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Posted: 9/7/2001 5:57:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:04:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:12:44 PM EST
Another "Brown Shirt" "Neighbor" fanning the flames. Thank God, I don't have any neighbors. At least the "Neighbor" didn't say "I'm sure that I have seen him and others go in and out of the house with Semi-Automatic Machine Guns"
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:26:06 PM EST
If this guy is really manufacturing Methamphetamines then who gives a fu## if he has weapons, legal or not. This guy is destroying society as we know it. let the fu(ker ROT IN HELL! I've seen to many of my close personal friends go down the shitter 'cause of that stuff. Alex
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:38:26 PM EST
What's up with slamming the neighbor? It didn't say she turned him in, it just said she is getting the hell out of Dodge until this is over. Should she stay and perhaps get hit by a stray round? If this guy is running a meth lab, are you still going to support him? It seems that most here are against drugs, so there should be very little support for this guy if he really is running a meth lab.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:49:32 PM EST
Meth is nasty shit... true enough. He is still an American citizen so he has a couple hours before they burn him out.........
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:52:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By BigMac: Meth is nasty shit... true enough. He is still an American citizen so he has a couple hours before they burn him out.........
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If it really is a meth lab and they burn him out, there could be a very nasty surprise. In fact, if it really is a meth lab, they may not burn him down out of fear of the big kaboom.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:55:21 PM EST
Funny how everybody they want has a Meth lab or is dealing drugs. I don't know about this guy one way or the other, but I don't believe a damn word those f$%#ers say. It wouldn't surprise me if he was just a regular guy like us that somehow got on their radar. Allegations of drugs opens up lots of avenues for the Feds. Remember the famous Meth lab at Waco?
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:00:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:08:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By alexanderredhook: If this guy is really manufacturing Methamphetamines then who gives a fu## if he has weapons, legal or not. This guy is destroying society as we know it. let the fu(ker ROT IN HELL! I've seen to many of my close personal friends go down the shitter 'cause of that stuff. Alex
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But until we know he is guilty of a crime doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt... Nathan
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:12:33 PM EST
The Davidians had a meth lab too [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:18:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By alexanderredhook: If this guy is really manufacturing Methamphetamines then who gives a fu## if he has weapons, legal or not. This guy is destroying society as we know it. let the fu(ker ROT IN HELL! I've seen to many of my close personal friends go down the shitter 'cause of that stuff. Alex
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[b][blue]You said it brudda!!F*ck him, if thats the case.[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:28:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 7:36:01 PM EST by 101_proof]
Yup, Meth is nasty shit and I unlike almost everyone here speak from experience because I have done it before, chances are anyone that has probably won't admit it. I have one question???????? When did ATF start enforcing DRUG laws????? The ATF has fuckin zero authority over a "meth lab" This is bullshit and stinks to high heaven, I reckon thats why they are prepared to only wait it out till the weekend. The commy fucks don't wanna waste too much time. Destroying lives or not, ATF does not have have the authority to serve a warrant on drug charges, it is not in their power. If the guy is a pusher or not isnt the question here. Remember in Waco the ATF pulled the "meth lab" "child molester" cards, everyone seems to forget that ATF does not have jurisdiction over that.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:34:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:35:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:39:31 PM EST
The neighbor is pretty damn smart. If my neighbors house was surrounded by the Bureau of Alchohol Tobacco and Flamethrowers, I'd pack my shit and get the fuck outta dodge too!! Hell my house has fire insurance, but I dont see any of it if I burn up in it!! [beer]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:47:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:49:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 7:50:07 PM EST by ArmdLbrl]
Anyone try letting Fox News Network know about this? They already embarrased one ATF official this month, maybe they would like to do it again. They would be interested in why there was BATF and Customs were there but no DEA if there was a meth lab.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:51:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:52:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 7:54:11 PM EST by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By Sweep:
Originally Posted By alexanderredhook: If this guy is really manufacturing Methamphetamines then who gives a fu## if he has weapons, legal or not. This guy is destroying society as we know it. let the fu(ker ROT IN HELL! I've seen to many of my close personal friends go down the shitter 'cause of that stuff. Alex
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So how does someone manufacturing Meth destroying society? People like him didn't send your friends down the shitter, they made a choice. If you're going to blame the drug dealer for ruining peoples lives, then ya gotta blame the gun for the drive by shooting. Me personally, you can make all the Meth you want, but I'm not going to touch the stuff.
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So you would welcome someone opening a branch of Love Canal next door to your home? Or blowing his place up and taking yours with it? This isnt like growing pot in a backyard greenhouse.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:53:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:06:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sweep:
Originally Posted By LARRYG: What's up with slamming the neighbor? It didn't say she turned him in, it just said she is getting the hell out of Dodge until this is over. Should she stay and perhaps get hit by a stray round? If this guy is running a meth lab, are you still going to support him? It seems that most here are against drugs, so there should be very little support for this guy if he really is running a meth lab.
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Larry, see above post. The War on Drugs is actually a war on the American people. Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it and it appears we have learned nothing from the days of prohibition.
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Exactly, the so called "war on drugs" is the perfect excuse to make criminals out of almost everyone. Shop at a plant store???= drug dealer, carry cash???= drug dealer, carry cash denominations in (1,5,10,20,50,100)???=drug dealer. Those examples were just the tip of the iceburg, it sounds messed up but people have gone to prison for owning blacklights and carrying too much cash in a airport..etc. The best part is they have the moral authority. As long as people think drug dealers are the problem it will never go away..... Remember there is no supply without a demand and for every pusher you take off of the street corner there are 8 guys shooting each other to take that very same pushers spot. Look for a book by James Brovard called The Destruction of Civil Liberties. It's a real eye opener and a must read for any of us.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:07:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 8:07:24 PM EST by Sweep]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:09:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:16:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By alexanderredhook: If this guy is really manufacturing Methamphetamines then who gives a fu## if he has weapons, legal or not. This guy is destroying society as we know it. let the fu(ker ROT IN HELL! I've seen to many of my close personal friends go down the shitter 'cause of that stuff. Alex
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i agree that Methamphetamines are a poison and can destroy someones life forever, but unless they force it into somepersons body, then it should not be a crime. (they did not violate a persons right to life and property on their own initiative) people are responsible for their own health. if they choose to poison their bodies, then they have nobody to blame but themselves. i fully support the operation of those who wish to educate society on the dangers of hard drug use. i will not support the operation of draconic substance laws designed to hamper the fourth amendment (illegal searches and seizures) or wasted tax payer money on a lost "war". non-narcotic using lib
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:17:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By BigMac: Meth is nasty shit... true enough. He is still an American citizen so he has a couple hours before they burn him out.........
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If it really is a meth lab and they burn him out, there could be a very nasty surprise. In fact, if it really is a meth lab, they may not burn him down out of fear of the big kaboom.
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It' more than a big Kaboom! There are potential envoronmental havards that could well go beyond boom. The byproducts of fire on chemicals is nasty ... I believe a potential byproduct it phosphine gas. The odor threshold for phosephine would put you in IDLH (immediatle dangerouse to life and health) before you can smell it. The acids and bases required if spilled can contaminate soil and groundwater. Not to metion they are most often kept in plastic bottls and last I checked meth labs were not required to be OSHA certified. Unfortunetly these zipperheads usually light themselves on fire. They dont require any help from the government
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:32:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:44:18 PM EST
What would Henry Bowman do?
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:32:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 9:32:12 PM EST by BillofRights]
Not defending druggies, cause I hate them, but I'm willing to bet that a meth lab is not any more of an environmental threat to the surrounding area than your local hardware store. Don't believe, don't believe, don't believe the hype.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:41:57 PM EST
The meth lab bullshit is just another LEO canard to steal more of our rights. I don't give a shit how dangerous a drug is anymore, I don't want them to enforce these draconian laws anymore, PERIOD. They're tearing this country apart. Having drug addicted people is bad, but the remedy, like Prohibition, is worse. Plus, every time I turn around, I hear "meth lab" on tv. So I know it's just another power grab by law enforcement, a way to justify SWAT raids and mass murder. The downward slide is really picking up speed now. Better go buy *a lot* of ammo.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 1:14:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By libertarian:
Originally Posted By alexanderredhook: If this guy is really manufacturing Methamphetamines then who gives a fu## if he has weapons, legal or not. This guy is destroying society as we know it. let the fu(ker ROT IN HELL! I've seen to many of my close personal friends go down the shitter 'cause of that stuff. Alex
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i agree that Methamphetamines are a poison and can destroy someones life forever, but unless they force it into somepersons body, then it should not be a crime. (they did not violate a persons right to life and property on their own initiative) people are responsible for their own health. if they choose to poison their bodies, then they have nobody to blame but themselves. i fully support the operation of those who wish to educate society on the dangers of hard drug use. i will not support the operation of draconic substance laws designed to hamper the fourth amendment (illegal searches and seizures) or wasted tax payer money on a lost "war". non-narcotic using lib
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Meth,crank,speed or Ice,whatever you want to call it does not have to be forced on someone:True. But you have to think of the peer pressure that is involved when you are still an adolescent. I do have personal experience with this drug. I am Four years, nine months and eight days clean. Let me clarify that when I stated the person involved was destroying society, what I really meant was that the drug is destroying society. Also, I live in Contra Costa County which is damn near the meth capital of the world, which means that unless you and your friends are completely straight edge you most likely know someone who has destroyed their life when using this vile drug. This is also the reason why I don't associate with alot of my old friends. Alex [V]
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 4:49:11 AM EST
Good for you Aleaxander! That is way it is supposed to be done. You make a good choice about how you want to run your life. It should not be done at the point of some Fed agents gun! All I see is examples of the Govt. forcing people to do things with the threat of force. "Excuse me, we would like 40% of your earned property to redistribute. No, you don't want to contribute that much? OK we'll be over with a dynamic entry team sometime this week."
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 4:56:54 AM EST
Hopefully they don't start this one like the last; by shooting a fellow agent.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 5:18:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By 101_proof: When did ATF start enforcing DRUG laws????? The ATF has fuckin zero authority over a "meth lab"
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101_Proof, The ATF usually works in conjunction with other agencies when you have varying laws being broken. Doesn't matter who discovered what when, whether it was local LE who had PC on the drugs or DEA or whether the ATF had PC on illegal weapons. They can and do work together. BTW, meth is a disturbing drug and ALWAYS begets violence, in my professional experience. The guys that I have represented in federal court who get clean are like different people and they often are disgusted with their former selves. I have no idea if he's guilty or not so I won't make a judgement on this guy.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 5:24:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2001 5:29:13 AM EST by Steve-in-VA]
Originally Posted By trickshot: The meth lab bullshit is just another LEO canard to steal more of our rights.
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Bullshit, the drug is a killer of lives and it's real. From what I've seen in my federal practice, the people caught and the meth destroyed are but a small percentage of what's out there. They don't need a red herring to conduct LE in this area.
I don't give a shit how dangerous a drug is anymore
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If you could see what I've seen, you would not say that. I have no sympathy for these people and they should NOT be giving gunowners a bad name. Don't make them your poster children. The travesties are anomolies, NOT THE NORM. Wake up and stop believing the hype. The gun laws in this country are gross and have gone too far, however, fighting them by sticking up for meth peddlers is not the answer.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 5:43:44 AM EST
Unfortunetly these zipperheads usually light themselves on fire. They dont require any help from the government
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I didn't read any more about it than what was posted here, but does a 43-year-old named Jamie Schwartz qualify as a zipperhead? I much prefer the term wigger. Wiggers usually light themselves on fire. [;)] About everything Meth does to society and people in general said here I can agree with. All the experience I have had with it involved people I would NOT like to know on a personal basis. And yes, if you don't want to do it, don't. Dealers are a VERY big influence, but they usually don't tie anyone up and force drugs on them. It all starts with mommy and daddy saying "don't do this". Then the individual takes responsibility and makes a decision when presented with it, THEN the finger goes to the dealers, who help create a demand and provide the supply.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 8:52:12 AM EST
It used to be when they served a search warrent they would knock on the door and wave it in your face. Then come on in. How do they do it now? Pick up the phone and call? "Hello. Mr. Doe?" "yes" "This is the BATF and DEA and ... We would like to serve a search warrent on your home. Will you let us in, please." "Not only no, but HELL NO." "Okay, then we will wait out here a few hours and then come on over." click "hehehe. We get to burn another one out. I brought the dogs. Who's got the marshmellows?"
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 8:55:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sweep: And what's up with the neighbor? Not a good one if you ask me! Then again, we don't the whole story either, maybe this guy wasn't the good neighbor, but damn it still gets to me.
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that's funny. i didn't think she was referring to the "perp" when she said she wasn't taking any chances. i thought she was referring to the illustrious history of the FBI and ATF in these things. man, she just said she could see the guy's house. i took that to mean it was close enough for a stray bullet. given who's on the job, i think she's smart for getting her hiney elsewhere.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 11:52:27 AM EST
if there really is a meth lab, let them arrest him and have a trial. This is America, we supposedly have a Constitution, and "rights"
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 12:47:47 PM EST
Wow, there are some seriously paranoid people on this site... Missouri is the #2 highest Meth producer in the nation. Rural, southern regions are the worst. The people down there are, well, different. No mater how silly some of the gun laws are, they are still the law. These drug dealers have no right to possess any weapon in my book. They are evil, cowardly, and probably inbred. Oh, and don't ever say a cop or ATF agent deserves to die. Come on people. That is just a little extreme.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 12:55:02 PM EST
Some of you act like drugs of any kind are no big deal. That the person doing the drugs should be left alone because it is his or her choice. They are only hurting themselves. But what if you get a call one night buy the cops telling you your 16 yr old son or daughter was killed in a car wreck after a methed up piece of shit hit them head on? Would it be your problem then? Would it concern you? One person taking drugs effects everyone around them. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is only harmful to the person doing it. How many innocent people die each year due to alcholics behind the wheel of a car?
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 1:06:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By MP906: Oh, and don't ever say a cop or ATF agent deserves to die. Come on people. That is just a little extreme.
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"Little" is being kind. Well said.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 1:27:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 8:47:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By MP906: Missouri is the #2 highest Meth producer in the nation. Rural, southern regions are the worst. The people down there are, well, different.
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You can't make money bootlegging anymore, so what are you supposed to do?
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 9:50:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Magic: The Davidians had a meth lab too [rolleyes]
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Don't know where you get your info, but it is incorrect. That was just one of the many excuses to kick the door in. KenS
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 4:40:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By kens:
Originally Posted By Magic: The Davidians had a meth lab too [rolleyes]
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Don't know where you get your info, but it is incorrect. That was just one of the many excuses to kick the door in. KenS
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[rolleyes] <- refers to sarcasm.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 5:54:12 AM EST
Looks like he surrendered. [url]http://www.newstribune.com/stories/090901/sta_0909010070.asp[/url]
[size=4][b]Salem man arrested after two day standoff with federal, state authorities [/b][/size=4] SALEM, Mo. (AP) -- A man who was holed up in a home north of Salem was arrested without incident Saturday afternoon by officers who entered the house nearly 48 hours after a standoff began. The suspect offered no resistance when about 20 federal agents entered his home, said Mark James, special agent in charge of the Kansas City office of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Authorities would not say who lived in the home, but relatives and neighbors identified the resident as 43-year-old James "Jamie" Schwartz. The standoff began Thursday afternoon at the home about eight miles north of Salem on Missouri 68 when agents tried to serve a federal search warrant and an occupant refused to come out. A woman left the home Thursday shortly after officers arrived. James would not say where she was or if she had been arrested. No children were in the home when officers arrived. James said he could not discuss what prompted the search warrant because it had been sealed by a judge. He would say only that agents "found what we were looking for." Denton County Sheriff Bob Wofford said his department had previous contact with the suspect but he declined to elaborate. "We knew there was activity here," Wofford said. The suspect is expected to be arraigned before a federal magistrate in St. Louis, possibly as early as Monday, James said. A team of 12 negotiators had been unsuccessful in contacting the man throughout the siege, despite using bullhorns, a telephone and robots equipped with audio and visual capabilities. James said officers decided to enter the home in part because they were concerned about the man's condition. "The individual would not answer us or respond to us," James said. About 100 officers, including some from U.S. Customs, surrounded the home throughout the standoff. Portions of Missouri 68 were closed and two homes located nearby were evacuated. James said the inconvenience caused by the standoff also was a factor in deciding to enter the home. Mike and Mary Mrozowicz, who live in a nearby home that was not evacuated, said the ranch-style house also has a mobile home on the property. The Mrozowiczes said they've seen men wearing camouflage clothing and helmets hiding in the nearby woods with guns. They said they've seen agents coming and going over the last couple of days, but the agents weren't giving area residents any clues what they were doing there. The warrant was ordered out of the eastern district of Missouri. Jan Diltz, spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in St. Louis, said she could not discuss the warrant.
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Link Posted: 9/9/2001 7:06:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 8:00:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sweep:
Originally Posted By NightHawk: Some of you act like drugs of any kind are no big deal. That the person doing the drugs should be left alone because it is his or her choice. They are only hurting themselves. But what if you get a call one night buy the cops telling you your 16 yr old son or daughter was killed in a car wreck after a methed up piece of shit hit them head on? Would it be your problem then? Would it concern you? One person taking drugs effects everyone around them. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is only harmful to the person doing it. How many innocent people die each year due to alcholics behind the wheel of a car?
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Well I guess we need to ban the guns then seeing how a lot of idiots like to go out and shoot up schools and McDonald's. Someone that it pro-gun, but als pro War on Drugs explain to me how you can say it's not the guns fault or the gun manufacturers fault but the person, but then turn around and blame the drug or the drug dealer.
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I'm pro gun and pro war on drugs. And I'll explain it to ya. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are to be used responsibly. Guns aren't going to make you walk into a school or a McDonalds and start shooting. But drugs can cause you to do things you would not do sober. Lets say you had two friends. One is a responsible gun owner and the other is a meth addict. Which one would you let babysit your kids? Would you rather drop your kids off for the night to stay with A) The reponsible gun owner or B) The strung out meth addict? Would you trust a drunk to drive you home safely after a party? Or someone sober who has a CCW permit. Would you trust a doctor to operate on you after taking a hit of acid? Or a doctor that has a gun collection for his hobie. Guns are just inanimate objects. Drugs alter your mind and cause you to do things you wouldn't normaly do sober. Do you teach your children responsible gun safty are do you try and teach them responsible drug use? There is no such thing as responsible drug use. I hope this clears things up a bit. If not I'd be more than happy to talk with you some more.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 8:15:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By BillofRights: Not defending druggies, cause I hate them, but I'm willing to bet that a meth lab is not any more of an environmental threat to the surrounding area than your local hardware store. Don't believe, don't believe, don't believe the hype.
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have you ever cleaned out a lab? Have you ever one seen HCl cylinders plumbed with plastic tubing at your hardware store? These guys dont even need a scrubber to be complient. How much sodium hydroxide is at orchard.. Are people intentionally causeing chemichal reactions at orchard? I have never seen anybody basifying an acid solution next to the godamn plumbing dept! 7 years in hazmat I've never seen a worse mess than a meth lab
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 9:37:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By NightHawk: I'm pro gun and pro war on drugs. And I'll explain it to ya. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are to be used responsibly. Guns aren't going to make you walk into a school or a McDonalds and start shooting. But drugs can cause you to do things you would not do sober.
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The same argument you just made can be used for banning guns. Guns don't kill people, but they make altercations more deadly therefore they need to be banned.
Lets say you had two friends. One is a responsible gun owner and the other is a meth addict. Which one would you let babysit your kids? Would you rather drop your kids off for the night to stay with A) The reponsible gun owner or B) The strung out meth addict? Would you trust a drunk to drive you home safely after a party? Or someone sober who has a CCW permit. Would you trust a doctor to operate on you after taking a hit of acid? Or a doctor that has a gun collection for his hobie. Guns are just inanimate objects. Drugs alter your mind and cause you to do things you wouldn't normaly do sober. Do you teach your children responsible gun safty are do you try and teach them responsible drug use? There is no such thing as responsible drug use. I hope this clears things up a bit. If not I'd be more than happy to talk with you some more.
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Driving while under the influence is a crime. Operating on somebody while under the influence is a crime. Murder, rape, and robbery are crimes. Doing drugs should not be a crime. When drugs were made a crime, it created a black market, so we still have the exact same drug problems, but now we have all the black marketeers killing each other to control the black market too. I personally don't like drugs and the way that families are destroyed by them, but prohibition is not the answer. I thought we had already learned that lesson? The thing that makes me angry is how much freedom we have given up in the name of the drug war. Illegal search and seizure, forfeiture, no knock warrants, and god knows what else. Dealing with the addiction and crime problems directly related to drug use is difficult enough, but the extra crime that comes along with the black market is unmanageable. I don't know the answer, but I can tell you one thing for certain. The war on drugs is NOT the answer.
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