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Posted: 9/9/2001 12:24:07 PM EDT
By Joe Nelson, The Sun Telegram The San Bernardino Police Department is arming a squad of officers with semi-automatic assault rifles to handle potentially volatile scenarios involving hostages or barricaded suspects. Six officers are being recruited round out the 15-officer rifle squad, which currently has nine members. The squad will use high-powered Colt AR-15 rifles to hold suspects at bay from a distance until a SWAT team arrives, police Cat. Wes Farmer said. The squad will then assist the SWAT team in surrounding crime scenes. "If you have a barracaded suspect who is threatening people, the rifles allow the officers to back away from the house and still provide cover and containment," Farmer said. "They are more accurate at long ranges than a handgun." Each officer will undergo 40 hours of training. The rifles will be equipped with 30-round magazines, and the team members will be on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, in rotating shifts. The Police Department should have the last six officers selected and trained for the rifle squad in the next 60 days, Farmer said. Some officers have military backgrounds and honed skills in the use of such firearms, bringing that experience to the squad. The rifles' magazines will be filled with soft-nose .223-caliber bullets that are better than conventional ammunition because they fragment upon hitting their target; stoppign at the target as opposed to piercing it. The guns are accurate up to 400 yards, said police Sgt. Richard Taack, a coordinating of the squad who oversees training. "In a shootout situation, we want to make sure that bullets aren't flying through the neighborhood," Taack said. The rifle squad will be evaluated after its first year to determine its need within the department adn if it should be expanded. Use of such squads as reinforcement is not uncommon. Other police departments, including the Montclair force, have rifle squads, Taack said. ================================================ Stop the Insanity!! ARSwami, ex-lurker
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 12:26:23 PM EDT
Cool. Sounds like residents in that area will be able to get some shiney new Ar's, only dropped once.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 12:40:42 PM EDT
Montclair has a rifle squad? I live right next door. $hit never happens there. Only thing in the city is the mall and the ninjas have that covered.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 12:43:09 PM EDT
Could save a lot of money, by forming a squad, consisting of only one person, with an RPG-7.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 12:43:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 12:42:53 PM EDT by platform389]
Wonder how long before they get M203 launchers. Most likely after the next "suspect" cuts the "squad" to pieces.[:(!]
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 12:53:36 PM EDT
"Rifle Squad" sounds a lot like "Fire Team" to me. Just another way to militarize the police.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 1:08:25 PM EDT
Fire team = 4 men. Rifle squad = 13 men. Big difference.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 1:26:18 PM EDT
Six officers are being recruited round out the 15-officer rifle squad, which currently has nine members.
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So do I read this right? We need 15 members on our rifle squad. We only have nine that actually qualify and of those nine, six will be given AR15's for 24hr carry (so they can respond any time as the article indicates). Are the pickings that slim...and are those 6 really qualified? Oh, and since when is a .223 a High Powered RIfle. Oh, wait, i forgot .... it is when they are black and have 30 round magazines. Zaz "I have given up trying to understand people in favor of mocking them."
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 2:11:34 PM EDT
"The guns are accurate up to 400 yards, said police Sgt. Richard Taack, a coordinating of the squad who oversees training." Pretty sad if their AR's are only accurate to 400 yards. Or maybe it pathetic training. (I opt for the latter in light of the fiascos in Kali).
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 3:59:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 4:01:16 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Training costs money. Where do PD's get their money? And because of that who is really to blame when the training is inadequit? Most police officers and sheriffs deputies around here already carry AR-15's and have for years. Its common sense, not "militarization".
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:15:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Training costs money. Where do PD's get their money?
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Where else? ASSET FORFEITURES from the war on some drugs and the new war on guns.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:20:21 PM EDT
I am glad that regular patrol officers are being issued rifles. Those of you who gripe about the necessity of SWAT(Me Included) should applaud this. This could reduce the number of barricade situations because first responders would have the equipment to deal effectively with the threat without having to bring in SWAT. I don't see this as further militarization of police departments. It is a common sense response to the real world we live in today.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:35:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Training costs money. Where do PD's get their money?
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Red light cameras.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:42:49 PM EDT
Actually, they'll probably just go into the CA gun registry, pick 13 people who currently own ARs, and then issue a warrant for a meth lab, raid all the homes and steal the rifles, along with anything else of value. Squad, fire team, whatever--I was only trying to point out how militaristic cops have become.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:46:18 PM EDT
I don't think this is just individual officers, but "pre," priming shot? SWAT type of thing.Kinda to soften up the place for the JBT's to go in for the final chili cookoff. Still, a squad of officers toting AR-15's, and not individually, sure sounds like a military type op to me. Scary ARSwami
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:52:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARSwami: I don't think this is just individual officers, but "pre," priming shot? SWAT type of thing.Kinda to soften up the place for the JBT's to go in for the final chili cookoff. Still, a squad of officers toting AR-15's, and not individually, sure sounds like a military type op to me. Scary ARSwami
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You guys are beginning to sound like the enemy. OOOOH, the big bad police officer has an evil black scary rifle. Pshaw
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:54:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 5:11:07 PM EDT by timh70]
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Training costs money. Where do PD's get their money? And because of that who is really to blame when the training is inadequit? Most police officers and sheriffs deputies around here already carry AR-15's and have for years. Its common sense, not "militarization".
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Hell, I've been in the service 10 years and only been to the range 6 times and can still hit a target smaller than a man at 500 yards 8 out of 10 times. So what is THEIR reason to not be able to hit a target at 500 yards??? Crappy training. If it is SO IMPORTANT, maybe they should take some money out of the SWAT funds, or use SWAT for this purpose. But it is STILL all out of control. When the cops are BETTER ARMED than the civilian population, they will let it go to their heads. And from what we have seen in the last few years, it is STUPID. The M-16 is designed to be accurate to 550 METERS point target, 800 meters area target.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:00:01 PM EDT
Aggie writes<<>> Enemy of whom? Are you saying there are no better ways to confront a barricaded suspect/perp without sending in a RIFLE squad for suppressive fire? We all saw, or at least what looks like suppressive fire at a the Simi Valley shootout last week. I bet that guy crouching in his bathroom with his wife and newborn was glad to of have had suppressive fire to protect him and his family. Flamethrower squad anyone? "Can't we all just get along?"
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:10:32 PM EDT
ARSwami, are you arguing about tactics or equipment, or are you just being argumentative? Pick one and stick to it please. I have no problem with individual patrol officers having rifles. That is what I am talking about. After the Texas Seven escaped our local PD began issuing rifles(well not really Mini-14's) to patrol officers as well as shotguns. Remember a gun is a tool and is no better or worse than the person operating it. The California incident is a perfect example of where this may have helped. The first officers were returning fire with pistols. If they had rifles on scene at the beginning there may have not been a standoff. I am no supporter of SWAT. Their tactics go too far in a lot of situations. However, I have no problems with the officers having rifles.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:14:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 5:14:12 PM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
FCK the rifle squad. Next time the suspect is barricaded, send in the Howitzers! Blow him a new ahole.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:17:06 PM EDT
Aggie1:ARSwami, are you arguing about tactics or equipment>>> Aren't the two related?? <> This is not an INDIVIDUAL issuing. This is a team, a rifle squad. This is not right. Why have SWAT if you have rifle squads? hell, get them M60's warmed up too. Sorry, if I sound argumenative, but I have no job, and my wife is shopping for my pickled eggs[}:(] ARSwami
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:24:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By platform389: Wonder how long before they get M203 launchers. Most likely after the next "suspect" cuts the "squad" to pieces.[:(!]
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LOL! What's that military f/a 40mm grenade lobber called?
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:33:45 PM EDT
ARSwami, I think you need to remove the tinfoil hat. The police have GUNS! Is this some sort of shocker to you? Why does it not make sense to you that they actually be able to SHOOT BACK? Ever here of the concept of police DEFENDING themselves or others (like you)? There have been countless situations where police with the big black scary rifles have saved a life- or didn't because the first responders didn't have them. But that's never headline news. But I would not expect you to understand. You give the impression of just another dolt that hates the media when they go after the Second Amendment, but take their word as gold when the police are reported to have screwed up.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:35:23 PM EDT
Also if you click on the little quotation marks: " ", you can reply to someone's quote without retyping it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:38:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARSwami: Aggie1:ARSwami, are you arguing about tactics or equipment>>> Aren't the two related?? ARSwami
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That is very poor logic. Weapons cause bad tactics? Sounds like you get your arguments from HCI.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:41:15 PM EDT
"But I would not expect you to understand. You give the impression of just another dolt that hates the media when they go after the Second Amendment, but take their word as gold when the police are reported to have screwed up." We're talking lives here and possible collateral damage, not getting onion rings instead of fries on your order. ARSwami
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 6:08:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aggie1: That is very poor logic. Weapons cause bad tactics? Sounds like you get your arguments from HCI.
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Actually, yes the type of weapons that are issued CAN have an impact on the tactics used. If all the average cop has is a handgun, then he is less likley to be part of a poorly planned "standoff action" or 'no knock' warrant than if he has a rifle that he is hardly trained with. If you don't have the funding to train consistantly, don't use the weapon. Wait for the people who are TRAINED to handle the situation.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 6:08:23 PM EDT
I have never responded to one of these "us versus THEM" threads before since there is so much non-thinking, illogical, paranoid ranting. There's a lot I want to say on this subject since I worked many years in the cop shop business and am now just one of millions of gun collectors threatened by our government. I know a lot about both side of this us-THEM issue. To keep it short and to the point - the LA bank robbery with AK47's blazing away at everyone in sight. Crazies who would not be taken alive and dying people lying around everywhere. How nice it would have been if every patrol sergeants' car had an AR15 or similar stowed in the trunk. That, I believe, is the whole point of issuing rifles to SOME selected patrol officers, in addition to having SWAT teams. SWAT teams take around an hour to arrive and get suited up for work. What are the regular patrol officers supposed to do until they can take over the scene? They can only do so much with handguns and riot guns when the crazies are shooting, shooting, shooting RIGHT THE FUCK NOW.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 6:59:05 PM EDT
The F/A 40mm Launcher is the MK-19. BTW an awesome thing to fire.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 7:00:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 7:02:10 PM EDT
Actually, without proper training, it wouldn't have mattered. When the cops realized what was goin on, they should have backed off. It's amazing that more people were not shot. I will admit that the cops that stood on the line were brave, but sometimes brave can get you dead. If 2 or 3 cops had good training, they could have knocked those guys out alot sooner. And I do understand that the average cop doesn't get alot of trigger time, but that is not our problem. maybe if they didn't run stupid programs(like drag racing) they might have the money to train.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 7:43:26 PM EDT
The liability attatched to " collateral Dammage" scares the crap out of most cops so they generally don't go shooting at what they can't identify.
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The operative word here being MOST. Most doesnt not apparently include the patrol deputies of the LA County Sheriffs department. They were blazing away at Becks house and the neighbors houses on either side, even as the homeowners were talking to 911 trying to get them to stop. Clearly they were firing without actually seeing anything. Werent too afraid of liability there. Or in Lubbock Texas either, or if the FBI and the 3 officers who turned States evidence are to be beleaved, in Miami. Rural cops may worry cause they dont have a huge city government and the union dues of 5000+ brother officers to pay off the suits, but it seems that in the more urban areas something else is going on.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 8:38:31 PM EDT
Hell, I've been in the service 10 years and only been to the range 6 times and can still hit a target smaller than a man at 500 yards 8 out of 10 times. So what is THEIR reason to not be able to hit a target at 500 yards??? Crappy training. If it is SO IMPORTANT, maybe they should take some money out of the SWAT funds, or use SWAT for this purpose. But it is STILL all out of control. When the cops are BETTER ARMED than the civilian population, they will let it go to their heads. And from what we have seen in the last few years, it is STUPID. The M-16 is designed to be accurate to 550 METERS point target, 800 meters area target.
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The military standard for acceptable accuracy assumes about a 30% chance of achieving a hit, anywhere on the target. It does not apply to civilian law enforcement, where the standard should be to never shoot unless you are sure of getting a hit. The standard I train is that an officer using an open sights usually should not shoot beyond 100 yards. Persons past 100 yards, unless they are armed with a scoped rifle, generally do not pose a threat that can be justifiably stopped with deadly force, although there are exceptions. Law enforcement should not shoot at "area" targets. Do not confuse military standards intended for the battlefield to law enforcement standards designed for very limited, surgical application of force.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 9:08:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By timh70:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Training costs money. Where do PD's get their money? And because of that who is really to blame when the training is inadequit? Most police officers and sheriffs deputies around here already carry AR-15's and have for years. Its common sense, not "militarization".
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Hell, I've been in the service 10 years and only been to the range 6 times and can still hit a target smaller than a man at 500 yards 8 out of 10 times. So what is THEIR reason to not be able to hit a target at 500 yards??? Crappy training. If it is SO IMPORTANT, maybe they should take some money out of the SWAT funds, or use SWAT for this purpose. But it is STILL all out of control. When the cops are BETTER ARMED than the civilian population, they will let it go to their heads. And from what we have seen in the last few years, it is STUPID. The M-16 is designed to be accurate to 550 METERS point target, 800 meters area target.
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Forget max point shooting ranges . Forget AREA shooting totally. Officers shoot at PEOPLE, not area targets.Most patrol rifle shootings take place at around 75-100 meters. Most tactical rifle (bolt action, scoped) shots are 150 meters and under. Yes, the patrol rifle may be capable of shooting at the distance you mention. Most officers will never have to shoot that distance. Most ranges cannot accomodate training/ firing at that distance anyway. And on top of that, officers are not "in combat", where the battlefield extends over many miles in any direction, with minimal non-combatants to worry about hitting. Most officers who are 4-500 meters away from the target cannot honestly say they are in immediate danger from the shooter, in my opinion. There would be better ways to handle a shooter at that distance than an officer attempting a shot with iron sights
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 9:25:30 PM EDT
When the cops are BETTER ARMED than the civilian population, they will let it go to their heads. And from what we have seen in the last few years, it is STUPID.
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When did AR-15's become illegal in North Carolina? No cop in AZ outguns me, they are just better organized.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 9:50:26 PM EDT
We're talking lives here and possible collateral damage, not getting onion rings instead of fries on your order. ARSwami
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Oh yes ARSwami! The cops will immediately go out and start killing people all over the place. Whew! Thank goodness I don't live where cops have rifles. How old are you, 13? I see you are on your 10th post at this point, and I do believe you are either a child or a troll.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 10:03:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PaulieWalnuts:
We're talking lives here and possible collateral damage, not getting onion rings instead of fries on your order. ARSwami
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Oh yes ARSwami! The cops will immediately go out and start killing people all over the place. Whew! Thank goodness I don't live where cops have rifles. How old are you, 13? I see you are on your 10th post at this point, and I do believe you are either a child or a troll.
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No, he writes too good for a child, but it might be Hangfire under a psudonym
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 10:36:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: No, he writes too good for a child, but it might be Hangfire under a psudonym
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LMAO!
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 12:27:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ADTECHARMS: The F/A 40mm Launcher is the MK-19. BTW an awesome thing to fire.
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Thanks for the 411. The supervisor needs one of those on top of his patrol Hummer.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 12:40:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: When did AR-15's become illegal in North Carolina? No cop in AZ outguns me, they are just better organized.
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Sorry to tell you this, but cops carry M-16's...you know, the select fire, 3 round burst. But I guess they need it for all the spray and pray that has been going on....
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 12:54:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By timh70:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: When did AR-15's become illegal in North Carolina? No cop in AZ outguns me, they are just better organized.
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Sorry to tell you this, but cops carry M-16's...you know, the select fire, 3 round burst. But I guess they need it for all the spray and pray that has been going on....
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You think that that will some how help them?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:03:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By timh70:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: When did AR-15's become illegal in North Carolina? No cop in AZ outguns me, they are just better organized.
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Sorry to tell you this, but cops carry M-16's...you know, the select fire, 3 round burst. But I guess they need it for all the spray and pray that has been going on....
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God help us. For the children.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:16:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:17:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ulysse_Nardin_1846: God help us. For the children.
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My feelings exactly. I KNOW I'm more proficient with an M-16/Ar-15 than the average cop. How much trining do they go through with it? Verry little, from what they have shown. Having all the knowledge about the M-16 drilled into my head in bootcamp makes me fairly knowledagable about this particular type of weapon(even though I'm not up to speed about the A1, or the civilian counterparts, such as slabside ect). I trust MYSELF with an M-16 than I do the average cop, most of whom rarley have time to qual with their TO weapon, and most of whom feel that gun owners are second class citizens.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 4:37:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 4:37:55 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By timh70:
Originally Posted By Ulysse_Nardin_1846: God help us. For the children.
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My feelings exactly. I KNOW I'm more proficient with an M-16/Ar-15 than the average cop. How much trining do they go through with it? Verry little, from what they have shown. Having all the knowledge about the M-16 drilled into my head in bootcamp makes me fairly knowledagable about this particular type of weapon(even though I'm not up to speed about the A1, or the civilian counterparts, such as slabside ect). I trust MYSELF with an M-16 than I do the average cop, most of whom rarley have time to qual with their TO weapon, and most of whom feel that gun owners are second class citizens. Actually, without proper training, it wouldn't have mattered. When the cops realized what was goin on, they should have backed off. It's amazing that more people were not shot. I will admit that the cops that stood on the line were brave, but sometimes brave can get you dead. If 2 or 3 cops had good training, they could have knocked those guys out alot sooner. And I do understand that the average cop doesn't get alot of trigger time, but that is not our problem. maybe if they didn't run stupid programs(like drag racing) they might have the money to train.
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What mall do you work at?? [:)] I should point out that many LEO's esp. the 40+ crowd have military experience including some wartime experience, you know Vietnam, Desert Storm. I am also gonna point out that many cops support the 2nd Amendment, and you are assuming things. Yes some officers have mil-spec M-16's, most have AR-15 or M-16's converted to AR specs. You know 1 trigger pull 1 shot. As far as the N. Hollywood shoot out, yes the cops have fast cars and could have gotten very far away in even a few minutes. But I think the "SHTF", they are supposed to protect the public from BG's. Yes they were outgunned, but they needed to keep the BG's in sight, at a minimum until they could get effective weapons on scene. Not to mention they were probably trying to keep the gunmen away from members of the public. The police don't have the option of assessing BG's and saying "he's too tough, there's nothing we can do". Nor do most people want that to become a response.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 4:45:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Actually, they'll probably just go into the CA gun registry, pick 13 people who currently own ARs, and then issue a warrant for a meth lab, raid all the homes and steal the rifles, along with anything else of value. Squad, fire team, whatever--I was only trying to point out how militaristic cops have become.
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You left out the "burn the house to the ground" part....what's the matter? Are ya [b]slipping[/b]?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 6:21:34 AM EDT
Mr. Walnuts, I am neither a troll nor a child. I don't play one on the TV either.Are you saying my points aren't valid? And, just because I only have 10 posts my arguments can't be discussed without someone like you calling me a dolt? I hope that this discussion can continue in a mature fashion.I never intended it to be a cop-bashing thread. Now, I believe this is and can be a serious issue in regards to them having a rifle squad in an urban enviroment; that is why I posted this. No, I ain't Hangfire. Im unemployed and bored.[BD] ARSwami
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:09:35 AM EDT
Yes and yes again.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:19:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ulysse_Nardin_1846:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Training costs money. Where do PD's get their money?
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Red light cameras.
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YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 9:34:49 AM EDT
The 'rifle squad' could probably also use one of these plus a spotter. You know, for when the suspect is really dug in? [img]http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Feb1998/980121-A-6522J-516.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 10:38:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 10:38:31 AM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
Originally Posted By trickshot: Actually, they'll probably just go into the CA gun registry, pick 13 people who currently own ARs, and then issue a warrant for a meth lab, raid all the homes and steal the rifles, along with anything else of value. Squad, fire team, whatever--I was only trying to point out how militaristic cops have become.
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That would be too funny if it wasn't possible. But you and me know it can become reality.
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