When ever you employ military tactics, friendly fire incidents can and do occur during the [b]War....er....Police action.[/b]

I can see no differences in actions, methods, and equipment by the police in this incident and a standing army.  When is a police force no longer a police force and now Army?

The problem is not sticking your head out the window and getting shot, we all know that the majority of cops couldn't hit anything anyway, it is that once they commit to a course of action, they have to follow though, or they would lose face.  

How hard is it really to dump a few more "assulat weapons" in the house next door - voila, a whole friggin neighborhood of terrorists and snipers.

Jeez, just look at what we found in their house, BBQ tanks for bombs, chlorine and ammonia under the sink, obviously they were going to make posion gas, holy crap, they had frozen orange juice hidden in the freezer (how tricky of those sniveling cowardly terrorists!) and an almost full can of gasoline(Note to media, henceforth to be known as "Petro-Chemical Assualt liquids") right there is napalm, just imagine what they could do with that stuff!

The house was filled to the brim with tools of the terrorist trade, hell they even had special bomb making wire conviently disguised as chritmas tree lights!

Fry them all, and burn their neighbors down for being sympathizers and not turning them in!

I can't believe these clowns were there to take away someone ELSE'S guns.
Talk about irresponsible gun owners.
They should be allowed one bullet and kept only in their shirt pocket.

The BATF gets the shit shot out of them in gunfights anyway, they should just carry flame throwers.

Along with the smell of everything that was burned, I do distinctively smell the aroma of lawsuits in the air.

One of the LEOs was quoted in the paper saying that this raid was well-planned and that they didn't plan it five minutes before at the local dunkin donuts shop. Heck, it appears that the planning took place on the way over from the dunkin donuts shop. I can just picture the planning session in the ride over with a bunch of cops talking with mouths stuff full of powdered donuts.

I don't know how to say this respectively to the LEOs that are first-class, but where are we getting some of these dipsticks and giving them a license to shoot people? Is the pay that bad?

Stator, didn't the ATF BBQ everyone with a legal interest in the outcome of this?

Hey, people, where were those "assualt" weapons that we had to kill that guy over (yes "we", those animals BBQ'ed him in our name don't forget)?  ALls I have seen so far was a .380 pistol (a BB gun is about as deadly and a scoped deer rifle.  Wheres the AK he was supposed to be firing on full auto or the AR they were sure that they saw as they opened up on him and the surrounding neighborhood?

Haven't they had time to plant them yet, or do they not even have to bother with that nicitie any longer?  They just have to report maybe seeing something that could have been an AK-47 (oh...ok...it might have been a floor lamp also) and that is grounds for torching a neighborhood?

The silence from the LEO members on this board is deafaning.

It is hard to be an anus-licking apologist when the facts fly squarely in your face.

I guess they are hoping that once the police finish their investigation and find that no LEO either federal or local was at fault for anything, then they can come out and point to that as proof.

Until then, they wait.

SGB, you are a Marine, aren't you (non-active duty, I understand), what is the three tasks Marines are trained for?

Give it time SGB, one of us will be proven to be right, in the mean time, relax and enjoy the mess that is our political system.

Hmmm, I tend to agree with you SGB, although I think that with the militarization of local PD's and federal agencies, we will be seeing more and more instances like this.  PD's will use the tools provided to them (how long do you think they would have gone without using that M60?)

That can't be allowed to happen.  While I find it a shame that someone blindly stumbles into something that kills them, I also feel that that is nature in action.  they should not have been harrassing Beck in the first place, YMMV, the events might turn out a different way than I am postulating, but from a historical perspective I don't think they will.

We are on a gradual and non-stoppable slide, this is just the start.

(BTW, those three things are (1)Kill, (2)Kill and (3)Kill.)

No disrespect here, SGB, I'm waiting for the rest of the story to come out before I form a final opinion. But as to this part of your quote, what about crack dealers, heroin dealers, hit men, military dictators, and other similar career paths. I for one find it easy to hate these people based simply on their PROFESSION.

Just thought I'd point that out.

SGB, the quote by Alexander Solzhenitsyn on the first page of this thread says it all.  At what point are we forced to resist evil rather than cowering in fear or going along for the ride?

Would you slit the throat of a Nazi Stormtrooper?  A KGB operative?  

I like your posts, and we agree on many things.  I don't hate police, I hate militarized law enforcement that is going to force its will upon you or kill you trying.  I hate those who believe their actions are "right" merely because they've aligned themselves with the state and have a piece of paper saying that what they do is acceptable.  That's not civility, that's not rule of law, it's just barbarism, pure and simple.  And you can only teach barbarians to behave in in one way--by causing them pain.  That's what Solzhenitsyn was talking about.  Read his books.  

This Beck situation is totally FUBAR--I mean, they can't even keep their story straight.  First, it was "two guys walk up and knock on the door and one was shot and killed by Beck."

Now the story is:  "A fully armed team of JBTs assaulted the house and opened up on innocent bystanders during the ensuing gun fight."

What am I to believe?  Can I believe anything anymore?  As someone who wishes to remain alive and defend what little freedom he has left, I have to assume that it was a coordinated, pre-planned attack and that it included psyops people who feed propaganda to the media to further confuse and obfuscate what took place there.  

[qoute]The three-hour exchange ended after tear gas
projectiles were shot into Beck's house and a fire
erupted. Flames quickly engulfed the home, burning it
to the ground. But authorities were still unclear how the
fire began. [/qoute]

This is hilarious. Pretty obvious that when you shoot pyrotechnic devices into a normal persons house, it MIGHT just cause a fire, especially on a carpet, etc. Geez, Joe Q. Public is an idiot. It's right there in front of them in the same paragraph. 'WE DON"T KNOW HOW IT STARTED!' 'WE JUST FIRED SOME BURNING OBJECTS INTO THE HOUSE... THAT'S ALL!!!'

_FS

Well could it be that every third post contains references to arresting him and smashing through his front door. It was a SEARCH warrant, generally those should be served when a property owner is present. Thers was no smashing through doors they set up a perimeter and called him and asked him to come out. Please try to keep the post based in fact.  

Gabe Suarez, who has posted on this site, posted on Glock Talk that he arrested Beck about 10 years ago, Beck had a pistol and select fire rifle, for impersonating an officer. Saurez said he thought the motive was robeery or sexual assualt.

Beck was a police officer for about a year, by my math he was about 21 yoa. He was later convicted of burglary, recieving stolen property. He also appears to have been investigated by the ATF and DEA on seperate occasions.

If you are a police officer you can not have a felony conviction. Being a police officer doesn't prevent you from being accused, arrested, and convicted of a felony. Being a felon will keep you from becoming or continuing to be a police officer.

1) Beck was a convicted felon
2) Beck Was apparently telling people he was a LEO
3) Some reports say weapons were going in and out of the Beck house. (stolen guns?)
4) Beck's house was bought by his parents.
5) Beck apparently was not employed.
6) A [red] SEARCH [/red]warrant was obtained for Beck's house.
7) The USMS/ATF/LACSO tried to serve the warrant.
8) The set up a perimeter and called Beck, telling him of the warrant.
9) LEO's approached the house, Beck said something about his dog, then started shooting.
10) The Deputy that was killed responed to the incident, he was not on the warrant team.
11) As other LEO's tried to gain entry to the house, through a window, the Deputy was shot and killed.
12) Beck fired on the Medevac chopper attemting to get the Deputy to a hospital
13) Tear gas was fired into Beck's house, Beck was reportdly still shooting from the house.
14) The tear gas set the house on fire.
15) Beck stayed in a burning house.
16) Beck was killed in a fire, even though he could have walked out if he WANTED TO.
17) Beck's body was found near weapons, a bullet proof vest, and an old CHP badge.  

Fire fighters don't fight fires when they can get shot at. Exterior fire fighting is ineffective. If Beck wanted the fire in his house fought he needed to get out of it.

The LACSO fired teargas into Beck's house in RESPONSE to Beck's use of deadly force. They may be justified in fireing teargas that might cause a fire into a structure that contains a person that is activley SHOOTING towards other people.

Beck is repsonsible for his actions and the consequences.

1) Decided to commit felonies.
2) Convicted of those acts, barred from owning guns.
3) Decided to own guns anyway.
4) Decided to shoot at LEO's attempting to serve a warrant, evidently because he knew they caught him in a criminal act.


The LEO's were initially attempting to do what many of YOU advocate. No door kicking, ninja suited, home invasion warrant service tactics. They called him said we got a warrant, please tie up you dog.

Yes you are correct they shouldn't fire any weapons unless the have

1) the imminenent threat of great bodily harm or death.
2) target identification
3) target acquisition
4) target isolation, (greater dnager theory)

So firing on neighbors houses is in violation of some basic use of force rules.

Why didn't the LACSO have non-flammable gas rounds?? That was an administrative choice.  

Yeah, I beleive maybe half of that.  Why didn't you throw in that they suspected him of child molesation, that is the big thing on the news now, with LEO's nodding sagely that it all could be true.

Would have made sense for him to be wearing that BPV, instead of sitting near him, don't you think?  I t must have been too difficult to plant that on his actual body, so throw it next to him and it is almost as good, right?

[qoute]The three-hour exchange ended after tear gas
projectiles were shot into Beck's house and a fire
erupted. Flames quickly engulfed the home, burning it
to the ground. But authorities were still unclear how the
fire began. [/qoute]

This is hilarious. Pretty obvious that when you shoot pyrotechnic devices into a normal persons house, it MIGHT just cause a fire, especially on a carpet, etc. Geez, Joe Q. Public is an idiot. It's right there in front of them in the same paragraph. 'WE DON"T KNOW HOW IT STARTED!' 'WE JUST FIRED SOME BURNING OBJECTS INTO THE HOUSE... THAT'S ALL!!!'

_FS

Just reported:  LEO's admit to shooting and killing his dog.

I guess the dog didn't comply fast enough...

If it was so easy to find the AK-47 and AR-15 in the ashes of the burnt house, why haven't I heard if they ever found the illegal weapons they were looking for down in Waco?

 David

Vulcan94, it was much easier to bulldoze out in the open in waco, then it would be in that tiny little suburban lot.

Even when they find evidence, if it goes against their case it dissappears, it dissappears faster than a pro-democracy protestor in red china.

(remember that metal front door from Waco, showing only incoming rounds and no rounds fired from inside the house?  Gone!  and it weighted a good 700 pounds, must have slipped out with the good coke...)

I really think the ATF Swat Teams need to be stood down and investigated. Maybe from now on, they need to be only able to request backup, as their own raids always seem to go bad.

Fired?  If I did this I'd be sent to jail.

I guess we really DO have a double standard for police, and it's not a higher standard.

Fired?  If I did this I'd be sent to jail.

I guess we really DO have a double standard for police, and it's not a higher standard.

they would have tear gassed and shot at him, and if they didn't kill him he would have been arrested for having an arsenal and firing at the police

sadly I don't think the sheeple would even blink.
news report:
"shortly after the gunman set his own house on fire it spread to a neighboring house. Firefighters were unable to put out the fire because anti-government extremeists in the neighborhood fired at them with automatic assualt weapons and anti-armor arms. They allowed themselves to burn rather than be captured"

There was a spokesman on the evening news tonight, saying that media reports claiming the shot was from friendly fire were false. He said the analysis of the bullet trajactory, during the autopsy, showed that it came from Beck. He added also that the bullet fragmented, so any further ballistic analysis would be impossible.

Of course they will say it "fragmented"...
A "fragmented" bullet can't be traced back to the cops gun who shot him...

They will cover ALL the tracks here.


Also...
Weren't these cops taught,
... "KNOW YOUR TARGET" ???

Since when is it "OK" to just shoot the fuck out of whatever house you "THINK" the badguy is in ???

WHAT A BUNCH OF FUCKING IDIOTS !!!

They can cover their asses all they want now that there never will be a trial and have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Beck fired that round.

Anyone have an overhead pic showing that SUV where that cop was taking cover behind?

The hell there wont. You honestly think that the dead cops family isnt going to sue the LACSO for millions if there is the slightest hint anyone other than the suspect killed him?
We ARE talking about California now, the lawsuit capitol of the world.

Hate to burst your bubble, but all the shooting and burning was by the local police. They various news outlets have now agreed that there were only 8 ATF agents present. That isnt enough to do all this shooting. Besides they were there from the begining and knew which house to shoot into. The Sheriffs coming to "resuce" them after they (maybe) drew fire were the ones who shot into other houses because they didnt know which one they were supposed to go to. And the tear gas that burned the place down absoultely came from the LACSO SWAT. I am not saying that the ATF were compitent in this, but they were in too small a number to do this amount of damage.

Check out the story here: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=49089&page=1#bottom[/url]

No jacket in the guys head?

Me thinks we have another "magic bullet" here folks.

The SUV looks like a white pickup from this photo. It's hard to judge, but it also looks like a very poor angle to shoot down at. The garage gets in the way. Not impossible although from the front upstairs window.
[img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/028/As/Ed/gl/6543233.jpg[/img]

Is that how far everyone was during the BBQ?

I missed the news reports all day long.

Another fine mess they got themselves into. From the picture above, that's pretty far away distance for a head shot. Something is wrong with this picture.

Beck got an AK and an AR but no FAL? Man, I am disappointed.

Well, a FAL is a battle rifle, not a siege rifle.  [;)]

If you look at the pictures, there is a large quantity of blood near that red SUV.  He didnt get shot getting off the bike, he was shot hiding behind the Explorer.  Other deputies asked "The house with the Explorer, right?" probably in reference to that house (and that SUV).  

[b]My theory:[/b] Considering the other cops couldnt hit the broad side of the barn, I bet Kuredjian turned around to yell at his fellow "officers" to stop firing at the wrong house, and he got it in the forehead.  If he kept his head down when he turned around, it would cause the Medical Examiner to believe he was looking at Beck's house and got shot from above.  One officer supposedly fired over 150 rounds from his AR-15 alone, .223 ballistics would explain the bullet being too fragmented to use for ballistic identification.

Kharn
PS: Here are some pictures:
[img]http://luckycow.com/beck/compilation.jpg[/img]
Panaramic compilation
[img]http://luckycow.com/beck/captureD19.jpg[/img]
Close up
[img]http://a1844.g.akamai.net/f/1844/95/10m/images.ibsys.com/2001/0901/942876.jpg[/img]
The house with all the white smoke around it was Beck's house.
[img]http://www.luckycow.com/beck/rev.jpg[/img]
Field of fire image, I dont know what it means, but I assume someone here could explain it.

Second look at the picture, the Police officer got shot right where the red SUV is (blood is still there), which is parked in front of the house next to Beck's house.  So, it is fairly close range and a direct shot from Beck's windows. At first I thought that the officer got shot where his bike parked (that is far away from Beck's house).

Now, if the other officers shoot at that wrong house with the SUV packed out front then he is right in the line of fire.

How would the media present this mess if the neighbor's daughter got shot by LEO's that were pumping the wrong house full of lead? How would you react if an unknown "gang" began shooting into our house and killed your wife and newborn? Would the newborn being killed by LEO's be justifiable since they were after a dangerous felon? (collateral damage?) Would you be held responsible if you took down a few officers after they killed you family?

The debate continues
[url]http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010903/us/warrant_shootout_21.html[/url]

I agree Kharn, I had heard the rifle was a .30-06 rifle.  What would a head shot at about 120 feet with a .30-06 look like?  I have images of JFK riding in a limo when I think of that.  That the round fragmented so much leads me to believe it was .223 from an LAPD M16.  Just measure the entrance hole in the helmet.

Got this got from the LA Times.

[b]The slain deputy was wearing a motorcycle helmet. Sheriff's investigators theorized that Beck used a sight to target the helmet, firing a round that fragmented once it hit the helmet's visor. A fragment of that bullet penetrated the visor and the main body of the fiberglass helmet before entering the deputy's head near the right temple. It passed through his skull and brain and then lodged in his left cheek, Peavy said.[/b]

If the picture of the Explorer is correct, then why would the bullet enter the right part of the head and end up in the left?  I would be expecting the cop to be facing forward toward the suspect's home.

If that is indeed blood on the ground near the right rear of the vehicle, and if he was shot near that area, it would make more sense for the bullet to go Left to right not what they are reporting.

The warrant was never served. Shooting started after they broke into his house throught the window and trying to break down his door.

So? Was he a violent felon? no. So his rkba should not be denied

So. telling and impersonating(attempting to use a badge to force people to do somthing) a LEO are two different things.

there is no indication they were stolen guns. he could have been just taking his guns to the range.

So?

Which was never served and now is currently sealed.

Wrong. They approached the house telling him they wanted to talk to him. he said no. They called him, trying to get him to come out. He said don't hurt my dog. They said screw the dog. He said my GF is coming out, don't kill her. They then proceeded to try to bust down the door, and then break in the window. that is when he started shooting

No, he was killed hiding behind a SUV. And it looks like he was killed by other cops.

Not substantiated. They also said the same thing about weaver.

Just like the people could have run out of the Waco Building if they wanted to. Of course your ignoring the fact that even if he did run out, he probably thought he would be shot and killed. Based on past experience with "incidents" of this kind, so would I

So?

Good Post Garand_Shooter.  You are correct in saying that it is OK to hate those who would restrict your freedom.  They are stealing something more precious than any property.

SGB, per your article link above:

"The angle of the shot, analysis of the bullet that hit Deputy Hagop "Jake" Kuredjian and statements by suspected gunman James Allen Beck all indicate that Beck was responsible for the death, sheriff's officials said, seeking to dismiss speculation that Kuredjian was hit by "friendly fire."

How did they get a statement from James Beck?  They use a medium or something?