Never mind

I feel like I'm talking to someone about why trying to apprehend a bad guy, doesn't justify shooting up a neighborhood.

I'm going flying.

Post from mr_wilson -

Watched the truck drive by? In Israel, they could see the truck drive by in Beirut? Explain this incredible feat! Details, please!

If the thoroughly discredited 'October Surprise'
b.s. is the best evidence you have to offer, then I've got really bad news for you - it's a ludicrous source for any information!  So the Ayatollah waited, not until after the election, but until the very day Reagan took the oath of office, to release the hostages. You don't think he was just scared of Reagan, now, do you?

By the way, when did George Bush have time to fly to France and Spain for the meetings with Iranian officials to set up the October Surprise? And yet no Secret Service records exist for the trip, by a man who was running for election to the Vice-Presidency of the US!
Shouldn't the Secret Service have notified President Carter that Mr. Bush was nowhere to be found?

The Jews did this??? How, please take as much space as you wish to explain how it was done!

So tell me, mr_wilson, what do you think of the Presidency of Ronald Reagan? Did you vote for him either time he ran? Or were you not yet old enough?

Eric The(SoundsLikeAnti-SemiticCrapToMe)Hun[>]:)]

And I, to someone UNWILLING to think "outside the box."

Have a nice flight. FAA is letting you go up?????

As for the GUlf War, Isreal was more than ready to help. The U.S. was too afraid of retaliation to let them help. If you remember, Isreal had it's Nukes on the Launch Pads ready to turn Iraq into a glass parkinglot. The U.S. told them not to, because we were afraid that if they helped then Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Kuwait would turn against us. Plain and simple they would help if we asked. The keep us informed of Middle Eastern Problems and they make some damn good guns (Uzi, Galil, Tavor)

Can you name one time the U.S. ever had to bail Isreal out militarily. We only provide them with Guns, Magazines, and Ammunition. The Isreali Defense Force does the rest. They held their own without U.S. aid in 1948, The Six Days War, The October War, and numerous other attacks as well as the current Intifadahs.

See?? here is where the arguments conflict.I keep hearing from certain people that Israel is so weak, we have a MORAL duty to protect them.

But my impression has alway6s been as you have stated - they are QUITE capable militarily. Heck, IMI is some of the best 5.56 in the world.

SOOOOOOOO, if Israel is so capable militarily, (which I believe you have correctly stated that they are)why do we need to help them???

Comparatively, the ONLY way the Arabs can attack us is by flying someone elses plane into our WTC, and murdering our citizens.

Wouldn't that, in reality, make the Arabs the weak ones???

NOTE: I denounce the Arabs actions, and believe it is time to go git 'em. But I see some holes in our foreign policy that I believe need exploring.

Do you ask your "friends": "What have you done for me?"

I hope not.

Israel is our Ally.

And I like Q3131A.

No.

But when the bodies start stacking up, I feel compelled to question their motives.

The whole point is that it is PREDOMINANTLY a one-sided friendship, IMO. That is called "infatuation," and not becoming of a nation over 200 years old.

Sorry but I must comment. What did Nam give us for us to be thier ally? The US is a "moral" country and that is why we are involved with Isreal. We felt bad for the Jews after WWII and now we help them out with there new country.
[sniper]

Its OK to comment. I was just being a butthead. [BD]

I agree whole heartedly. WHAT DID 'Nam benefit us???

Ostensibly, we were going to fight Communism, and for freedom. But we fought it so poorly FROM THE TOP, that we accomplished neither. Just 59K dead.

But as I have asked now for the third time - if we ALWAYS defend the "weak" (another assmption I have questioned with regard to Israel) wouldn't that necessitate changing our allegiance every time the balance of power shifted in the Middle east?

OK, we helped Israel out after the Holocaust. But what if Israel gains the upperhand, and starts annihilating the Arabs? Do we then help the Arabs?

This isn't a silly question. In fact, it describes EXACTLY what our policy has been over the last 50 years.

Or does "defending the weak" ONLY apply if they are Jewish?? there are plenty of weak nation-states out there. The Sudanese, the East Timorains, the Checheyns. We don't defend them. ONLY the Jews.

Doesn't wash, IMO.

Based on biased reporting we have gotten via the media (which EVERYONE admits is CEO'd by Jewish persons and Jewish sympathizers - its all in black and white who heads up and owns the media in this coutry) we have this false impression that Israel is lily white in all this. Heck, the US isn't lily white in all this.

For Eric the Hun:
Sorry took so long, I'm at work and type too slow. Here are your answers:


1. They did not see them from Israel, but their operatives were aware of the construction & modifications of the truck via their intel assets (they have infiltrators into almost every terrorist organization in the world). This was documented in the book “By way of Deception” which I listed and 2 other books which I have read, “The Cult of Counter-Terrorism” by Neil C. Livingstone and another which escapes my memory at the moment. According to mossad sources they were watching and expecting their Beruit compound to be the target and were relieved as the truck passed the turn to them. They knew full well the truck would hit either the French or US compounds and did nothing.

2. There are other sources for the October Surprise story besides the book and I will have to dig up the data, seems there was another book and articles by some english journalist, I have to visit the attic. I personally am aware of those who thought the book was crap but unfortunately the refuting of it lacked much in the way of evidence, more non-denial denials. The more I think of it, I remember something referenced to an article or interview with Jimmy Carter. All which tended to sway my mind toward the belief that Casey was more than capable of arraigning this type of operation. The plane trip was a problem for me too, even though there are those that claimed he took the “Blackbird” ……. doesn’t mean they didn’t rat-f**k the election.
You have to understand that around this time (Iran/Contra)they were still very paranoid about any of this coming out during the hearings. Lots of paper came out from both sides. Bush was former CIA and I suspect he could do as he pleased, don’t you?

3. I simply stated a fact that under Clinton IMHO our foreign policy department was made up almost entirely of Zionists, I did not call them Jews. I see Zionists as being different than simple jews. Did you bother to read the current statements by Adm. Moorer? I believed then as now that US foreign policy should put US interests first. True Zionists are bound by a code (hope I word this right) which places Israels’ interest above all others. You want to make me out a racist, go ahead it won’t change the fact that I thought then and now that Albright and her ilk were bad for our country. Besides you can’t make me one by insinuating I am.

I’m 47 and yes I voted for Reagan.
Hell Ollie North was a hero (I sent money for his defense) until the truth come out he was responsible for the murder of Barry Seals and all that Mena business ("Compromised" by Terry Reed)which he and William Casey cooked up for support of the contras. I do not believe every thing I read Wayne, but I do attempt to separate the truth from bs by researching subjects that interest me.

Have you read October Suprise?, By Way of Deception?, Compromised?, Cult of Counterterrorism? or were you just bummed about the fact I mentioned Zionists?

No Flame Intended
Mike

Post from mr_wilson -

Such as the Democratically controlled task-force that was charged with investigating the so-called 'October Surprise' allegations. The chairman was Congressman Lee Hamilton (D-IN) and the task force came to the conclusion that the allegations were unfounded!

But in looking up this October Surprise info, I found that it is nestled comfortably among other pencil-necked geek crapola about Mena, the CIA-crack cocaine conspiracy, etc. I simply don't read that sort of drivel!

If I bother to look up these other sites, what am I going to discover? More spy stories? More Bill Casey spook stories.

No thanks!

Eric The(ZionismHasNeverBeenAProblemForThisGoy)Hun[>]:)]

The Israelis are not exactly alone in looking out for themselves.  What exactly has any other country done for us?  France helped us once, some 220 years ago.  Russia sent a squadron to New York in the Civil War.  The UK let us use their bases to bomb Libya.  Has any other country ever helped us do anything?

We had to pay the Egyptians to help us in the Gulf.

Foreign relations is like life, you had better be prepared to help yourself.

I don't know about the rest of you, but here in southern California, there are some great Viet Namese restaurants.[:D]

Ericthehun,
can you tell me why a well known criminal was elected as prime minister in Israel?(Sharon)
Could it be his historic "love" of spilling innocent blood? He's famous for that.

first of all, let's put it all on the table, so that everyone can understand...I'm sure someone will be screaming anti-semitism when they're done reading.

Because of their faith, jews can tell lies with total impunity and a good concience because every year on the eve of Yom Kippur they must recite the Kol Nidre three times in Aramaic.

Here's what they recite(this is taken from The Book Of Jewish Knowledge-Crown Publishing):

-All vows [kol nidre], obligations, oaths, and anathemas, whether called konam, konas, or by any other name, which we may vow, or swear, or pledge or whereby we may be found, from this Day of Atonement until the next(whose happy coming we await), we do repent.

May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall notbind us, nor have power over us.

The vows shall not be reckoned vows, the obligations shall not be obligatory, nor the oaths be oaths.

See the Jeruselem edition, Encyclopedia Judaica 1971 The McMillan Co. pages 1166-1167.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

continued...

Ok, now that we know you have an "out", let's get into the Israeli occupation, which many here seem confused about.

After WW1, Britain and France took over most of the Middle East and didn't give the Arabs any independence as they had promised that they would.

Of course, the British had ruled in Egypt since the 1880's and so it is the colonized world against the colonial (rulers).

Israel/jews are the last colonialists and the worst of the lot.

In the normal colonial situation, the colonized people would revolt and make trouble and the colonial power would pull out.

That is the way the arab countries in that region took land back from the colonial(rulers).

The difference here is that the Israelis went in and colonized the land by force and they are maintaining themselfes by force.

The UN partition resolution which was pushed through by Harry Truman on Nov.1947 stated that Palestine would be divided into three parts:

one for the Arab state, one for the Jewish state, and Bethlehem due to the three religions in that area. The third was envisaged as an international area where Jews, Christians and Muslims would have access to their holy places.

Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state and as a member of the community of nations is legally based on a vote of the UN General Assbly. known as Resolution 181(II).

It states that on Nov. 29, 1947 the UN adopted a Resolution requiring the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.

The Israeli decleration of independence on May 14, 1948 invoked this UN resolutionas their legal charter of its existence as an independent nation.

Here's where it gets interesting...To gain the endorsement of the world forum, a succession of spokesmen appeared before the UN and its ad hoc Political Committee on Palestine vowing that the new state will always be a "loyal and law-abiding" member of the international community.

In order to gain legitimacy and membership in the world forum, Israel also pledged:

-Palestinian refugees driven from their towns and farms will be enabled to return home and;

-Israel will strictly observe the terms of the UN resolution concerning the status of Jerusalem.

-Jerusalem will not fall under Israeli rule and the city holy to all three monotheistic faiths is to be preserved as "corpus separatum".(a separate and distinct entity)

But is soon became evident that the Israeli leadership had cautiously deceived its UN sponsors.

The real strategy of the new state was to aggrandize itself into a "Greater Israel".

continued...



Issa Nakhleh, who is widely regarded as one of the Arab world's most eminent legal scholars and historians and the dean of Palestinian observers at the world forum's headquarters in New York wrote a repot which said:

Israel violated the terms of Resolution 181(II) and Resolution 194 by committing war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians as follows:

-Israel violated the territorial integrity of Palestine and (illegally) occupied 80% thereof.

-They expelled from Palestine more than 850,000 Palestinian Arabs by means of mass violence and massacres.

-They prevented the Palestinians from returning to their homes.

-The Israelis committed numerous massacres against defenseless Palestinian population centers.

-They erased small towns from the map of Palestine 492 Arab small towns and villages and usurped all of the houses, lands and property of the Palestinian Arabs in these towns and villages.

-The Israelis forcibly usurped roughly 95% of the houses, apartments and commercial buildings owned by Palestinians in 12 cities, namely: Safad, Tiberias, Beisan, Haifa, Jaffa, Lydda, Ramleh, New Jerusalem, Majdal, Beersheba and Ainkarem.

-They looted and plundered the furniture, machinery, equipment, merchandise and other worldy possessions of the Palestinian Arab in 80% of Palestine.

-They destroyed and desecrated Christian and Muslim holy places.


In 1967 Israel launched a war of aggression and occupied the remaining 20% of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.

They expelled an additional 300,000 Palestinians from these territories, replacing their razed homesteads with 200 Jewish settlements.

At present there are 350,000 Israeli citizens living in their settlements.



There can be no just and permanent peace in the Mideast unless Israel withdraws its forces and citizens to its only recognized boundries as defined by UN Resolution 181(II), the state's ONLY legal charter.

finally...

Recently, Ariel Sharon was elected as the Israeli PM.

He is a man known throughout the world for his hineous crimes against humanity, some of which are as recent as the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 where Sharon masterminded the mass-murder of 2700 defensless Palestinians while Sharon was watching from the roof of their headquarters that overlooked the camps in which the Palestinians were located.

The Isrealis even provided bulldozers to bury the bodies in mass graves.

Twenty eight Palestinian survivors presented their case against Sharon and won. An Israeli court ruled that Sharon was found to have "indirect responsibility" with the case.

Not one person involved in the killings was convicted.

The BBC aired its program, The Accused soon after in which Sharon was represented as the Accused, and the question of his legal responsibility for the massacre was investigated.

Israel's Foreign minister called the program distorted, unfair, and intentionally hostile saying that the BBC reporting contains "anti-semitism".

Journalists working for the Ha'aretz, an Israeli newspaper, have criticized this butcher as well as other Israeli newspapers yet he still remains as leader.

Ericthehun, why do we not hear about these things from you?[>]:)]

Post from Robino -

Hmmm, Sharon was a criminal? One would think that the Israeli law would forbid a criminal from running for office. Or that the Israeli people would not vote for a felon! I mean he was elected in a landslide among Jewish voters.

BTW, what [b]crimes[/b] did Mr. Sharon commit?

[b]Criminal assault[/b] against the Egyptian 3rd Army back during the October War?

[b]Illegal entry[/b] into Egypt during that war?

[b]False imprisonment[/b] of the Egyptian 3rd Army by surrounding their foolish asses on the West Bank of the Suez Canal?

[b]Criminal conspiracy[/b] to beat the crap outta the enemies of Israel?

[b]Breaking and entering[/b] into the Entebbe Airport?

C'mon, show us his rap sheet!

Eric The(Anxious,ButConfident)Hun[>]:)]

1) It's all a load of bullshit. The world would know if Isrealis had done 1/10th of what Robino described. It has been common for decades for Palestinians to make up (lie about) false massacres and attrocities without any proof. Why ? Because they never happened.

2) Jerusleam was seized by Palestinians not Isrealis during the joint Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian/Lebanonese attacks on Jeruselam (West Bank), and Isreali towns bordering the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, and Lebanonese border. Syrian Palestinians used Rockets to kill innocent Isreali civilians from the protection of the Golan Heights. Jordanian Palestinians attacked and actually seized Jeruselam. The Egyptians mounted an offensive through the Gaza Strip. Lebanonese Guirellas attacked Isrealis along their borders.

3) As for Isreal not aiding us in Vietnam
  A) They had their own troubles in the form of a war on 4 Fronts.
  B) Isreali Guns WERE used by U.S. Special Forces in Vietnam.
  C) The U.S. was losing the war, due to inept leadership. No nation wants to enter into a losing war in aid of another nation while fighting their own Vietnam in Lebanon.

Let me pose this question, what would America do if Mexicans were launching Rockets from Tijuana into San Diego. What if they launched an invasion of San Antonio (oh wait, they've tried that already.) Point is America would have done the same damn thing. What if Canadian Guirellas repeatedly attacked U.S. towns along the Canadian broder. Would we move in and Occupy Canada and Mexico. Hell yes.

Post from Robino -

Because I take out the trash, I don't repeat it!

But even in your post you admit that an Israeli Court said he had 'indirect' responsibility for any refugee camp attacks. In the United States you aren't convicted of crimes because you were 'indirectly' responsible for them. You must be directly responsible for them. What's the law like where you're from?

Gee, it's a terrible shame that Israel has done such bad things to its neighbors. You would think that the neighbors would band together and try to drive them into the sea! You know, like they put in the Palestinian Charter!

You would think that the neighbors would try to crush the new State of Israel, granted its statehood by the United Nations, before they even had time to organize a government. You know, like they did back in 1948! Sadly, the neighbors got their butts kicked.

Then you would think that the neighbors would close the Suez Canal to all international shipping because of Israel. You know, like they did back in 1956. Sadly, the neighbors got their butts kicked, once again.

Then you would think that these fine neighbors would cut off the Jews from their port in the Gulf of Aqaba, and thus deprive them of any livelihood from shipping via the Red Sea. You know, like they did in 1967, prompting a short, bloody response from the Jews! Sadly, the neighbors got their collective butts kicked once again.

Then you would think that the neighbors would permit terrorists to illegally cross their borders to bomb and machine gun kibutzes and Zionist school buses, in order to drive out the dreaded Jews! You know, like they did between the many wars, 1948 - 1973, and right up to the present day! Sadly, most of these terrorists were caught and, even more sadly, shot.

Then you would think that these good neighbors would attack the Jews on their most holy of days, Yom Kipur, in order to once again drive them into the sea! You know, like they tried to do in October, 1973! Sadly, after some initial success, the Jews recovered and basically beat the ever-loving crap out of the neighbors!

So much so, that the ever-slumbering Soviet Bear had to be awakened by the shrill cries of the neighbors for help! oh the horrors! help!
The Soviet Bear then called upon the USA, to call off the dreaded Jews! Sadly, which the US agreed to do.

Do I have the history correct or what? [:D]

The Arabs should move to a neighborhood where they can be safe! It hasn't been much of a picnic living next door to these hooligans!

Eric The(YouKnow,TheJews!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from mr_wilson -

So you truly believe that Israel is behind the terrorism at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? You really believe that's possible?

Then you are a dolt! And an anti-semitic dolt at that!

Apparently, the Jews have the wool pulled over the entire U. S. intelligence community's eyes on this one, but you, you clever anti-semitic dolt, know more then the FBI, et al.

I suppose that the witnesses who have described the hi-jackers as Middle Eastern men were simply implying that they were Israelis! I guess that all the documentary evidence that's being painstakingly gathered was planted by the Israeli Mossad!

Care to elaborate on your suspicions?

Eric The(AndAJerk!ToBoot)Hun[>]:)]

Eric,

I am not the dolt in this debate. I used the word [b]CAPABLE[/b], you sir, seem to have a real problem with the English language and comprehension.
Name calling is not my thing, so I'll ignore yours, my short list included [b]7 separate entities[/b], (how many have made your list? or for that matter how many are being investigated/blamed by the networks/government?)and yes, Israel was included for 2 reasons they have both the capability and are ones who would stand to benefit most should their enemies be found to be the culprits.

I believe we established yesterday that I read everything and that you don't read. I did ask you, did I not? You sir, ignored my question.
Check this out, I do not purport that is the truth just that it is thought provoking....

[url]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/index.html[/url]

Reading, watching or listening does not mean one must believe everything, however as an individual I [b]CHOOSE[/b] what I think and believe. I tend to take anything and everything which comes through my boob tube, internet or books with a health dose of skepticism until corroborating evidence convinces me otherwise, as an American this is [b]my right[/b]. If you choose to stick your head in the sand, that's [b]your right[/b] and I am prepared to defend that also!

As a forum, I was under the impression that this was a place for [b]ALL[/b] points of view and perspectives. Apparently only as long as they agree w/ Eric the Hun!
I respectfully disagree.......

Mike

Eric -

Some food for thought.

"Bout everyday here, we ALL commiserate about OUR gov't is trying to violate our Constitution and take away our firearms. Me included. You included.

It was an FBI agent that plugged Randy Weaver's son IN THE BACK (if memory serves) At any rate, it was  US gov't personnel.

Now you say the gov't MUST know if Israel was involved. And by implication, they would both tell the US people, and do something about it.

See the contradiction???

On one hand, the US "gov't" (actually certain individuals) would kill a child, and disarm the entire nation, and on the other hand, they would be completely truthful and act in our best interests when it comes to Israel???

Of course, its NOT the whole gov't. But you HAVE to admit, there are some TRULY evil people walking around Washington, D.C.

Evil enuf to do this??

We all hope not. But you MUST allow for the possibility. Rejecting OUT OF HAND these possibilites is NOT wise. I'm SURE Randy Weaver NEVER thought his gov't capapble of murdering his child.

Remember teh boy scouts motto - Be prepared. We all know that means "for anything."

Its simple linear logic.

[b]IF[/b] there are people in place in the US gov't willing to act in Isreals interest over our own, we already know there are people evil enuf to do this terrible act of murder. (see above)

Then all you have to do is ask yourself "Who stands to benefit the most from us THINKING the Arabs did this, and annihilating  Israels # 1 enemy????"

As a point of reference to my post right above this one, remember there are ALOT of people who suspect our gov't KNEW about Pearl before it actually happened, and allowed it to happen, in order to gain widespread public support for entering WWII.

I'll take that a bit further, and say that the REASON they wanted us to enter WWII was to annihilate Germany, MAINLY becasue Germany was the predominant threat to Communist Russia.

Think about it.

If our leaders were REALLY interested in retaliation and acting out of US interests FIRST, since it was Japan that attacked us, why did the majority of our fighting force go directly to   - Europe?? Shouldn't Japan have been the FIRST target of our wrath???

I think maybe we got "played" in WWII, and I think we may be getting "played" here. Especially when you consider that many present day Jews have ties to the Communist Party.

Now, you can either just call me an idiot, and go about your merry way, or you can THINK about this. Your choice.

Post from mr_wilson -

What question was that? Ask me again, I must have been too busy reading that 'what really happened' website you provided the link for!

And, no, you don't need the 'Hun Seal of Approval' for your philosophy or viewpoint to be considered on this Board, or by me!

So FDR, who was no hero of mine, actually let American servicemen and civilians die at Pearl Harbor just in order to get the US involved in a war to save...what, the House of Rothschild?..
the Bilderberger Group?...Adam Weishaupt's Bavarian [i]Illuminati[/i]?

This has been alleged for years and thoroughly researched by those without political vendettas and found to be woefully lacking in substance!

But that's OK with you, just cause its means that every American soldier who fought in WWII was a sucker, a patsy, clueless, and those who gave their lives in the war were the real chumps!

Hmmm, wonder how FDR figured out just how many capital ships the US could afford to lose in the sneak attack and still win the war? It must have been FDR who ordered the carriers out of the harbor, just to protect them for the real fighting! He 'knew' that battleships were just relicts from past wars, and were expendable!

And FDR carefully gauged the pulse of the American people to know just how much 'infamy' was necessary to rile them up, and how much would have led to disillusionment and despair. The American people could have become even more isolationist than they were!

Now, we'll skip over the Vietnam mess, and go to the Gulf War, where our memories are fresh.

So America actually needed to hear stories about Kuwaiti infants being untimely ripped from incubators in order to pursue the Gulf War?

President Bush the First knew that US citizens were not quite prepared to repel the Iraqi invaders without the horrible lie that babies were being murdered in Kuwait City by Iraqis?

Sorry, mr_wilson, but I stopped reading this b.s., at this point. I get the drift of the article!

BTW, is Israel still at the top of your 'list' of who may be resonsible for the recent terror?

I retract my statement, you, Sir, are clearly not a dolt!

Eric The(ButSomethingWorse,IMHO)Hun[>]:)]

Garandman, England used its influence to make Germany America's first interest. British Agents in America were charged with making sure that U.S. politicians decided to make Germany and not Japan its first target. They succeded at that. In addition, these British agents tried and succeded at keeping German Attrocities in the Public Eye. British Agents took pictures of Jews in mass graves and other Holocaust attrocities and made sure that the pictures made it to American powers that be. In addition to using true stories, false stories were spread by British propogandists. In fact, one such false story prompted FDR to give an Anti-German speech. When he found out, he decided not to mention it since he had made his speech already.

the statements written in my previous post are real, and not made up.

for the record, I'm no fan of Israel, or any other country surrounding it, and neither of them are "angels".

they have all commited acts of terrorism against one another.

The US government is no saint either, and in my opinion, it is the Big Daddy of propaganda, and thought manipulation of its people.

If any of you guys honestly think that your government, OUR government does, or EVER did anything to benefit only US, the American people, then you're living a dream.

Some "homie" said it best..."it's all about the Benjamins."

Post from mr_wilson -

Yes, well, I have no problem with the English language and am pretty familiar with the subtle nuances of the King's English.

You could say to me - "You know, Eric, your dear sweet mother is capable of being a first class whore."

When you awoke later in the Recovery Room, one of your first lucid thoughts might be - "You know, I probably shouldn't have used the word 'capable', since that implies [u]having traits that are conducive to the action described[/u]. I know that now because I had one of the nurses bring me the most recent [i]Webster's New Collegiate  Dioctionary[/i], and read the full definition of the word 'capable'."

"I [u]should[/u] have said to Eric - 'You know, Eric, your mother is so pretty that she would have had the ability to have been one of the most favored [i]courtesans[/i] in King Louis XIV's Court at Versailles.' Yes, indeed, that would have been a whole lot closer to the idea I was trying to convey to Eric."

Do you see the difference?  By using the word capable, you are placing at issue whether you actually mean 'the trait or propensity to do something' or simply the 'ability to do something.'

So you should have said "Israel has the ability to have caused the recent terroristic actions in New York and Washington, DC."

I would wholeheartedly agreed that Israel does indeed have the ability to pull it off.

But my way of saying it, would be a whole lot better and make a whole lot more sense -

[b]Although Israel is incapable of committing the reprehensible recent terroristic actions in New York and Washington DC, they certainly have the ability to have pulled it off.[/b]

But after all you've learned over the last several hours, do you STILL think Israel had a hand in the terror? Just answer me that!

Eric The(ClassDismissed!)Hun[>]:)]

In what sense "incapable?"

Morally??

Financially?

Logistically???

I dont think that is an issue. We arnt just protecting the weak, we are tring to protect a new nation of old people who were attacked by the holocast. If Isreal aver does get the real upper hand I think they will simply remain an ally. Weve never flip floped things like alliances over the fact of who was stronger, but who we thought was right.
[sniper]

Post from garandman -

I will be happy to answer this question if you agree to answer my question that follows.

I believe that the State of Israel is [b]morally[/b] [u]incapable[/u] of participating in, planning, assisting, or financing the execution of these dreadful terroristic attacks!

I base this on the following:

In the many wars that Israel have had with its neighbors, and even with enemies far removed, they have always used just the precise amount of violence that was necessary, with literally hundreds of opportunities to do otherwise.

When the Israelis were denied their rightful access to the Old City and the Wailing Wall from 1948 through 1967, their complaints to the UN, the USA, and others, were basically ignored.
With the unthinkable result that you could be a nineteen year old Israeli and yet be seeing the magnificent retaining wall of King Solomon's Temple, and the holiest of holy sites in your religion, for the first time in 1967.

The Israelis pushed the Jordanian troops and their ever-present snipers out of the City, that was supposed to be an International City, but never was, by sheer force of arms!

How did they repay the Jordanian/Arab/Moslem kindness in prohibiting them contact with their Holy Wall?  By simply allowing the Moslem officials to basically continue running the holy site on top of the Temple Mount, as they had before the Israeli conquest!

Not too shabby treatment for an avowed and vengeful enemy now is it?

Look at how Israel handles the Intifadah and the rash of suicide bombers - with rubber bullets and tear gas!  Hardly the actions of the sort which one could expect to be exhibited by Mr. Bin Laden and his ilk!

When the Israelis fire missiles at Palestinian locations, they take great pains to target the missiles with the possibility of the fewest civilian casualties. Does 'collateral damage' occur? Of course, but the Israelis are as good as the United States in respect to minimizing the carnage of war, insofar as civilians are concerned.  

Are Israel's enemies that controlled in their responses? Hell No! Coffee shops, marketplaces, and bus stops are their targets of choice!

They can't challenge the Israeli Defense Forces, but they can murder the defenseless ones, and they do so with impunity!!!!

How long would the United States tolerate such a one-sided engagement????

If that's going to be the response of the United States to the terror which has occurred, then George W Bush will be a one-term President just like his Dad!

So Israel has aligned itself with the United States in condemning terrorism, taking a stand against terrorism, and eschewing the very use of terrorism! And this all done in the very face of the same international criminal as was most likely the perpetrator of this most recent crime against us, Bin-Laden!

I saw a most compelling photo in today's Dallas Morning News, showing an Israel young lady with a rose attched to a sign, reading simply -
[size=4]America Bleeds - Israel Weeps[/size=4]
The rose petals were aligned like tear drops from the word 'Weeps.'  It's an Agence France-Presse copywrited photo. I'll try to find it.

That's the way I believe Israel views us, I hope that the way we view them.

Now let's hear your evidence, otherwise!

My question is, what makes you believe Israel is capable of such Bin-Laden type incidents?

Eric The(Awaiting)Hun[>]:)]

Eh, the Germans declared war on us, without cause.  Right after Pearl Harbor.  We fought the Germans first becuase Germany was much, much more dangerous than Japan.  During the war, we built I think over 100 capital ships and the Japs built less than a dozen - and we started all of those ships [bold]before[/bold] the war started.  We were just getting warmed up by the time Japan surrendered.  The war in the Pacific was a foregone conclusion, but the war in Europe was a closer call.

This is just great. We have Arab terrorist knock down the WTC and put a big hole in the Pentagon. They try to blow up the White House and who knows what the hell else and all we can do is bicker about Israel.

I've been in Israel twice. This makes me no expert but is relative to my observations. And they are:

1. Everybody is supportive of the military, they all have served or are related to someone serving.

2. They support Americans like we are family. Everywhere I went as soon as an Isreali figured out I was American then they couldn't be nice enough to me.

3. They are survivors. They will do whatever it takes to survive and not too much else, as not to look cruel and inhumane.

4. The young girls run around in shorts and bikinis. You ARE NOT in an Arab country when in Israel and it is obvious.

5. Like the US they have many factions to their government and many entities. If one group is spying on us that doesn't make all of them evil. And we spy on them too.

6. After I got used to all the soldiers hanging around with M-16s, I was pretty comfortable there.

7. Regardless of what I was there for, my favorite three parts of the trip were:
  a. the plane taking off from Bengureon.
  b. the plane landing on American soil.
  c. pulling up in my driveway at home.

LET ME EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO ALL OF YOU BICKERING FOOLS (I'm now on my soapbox),,,

People will learn to associate and support each other at whatever level they need to for defeating a common enemy. You will join hands with the asshole you hate to fight againts another greater evil. This happens at all levels.

My point? Take Israel out of the middle east picture and they will go back to killing each other off. Iraq and Iran can't stand each other anyway and that had nothing to do with one or the other supporting the state of Israel. The State of Israel is just an occasional excuse.

Now I'd like to continue this but I've got some beer mugs that need emptying. It's a dirty job but...

And there's a gun show tomorrow,,, YIPEEEEE!!!!

Look G-man you keep posting the same stuff based on a faulty premise, I have to ask are you that naive or simply a moron??

If Israel DIDN'T exsist why do you think it would change anyones perception of the US?? Was it all the Mid-East countries that rushed to our aid during the Revolutionary War, The War of Southern Treason, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or Desert Storm??

There are CULTURAL differences. Have you seen Islamic women? They are REQUIRED to be covered from head to foot for RELIGIOUS reasons. Do you think that we will ever be seen as acceptable since Western woman have a far less vigorous dress code?? They don't allow alcohol, again we do. Do you think they won't judge us by their standards?? Are you saying because there are Islamic terrorists that hold those same views we should require US women to wear clothes from head to toe? Should we outlaw liquor???

Is this a character flaw?? Just because someone uses force because they don't like what you are doing you fold like a $2.00 card table bought at a yard sale??

Islamic zealots use their religon as an instrument of hate. They find it acceptable to KILL people that don't agree with their religous views. They don't believe in individual rights. Are you saying that we should throw out the Constitution too??? They also say they have the right to KILL people to try to convert them to thier religon, and they are required to "spread the word". They also believe they will go to paradise if they die while fighting Christians or Jews.

Me personally I'm not going to bow to someone trying to force me to live my life the way they see fit, You may be different so do what you want.

FIRST OF ALL WE SHOULD PULL OUT OF THE U.N. AMERICA SHOULD START TAKING CARE OF AMERICA.WE SHOULD RE-EVALUATE OUR POSITION IN NATO.THE BALKANS IS A EUROPEAN PROBLEM AND WAS NOT VITAL TO OUR NATIONAL INTEREST.BASICALLY IT WAS A TRIBAL CONFLICT SERBS,CROATS,ALBANIANS,KOSOVARS,CHRISTIANS MUSLIMS.THE EUROPEANS SHOULD HAVE HANDLED IT.NO MORE MISSIONS OF MERCY TO PLACES LIKE SOMALIA WHERE THE PEOPLE WE ARE TRYING TO HELP ARE HOSTILE.WHAT DID WE GET IN RETURN FOR HELPING THE SAUDIS AND KUWAITIS.THIS GUY BIN LADEN KILLED AMERICAN TROOPS ON SAUDI SOIL.THEY FUNNEL MONEY TO THIS GUY! WE NEED TO GAIN CONTROL OVER OUR SOUTHERN BORDER FOR CRYIN'OUT LOUD. AND YES MAYBE WE SHOULD RE-EVALUATE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL. AMERICA IS GOING TO CEASE TO BE THE GREAT COUNTRY THAT IT IS UNLESS WE DO SOME SERIOUS OVERHAULING. JUST THINK 3 TO 6 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE INSIDE OUR OWN BORDERS WHAT OTHER COUNTRY WOULD TOLERATE THIS.WE ARE IN AN AWFUL MESS! I PRAY GEORGE BUSH WILL SET THINGS STRAIGHT.MAYBE THIS UNFORTUNATE EVENT WE BE THE CATALYST THAT WILL BRING THIS COUNTRY BACK.

Post from OLY-M4gery -

Awww, guy, why'd you have to go and completely ruin a perfectly good post, and excellent ideas, by including the foregoing crap in it?

You could have at least used a smilie with the characterization. Don't you know how real born and bred Southerners think about the, er, uh, unpleasantness of 1861 - 1865?

It's only treason in that it wasn't successful, much like our original revolution would have been viewed [b]if[/b] King George had won that war!

Would George Washington or any of the others have been considered by YOU to be traitors?
Then I doubt you routinely call Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson, traitors, either, right?

Eric The(JustSettingTheRecordStraight)Hun[>]:)]

I'll revert back to Civil War or War Between the States as soon as I stop seeing "War of Northern Aggresion".

Couldn't ya'll just be gracious victors and leave it to us to be always defensive? [:D]

BTW, it wasn't a 'civil war' unless you can show that the population was fighting among themselves, and not as members of any organized governments.  Accordingly, I think it should correctly be called the 'War Between The States' and nothing else.

It's you Yanks who keep trying to call it a civil war!

Eric The(CourseTheWarOfNorthernAgressionDoesHaveACertainRingOfTruthToIt)Hun[>]:)]

So, since this is really an attack on Israel, we should do nothing.  At least that's what it sounds like you are saying.

What is it that we are overlooking that MAY be the solution?  We should pull our support of Israel and beg forgiveness from murderers for our prior support of Israel. Or, are you suggesting that the Israeli's did this?  Reading further posts after originally posting this, I see that you are suggesting that Israel did it.  What absolute, weak minded bigotry!

Someone mentioned earlier to be careful or risk being labeled an anti-semite.  Well, here goes.
[b]This is the biggest load of anti-Semitic bullshit I have ever read.[/b]  It is obvious even though there is a very weak and transparent attempt to disguise it as intellectual reasoning.  It is not and it never will be.

It appears that what is being said is that the Israelis were [b]capable[/b] of doing this.  It does seem rather innocuous until you realize that what they're really saying is that those crafty Jews are just the sort of people who could stab an ally in the back, whereas the noble Bin-Laden is an enemy who would fight face to face!

How incredibly gullible is that?  Bin-Laden and Prime Minister Sharon equally bloodthirsty and cruel!  What a position to hold! The only thing that keeps it from being hilarious is that its so damn serious!

Talk about giving aid and comfort to the enemy!Our most loyal ally is no better than our worst enemy! And to hold this position at a time such as today, in light of the most recent events!

Eric The(AtTheEndOfMyTeather)Hun[>]:)]

Israel is not our friend and/or ally because the American people want this. ITS because the majority of the power players in the U.S. Government ARE Jews and keep with their own.
The Jews devide the workd by Jews and Gentiles, nothing else.

Now, there is a well thought out racist remark.  Right out of the Nazi handbook?  Why aren't the moderators raising hell about this kind of crap?

And the word is DIVIDE, not DEVIDE.

1) Israel represents the only democracy in the Middle East.

2) Israel is the only country that has true civil rights in a region where women are publicly flogged for reading and men are executed for shaving.

3) Israel has waged a brave war against Militant Islam and prevented it from spreading further than it already has.  The only reason MI has grown so strong is because of the same anti-jewish sentiments that infest this site.  It is people like you have have tied ours and their hands politically from ending the scurge of IM before it reached our shores.

4) They have, on many occasions, rescued Americans being held hostage by Islamic terrorists who were sponsored by Muslim states.

5) They have sided diplomaticaly with the United States on almost all foreign policy issues in the Middle East including all UN resolutions condemning terrorism.  Something few Muslim states have done.

6) They respect democracy, are an unwavering friend to the United states, and shed REAL tears over the recent tragedies.

7) They do not believe that the way to heaven is by killing 10,000 innocent people.

8) No Israeli has ever driven a car bomb into a restaurant full of mothers with their children.

9) No Israeli has ever blown up a 747 killing 200 people, mostly Americans.

10) No Israeli has ever launched a chemical weapon against their own people or anyone else.

11) No Israeli has ever danced in the street to celebrate the sight of Americans jumping to their death from a burning building.

12) No Israeli has ever driven a car bomb into a barracks housing American and French marines.

13) No Israeli has ever dragged a Navy Seal off of a hijacked plane and brutally beat him to death.

14) No Israeli has ever declared a Death to America Day.

15) No Israeli has ever hijacked a cruise ship a brutally beat an elderly wheelchair-bound American to death.

seems, there are people here "who know" what's truly going on, you know who you are...congrats.