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Posted: 9/2/2001 3:13:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 3:15:07 AM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
In regards to the Santa Clarita incident. [url]http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-090201shoot.story[/url] Kincaid said that his agents were as prepared as they needed to be in executing the search warrant, and that they had developed more than enough probable cause to do so. [b]He said the ATF had information that Beck had purchased ammunition for an assault weapon.[/b]
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 3:16:26 AM EDT
So ammo purchases are directly linked to ATF computers now?
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 3:33:48 AM EDT
Cripe! The cops were shooting just to be shooting and didn't even know which house they were supposed to be shooting at! And people are worried because I have a gun?
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 5:03:20 AM EDT
Of course, they havent shown any pictures of an "assault weapon". Probably his Rem700 is in .308 or .223, which would explain the ammo choice. Notice the police do not distinguish between ammo for use in an "assault rifle", or ammo that "assault rifles" are chambered for. Kharn
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 5:12:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Oslow: Cripe! The cops were shooting just to be shooting and didn't even know which house they were supposed to be shooting at! And people are worried because I have a gun?
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Couldn't have said it better.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 5:25:20 AM EDT
Keystone kops! What a bunch of idiots. Everyone should be really afraid, Beck might have had a VAULT! I'll bet anyone who buys a safe is on some damn database somewhere as a dangerous "resister"!
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 7:20:44 AM EDT
Idiots couldn't hit the broadside of a house any way....oh waitaminute..... Bulldog Out [:(!]
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 9:03:35 AM EDT
After reading the article it sounds to me they don't even know for sure if Mr. Beck even killed the deputy, especially with a quote like this: [i]Authorities said they believe Beck shot Kuredjian from an upstairs window, although they were still gathering information about the killing. "No one saw Beck shoot Jake," said Sheriff's Lt. Carl Deeley. "People right next to him just saw him go down. There were so many shots going off; it's hard to tell where they are coming from."[/i] What are the odds we have ourselves another Lubbock fiasco here? Not that LEO's are capable of killing each other, it is obviously always the fault of the Crispy Civilian(s). rDAm
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 9:06:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 9:07:20 AM EDT by Sodie]
Man...I never even considered that Deputy Kuredjian could have been hit with friendly fire. Now I know why they started to demonize Beck from the very start. Pass the buck to the dead guy! [b]A man who lived across the street from Beck said he saw sheriff's deputies firing at a home next door to the suspect's. "I hollered out the window, 'You're shooting at the wrong house!' " said the man, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "They must have heard us or something, because I could hear one of the deputies say, 'Is it the house with the Explorer?' And another guy says, 'No, the one next to it.' " Leyva acknowledged that deputies fired at that house, as well as the house on the other side of Beck's. "We did hit the houses on either side," he said. "I don't know exactly what was happening at the time, I don't know how well [the deputies'] aim was, but they were returning fire and trying to rescue someone, so I'm sure they were hitting things during the battle." The two houses next door to Beck's--at least one of which was occupied by a couple and a baby during the shooting--were pocked with numerous bullet marks. The baby's father, who asked not to be identified, said, "The shots came through our [front] window and into our house."[/b]
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 9:13:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 9:58:12 AM EDT by bunghole]
The two houses next door to Beck's--at least one of which was occupied by a couple and a baby during the shooting--were pocked with numerous bullet marks. The baby's father, who asked not to be identified, said, "The shots came through our [front] window and into our house."
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I would say that he should sue the BATF. But if he does that, they will come back to shoot up his neighbors houses.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 9:15:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:29:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 12:36:19 PM EDT by timh70]
Slowly but surely the true story is comming out. Wow do you shoot a guy on the COVERED porch from an upstairs window??? Sounds like a frame up more and more....(as far as the cop killing charge goes). Ok.. Now that I have read the article it seems that the LEO's were VERY NEGLEGENT in the discharge of their weapons. This IS another Waco fiasco. If the guy walked his dog at all hours, they could have served the warrant while the guy was outside of his house, instead of waiting and serving it while he was inside. Thank God that the people with the baby didn't get wounded or killed. What a bunch of clowns. Does Barnum and Baily run the LEO's out there??
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:35:46 PM EDT
Hmmm. Now we have cops that admit they don't know who shot the deputy, admit they were shooting at the wrong house. Common, how can you miss a house!!!!!! And are armed with fed machine guns. The scary things is that the libs that only want the police to be armed, were probably living next door to this guy!!! Hope they like their new ventilation. Again, I don't see why people wonder why we question the use of swat and having police with heavy weapons. Heck, the use them and don't even know what the actual target is! How many rounds passed through these homes and hit others behind!!! To protect and serve.....who?
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:37:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 12:39:26 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Its kind of hard for two BATF agents to shoot that many rounds in that many different places you know. I know you all have a grudge against them, and I dont like them much myself, but they were there for the ride this time, that horde of armed men outside the house were NOT ATF AGENTS!! Blame the people who were really responsible will ya? The LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF is going to get his ass cornholed in civil court for they way his officers handled this. And I too wonder WHO it was who shot that officer, givin all the strange places the bullets were winding up. I got a feeling the Sheriffs capped their own man. Agent Kinkade is being investigated by Washington now, for claiming to be the lead agency on this when they were in fact called in by the US Marshals- normally the ATF brass like there agents to take as much credit as they can for operations but given the way this one went down, this is one association they do NOT want.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:38:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Invictus: After reading the article it sounds to me they don't even know for sure if Mr. Beck even killed the deputy, especially with a quote like this: [i]Authorities said they believe Beck shot Kuredjian from an upstairs window, although they were still gathering information about the killing. "No one saw Beck shoot Jake," said Sheriff's Lt. Carl Deeley. "People right next to him just saw him go down. There were so many shots going off; it's hard to tell where they are coming from."[/i] What are the odds we have ourselves another Lubbock fiasco here? Not that LEO's are capable of killing each other, it is obviously always the fault of the Crispy Civilian(s). rDAm
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Not only Lubbock, but there is strong evidence pointing towards friendly fire deaths of u.s. marshal keegan at ruby ridge and the 4 atf at waco.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:43:06 PM EDT
Again, I state. Moscow, Baghdad, Beruit, Serejevo, (sp?) Santa Clarita.... They are all starting to look the same.[:(]
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:52:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sodie: [b] I don't know how well [the deputies'] aim was, but they were returning fire and trying to rescue someone, so I'm sure they were hitting things during the battle." [/b]
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Anyone who's aim is this bad, should NOT be in uniform unless WalMart now requires it of their door greeters. Or maybe at McD - "You want fries with that?"
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:53:30 PM EDT
Why would the cops, local or federal, shoot at any house? Was the house shooting at them?
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 12:58:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Crookshanks: Why would the cops, local or federal, shoot at any house? Was the house shooting at them?
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Very good point! They are cops, not the US Army. They have to see who they are going to shoot. Suppressive fire is a no no. To top it off, later arriving Sheriffs units seem to have been pointed to the wrong house, so they were incompitent as well as reckless. My apologies to the local LEO's here but the LA County Sheriff seems to have really let you guys down this time. They seem to have been slacking off on their training.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 1:14:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By Crookshanks: Why would the cops, local or federal, shoot at any house? Was the house shooting at them?
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Very good point! They are cops, not the US Army. They have to see who they are going to shoot. Suppressive fire is a no no. To top it off, later arriving Sheriffs units seem to have been pointed to the wrong house, so they were incompitent as well as reckless. My apologies to the local LEO's here but the LA County Sheriff seems to have really let you guys down this time. They seem to have been slacking off on their training.
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Careful, some soccer mom will want to ban those evil "assualt houses". Yes they should only shoot at a known target, that is doing something that is, or imminently will, cause great bodily harm or death to another. On the other hand I also understand...(Patton's speech, "...goo that use to be your friends face...") Why when in a life or death struggle they "liberally" interpreted the use of force rules.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 1:19:55 PM EDT
Here are some major inconsistencies that someone on freerepublic found: [url]www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b914b524f45.htm[/url] Re: how the sheriff's deputy was shot - a very big question. CNN reported the deputy was shot as the officers were trying to get in the suspect's house. However, the L.A. Times reported the deputy was shot just after he got off his motorcycle 2 blocks from the house. Please see my post from another thread- I have reposted below: Here is a link to a more detailed report of what happened as told in the L.A. Times: Go here. ALL PLEASE REMEMBER WE ARE NOT TO REPRINT ARTICLES FROM THE L.A. TIMES HERE. Anyway - there are certain discrepancies in the L.A. Times report and the CNN report in your post #7 - regarding the incident with Mr. Beck. Here are 2 big discrepancies in the reports: 1. How/when the deputy sheriff was shot: CNN report in post #7: "When agents tried to enter the house through a window, Beck allegedly opened fire on them with an automatic weapon, striking Deputy Jake Kuredjian, 40, a 17-year veteran of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, in the face. He died later at a hospital. "During the course of his effort to apprehend this suspect, Deputy Kuredjian was shot with what we believe is one shot, and therein fatally wounded," Sheriff Lee Baca said, his voice cracking. " L.A. Times Report: (see link above) "Sheriff's Lt. Ray Peavy said Beck had spoken to his mother by telephone and to his girlfriend before she left the house, telling them he might not be leaving the house alive. With his girlfriend gone, Beck resumed shooting after yelling at the officers not to hurt his dog, Woolsey said. The marshal said Kuredjian and another deputy arrived a short time later. Kuredjian, on patrol in the area, was shot as he was getting off his motorcycle, which was parked behind a large red sport utility vehicle several houses away from Beck's home, authorities said. "Jake was one of the first ones to arrive," said Deeley. "He responded on his motorcycle. He stopped four doors east of the suspect's house. He took cover behind vehicles and was shot almost immediately after getting here, about two doors east of the house. The deputies at the scene were able to pick him up, carry him down to the end of the street, put him in a radio car and took him to the hospital." [THESE 2 ACCOUNTS DO NOT MATCH UP IN HOW/WHEN THE DEPUTY WAS SHOT. WAS HE KILLED JUST AFTER HE ARRIVED 2 HOUSES DOWN FROM THE BECK HOUSE (L.A. TIMES) OR WAS HE KILLED AS HE TRIED TO GO IN THE BECK HOUSE AFTER THE SUSPECT??? (CNN) AND WHY ISN'T THIS SIMPLE INFORMATION CONFLICTING?]
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 1:20:40 PM EDT
(continued) Here's the 2nd discrepancy - this one regarding the TEAR GAS and it as the possible cause of the fire: 2. CNN Story as posted in #7 above: "His body has not yet been located, so we're not quite sure what the cause of death will be," said Lt. Ray Peavy of the sheriff's Homicide Unit. Deputies had lobbed a couple of tear gas canisters at the home shortly before the fire broke out, but the cause of the fire remains unknown. "We don't know for sure, but we do know tear gas was introduced, and certainly that is a possibility, so we are considering that that started the fire," said Peavy. (earlier in the CNN report-#7 above- this was stated on the cause of the fire: "Authorities said they believed the suspect -- 35-year-old James Beck -- died in the fire he set on Friday after federal agents tried to serve him with a search warrant." The L.A. Times Report on this detail: The suspect and the authorities exchanged hundreds of rounds of gunfire--shattering some windows and pocking the walls of nearby homes--before sheriff's deputies blasted as many as 15 tear gas canisters into the Beck home. Top-ranking sheriff's officials ordered the tear-gas barrage, aiming it at the home's second story, after Beck allegedly shot Kuredjian from a second-floor window, a spokesman said." I am not saying anything except why these 2 huge discrepancies in these reports? or is CNN just incompetent - and trying to smooth over the story of another Waco type of incident. (I Know, I know - I am NOT defending anyone who shoots a policeman. I have the utmost respect for police officers who do their jobs well and with little financial reward. However, the ATF was involved. The U.S. Marshalls were involved. These agents were paid with MY TAXES and they are MY EMPLOYEES. I want to find out what really happened here and, at the least, the ones involved ought to be suspended pending investigation! That is what always happens (or used to) whenever a police officer shot a suspect during the line of duty. Even if it was obviously self defense - that officer was temporarily put on leave - because actually killing a suspect was such a bad thing to happen. It was to be avoided if at all possible. Why shouldn't that standard apply to Federal POLICE?) And why can't we EVER GET THE TRUTH ABOUT THESE EVENTS? right from the start? or ever?? All I care about it the truth - and true justice - and Federal "police agencies" being reined in. They are out of control. We are NOT Nazi Germany yet. In the interest of fact finding - I would like to find out the Court records of Beck's criminal convictions. Where could this be found? All I want to know is the truth. That's it. Is it so much to ask for?
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 1:33:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 1:43:56 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Imbroglio, The accounts say 1) As agents tried to enter Beck's house, Beck opened fire, the Deputy was shot. 2) The Deputy was shot shortly after arriving. You say they conflict. What if what they mean is, 3) As the agents(meaning ATF/USMS) tried to enter Beck's house, a LASO Deputy arrived and was taking up a perimeter posistion. Beck opened fire, the agents thought they were being fired on. The Deputy was found wounded after the initial shots fired. He was transported to the hospital and declared dead. Is is possible they just aren't being clear?? Yes I think the teargas set the house on fire. Yes it is a relevant question why a flamable gas delivery system was used. However if it was deployed while Beck was shooting, using potentially deadly force, then possibly the SO/ATF/USMS (whoever) fireed the gas felt that even if a fire was possible they were legally justified in deploying the gas in that manner. Remember everyone who was involved in this incident has their unique viewpoint of the incident. So there may be conflicting reports based on the vantage point of the observer. CNN or other new organizations will only get so much info from line officers anyway, would you want to do an interview if you were just involved in this?? The newsies also have their own biases.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 1:52:29 PM EDT
If I was in one of those houses that got hit, I would have returned fire. Self defense from incompetent LEO would stand up in court. That would have really confused the keystone cops, "Hmmm, now we got 2 snipers in 2 different houses".
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 2:02:19 PM EDT
They are also saying that after the Deputy was shot, Beck fired on the medevac copter. That is just low. They are saying also that Beck was not ever a DEA agent, as some have also said here. But was investigated by the DEA. Beck then complained about 2 agents and demanded access to there personnel files. Beck's house was supposedly bought by his parent's. Beck apparently didn't have a job.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 2:07:10 PM EDT
The ATF admitted the warrant was not there at the time they were trying to enter the house. Do you support those actions?
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 2:14:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 2:30:22 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Well I've seen conflicting information, I heard search warrant, based on fake LEO, at first, which wasn't there. Now I've seen a sealed warrant reffered to. If it was a "sealed warrant" I believe it could only be un-sealed as it was served, or returned to the issuing court in an sealed state. If it was a "regular" search warrant the person it was served on should have been provided a copy of it upon service, so it would have to be on scene, at least 2 copies. But the warrant wasn't served, before they could get with Beck he opened fire. He didn't make any effort to say the warrant was no good, etc, etc. All warrants are considered to be valid unless they can be proved, in court, to be defective. Arrest warrants don't have to be present for an arrest to be effected. They must be served on the person prior to jailing that person. Usually all arrest warrants say is arrest &$*#@ for (charge(s)) and bring him/her to the (jurisdiction) and take them to jail, they are to be taken before a judge as soon as possible. There are exceptions. Generally tho' whatever arguement someone comes up with won't fly, LEO's don't have the authority to decide a Judge was wrong, and LEO's know that.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 2:20:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hellraiser: If I was in one of those houses that got hit, I would have returned fire. Self defense from incompetent LEO would stand up in court. That would have really confused the keystone cops, "Hmmm, now we got 2 snipers in 2 different houses".
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LOL
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 2:51:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 3:09:25 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Hey check this out:[url]http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-000071058sep02.story[/url] More character assination by neighbors against beck, but they let slip one important thing: this neighborhood is a bedroom community for LA area LEO's! Goes a long way towards why everyone was suspicious of him. Another thing, the ATF had visited this guy a year or so ago, and he cooperated fully with them and they found no guns. Also the Fire Department beleves the LACSO's tear gas cannisters were the cause of the fire.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 3:21:02 PM EDT
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2Fcoppic%2Ejpg[/img] (start keystone cops piano theme now) Hey Clancy, which house we supposed to be shootin at ??? Ahhhh, who knows...but Don't worry sarge, we'll just shoot at all of em, just to be sure!!! and if someone complains we'll just say they were stockpiling guns or ammo or assault dogs or.... [img]www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/shootout.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 3:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2001 3:36:17 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Hey check this out:[url]http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-000071058sep02.story[/url] More character assination by neighbors against beck, but they let slip one important thing: this neighborhood is a bedroom community for LA area LEO's! Goes a long way towards why everyone was suspicious of him.
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Another thing, the ATF had visited this guy a year or so ago, and he cooperated fully with them and they found no guns.
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So?? What are you saying?? Perhaps he went off this time because he knew the jig was up. Then again if the rascals hadn't tried to serve the warrant by of all things calling him on the phone and asking him to come out. I can't believe with all the posts about "the LEO's that serve warrant should just knock on doors and talk to people..." and "SWAT is evil". That you are all so ready to fault the ATF/USMS/LASO for trying to serve a warrant in a calm low-key fashion. Of course if they had gone in with SWAT at first there probably wouldn't have been a shoot out, think about it.
Also the Fire Department beleves the LACSO's tear gas cannisters were the cause of the fire.
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And your point, I think most people here, me included, believe this to be the case. The question will be 1) why flammable gas? 2) knowing that they were deploying flamable gas were they justified in deploying it into a house that contained a person that was SHOOTING from the house.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 3:47:21 PM EDT
I think that is precisely why he went off this time. This time they caught him with guns in the house, it will be interesting to see if they were stolen, my suspicion is that they were. I think they used US Military pyro CS because it works the best. The gas spreads more thoroughy and faster. Also the 40mm M79/M203 launcher CS is far more accurate with a much greater practical range than the 37mm and 12ga systems. Becuase of the fire risk the miliatry CS isnt used with hostages, but a lone barricaded gunman would be a suitable target. The problem is always, what if the gunman cant get out becuase he is already wounded? Then we get into the question do the barracaded suspects have the same right to safety of their person as the rest of us. If he is already hurt, or is simply suicidal, and cant come out he will burn. Now in this case, since this guy is a convicted felon, caught with guns, who resisted arrest, I am not inclined to be sympathetic to him. Now back at Waco the use of such CS cannisters was criminal, since there were children in there and the FBI had already filled the housh with CS powder from Pepper Foggers. That was like lighting a match in a silo full of flour. There were women and children in there and even the people in the warrants werent convicted felons, since you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty cops are supposed to exercise greater care in arresting people they do not positively know to have prior felony convictions.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 3:59:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: I think that is precisely why he went off this time. This time they caught him with guns in the house, it will be interesting to see if they were stolen, my suspicion is that they were.
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even if they weren't he had a police badge, and was a felon. Doesn't it seem ood that he had a police badge, apparently near him, where his body was found?? Unless it was on the vest, which just leads to more questions.
I think they used US Military pyro CS because it works the best. The gas spreads more thoroughy and faster. Also the 40mm M79/M203 launcher CS is far more accurate with a much greater practical range than the 37mm and 12ga systems. Becuase of the fire risk the miliatry CS isnt used with hostages, but a lone barricaded gunman would be a suitable target.
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I just looked in a catolog, they had 12ga, 37mm and 40mm round non-pyro all listed together. I think if you build 37mm rounds you could put basically a 3mm sabot on it to load it into the 40mm shell. I wonder if CA has some rules about what can be used for teargas delivery, and perhaps non-pyro rounds weren't approved for use. (total conjecture, but CA regulates a lot of things like it does guns)
The problem is always, what if the gunman cant get out becuase he is already wounded? Then we get into the question do the barracaded suspects have the same right to safety of their person as the rest of us. If he is already hurt, or is simply suicidal, and cant come out he will burn. Now in this case, since this guy is a convicted felon, caught with guns, who resisted arrest, I am not inclined to be sympathetic to him.
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He was allegedly on the phone with the SO after the fires started. FWIW someone else posted that he may have actually thrown some of the gas rounds back out, maybe that is why the switched to pyro?? Not sure on that
Now back at Waco the use of such CS cannisters was criminal, since there were children in there and the FBI had already filled the housh with CS powder from Pepper Foggers. That was like lighting a match in a silo full of flour. There were women and children in there and even the people in the warrants werent convicted felons, since you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty cops are supposed to exercise greater care in arresting people they do not positively know to have prior felony convictions.
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Never understood that assualt, probably never will. Why they couldn't just quietly wait that group out, is beyond me.
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