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Posted: 9/12/2001 1:07:01 PM EST
...what EXACTLY Israel has ever done for us???? Did they rush to our aid in "Nam??? When the Beirut barracks was bombed, did they apprehend anyone for us??? On any hurricane, tornado or natural diadater, did they send any aid to our wounded?? Have they even yet apologized for killing our 96 sailors on the USS Liberty on a FOUR HOUR LONG friendly fire napalm attack in 1967???? What I would like someone to do is make me a tangible list of tangible benefits we get from being Israels ally. [b]I don't want your commentary - JUST a list of TANGIBLE benefits to being their ally.[/b] I keep hearing everyone saying "they do LOTS of stuff for us." But no one ever gives details of what that is. I'll start you off 1. They provide us "intelligence." (apparently nothing that would ever stop a terrorist attack, but "intelligence" none the less.) 2. (OK, your turn)
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:09:03 PM EST
they surplused us all their crappy orlite mags now that they use our aluminum ones.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:11:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:11:16 PM EST
They give the A-rabs something to shoot at besides us. They kill off a few terrorists now and then.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:13:26 PM EST
They are...uh....jewish?
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:14:55 PM EST
Amended list - 1. Inteligence 2. Crappy mags 3. Crappy ammo 4. Backstops OK, # 4 is a tangible benefit. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:15:28 PM EST
They keep the Holy Land from turning into an oversized Dearborn, Michigan?
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:24:14 PM EST
OK what is your point? Do you have a Bible? Have you read it? Can you read? Plus what does Israel have to do with this anyway? This is an attach on us from the other sand flies. Plus the US is a super power Israel is not. All of you people need to pull your head out of you asses. Anger in this situation is normal, don't misplace that anger. Go off half cocked and blame people that had nothing to do with this. All of this stupid anti Israel talk makes no since. It is evident that Americans (some) are ignorant and just as bad as the people that did this to begin with.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:26:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:28:00 PM EST
1. Port for Aircraft Carriers 2. Prostitutes for sailor boys 3. Air bases for refueling and support 4. Warfare weapons testing (seriously) 5. Jewish food, some good 6. Techniques in "haggling"
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:30:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By garandman: Amended list - 1. Inteligence 2. Crappy mags 3. Crappy ammo 4. Backstops OK, # 4 is a tangible benefit. [rolleyes]
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Since when is Q3131-A considered crappy ammo ???? How about any of youse guys who don't like your ammo send it to me huh ???[:D]
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:32:35 PM EST
They have given us the largest lobby group in DC. They suck $3billion a year from our taxes. They promote stability in the Middle East. Right. [rolleyes] After we kick the shit out of the responsible terrorists and their hosts, we should consider cutting aid to Israel, and let those who care about Israel kick in their own money for a change. Why should I give a rat's ass about Israel? They're as bad as the arabs they hate. Let them kill each other - it ain't my fight! [sniper]
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:37:40 PM EST
They helped Jonathan Pollard, what more can you ask for?
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:40:35 PM EST
I don't think it is fair to blame Israel for any of this. Given all the shit that the Germans gave the Jews, and the fact that they had no where to go and the other European nations sure as hell didn't want 'em, I think that they've done a pretty good job of holding their own in a land which has been continuously hostile to their presence. That, and we are the United States of America. We are strong, proud, and united; we defend the weak. Sometimes we get bit in the ass for it - that doesn't make it any less right.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:41:17 PM EST
They are like all our other allies. they do alittle bit. Grandman, don't be mistaken, our allies serve theirselves first. Like America should.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:50:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 4:43:36 PM EST
They made my way cool 308 AR Galil...
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 3:08:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Armitage22: That, and we are the United States of America. We are strong, proud, and united; we defend the weak. .
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OK, let's explore that concept - we defend the weak. Right now, Israel is weak(supposedly) We aid them, and they eventually come to be superior to the Arabs. Does that mean we switch allegiances to the Arabs, cuz now THEY are weak?? If we do, eventually, the Arabs gain the upper hand, and we have to switch our allegiance back to Israel. For the last 40 years, THIS is EXACTLY what US policy has been. In essence, we have perpetuated this Middle East war by funding BOTH Israel and the Arabs at different times. The East Timorians are weak. The Checheyns are weak. The Sudanese are weak. But we DO NOT support ANY of them. Apparently, this idea that "We support the weak" ONLY applies to Isreal right now. The only tangible benefit I can see to this policy is that the body bag industry is BOOMING.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 3:14:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: You would be suprised at the amount of equipment and material we have based there. Foward based equpiment and supplies allows us deploy much quicker to the region.
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But isn't our aid and presence the the CAUSE for needing our presence their??? In other words, the only REASON we need to deploy to that area is BECAUSE we support Israel. If we quit funding Israels war effort, we won't need any reason to have a military presence there. Our presence there is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Our presence there CREATES A NEED for us to be there. That's silly to me.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 3:25:10 AM EST
Post from garandman -
If we quit funding Israels war effort, we won't need any reason to have a military presence there.
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So I take it, garandman, that YOU did not support Desert Storm back in 1991, and that you do NOT think that guaranteeing the free flow of oil from the Middle East is in the United States's interests? 'Cause in the entire Desert Storm military conflict, Israel was not 'on the board' as a player, but only as a spectator, albeit a targeted spectator at that. Eric The(Hmmmmm?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 3:41:01 AM EST
I don't know if we get a lot in return for our support of Israel, but I do know they're the only Democracy over there and that's worth something.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 3:59:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:00:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: So I take it, garandman, that YOU did not support Desert Storm back in 1991, and that you do NOT think that guaranteeing the free flow of oil from the Middle East is in the United States's interests?
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that's a fair question. To answer, NO. NOT when you consider that our ENTIRE oil needs, as a nation, can be met for the next 50+ years, with deposits up in Alaska. That we own. That we can EASILY get to. that would cut gas prices by some estimates 75%. that the eco-Nazis won't let us touch. That said, once we got in their, it was my opinion that we should have either found and captured, or if necessary, killed, Saddam Insane. No half measures. Also, on the Fourth of July after the return from Desert Storm, I stood in front of a USGI at a state park in Eastern CT, and cried, thanking him for his service to his country.
'Cause in the entire Desert Storm military conflict, Israel was not 'on the board' as a player, but only as a spectator, albeit a targeted spectator at that. Eric The(Hmmmmm?)Hun[>]:)]
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Actually, I think you underestimate Isreals role in the Gulf Conflict. We launched many sorties from Israel, if memory serves. Of course, they cried no tears over that. Their "policy" is that the ONLY good Arab is a dead Arab. They were more than happy to help us do their killing for them. I just think we, as a nation, need to STOP financially agreeing with that policy. Or we better come up with a new policy of our own - that the body bag will become our new national icon.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:17:11 AM EST
The fact that Israel is the only countering country to the likes of Iraq, Libyia, etc in the area is probably an unimportant issue. What happens when they are overcome by their neighbors? I suppose the rouge states will just be happy and decide to play nice. Iraq will decide to discontinue their biologic and nuclear programs. Cume ba ya…
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:20:06 AM EST
I have never picked a friend based on what they could, or someday may GIVE me. I steer away from people who do.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:45:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer: I have never picked a friend based on what they could, or someday may GIVE me. I steer away from people who do.
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I appreciate your moral resolve, and I share it. I would appreciate your willingness to NOT make assumptions about my charachter UNTIL you hear me out. IF indeed that is what you have done. (disclaimer so that I am not making assumptions [BD] ) A question (or two)- ' Have you ever ENDED a friendship because said "friend" was only using you, and brought harm to the ones you love????? Have you ever ended a friendship because said friend KILLED 34 of your loved ones, and NEVER apologized for it, tho you gave them over 30 years??? (reference USS Liberty) I agree with your asessment of picking and keeping friends. My assertion is that Israel is NOT our friend. Or at least they got a REAL funny way of showing it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:47:37 AM EST
Post from garandman -
NOT when you consider that our ENTIRE oil needs, as a nation, can be met for the next 50+ years, with deposits up in Alaska. That we own. That we can EASILY get to. that would cut gas prices by some estimates 75%. that the eco-Nazis won't let us touch.
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For the time period we're talking about, the oil in Alaska might as well have been on the moon! It would have taken years to crank up any more oil production there, as opposed to reopening oil production in the Persian Gulf!
We launched many sorties from Israel, if memory serves.
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Well, your memory is not serving you well in this matter. There were absolutely NO sorties flown from Israel by the US or any coalition nation. It would have collapsed the whole war! Eric The(StillUpOnMyGulfWarHistory)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:56:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:58:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2001 6:01:27 AM EST by Schnert]
They spy on us. That is to say that they pay American citizens to betray our country's secrets and national security. So I guess all of the Israel defenders out there could argue that they "support our economy" by providing funds to certain seditious individuals which in turn prompt growth in the market.[;D] Did anyone mention that?
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:11:42 AM EST
Israel has always supported us in the UN. Israel was the first to come to our aid when the Embassy was taken in Tehran. They offered anything we needed, also Israeli Commandos wanted to come along. Israel has provided intelligence, whether our leaders listened to it is another story. As for Pollard he sacrificed himself to send information to Israel that was critical to saving civilians, abnd that by treaty we were to provide them, but our government with held it. Israel did not attack Iraq, we asked them not too. They sat there and lived in terror of Scud attacks for months. And the raid n Entebbe was lead by an American, from the Philadelphia area. Direct your anger at those that did thjis not at our friends.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:17:09 AM EST
Hey Garandman, Don't you know by now that you can't say anything negitive about Israel. You will be branded an anti-semite for life! Right on brother, 88.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:19:48 AM EST
Gman, Sorry, I was not attacking your character, I was attacking a general point of view. Let me ask you something though. Has the US ever been involved in the death of an allies soldier? For that matter have we ever been responsible for the death of a soldier in our own military? If I am hearing you right, then our allies should abandon us, for that matter we should abandon ourselves. The truth is, mistakes and bad judgment are part of life. I just feel like we should judge with the same criteria as we wish to be judged with. Yes I have discontinued friendships because they were abusive. I have also, on occasion, had to eat my words and actions because I was wrong in my judgments. There are two sides to every story, and the truth is ALWAYS somewhere in the middle.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:21:06 AM EST
1. They watched as the truck that killed the Marines in Beruit drove by .......never called to warn us. 2. They took the SAMs(new ones) to ferry to Iran for Casey & Reagan (for holding our hostages until too late for Carter to be reelected; see book "October Surprise") replaced the new ones with the old SAMs, raised the price tenfold, passed them on to Iran and po'd them into starting the Iran/Contra bs. 3. They helped Madeline Albright and the rest of the Zionist US foreign department jerks (under Clinton) SCREW-UP our foreign policy and IMHO had alot to do with our loss of human-intel assets (see comments & accusation by Admiral Moorer on Newsmax). Those are just a few things off the top of my head they have helped us with. "By Way of Deception" - good book by former Mossad agent. What's that old saying, "with friends like that..." Mike
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:21:17 AM EST
They took the Arabs land.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:40:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer: Let me ask you something though. Has the US ever been involved in the death of an allies soldier? For that matter have we ever been responsible for the death of a soldier in our own military? If I am hearing you right, then our allies should abandon us, for that matter we should abandon ourselves. The truth is, mistakes and bad judgment are part of life. I just feel like we should judge with the same criteria as we wish to be judged with.
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TTF - That is also a fair question. Friendly fire is a FACT of war. An if memory serves Israel WAS in a state of war at the time. But friendly fire incidents do NOT last several hours long (if memory serves, it may have actually been longer) NOT when the ships commander is radioing the attacking Israeli gunboats to cease fire. NOT when you are in the middle of the Mediterranean, in a clearly marked US ship. And even if it DOES happen, you apologize. We have given them 30 YEARS of opportunity to do so. To my knowledge, they have not. I also agree that you BE judged by the same sdtandards that you judge with. In that vein, I will say this - that we sever ties with ANYONE who has done the above to us. The list is VERY short. And YES, if we have done ANYTHING of this sort to our allies, meaning specifically what I have mentioned in this post, that we have not apologized for, then YES ABSOLUTELY, our allies should abandon us, becasue these actions would make us, the USA, skallywags of the first order.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:45:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2001 6:53:09 AM EST by garandman]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: If Israel didn't exist, they would still hate us. .
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You are making an assumption that I believe NEEDS to be tested before we take steps to all out warfare with the entire Arab world (or at least more of it than we really want to fight) My suggestion to test it costs NOTHING. It actually saves money. And lives. Simply QUIT funding Israels war machine. And continue treating Arabs as we have. The veritable "level playing field." I propose we'll see two results - 1. The Arabs suddenly QUIT bombing us. 2. Israel suddenly gets VERY cold toward us. Some friend. Some ally. They like us for what they get out of us. Nothing more. IMO. The term "ally" is SUPPOSED to be a two way street. Lastly, if that doesn't work, then we turn any hostile Arab nation into a big crater hole, and we link back up with Israel. I think that is immensely sensible and fair. But then, I ALWAYS think my suggestions are. And as my wife reminds me, I'm kinda biased towards me. [BD]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:47:01 AM EST
Okay, I have no particular concern over Israel, or their particular religion. So lets dump them, in fact why don’t make up for our lack of judgment. Lets support their enemies and make the playing field even. (Now the terrorists will like us, right?) Now what happens in the Middle East? Does everyone play nice now, because Israel is no more?
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 6:49:33 AM EST
Israel = A good way to funnel covert operations that is not known to the general public. Do you really think the US allies themselves to a country with no mutual benefit. Israel benefits from our weapons such as the F16. We benefit by the use of their "resources"
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:01:18 AM EST
good topic, as usual... We could get into some serious subjects when it comes to what Israel's "done" for us. For one, Israel's(Mossad) has been the ONLY intel. allowed into all of our Top Secret outfits, screwing us, time and time again. It has been known(but never reported in the media)that Israel has been selling Top Secret US weapons/technology to China as far back as the 1970's. The only country allowed by the US to hold dual citizenship, and live in the US is...you guessed it, Israel. They are also the only people given automatic visas, no questions asked. We could go on and on for weeks, but there's no reason for it. Obviously there are lots of jews pulling the strings, not only in OUR government, but UP there, the ones REALLY running the show(Bilderbergs/Trilaterals). Unfortunatelly, the support for Israel will NEVER stop, there's way too many interests(money involved) and to the leaders of this country, it's worth sacrificing a "few" American lives, as long as they can continue to line their pockets with $. Ultimatelly, it's just BIG BUSINESS...human lives mean nothing. Every major WAR has been started by the people who FINANCE both sides, the BIG BANKS(guess who owns them). Unfortunatelly, It's all about the money, nothing else...
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:02:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer: Okay, I have no particular concern over Israel, or their particular religion. So lets dump them, in fact why don’t make up for our lack of judgment. Lets support their enemies and make the playing field even. (Now the terrorists will like us, right?) Now what happens in the Middle East? Does everyone play nice now, because Israel is no more?
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My point is that is EXACTLY what we have been doing - switching allegiances back and forth over the last 60 years. My solution is to leave them BOTH alone to fight their own battles, and quit giving them the means to kill each other. At that point, we can see how they individually behave. If they play nice TOWARDS US, fine. If either of them choose to attack us, when we are no longer siding with their enemy (as we are now siding with the Arabs enemy) then you know you've got a problem child. And then we turn them into a parking lot. Either one of them. Or both of them. I don't really care. Basically, I'm saying take care of ourselves first. And then take care of whoever takes care of themselves AND us. But I believe it is myopic in the extreme for us to side with Israel, and fund their war machine, with which they kill Arabs for kicks, and then look shocked and surprised when the Arabs attack us. Their enemies ally is their enemy. Just as our allies enemy is our enemy.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:09:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By lordtrader: Do you really think the US allies themselves to a country with no mutual benefit. "
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Well...uh... do you really think that our gov't would send 59,000 of OUR OWN to their deaths, tying their hands behind their backs while they fought, forcing them to defend ammo dumps UNARMED, and then spit them out like rancid chewing tobacco when they returned from that "war?" We need to realize their IS INDEED more going on behind the scenes than we realize (as I believe you alluded to) , and there are some VERY evil people calling the shots for our gov't. And I'm not even referring to ANY US president. I can't even say who it is. But they DEFINITELY do NOT have US interests as a priority.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:28:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman: My suggestion to test it costs NOTHING. It actually saves money. And lives.
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You seem to be willing to place the fate of a nation on your assumptions. The Islamic nations have stated repeatedly that they are committed to the total destruction of Israel. How do you propose to apologize to a people who are no more? I really believe its absurd to think that a group of people, who have dedicated their lives to causing terror and disruption, will suddenly change. Their attacks are not only on the US, but anyone who has different beliefs than them. Sure, they largely attack US interests, but if you’re trying to scare a group of people, it helps to beat up the biggest guy in the group. When we hear about a car bomb in BFE, we say “geez, how tragic” When it happens to the US we take notice. So does the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:44:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman: NOT when you consider that our ENTIRE oil needs, as a nation, can be met for the next 50+ years, with deposits up in Alaska. That we own. That we can EASILY get to. that would cut gas prices by some estimates 75%. that the eco-Nazis won't let us touch.
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About 75% of what you pay for gas is taxes. Does that mean that the oil in Alaka can be drilled, refined, and marketed for free? While it might be nice to dream that we can ignore the eco-Nazis, that is a fantasy. Its like saying "We did not need to fight the Gulf War because we can make oil just by wishing for it." Also, the oil in Alaska is not cheap to drill or transport. It is much, much cheaper to get it from under some sand dune in Quwait and transport it by tanker. And it is absolutely true that the Arabs would still hate us if Israel were gone. Our culture and our wealth are resented as much, if not more, than our support for Israel. Didn't you know that we are the great Satan?
Actually, I think you underestimate Isreals role in the Gulf Conflict. We launched many sorties from Israel, if memory serves.
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Your memory does not serve.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:44:52 AM EST
Treetop, are you suggesting it's worth losing more american lives over Israel then? Do you seriously think that the Arab extremists would suddenly stop terrorizing us if we just dropped a few bombs on them? You can expect this type of terror, on a regular basis, from now on...and it wouldn't be far fetched to say that a guy like Usama Bin Laden who's got the ching, to posess one of those 150 Russian mini nukes that have been unaccounted for since the early 90's, who's just waiting for that "rainy day" to use it. Bombs alone are not the solution. Do you think we could kill 1 Billion Islamic followers to solve the problem? Bombing the supporters of this mission AND anouncing to the world that the US supports noone from this day forth, is the answer. I doubt it will happen this way, but it's nice to dream a little.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:14:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By robino: Treetop, are you suggesting it's worth losing more american lives over Israel then?
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I’m suggesting you go back and read whatever post it was, you drew your conclusions from. As for not supporting anyone, The United States is not the greatest country in the World, and considered the world LEADER, because isolationist concepts are so effective. I suggest that Arab terrorists (as you call them) will suddenly stop terrorizing us when they are dead. All of the terrorists, and all of the entities that support them. Kind of like a deprivation hunt. Seeing as terrorists are a minority, I fail to see how Israel plays in this.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:25:51 AM EST
Post from Schnert -
They spy on us.
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We spy on them! We probably spy as well on the rest of our allies. So????? Eric The(Hell,WeSpyOnUs!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:27:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer:
Originally Posted By garandman: My suggestion to test it costs NOTHING. It actually saves money. And lives.
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You seem to be willing to place the fate of a nation on your assumptions.
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Actually, what IS certain is that what we are NOW doing is costing us lives. It used to be predominantly military lives. Now its civilians. We lost more Americans yesterday than Israel and Arabia COMBINED have lost in the last ten years, I gotta believe. It is time that ALL assumptions our foreign policy is based on be checked out for validity. That is all I am saying. And to date, NO ONE has broght forth a single good thing Israel, our WONDERFUL "ally," does for us. Other than some flimsy excuse called "intelligence." I'm tired of burying Americans because we do Israels bidding. Time for them to give back a little. AND to apologize for the USS Liberty. Allies do that for each other. Israel is a parasite - nothing more. And as I said before - let them prove me wrong. I'd love to see it. I stand ready to re-cant. Don't hold your breath tho - Israel ain't gonna do nuthin'. Bank on it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:34:02 AM EST
Spoke too soon G-man, I just heard on the radio that the Iraelies are gonna give us the proof of who was involved, said Saddam, Bin Laden & others did it. Guess that's why Israel is still on my short list (up-top) of those capable of this terrible tragedy. Mike
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:36:34 AM EST
Post from 5subslr5 -
They took the Arabs land.
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Yes, but the land is still there and the Arabs can have it back whenever they feel like taking it back, right? I mean, it's been 34 years for Gawd's sake, when are the Arabs gonna take it back? They might run into some Statute of Limitations problems if they don't act quickly! Oh, wait a minute! The Arabs [u]tried[/u] to take back their land in the October War of 1973, you know, the one THEY launched on the Jews' most holy day, Yom Kipur! (Think [u]Sunday[/u] attack on Pearl Harbor!) Sad to say, the Arabs got there asses handed back to them and suffered the loss of even more land! Not a prudent venture, IMHO. Surely you're not suggesting that WE give back any land that WE took by force of arms from the original Native Americans are you? 'Cause if so, the Statute of Limitations ran out on that a long, long time ago! Eric The(IGuessTheOriginalNativeAmericansCouldTryT­oTakeBackTheLand,ButThey'reAllGone,Now)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:40:04 AM EST
I'm sorry guys. I'm just frustrated. But I'm staring at what I believe to be a useless, dangerous policy of ours, and measuring it against dead US bodies. I'm lookin' for answers like everyone else, and just wanna make sure we don't overlook something that MAY be the solution.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:43:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: Spoke too soon G-man, I just heard on the radio that the Iraelies are gonna give us the proof of who was involved, said Saddam, Bin Laden & others did it. Guess that's why Israel is still on my short list (up-top) of those capable of this terrible tragedy. Mike
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If I am understanding the gist of this, its a fear that I am almost unwilling to voice. Namely, who stands to benefit the most by us THINKING the Arabs did it???? Too horrible to even imagine. And if true, I am gonna advocate wiping them off of God's green earth. I pray I am wrong. I really do.
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