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Posted: 9/10/2001 8:39:03 AM EDT
I am trying to determine the ballistics of a M193 bullet if it is shot into the air at a reasonable angle. If I shoot a bullet at a target that is about 25 degrees or more above the line of sight, how far will it travel, and at what speed will it hit the ground in case of a miss? I don't want to send a supersonic bullet through someones car 2 1/2 miles away, but I am sure that if a reasonable angle is given, the bullet will slow down enough that it will be relatively harmless at extended range. I have tried the ballistics calculator on the Maryland AR shooters webwite, but the range will only go out to 2000 yards. I live in a very rural area, so don't flame me for being an idiot. I just don't want to risk sending a bullet somewhere if it will hit at 200 fps or more. I know that if a bullet is shot straight up it will fall harmlessly. I just want to know when the angle starts to become too shallow.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 8:56:53 AM EDT
Where did you get the ridiculous idea that a bullet fired straight up will fall "harmlessly" to the ground? I was fixing a fuel pump in my driveway one afternoon when a .45 hardball came down and hit the roof of a 65 falcon. The dent measured approx 4 inches in diameter was approx 1.5 inches deep and punched a hole in the roof the size of a pencil eraser and almost went through . 65 Falcons are SOLID cars! If that happened to my Honda today, the bullet would be in the front seat. If you believe in your statement, then you may be an idiot!
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:07:26 AM EDT
Use a bald eagle for a backstop??????? Gotcha. [beer]
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:33:10 AM EDT
When a bullet is fired from a barrel, it is accelerated by the burning powder against the forces of inertia, friction, gravity, and drag to name the significant factors. When that bullet is fired into the air and it goes up until it stops, it is then accelerated downwards by the force of gravity against the drag of the atmosphere. When the bullet is traveling fast enough that the drag has increased to equal the pull of gravity, it has reached its "terminal velocity" and will not travel any faster. It is not as fast as being fired from a gun, but still fast enough to kill.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:40:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 9:41:24 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
I wonder what the terminal velocity, the speed at which gravity can no longer accelerate an object against air resistance and pressure drag, a tumbling bullet has? I'd say that a tumbling .223 would be one of the most harmless, but it still can do major damage and even kill. The only thing I feel safe at shooting into the air (into the tops of trees) with is my air rifle shooting .177 pellets. Their terminal velocity has to be very slow and minimally damaging. Even so, I use my best judgement, and the fact that the pellet is so slow is just piece of mind.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:46:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf: I am trying to determine the ballistics of a M193 bullet if it is shot into the air at a reasonable angle. If I shoot a bullet at a target that is about 25 degrees or more above the line of sight, how far will it travel, and at what speed will it hit the ground in case of a miss? I don't want to send a supersonic bullet through someones car 2 1/2 miles away, but I am sure that if a reasonable angle is given, the bullet will slow down enough that it will be relatively harmless at extended range. I have tried the ballistics calculator on the Maryland AR shooters webwite, but the range will only go out to 2000 yards. I live in a very rural area, so don't flame me for being an idiot. I just don't want to risk sending a bullet somewhere if it will hit at 200 fps or more. I know that if a bullet is shot straight up it will fall harmlessly. I just want to know when the angle starts to become too shallow.
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Don't do this, even if you do live in a 'rual' area.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:55:55 AM EDT
I have an idea! Lets ask the 13 year old here in Florida about it. While calmly reading a comic book on his living room floor, he was rudely interrupted by a .357 softpoint punching through the roof of his mobile home.......And his thigh!
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 10:15:52 AM EDT
According to this website...http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/99/fallpenny If you postulate that the actual bullet weighs approximately what a penny weighs, then you can see that this is not something you want to do. A terminal velocity of 57 MPH is plenty of pain for me.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 10:35:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a3kid: Use a bald eagle for a backstop??????? Gotcha. [beer]
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Har Har!
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 10:44:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tc6969: Where did you get the ridiculous idea that a bullet fired straight up will fall "harmlessly" to the ground? I was fixing a fuel pump in my driveway one afternoon when a .45 hardball came down and hit the roof of a 65 falcon. The dent measured approx 4 inches in diameter was approx 1.5 inches deep and punched a hole in the roof the size of a pencil eraser and almost went through . 65 Falcons are SOLID cars! If that happened to my Honda today, the bullet would be in the front seat. If you believe in your statement, then you may be an idiot!
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This bullet may not have been simply falling. It could have been fired from a elevated location. Besides a .45 bullet weighs about 4 times a M193 bullet. I am not talking about firing lead pipes. A falling object won't achieve more than about 150 fps in free fall from any altitude. This would almost certainly not be enough for a .223 bullet to punch a hole through steel. It would leave a small dent in sheet metal to be sure.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 10:48:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Axel: When a bullet is fired from a barrel, it is accelerated by the burning powder against the forces of inertia, friction, gravity, and drag to name the significant factors. When that bullet is fired into the air and it goes up until it stops, it is then accelerated downwards by the force of gravity against the drag of the atmosphere. When the bullet is traveling fast enough that the drag has increased to equal the pull of gravity, it has reached its "terminal velocity" and will not travel any faster. It is not as fast as being fired from a gun, but still fast enough to kill.
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A BB or pellet that is shot at 250 FPS will leave a large welt. I don't think a .223 bullet falling at 150 fps would kill. The other thing is, Bullets don't fall point first, they fall in the same attitude that they were fired.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 10:49:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tc6969: I have an idea! Lets ask the 13 year old here in Florida about it. While calmly reading a comic book on his living room floor, he was rudely interrupted by a .357 softpoint punching through the roof of his mobile home.......And his thigh!
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Yeah, that was my question. Is your name Rosie O'Donnell?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:09:08 AM EDT
If you get a basic physics book and look at projectile motion, you will see that that bullet fired at a 25 or more degree of angle will travel very very far and will likely hit with enough force to kill. My fiancee grandfather was in an artilleryman in world war II. He told me of a story where his crew were watching a dogfight overhead. They stopped wathcing when all the bullets there were fired 5 miles high started reaching the ground!! They lost one guy. I also know of a story where an BF-110 pilot was shodowing a flight of B-17 2 miles off their right wing. A stray .50 hit the pilot and blew his head off. Yeah a .223 is light, but it has a very small area, I would bet it would kill. I think it would be EXTREMELY STUPID to take that chance.. Calculate it on paper, learn somthing, and apply the knowledge. If you pull that trigger all your doing is proving to the media that at least one gun guy is pretty stupid.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:33:03 AM EDT
Hey tard! I mean torf. Check out matt's post and pay particular attention to the two words that start with EXTREMELY and end with STUPID.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 12:37:33 PM EDT
I fired at 25 deg it will follow the standard ballistic trajectory and fall with more than enough impact to pentrate a human body. There is a much neglected art of indirect fire with machine guns (just like artillery) and AGLs, and you often fire them at high angle (greater than 45 degs) in order to hit targets in defilade. Even when fired alost strait up the round will impact point forward, that is one of the reasons if you shoot strait up it doesn't come strait down because the bullet will pitch to one side or the other as it loses forward momentum.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:00:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tc6969: Hey tard! I mean torf. Check out matt's post and pay particular attention to the two words that start with EXTREMELY and end with STUPID.
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Hey bud, I am just asking a question and hoping for some true numbers, not some carping on by somebody. Nobody yet has really answered the question. The question was. [b]What angle would the bullet have to leave the barrel in order for the impact to be around 150-200 fps?[/b] Not, hey man, how do I kill someone from 6 miles away? For the love of God! I have not ever done this! I was having a discussion with a friend about a slingshot, and it turned into questions about falling pieces of metal. Maybe I should have been clearer. (why, I don't know) Matt-S, I am not talking about a 600 gr. BMG round. Dogfights take place at all angles, including downward. The particular bullet in question would strike sideways, and so I doubt that penetration would be an issue. [b]My theory is that there is a particular angle where a 55 gr. bullet can be fired, but fall to the ground with begnin consequecnces. I was wondering what that angle would be? 25,35,45?[/b] Don't give me pat answers about some 13 year old, or heresay from somebody's dad who got hit from God knows where. [b]I am aware of this already, and have taken rifle safety courses.[/b] I just want to know the facts. I am [b]not[/b] planning on doing this!
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:04:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: Even when fired alost strait up the round will impact point forward, that is one of the reasons if you shoot strait up it doesn't come strait down because the bullet will pitch to one side or the other as it loses forward momentum.
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I don't believe that a bullet will pitch during flight when it reaches apogee. It cannot because of the gyroscopic forces of a bullet spinning 3000 rpms. The direction of the nose will continue pointing in the initial direction all along the flight path. This should create plenty of drag on a small bullet.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:35:32 PM EDT
I understand that a 55gr bullet is the maximum safe weight bullet that can be launched into the air without fear of injuring someone.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:45:33 PM EDT
According to Sierra ballistics, you're looking at about 5000 or so yards, depending on MV, temperature, etc. Velocity at impact would be whatever the terminal velocity of that projectile would be dropped from apogee of flight. It may or may not pitch at apogee, but I'm pretty sure it'll yaw like a M****f*****r. You may hit one of those cars yet! shooter.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 2:55:19 PM EDT
Dorf, Listen Buddy! Give up and cut your losses! You just keep replacing the IDIOT sign around your neck with a bigger and bigger one! Does this sound familiar? [B]I know that if a bullet is shot straight up it will fall harmlessly[/B]HOW DO YOU KNOW? Whenever I use the words I KNOW, that means that I have absolute proof that what I am saying is a FACT! I try to preface(look it up)my remarks with phrases like I heard, I read,I saw on restroom wall ETC. If I ever say "I know" that means I am ABSOLUTELY sure that what I am saying is a FACT! I KNOW! the .45 dented the roof of the Falcon I WAS STANDING 5 FEET AWAY! I KNOW! the .357 went through the trailer roof and the kids thigh because The local news station went out and did a remote broadcast. They showed the hole in the roof, they showed the hole in the kid,they showed the bullet and they interviewed the parents AND 1 neighbor who were sitting next to the kid and saw the whole thing! I KNOW! I also know this,anyone who discharges any firearm into the air (regardless of bullet weight or angle)with out knowing that they are MILES from the next person needs some serious therapy! And by the way, begnin is not a real word! Are you trying to say benign?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 3:25:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 3:30:34 PM EDT
Well, I am an artillery Officer in the Marines, spent 18 months as a fire direction officer, was a instructor at the field artillery school, but hey what would I know. The rate of spin is proportionate to its velocity; do you think that it will maintain the same rate of spin the entire flight?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 3:38:00 PM EDT
Just figure at Least 2 miles.At 60-90 degrees the M-193 is good for a 3 mile flight.Even at this range if it hit a soft target,well,you know.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 5:00:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: This has all been done before, many, many years ago. Get a copy of "Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian Hatcher. Anybody with any pretensions about being knowledgeable about firearms ought to have a copy, and have read it. He performed this exact experiment i.e. firing a bullet vertically into the air, among many others. You'll be surprised at some of the results.
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Got it coming! Just hung up the phone with B&N $36 and change.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 5:05:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tc6969:
Originally Posted By raf: This has all been done before, many, many years ago. Get a copy of "Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian Hatcher. Anybody with any pretensions about being knowledgeable about firearms ought to have a copy, and have read it. He performed this exact experiment i.e. firing a bullet vertically into the air, among many others. You'll be surprised at some of the results.
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Got it coming! Just hung up the phone with B&N $36 and change.
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When you finish let us know how the crow tastes!![}:D]
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 5:58:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aggie1:
Originally Posted By tc6969:
Originally Posted By raf: This has all been done before, many, many years ago. Get a copy of "Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian Hatcher. Anybody with any pretensions about being knowledgeable about firearms ought to have a copy, and have read it. He performed this exact experiment i.e. firing a bullet vertically into the air, among many others. You'll be surprised at some of the results.
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Got it coming! Just hung up the phone with B&N $36 and change.
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When you finish let us know how the crow tastes!![}:D]
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Have you read it? Properly prepared crow aint bad. You should know by now that I can take it as well as dish it out. The printed word is flexible, quite unlike a 65 Falcon roof.
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