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6/25/2017 7:35:25 PM
6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 9/4/2001 2:11:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2001 2:49:03 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 2:13:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 2:13:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 2:26:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 2:38:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 2:52:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2001 2:54:47 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 3:20:04 PM EDT
Does anyone have any ballistic data concerning a 30/06? If I am not mistaken, even a 180 grain hollow point will basically penetrate with such force as to remove the victims head from his body or make it look like it was hit by an explosive device. I've seen some war photos out there on the internet of FMJ 30/06 wounds. Devastating to say the least. With a hole in the visor on the right side of the Deputy's head and a slug lodged in the left cheek it does not sound like a very "high powered" rifle round to me. More like a 9mm or .223. Beck supposedly shot him at close range too, a 30/06 bullet probably delivers close to 3000 foot pounds of energy at that distance.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 3:28:09 PM EDT
Garand_Shooter, Thank you. I wouldn't have said it so eloquently, and might have been percieved as "paranoid". While I don't doubt it is possible he shot the deputy, the story given in no way proves anything. My BS meter went off several times reading the article, and I am hardly a forensics expert. Interesting that a: "round that fragmented once it hit the helmet's visor..... A fragment of that bullet penetrated the visor........The bullet fragment was removed during the autopsy........ Sheriff's Department weapons experts who examined the fragment said it "was consistent with being fired from a high-powered rifle," according to Peavy." Hello? A fragment can be id'd? Does anyone here know if this is possible? Can they tell if a fragment of a .223, .308 or 7.69 (I assume these are what they mean) be told from a fragment of a .40 S&W or .45 ACP??? I assume fragment means less than a complete projectile leaving weight, shape, and composition up for grabs. How do they do that???????? Ya know, it is quite possible that Beck shot the deputy. And it is sad that there is even a conversation to debate if it is true. But I for one am not convinced by this article. James
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 3:31:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sodie: Does anyone have any ballistic data concerning a 30/06? If I am not mistaken, even a 180 grain hollow point will basically penetrate with such force as to remove the victims head from his body or make it look like it was hit by an explosive device. I've seen some war photos out there on the internet of FMJ 30/06 wounds. Devastating to say the least. With a hole in the visor on the right side of the Deputy's head and a slug lodged in the left cheek it does not sound like a very "high powered" rifle round to me. More like a 9mm or .223. Beck supposedly shot him at close range too, a 30/06 bullet probably delivers close to 3000 foot pounds of energy at that distance.
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No a bullet will not take a head off until we start getting in .50 BMG or 20mm cannon. If he was wearing a helmet it would tend to keep his head together. Many horrendous wounds are at contact type distance when the muzzle balst also hit the victim. I've seen a few gunshot wounds, last on a suicide with a .45 colt, 250 grm bullet. Small exit wound, with barely any blood by the exit wound, because it all drained out through the entrance wound inside his mouth. The bullet kep going, through the house wall and god knows where... Also I believe the are calling it a "fragment", that could be a small part of the bullet, the rest of it might have kept on going.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 3:38:18 PM EDT
sounds like a conspiracy against the white man.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 3:43:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2001 3:45:38 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 3:45:38 PM EDT
So, LEOs can't even shoot at the right house, they like to burn houses down when there is any conflict, and they don't know how to make proper use of cover ("I'm gonna hide behind this SUV, hey is that a donut shop over there, argghh"). And we trust them to investigate themselves? It was obviously a clusterfuck and these are happening too often. LEOs really need to go back to a six-shot revolver, the hi-tech weapons make them a danger to society, and to themselves (Lubbock SWAT).
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 3:46:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2001 3:47:13 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 4:12:18 PM EDT
It's a coverup.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 6:03:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: It's a coverup.
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Yeah, since they covered up the fact they shot up other houses, set his house on fire with tear gas, and he died because he didn't leave a burning house. He probably stole UFO parts from Area 51 when he worked there, that's why they were after him. Come to think of it, a 30 watt laser would cause a fire if it hit flammable material, think about it, Mulder. This is not an X-file.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 6:11:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
About the time Kuredjian was shot, authorities also reported hearing a boom louder than any of the previous rounds of gunfire and seeing a [red]puff of smoke[/red] coming from the second-floor window, concluding that the shot and subsequent rounds came from one of Beck's high-powered rifles, Peavy said. Investigators found several weapons at Beck's home. However, they have not identified one was used to kill Kuredjian.
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Anyone else's BS meter go off the scale when when they saw this? I own many, many "high powered rifles" and have fired tens of thousands of rounds, and have yet to see one time where they produced a "puff of smoke" that would be noticeable from a distance, or even close by. That's why they call it [i]smokeless[/i] powder. Of course, I guess he could have had a high-power assault muzzleloader using black powder [rolleyes]
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When I got my M4gery with the phantom FS is asked my shooting buddy to desrcibe the muzzle flash when I fired. He said it was a gray puff. His AR with a 16" barrel and no FS has a 2' wide flash when he fires. Where does carbon and the other gunk in the barrel come from after firing?? Ammo is not totally "smokeless".
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 6:12:27 PM EDT
I don't know who did what, all I know is that the bigger tragedy here is that our government has become more and more blatent in showing its willingness to kill its citizens, and most people just don't care.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 6:49:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2001 6:52:48 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 6:58:13 PM EDT
He killed the cop so that makes everything that LE did ok?
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[size=2][b]An eye for an eye......[/b][/size=2]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:06:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: No, not entirley smokeless, but damm near. You had to stare at the muzzle to notice anything was there. You just described flash, not smoke. I seriously doubt that he had a rifle that produced a "puff of smoke" so blatant that the same guys that were under fire and scrambling to act could notice? The same guys who couldn't tell what house he was in were good enough to notice the tiny "puff of smoke" that a centerfire rifle generates from the distances they were at? If so, why did they keep pumping rounds into the wrong homes? It sounds good to the gun-ignorant public, but thats about it. Of course, thats all it has to do......
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Very good points. If it was the bolt gun that he used I doubt there was an FS on it so "a puff of smoke" may have been a muzzle flash. Even so like you point out that would raise more questions.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:06:50 PM EDT
Now come on guys! SGB found that article in the newspaper. It says the officer was shot by Beck. Now that’s final. You should learn from my example. If you question anything that supports the LE in this case it is because you are a Beck supporter. How can you possibly think that the Gov. has no right to wage war in a neighborhood? There was a bad guy in there. If you start questioning the ludicrous nature of this episode it simply points out that you are a cop hater, and too infantile to have an opinion or carry on an adult conversation.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:12:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:20:18 PM EDT
I am not sure who's statements I trust least; ATF, LE at the scene or the media. More than likely the whole damn bunch is lying! What IS clear is that the cops use of firearms was unskilled and with very poor judgement. A well liked cop (if THAT is true) is needlessly dead, a suspect is a crisper and a family was unjustly terrorized. Looks like plenty of blame to go around. You can be sure no meaningful CRIMINAL investigations of the LE and tax collectors will EVER happen in this mess. MAYBE the civil trials, and there will be some, can sort it out. Taxpayers, as always, will foot the bill for their employees screwups.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:22:11 PM EDT
Yeah exactly, err wait. This is the site that many people are very interested in guns, gun rights, and CCW. So many of you carry concealed or want to carry concealed, indicating that at anytime something bad could happen and you need to be armed to protect yourself. Some of you even post that you have guns in every room of you house "cause you'll never know where you are when the SHTF". Some of you talk about strapping on your gun when you put your trash out, I must've missed all the "trash robbery-homicides" that have been occurring. Regularly posted on this site are references that .308 is a better round than .223 because you can do head shots out to 800 yards with .308. Some have said that during the Hollywood shoot out the cops should have been able to do head shots at 100 yds. while under fire. Yet when the bad man shoots it out with the cops you immediately say he wasn't that bad the cops deserved it. The cops probably had a friendly fire incident. The cop was too far from the house for Beck to do a head shot with a .30-06 scoped bolt action rifle. Which is it? Are there dangerous people in the world or not?? Are skiled marksmen capable of 800 yd head shots or not?? Well the SHTF for Deputy K. he didn't ask for it and he didn't deserve to die. But I guess that is too simple for some of you to understand because Deputy K. was a LEO he gave his life doing his job. Some of you believe that since he was a LEO he was less worthy of his right to live than anyone else, and you are the same people to complain about the us vs. them.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:30:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Yeah exactly, err wait. This is the site that many people are very interested in guns, gun rights, and CCW. So many of you carry concealed or want to carry concealed, indicating that at anytime something bad could happen and you need to be armed to protect yourself. Some of you even post that you have guns in every room of you house "cause you'll never know where you are when the SHTF". Some of you talk about strapping on your gun when you put your trash out, I must've missed all the "trash robbery-homicides" that have been occurring. Regularly posted on this site are references that .308 is a better round than .223 because you can do head shots out to 800 yards with .308. Some have said that during the Hollywood shoot out the cops should have been able to do head shots at 100 yds. while under fire. Yet when the bad man shoots it out with the cops you immediately say he wasn't that bad the cops deserved it. The cops probably had a friendly fire incident. The cop was too far from the house for Beck to do a head shot with a .30-06 scoped bolt action rifle. Which is it? Are there dangerous people in the world or not?? Are skiled marksmen capable of 800 yd head shots or not?? Well the SHTF for Deputy K. he didn't ask for it and he didn't deserve to die. But I guess that is too simple for some of you to understand because Deputy K. was a LEO he gave his life doing his job. Some of you believe that since he was a LEO he was less worthy of his right to live than anyone else, and you are the same people to complain about the us vs. them.
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[size=4][blue]BRAVO, OLY-M4gery!![/BLUE][/size=4]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:30:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:42:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2001 1:31:24 PM EDT by Sodie]
I hate saying I told you so but... These pics are really gross. They are graphic images of head wounds from high powered rifles. Due to the spherical shape of the skull which contains a large amount of fluids, many high powered rifle calibers will cause this kind of "explosive" wound. [b]Don't look if you are squeemish. You may lose your lunch![/b] [b]FAL[/b] [url]http://vatican.rotten.com/gunshot/fn-shot.jpg[/url] [b]30-30[/b] [url]http://vatican.rotten.com/gunshot/30-30.jpg[/url] [b]pistols[/b] [url]http://vagina.rotten.com/poliz1/poliz2.jpg[/url] [url]http://vagina.rotten.com/poliz1/poliz8.jpg[/url]
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:52:55 PM EDT
I don’t think Deputy K deserved to die. I also don’t think that that neighborhood deserved to have a war conducted in it. I think Beck got off to easy, if he in fact shot the deputy. But that’s not what we want to hear is it? If when the first shots were fired the officials had chosen not to escalate the tension, and worked on evacuation of innocent. Perhaps work on a plan to isolate Beck and reduce targets. Maybe just maybe Deputy K would be with us today. But that’s not as cool as seeing who has the most fire power. If I shot up my neighbors house, trying to protect my family from a bad guy, it wouldn’t matter if I had a CCW or thought the world was a dangerous place. I would pay for it. Why is it differant if someone carries a badge?
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 7:31:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Well the SHTF for Deputy K. he didn't ask for it and he didn't deserve to die. But I guess that is too simple for some of you to understand because Deputy K. was a LEO he gave his life doing his job. Some of you believe that since he was a LEO he was less worthy of his right to live than anyone else, and you are the same people to complain about the us vs. them.
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Yes, and some believe that because he was a LEO he was more worthy of some rights, or his life was more valuable. And some of us see his life as being no more or less valuable than anyone else just because he wore a badge. Some seem to forget that two lives were lost that day both equally as sacred.
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Well Deputy K . was a LEO in the lawsuit, gossip, and PC capitol of the world. Do you think if he had been heavy handed in the past the press wouldn't have gotten a hold of that?? Or people wouldn't be coming forward with stories of what bad things he did to them in the past?? Deputy K.'s story seems to be one of a nice guy. His co-workers didn't talk about what a great cop he was or all the arrestd he made. The said he was a nice guy. After Beck was burned up his parents apologized publicly for what he had done. Why would that be? Is it possible they knew exactly who he was and what he was capable of?? On the value of life. If a guy breaks into your house and he shoots you and you shoot back and kill him. Should we say that you responded inapropriatly because after all he only wounded you?? Should you be charged for killing someone involved in a criminal act that uses deadly force to further his crimes?? Well Garand_Shooter?? Or will you say that a person using deadly force during a crime is just working towards his own destruction?? Look at all the posts, look at the ones at the start with the glee expressed when it was reported that an ATF agent was killed, multiple post saying the ATF is the enemy go ahead and kill them. Try and find anywhere near that level of vicousness in the post from people that are sying Beck was a criminal.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 9:49:45 AM EDT
1). They had a valid search and arrest warrant. Beck had no right to resist. 2). Beck knew they were law enforcement. 3). I always hear a large amount of moaning and wailing about Law Enforcement tactics around here. So ATF and LASO did not do a dynamic entry or high-risk warrant here. They called Beck and asked him to come out, then he started shooting. Sounds to me like they would have done better to blow his door down. If they would have, Beck and Deputy Kuredjian would probably be alive now, Beck would be in jail, and this whole incident would have never crossed anyone's radar screen. This type of scenario (dangerous felonious nut who needs to be arrested) is why dynamic forced entry techniques exist. 4). The use of suppressive fire, especially when it hit the wrong houses, is uncalled for and rarely is a legitimate tactic for Law Enforcement agencies. I don't know anyone who teaches it or advocates it except under very extreme and specific circumstances. 5). Why are agencies still using pyrotechnic gas dispensers? There are plenty of very good non-pyro systems out there. My personal favorite, and it works well, is "Clear-Out." Pyrotechnic gas should only be used for outdoor situations, particularly riot control. 6). Beck's actions and statements, from start to finish, make it clear that he wanted to fight and die. After a certain point, law enforcement was merely obliging his wishes and facilitating his demise. You can't save everyone. He did not deserve to die (no one really does) but there is a limit to what we can reasonably expect officers to do to save someone. There is plenty of blame to go around. Beck's for breaking the law in the first place, resisting and killing the deputy. Law Enforcement for not using better tactics to arrest Beck (of course, if they would have gone dynamic from the start, everyone here would have railed about "JBTs" and the like), poor tactics during the extended gun battle, and bad use of gas. When the smoke clears though, Beck is a still the bad guy, and LE made some bad, but human and non-malicious mistakes. Learn from it and deal with it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 10:17:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2001 10:19:43 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 11:46:51 AM EDT
Why do you keep bringing the BATF into this. Beck was not killed by the BATF, but by the LA County Sheriffs Department. They neigboring houses were fired into by LA County Sheriffs, not BATF. They guys in the tank with the M60 were NOT BATF but LACSO. It was LACSO SWAT that fired the teargass into the house, and burned it down. By their own admission now, NOT the ATF. BATF was called into this whole mess by other law enforcement, and had no input into the conduct of the affair. All the efforts of the LACSO now are on minimizing the damage from lawsuits, and keeping the elected sheriff from being turned out at the next election. That is why the cover up, not because they are hiding some grand scheme to disarm Americans in secret. Beck hasnt harmed you, Garand Shooter but doesnt mean he hasnt harmed other gun owners. That AR and AK had to come from somewhere other than a gun store. So one of our fellow AR shooters in California is out a weapon he cant replace now in the PRK, becuase the thugs Beck fenced for stole it from them. Who takes away more guns from gun owners really Garand Shooter, burglers or the ATF. Think about it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 1:09:42 PM EDT
Save your breath G Shooter. Its not that they can’t understand what you are saying. They don’t want to understand. They only see this as Beck vs Deputy K. Once that happened all bets were off, common sense was thrown to the wind. See the thing that worries you the most, is the same thing they are trying to justify as being a minor side note. If you try to point out that two wrongs don’t make a right, then they will paint you as a Beck worshiper. This is all very typical Liberal white wash. You have a point that is damaging to them, so instead acknowledging a mistake, they will try to discredit you. They do this by making statements to make it look like you approve of criminal activity, and also by keeping the touchy, feely part of this tragedy in the for front. By doing this they can make any point you have seem irrelevant. They can then make any action they take seem warranted. All they have to do is keep you talking about Beck vs Deputy K, and they will never have to address any of your concerns. Liberalism 101. It scares the hell out of you that someday you may look out your window at an army of men, which really don’t give a crap whether you live or burn to death. They will be there because one of your neighbors said you looked suspicious and they are the LAW.. It scares the hell out of them because you might be the next nutcase that decides that enough is enough.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 1:20:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 1:24:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2001 1:26:18 PM EDT by TreetopFlyer]
Originally Posted By SGB: [>(] [i][b]"If you're not part of TreetopFlyer's Solution, you [s]must be[/s] are a liberal"[/i][/b] sgb[}:D]
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Im glad you're beginning to see the light!
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 1:31:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sodie: Does anyone have any ballistic data concerning a 30/06? If I am not mistaken, even a 180 grain hollow point will basically penetrate with such force as to remove the victims head from his body or make it look like it was hit by an explosive device. I've seen some war photos out there on the internet of FMJ 30/06 wounds. Devastating to say the least. With a hole in the visor on the right side of the Deputy's head and a slug lodged in the left cheek it does not sound like a very "high powered" rifle round to me. More like a 9mm or .223. Beck supposedly shot him at close range too, a 30/06 bullet probably delivers close to 3000 foot pounds of energy at that distance.
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Federal Cartridge Specs: 30-06 Springfield 185 Gr. Barnes SLC Ft. lbs at muzzle = 2915 at 100 yds= 2550 at 200 yds= 2220 at 300 yds= 1830
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 1:33:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 1:46:22 PM EDT
SGB [img]http://www.ar15.com/images/postPics/sgb.gif[/img] wouldn’t be any fun otherwise. LOL
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 3:07:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ECS:
Originally Posted By Sodie: Does anyone have any ballistic data concerning a 30/06? If I am not mistaken, even a 180 grain hollow point will basically penetrate with such force as to remove the victims head from his body or make it look like it was hit by an explosive device. I've seen some war photos out there on the internet of FMJ 30/06 wounds. Devastating to say the least. With a hole in the visor on the right side of the Deputy's head and a slug lodged in the left cheek it does not sound like a very "high powered" rifle round to me. More like a 9mm or .223. Beck supposedly shot him at close range too, a 30/06 bullet probably delivers close to 3000 foot pounds of energy at that distance.
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Federal Cartridge Specs: 30-06 Springfield 185 Gr. Barnes SLC Ft. lbs at muzzle = 2915 at 100 yds= 2550 at 200 yds= 2220 at 300 yds= 1830
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I estimated the deputy to be about 120 feet away from the Beck Home. I guess only a few of us are concerned about the actual facts. Did you read what the police said about the trajectory of the bullet? The said it went from right to left, assuming he was facing the house (pretty good assumption), from the side of the Explorer with the blood, his left side should have been hit first... I am betting he got hit with a .223 from a department M16.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 3:34:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2001 4:15:27 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 4:10:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer: Save your breath G Shooter. Its not that they can’t understand what you are saying. They don’t want to understand. They only see this as Beck vs Deputy K. Once that happened all bets were off, common sense was thrown to the wind. See the thing that worries you the most, is the same thing they are trying to justify as being a minor side note. If you try to point out that two wrongs don’t make a right, then they will paint you as a Beck worshiper. This is all very typical Liberal white wash. You have a point that is damaging to them, so instead acknowledging a mistake, they will try to discredit you. They do this by making statements to make it look like you approve of criminal activity, and also by keeping the touchy, feely part of this tragedy in the for front. By doing this they can make any point you have seem irrelevant. They can then make any action they take seem warranted. All they have to do is keep you talking about Beck vs Deputy K, and they will never have to address any of your concerns. Liberalism 101. It scares the hell out of you that someday you may look out your window at an army of men, which really don’t give a crap whether you live or burn to death. They will be there because one of your neighbors said you looked suspicious and they are the LAW.. It scares the hell out of them because you might be the next nutcase that decides that enough is enough.
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Look Hanoi Treetop Flyer Jane 1) I've said from close to the begining of this that the tear gas set the fire. 2) I've sad that the shooting by the LACSO violated some use of force rules. When is team lunatic going to admit that Beck was an adult and responsible for his own actions?? Since I haven't seen that yet. Us "liberals" Keep saying something about personal responsibilty. You keep saying that is fine for the SO but Beck is somehow immune. When are you going to say he doesn't have a right to commit crimes?? Or resist the sevice of a legal document specifically created in the Constitution, a search warrant??
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 4:15:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Well Deputy K . was a LEO in the lawsuit, gossip, and PC capitol of the world. Do you think if he had been heavy handed in the past the press wouldn't have gotten a hold of that?? Or people wouldn't be coming forward with stories of what bad things he did to them in the past??
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Did I accuse him of that? How did that come into play here. I never said he was heavy handed, or even a bad guy.
Deputy K.'s story seems to be one of a nice guy. His co-workers didn't talk about what a great cop he was or all the arrestd he made. The said he was a nice guy.
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As folks always do after someone dies. Once again, why bring this up?
After Beck was burned up his parents apologized publicly for what he had done. Why would that be? Is it possible they knew exactly who he was and what he was capable of??
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?, or maybe they just felt bad about it. Once again, what does it matter?
On the value of life. If a guy breaks into your house and he shoots you and you shoot back and kill him. Should we say that you responded inapropriatly because after all he only wounded you?? Should you be charged for killing someone involved in a criminal act that uses deadly force to further his crimes?? Well Garand_Shooter?? Or will you say that a person using deadly force during a crime is just working towards his own destruction??
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Dude, you must be suffering from sleep depervation or something, cause that rambling paragraph made no sense and had no connection to what you are replying to. All I said was two equally sacred lives were lost (human life is sacred, at least to me, and not to be taken without just cause) and that not everyone thinks that the moment someone straps on a badge they suddenly become worth more than the rest of us.(even though the law itself is written that way in many cases) Musta hit a nerve I reckon.
Look at all the posts, look at the ones at the start with the glee expressed when it was reported that an ATF agent was killed, multiple post saying the ATF is the enemy go ahead and kill them. Try and find anywhere near that level of vicousness in the post from people that are sying Beck was a criminal.
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Wanna know the differnce? Wanna know why folks reacted like that? Beck wasn't out to strip each and every one of us (except you, they will need LEO support) of thier freedom. Thats why there was a differnt reaction. I never felt beck was a threat to me, but BATF agents are. I never knew Becks history, but I know the track record of the BATF. Law abiding gun enthusiests like myself never feared Beck, but we fear some BATF agent running in and ruining our life if we make a minor technical violation. Or setting us up to make that violation. Thats why that reaction.
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Yes you have pretty much accused every LEO of being a JBT and deserving what they get. Beck was out to kill people, that removes all their Rights. I've never even met an ATF agent have you?? Is the life of a person involved in a criminal act as valuable as the life of his victim?? Answer that Garand_Shooter, if you say yes how is the use of deadly force justified in self defense??
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 4:26:01 PM EDT
I am still suspicious of the shooting of the Deputy. The people who had the results done have a conflict of interest, as they were the ones who would be sued in civil court if it turned out that another officer had fired the fatal round. LA County should not have been allowed to handle the forensic investigation. Can I be 100 percent sure that Beck was using stolen guns. No. Just like I cant be 100 percent sure that another officer was responsible for the Deputy's death. But it is the most likely cause and untill proven otherwise (when the numbers comeback) I will beleve it to be the most likely option. Beck was a convicted felon who's civil rights have not been restored, he could not have acquired guns leagally. One of his convictions was for recieving stolen property. Stolen guns commmand good money in LA and would have explained how he could afford the house, car, and girlfriend when he had no known employment.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 4:45:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2001 4:49:46 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
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