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Posted: 8/31/2001 10:47:14 AM EST
It was just reported that the search warrant for the guy in Santa Clarita was part of an investigation of people "stockpiling weapons".
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 10:51:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 10:56:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 10:57:55 AM EST
what constitutes a "stockpile" anyways?
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:03:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2001 11:03:39 AM EST by ar50troll]
Originally Posted By MIerinMD: what constitutes a "stockpile" anyways?
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Yeah, good question. I have a feeling that we both know the answer as far as the media is concerned! And we both probably fit their stupid mold as "Stockpilers". How silly. So my kids are stockpiling Pokemon cards I guess huh? When will the media let go of this shit? It has nothing to do with the firearm. The damn anti's want to demonize the gun. There has never in the history of firearms been an GUN ACCIDENT. There has been plenty of gun negligence. But never, ever has a gun loaded itself, then pointed itself at a human being and shot. It taks a human to intervene.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:06:58 AM EST
Oh men! I'm in deep @#$%!!! I have a huge collection of firearms. Does that make me a criminal??
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:07:53 AM EST
I knew I had brought my wife over to the dark side one night when we were watching the TV news and they reported something about a guy holed up with a couple of guns and "more than a hundred rounds of ammunition." She turned to me and rolled her eyes, "A hundred rounds? That's all?" [sniff].....it warmed my frickin' heart, man. I'm tellin' ya....[sniff] Freedom isn't free Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. [img]http://www.inetnow.net/~kudzukid/enlemblem.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:10:27 AM EST
Seems like everything here in PRK is a crime. I love the location, but I hate the laws here. I've lived here most of my life but I guess I'll have to move out of PRK someday. Larry
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:11:32 AM EST
The only thing I got two of is my Ak-47s. I just got one of everything else. That's not a stockpile is it. Where do I get a collectors license for ammo??? :)
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:22:59 AM EST
Randy Weaver was tried here in Boise and I drove across town and paid $.50 per page for the indicment. His most wicked weapon was a mini-14. He had a few bolt guns and a Daisy AiR-17 (it was shown in the news footage but not mentioned in the list). It was then at the age of 17 I realized that the standard collection of .22 rifle, shotgun, deer rifle and carry pistol X the number of men in the house was more than enough to convince the average sucker (soccer east of the Mississipppi) mom that a warmonger was justly arrested. Damn the mush heads that believe the media. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:24:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:49:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2001 11:51:00 AM EST by mpthole]
The person in question was allegedly impersonating a US Marshal/LEO of some sort. There's a story on it over on the Fox News website. Stockpile!?!? I'll bet half the serious contributors to this board have a bigger "stockpile" than this guy. [b]Jarhead_22:[/b] Congratulations man! I'd love for my GF to have the same response. [:)]
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:51:42 AM EST
Watch out Imbroglio, two bricks of .22lr means you will have a cache of ammunition. You better only keep a small box of cb caps locked in strong box kept in your safe.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:55:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I'm anxious to see how it is spun. Collect guns = burned alive. GRRRRR!!!
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It just was. 1) Impersonate a LEO - accusation, not charged or convicted. 2) Judge finds there is PC for a search warrant of the suspects home. 3) SO and ATF attempt to serve lawful warrant 4) Warrants ARE mentioned in the US Constitution. 5) Subject shoots, kills Deputy. 6) Subject shoots, wounds ATF agent. 7) Subject fires off multiple rounds, that miss, including at News helicopters. 8) Subjects house catches on fire. If HE decides to stay in a burning house, the HE is responsible for HIS actions. When he ressisteda warrant service his actions were clearly against the lawful, Constitutional actions of the governmemt of the US and the State of California. Anyone else remember something about a Gov't of the people, by the people, for the people?? HE decided that HE was more important the the rules of society. HE is responsible for his choices.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 11:59:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I'm anxious to see how it is spun. Collect guns = burned alive. GRRRRR!!!
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It just was. 1) Impersonate a LEO - accusation, not charged or convicted. 2) Judge finds there is PC for a search warrant of the suspects home. 3) SO and ATF attempt to serve lawful warrant 4) Warrants ARE mentioned in the US Constitution. 5) Subject shoots, kills Deputy. 6) Subject shoots, wounds ATF agent. 7) Subject fires off multiple rounds, that miss, including at News helicopters. 8) Subjects house catches on fire. If HE decides to stay in a burning house, the HE is responsible for HIS actions. When he ressisteda warrant service his actions were clearly against the lawful, Constitutional actions of the governmemt of the US and the State of California. Anyone else remember something about a Gov't of the people, by the people, for the people?? HE decided that HE was more important the the rules of society. HE is responsible for his choices.
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AMEN
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:00:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:05:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I guess the government is becoming much more "efficient." The whole sordid mess is easier to manage if you burn the citizens out the same day rather than waiting 51 days. [:(!]
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Who started the fire?? What is your PROOF of the identity of the fire starter??
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:10:28 PM EST
If you have ONE of everything, is that considered "stockpiling"?............[dracula]
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:11:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I'm anxious to see how it is spun. Collect guns = burned alive. GRRRRR!!!
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It just was. 1) Impersonate a LEO - accusation, not charged or convicted. 2) Judge finds there is PC for a search warrant of the suspects home. 3) SO and ATF attempt to serve lawful warrant 4) Warrants ARE mentioned in the US Constitution. 5) Subject shoots, kills Deputy. 6) Subject shoots, wounds ATF agent. 7) Subject fires off multiple rounds, that miss, including at News helicopters. 8) Subjects house catches on fire. If HE decides to stay in a burning house, the HE is responsible for HIS actions. When he ressisteda warrant service his actions were clearly against the lawful, Constitutional actions of the governmemt of the US and the State of California. Anyone else remember something about a Gov't of the people, by the people, for the people?? HE decided that HE was more important the the rules of society. HE is responsible for his choices.
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So, by your logic, the residents of Lexington and Concorde should have submitted to the lawful authority of King Georges red-coated representatives and allowed their personal firearms to be confiscated? Look, I understand your point, but I am actually fascinated by the response this incident is engendering. People are automatically assuming that the shooter was a "freedom fighter" for attacking the JBTs, rather than some nut-case (which he might well have been). And the amazing thing is that we're seeing this reaction in some people who are not gun owners! Perhaps this means the public is finally beginning to develop a healthy distrust of government and its officials! We're even beginning to seriously mistrust our "news" outlets! Halleluja! Perhaps there's hope after all. Maybe we CAN prevent armed revolt by convincing enough people that the government CAN'T be trusted, and [i]must[/i] be watched like a hawk lest it wrest our rights from us without a whimper.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:14:13 PM EST
HE was an ARCADIA POLICE OFFICER and deserves the support of all law enforcement.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:21:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2001 12:23:43 PM EST by OLY-M4gery]
I believe there is a difference between one person "standing up" against whatever, and what the Patriots did. 1 person "standing up" often is nothing more than 1 guy thinking he doesn't have to live by societies rules, because he is better or whatever. The Patriots felt that as English citizens they were being discriminated against compared to English citizens in Britian. They had representatives in England that did not represent them, which is unfair. The tried to resolve their differnces lawfully and were not even heard. Many Patriots were "big men" in Colonial America. George Washington was a Colonel during the French and Indian wars. Others held posts in colonial government. That is much different than what we have here. I never said I had any trust for the ATF. But distrusting and organization and killing someone are 2 different things. We have a representative government, to distrust it is to partially distrust ourselves. Part of the problem is that people don't have enough acces to their government, that fosters mistrust both ways, and that is very bad.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:40:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: HE was an ARCADIA POLICE OFFICER and deserves the support of all law enforcement.
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Imbrog has a good point. Here is a guy that isn't your normal "redneck, psychopathic conpiracy theorist". He was an upper class, middle aged POLICE OFFICER. Maybe the sheeple will learn something from this. A man well set in his american dream sacrificed everything for his rights (so I'm assuming). WHAT A DAMN GOOD START! Either that, or a step closer to the end....
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:43:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By mpthole: Stockpile!?!? I'll bet half the serious contributors to this board have a bigger "stockpile" than this guy.
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(More than one, of course) You won't get any bet from me. I [b]know[/b] that most of us own more than whatever melted "full auto" assault props the ATF comes up with this time. [i]BTW, anyone know the BATF's phone number? I know someone who has a 10/22 [b]AND[/b] a .38! (There is still a reward for good little nazis, right?)[/i]
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:48:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By MIerinMD: what constitutes a "stockpile" anyways?
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If you're ever in the neighborhood, drop by and I'll show you. [:D]
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:24:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:28:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2001 1:30:34 PM EST by KBaker]
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: I believe there is a difference between one person "standing up" against whatever, and what the Patriots did. 1 person "standing up" often is nothing more than 1 guy thinking he doesn't have to live by societies rules, because he is better or whatever.
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Yes. It's the [i]number[/i] of people. What you're seeing in here is a [i]number[/i] of people, rightly or wrongly, condoning this mans actions.
The Patriots felt that as English citizens they were being discriminated against compared to English citizens in Britian. They had representatives in England that did not represent them, which is unfair. The tried to resolve their differnces lawfully and were not even heard. Many Patriots were "big men" in Colonial America. George Washington was a Colonel during the French and Indian wars. Others held posts in colonial government. That is much different than what we have here.
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Well, what we have here are gun owners who are supposed to be protected by the supreme law of the land, the Constitution, and by their elected representatives who swore to uphold that Constitution. Instead we have watched for decades as our right to keep and bear arms has been slowly stripped from us - in violation of the law. In other words, we're being discriminated against and not represented by the people we elect to represent us.
I never said I had any trust for the ATF. But distrusting and organization and killing someone are 2 different things.
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Granted. But nothing else seems to have gotten their attention. Perhaps this will. If the BATF continues to abuse its power, you're bound to see more of the same.
We have a representative government, to distrust it is to partially distrust ourselves. Part of the problem is that people don't have enough acces to their government, that fosters mistrust both ways, and that is very bad.
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By all means we should distrust those we put into positions of power. Anyone who is willing to run for elected office should be viewed with a gimlet eye. History has proven beyond a doubt that power corrupts. The thing that amazes historians about George Washington is not what he accomplished, but [i]what he resisted doing[/i] once he was given power. [b]NOT[/b] becoming a Napoleon when given the opportunity was unprecedented, and I think it remains unrepeated. Mistrust of government is [i]not[/i] "very bad" - it's [red]very necessary[/red] to the healthy operation of a republican form of government, so long as that mistrust does not become excessive. Without the active participation of the governed, those in charge tend to accumulate more and more power to which they are not entitled. We've been complacent for far too long. As a result, I fully expect the suspicion to swing all the way to paranoia - and that [b]will[/b] be a bad thing.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:30:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:30:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I guess the government is becoming much more "efficient." The whole sordid mess is easier to manage if you burn the citizens out the same day rather than waiting 51 days. [:(!]
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Who started the fire?? What is your PROOF of the identity of the fire starter??
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There is another thread with a post stating he saw video clearing showing the grenades going in and exploding with a red flash and immediately thereafter fire erupted. Now tell me, is a guy going to use deadly force to try to save his life, then end it by lighting his house on fire? Use your head. He could off himself with a bullet. Fire is no fun. Why were the firefighters hosing down the neighbors' houses and letting his burn, under order of the LEO's on the scene? I can't think of too many legitimate reasons. You take whatever side you want, and I'll choose the side I wish to fight on. Give me liberty.
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Ok??? I like the last line, but when have I ever run from a debate?? There's more of this converstion over on the "main" thread about it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:31:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:41:59 PM EST
KBaker, there is a difference between being vigilant about the practices of government and being distrustful. I am all for "open" government, and a vigilant citizenry. Our government entities are part of a representative government, unlike other places. So if we can't trust our government, it is kind of like not trusting ourselves. That is not healthy. All I meant was an open government, watched by a vigilant citizenry, and of the people is the goal. If the people distrust the government we are only hurting ourselves because the the people require the government, and the government is derived from the people.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:49:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: I believe there is a difference between one person "standing up" against whatever, and what the Patriots did. 1 person "standing up" often is nothing more than 1 guy thinking he doesn't have to live by societies rules, because he is better or whatever.
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What really was the difference? The patriots stood up because the redcoats came to take [i]their[/i] guns away, so [i]they[/i] stood up. 1 guy standing up could just mean the state's gotten smart enough to go after individuals instead of groups. The latter is far more dangerous, because we all have to make the decision for ourselves what the breaking point is. Easier to inflame one than 50.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 1:57:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: KBaker, there is a difference between being vigilant about the practices of government and being distrustful. I am all for "open" government, and a vigilant citizenry. Our government entities are part of a representative government, unlike other places. So if we can't trust our government, it is kind of like not trusting ourselves. That is not healthy. All I meant was an open government, watched by a vigilant citizenry, and of the people is the goal. If the people distrust the government we are only hurting ourselves because the the people require the government, and the government is derived from the people.
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Excuse me? If you trust the people in government, then why the need for "vigilance"? Why not kick back, relax, crack open a beer and let our elected representatives do what we elected them to do without any concern that they just might not bother to? Do you think that the people who gravitate towards high positions in government do so out of an altruistic need to help their fellow man? Granted, one or two might (and that type generally makes lousy neighbors) but the majority do not. They get into government for the power. I've read that you're an LEO. If that is true, and you've spent any time on the street, how far do you trust your fellow man (those not in uniform)? Why should we think that those who fill our elected offices are any better than Joe Average on the street? Clinton, Condit, Byrd et. al. certainly prove that getting elected doesn't mean you're morally superior. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that government is a necessary evil, best kept small and watched closely. (By its very existence, government makes an "us versus them" situation, you can't help it.) So far, we've done neither, the main reason being that our elected officials were "of the people", and we felt safe in electing them. Surely they'd never do anything detrimental? Now it is coming back to haunt us. Waxman wants to ban .50 caliber rifles because they can be used to shoot through armored limosines. Just who rides around in armored limosines? Let's get this straight - I [red]want[/red] my elected officials to think about what will happen if they stray too far, and I [red]want[/red] law enforcement officials to think about what will happen if they try to enforce unconstitutional laws.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:04:06 PM EST
Thank you for playing, but you are wrong. The British trying to take weapons away was not the cause of the Revolutionary War. Rememeber something about "taxation without representation". The matter was that England had different rules for English subjects according to where they lived. The colonist also had NO representation in Parliament. This was patently unfair, they were taxed more heavily than English Subjects in Britian, but received no representation and were felt to have fewer rights than "Britains". 1 pesron "going off" is a nut job, or a criminal. The most common defense by criminals is something like "I ain't gotta follow your rules". If as a society the people decide that their rights are being violated, and they try to work peacefully to address the issue without success, and many members of a comunity fell they must reform the gov't by force if neccessary........ Yeah going after 1 guy..... We have a criminal justice system that lists the righta and responsibilities of the prosecution and defendant, and has a multi-layer appeals process. The US government is known for terminating entire communities that it doesn't like. Stop the paranoid rambling
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:16:52 PM EST
By distrust I meant that the Gov't would have to prove every act/statement it was responsible for was legal/truthful. By vigilance I meant that you watch the government from budget to policy issues. You vote, and know who represents you and how they act. Government meeting should be open, and at least on the State and National level televised, just so you can take a listen. And when I hear those, "##### does a good job for us, I don't care about his personal life", I go cold. Think how you would feel if everything you did or said was judged not trustworthy until verified, that would really destroy productivity. Oversight and distrust are different. Yes if they do stuff they should be punished. But it always amazes me how many times some home town guy gets involved in the goofiest scams and no one there believes he could do anything wrong.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:24:17 PM EST
With "friends" like Oly-M4GERY we don't need enemies! Granted we don't know all the facts, but we can speculate on what we do know: The ATF was involved. That pretty much answers all we need to know. They never get a search warrant correct. This guy could be fully justified for killing the officer. If he was attempting to serve and unconstitutional search warrent(such as the reasons for issuance clearly violating the constitution), then while killing the officer may not have been prudent, it was justified. It is self-defense. When an official of the gov't is violating or attempting to violate your rights, it is not only your right, but your DUTY to stop such violations. And if he followed the going-ons of our gov't, he knew that most likely he would have been killed, or screwed by the justice system and locked up any way. Maybe this was his only choice. I would have made the same decision. Oh, I also believe there is a court case saying that the killing of an official of the gov't is justified when they are violating or attempting to violate your rights, but I do not know if that is true or not, so take it with a grain of salt. And, just because one guy went off, doesn't make him a nut.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:29:16 PM EST
Right on, liberty.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:29:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By libertyof76: With "friends" like Oly-M4GERY we don't need enemies! Granted we don't know all the facts, but we can speculate on what we do know: The ATF was involved. That pretty much answers all we need to know. They never get a search warrant correct. This guy could be fully justified for killing the officer. If he was attempting to serve and unconstitutional search warrent(such as the reasons for issuance clearly violating the constitution), then while killing the officer may not have been prudent, it was justified. It is self-defense. When an official of the gov't is violating or attempting to violate your rights, it is not only your right, but your DUTY to stop such violations. And if he followed the going-ons of our gov't, he knew that most likely he would have been killed, or screwed by the justice system and locked up any way. Maybe this was his only choice. I would have made the same decision. Oh, I also believe there is a court case saying that the killing of an official of the gov't is justified when they are violating or attempting to violate your rights, but I do not know if that is true or not, so take it with a grain of salt. And, just because one guy went off, doesn't make him a nut.
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Press the button the nurse forgot to give you your meds.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:31:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:33:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By libertyof76: And, just because one guy went off, doesn't make him a nut.
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Right, it makes him a roasted nut--[b]NO[/b] humor intended. This shit is getting old.[:(!]
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I agree, I'm gonna go shoot see ya (here) Sunday
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:33:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:35:44 PM EST
Neil Cavuto on FOX pinned-down the deputies he was interviewing about that "stockpiling" BS. The first deputy beat around the bush stating it depends on his intentions and crap like that. He refused to state if it was legal to “stockpile” or not. Cavuto persisted, but could not get a straight answer out of the guy. So, Cavuto asked the second deputy, and this guy came out right away and said there is nothing illegal about “stockpiling” weapons. I was impressed with Cavuto because he would not drop the question and persisted until he got a straight answer.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 2:48:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: 1 pesron "going off" is a nut job, or a criminal... If as a society the people decide that their rights are being violated, and they try to work peacefully to address the issue without success, and many members of a comunity fell they must reform the gov't by force if neccessary........ We have a criminal justice system that lists the righta and responsibilities of the prosecution and defendant, and has a multi-layer appeals process. The US government is known for terminating entire communities that it doesn't like.
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OLY M4 gery You seem to be the one person going off here. Does that make you a nutcase? While you were brushing up on your liberal handbook, you may have missed the fact that people have been trying to peaceably workout the issues about gun control. We’re coming to the last stages of that process. The Gov. and the liberals that prop it up are not interested in the fact that that the RKBA shall not be infringed(period) The criminal justice system in conveniently used to promote whatever Liberal idea is in fashion today. Obviously that doesn’t matter, because it is backed by some unconstitutional law, so that makes it alright by you. You are correct in your last statement however. The Gov. does terminate communities that it doesn’t like. Take for instance Waco. Of course those people were nut cases who deserved to die. Especially those criminal children. Go back to your Liberal handbook and read the chapter on minimizing the facts when talking to a conservative.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 3:02:58 PM EST
OLY will understand when the government says he can't have his M4gery anymore, for our safety you understand, and for the sake of our children. Then again he may hand over his AR-15 as many of the sheep will.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 3:07:41 PM EST
Don't worry, lads, we can depend on the BATF to interpret the meaning of "stockpiling" for each of us on an individual basis..
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 4:54:44 PM EST
Hellraiser, He will turn his guns in, because its the law, and when the time comes he will give up every freedom he has, because it the law. He beleives that being a Lib. will grant him certain privlages, and as each freedom is taken he will find solace in those coming privlages.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 5:01:07 PM EST
Hell, I thought everyone new that!
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 5:44:34 PM EST
Keep in ming that if Oly is a LEO he won't have to turn in his AR15, just us untrustworth civilians will. sgtar15
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 6:04:52 PM EST
I'm sure you boys will correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read it, the suspect was NOT an Arcadia police officer- he used to be one, but didn't make probation. He has several criminal convictions already, one for burglary and one for impersonating an officer. Now, the current investigation is for him allegedly impersonating a U.S. Marshal and stockpiling guns. If this is true, it's a far different scenario than joe citizen 'stockpiling guns'. There have been more than a few cases of guys who didn't make it as cops (or who couldn't get hired at all) continuing to represent themselves as officers for various reasons, some of which include rape and assault of women they 'pull over' for alleged traffic violations. Lots of these guys are mentally unstable and dangerous. We have them where I'm at, and I've dealt with them. Not only that, but this guy already had felony convictions, which means that his owning any firearms, let alone 'stockpiling' them, is a felony. I think some of you are jumping to conclusions that this is an otherwise innocent man who has been targeted by the government just because he is a gunowner. I'd wait for all the facts to come out before I started screaming 'Waco' again. Not that Imbroglio's well-considered, fact-filled title to this thread didn't encourage jumping to conclusions.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 6:33:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 9:27:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By MIerinMD: what constitutes a "stockpile" anyways?
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More than one gun and more than 50 "bullets" is the general drift that I get from the local talking head on the tube in L.A. Calif.
Link Posted: 9/1/2001 6:01:01 AM EST
I am glad I moved my stockpile from PRK to Montana this year, actually I think I may qualify as an armory not a stockpile. BTW; I heard on the radio up here that he had been arrested 3 times for C3 violations and he beat ATF every time in court. Grudge maybe?
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