies. Although a large percentage of it's people disagree with supporting the US the Pakistan government see's this as the smart move.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 9:47:40 AM EDT
I still don't trust their intentions especially with an UNELECTED MILITARY leader at the helm. All initial intentions, good or not, won't really matter in the end if they overthrow him or he decides to cave in due to the pressure of his own people.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:09:48 AM EDT
If this leader [general] in Pakistan is a strong military leader with full backing of his troops, we should allow him to use any force necessary on his civilian population. maybe even assist him in doing so. He would be getting rid of the radical element in his country, get cozy with the U.S. [get money], Afghanistan, as we know it, would be gone. He would be a much stronger leader with an American air base in his country. Don't trust Egypt. If Egypt aligns with other middle east countries and attacks Israel, we will see nukes go off. China will move on Taiwan. It will be THE LAST WAR OF MANKIND
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:20:45 AM EDT
Egypt aligning with other middle east countries? It has already started... World Tribune: Egypt rejects U.S. coalition, upgrades ties with Iraq CAIRO — As a policy debate rages at top levels in the Bush administration over attacking the regime of President Saddam Hussein, Egypt is moving to improve relations with Iraq. Egyptian diplomats said President Hosni Mubarak plans to raise the level of representation between Baghdad and Cairo to the level of ambassador. They said diplomatic ties would be raised commensurate to the level of trade relations. Egypt has refused to participate in a U.S.-led military coalition against any Saudi billionaire fugitive Osama Bin Laden or any of his government sponsors.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:14:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman: If this leader [general] in Pakistan is a strong military leader with full backing of his troops, we should allow him to use any force necessary on his civilian population. maybe even assist him in doing so. He would be getting rid of the radical element in his country, get cozy with the U.S. [get money], Afghanistan, as we know it, would be gone. He would be a much stronger leader with an American air base in his country. Don't trust Egypt. If Egypt aligns with other middle east countries and attacks Israel, we will see nukes go off. China will move on Taiwan. It will be THE LAST WAR OF MANKIND
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HA! Last war of mankind! That is a joke! Even if it were to go nuclear, China has what, a dozen ICBMs, which we could easily destroy before they got off the ground by B-2's and ALCMs with conventional warheads. We have 3000 nuclear weapons. Any country that tried using nuclear weapons against us would be destroyed and they know it. Russia is the only nuclear power we have to be concerned about, and right now they are as eager to see Afganistan get its but kicked as we are. And I am sorry to dissapoint you Sinophobes but China seriously dislikes Muslims, they have lots of problems with their own Muslim minorites. They have no interest in getting involved in this. They wont go to war on their behalf. And they are a decade away at least from being able to crack Taiwans defenses.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:22:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 12:22:39 PM EDT by trickshot]
A little OT, but I talked to a structural engineer who worked on similar buildings and he thinks that the WTC collapse should not have happened. The building was about 4 acres square and should have easily absorbed the 757 crash, even a dead center hit. All the talk about the fire burning at 1800 degrees, etc. is bullshit. The fuel was nearly all spent in the first seconds, hence the huge fireball. The resulting fire inside burned the walls, papers, furniture and yes, people. That fire caused the collapse. This engineer contends that poor fireproofing of the structural columns is to blame. Steel can be protected from very high temperatures if encased in the right materials. There is not way a jet crash could undermine a properly protected building. He further speculated that a lot of buildings erected in the early 70s could suffer the same fate if a fire breaks out. He also wondered if the mafia or other corrupt organization may have skimmed money out of the project by skimping on certain materials such as fireproofing or weakening the cement mixtures. What does this mean? It means that their success was far beyond their own calculations. I also happen to think they used up all their assets on the one attack.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:30:27 PM EDT
He further speculated that a lot of buildings erected in the early 70s could suffer the same fate if a fire breaks out. He also wondered if the mafia or other corrupt organization may have skimmed money out of the project by skimping on certain materials such as fireproofing or weakening the cement mixtures.
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This is highly likely, the investigation and subsequent inditements will be interesting to watch. This would be a strange way for the LCN to come to a end, wouldnt it?
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:43:21 PM EDT
I don't really think it matters in a possible "bigger" plan of the attack whether the WTC collapsed or not. Do you think the US would have reacted differently if it didn't but plenty of people still died from the crash, fire, and smoke? I don't think so. The US would have reacted the same way they are now which leads to my whole suspicion of a possible trap. They knew we would be coming for them regardless and their sympathizers would grow.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:47:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 12:47:46 PM EDT by operatorerror]
trickshot, I am not an engineer, so please bare with me. A 757 weighing ? tons travelling at 400-500mph and containing a full load of fuel is quite a formidable destructive device. Add into that equation the relatively small size of the impact area equates to a very hard, focused hit, and the containment of the fire to a small, intensely burning area can contribute greatly to structural failure. If you watch the film of the collapse, you see an effect referred to as "pancaking". One floor fails, falls to the next level, this in turn collapses the next, and so on at an ever increasing pace due to the increased weight and momentum. Soon the entire building is in freefall. It looked like it was liquefied. I'm not saying that there was not faulty building construction, just that I really don't think the engineers would or could predict this ever happening. I feel nauseous after typing this. And if you think they are done, you are wrong.
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