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Posted: 8/29/2001 5:53:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 7:58:38 PM EDT by libertyof76]
(NOTE: Please read the WHOLE thread, and ALL of my replies, because I may have modified what I said here later on in another post) After some discussion in the chat room with Kharn, Stubbs, and a few others, we got angry about the current gun laws. One guy brought up filing a lawsuit. Kharn said it is $250 to file one in federal court alleging violation of civil rights. Well, none of us exactly have much money to spare(due to taxation), so we thought that we would start a fund that ar15.com'ers could donate to, to allow filing of the law. We also discussed that a lawyer would cost way to much, so I'll be representing myself. I first one to see what people here think about this, and to see who would donate before I proceed. This will be all on my on time, and I will not take a cent of the money. It will all go to court costs. EDITED to add: I am going to investigate getting a lawyer, no promises though.
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 6:11:17 PM EDT
I think this is a great idea. If you go ahead with this I would be glad to donate what I could. Just curious, but do you have experience in the courts?
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 6:38:47 PM EDT
Update: antiUSSA suggesting getting in contact with SteveinVA, since he is a lawyer. I am not one, but there are lots of cases of people representing themselves successfully. But, a lawyer would make things much easier, but possibly more expensive as well. I'll post more info when I get it.
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 10:52:18 PM EDT
I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but isn't this what we pay the NRA for? THEY have the attorneys after all. Good luck either way guys. JDP
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 12:52:21 AM EDT
I feel I *REALLY* need to repond to this!! I made a similar suggestion on a thread on the old board. ....And I was................. Well, I don't know just exactly how to tell you how I felt but I was ready to just leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E-L-Y This has two parts, read them both: First, I think it is reasonable to do this. Think of it this way money is cheaper than blood. Right or wrong??? Yes, we have the NRA nad the GOA and the this and the that and the other but so what!!!! Do anti's quit filing law suits - NO!!! Do anti's stop forming this group and that group and antother group, do they say well we have HCI -%$^&# NO!!!! and they keep filing stupid lawsuit after stupid lawsuit anfter stupid lawsuit after stupid lawsuit after stupid lawsuit and law after law after law..... AD NAUSEM!!!!!!!!!!! Would it really hurt any to counter their lawsuits??? Would it really hurt to defend our rights in court??? How else can we do so, YES maybe YOU (not directed to anyone) are tired of hearing about it, the armchair lawyers so to speak. No ones is professing to be a lawyer just trying to find a reasonable response to an attack. An attack on our rights and our sensibilities as well. May we can fight their fire with our fire, etc... What does it really hurt??? If you don't want to you don't have to...do just what you please. If that means nothing then do that!!!! Just don't complain about those who want to do something, even if its not an absolute resolve. At least its an effort........ I meant to say two things here but kinda combined them both into my statements. I'm just pissed off in a way... I think this is a good suggest and hope to help but I made the same suggestion some time ago and was met with a response that really just made me want to quit. At the time I was just disgusted and asked my self why continue...why not just "turn 'em in"....move to a nice backward country where the lines are drawn and the enemies are clear. One where we are not our own worst enemies. I thought who could we just be so negative about any effort even if it may seem futile. Its better than nothing at all. That was a while ago and i've thought long and hard since then.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 1:51:54 AM EDT
Like I said:
Good luck either way guys. JDP
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Link Posted: 8/30/2001 3:02:36 AM EDT
I am in for some cash.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 3:03:36 AM EDT
Sounds like a wonderful idea to me and I have the best place to start: File an appeal of UNITED STATES vs MILLER, March 30, 1939 case in the Supreme Court. Anyone who has read pages 31-49 of "Unintended Consequences" and then taken the time to go down to their local Law library and paid 20 bucks to a law student to look up and pull the pertinent rulings (because nobody but a lawyer or lawyer wanna-be kind find squat in a law library) , should realize that Judge Heartsill Ragon of the Western District of Arkansas, Fort Smith Division pretty well proved that (page 44, 2nd paragraph from the bottom) "The Nation Firearms Act is garbage. Completely unconstitutional. Why not undo the whole mess from the beginning of the first lies, both to "the people" and to the Supreme Court justices at the time, whom were too stupid apparently to read the transcripts of the original US vs MILLER trial. I may not be a lawyer, but a misrepresentation such as occurred by Gordon Dean (lying Federal Prosecutor, and we wonder now days why it's all they know how to do consistently) to the Supremes warrants an appeal to reverse the Supremes reversal of Judge Ragons' ruling. I am to this day in complete agreement w/ Judge Ragons' original decision and firmly believe: (page 47, 1st paragraph) "The Second Ammendment is a recognition of the danger of standing armys. It's purpose is to recognize that every citizen has the right to keep and bear the same type of basic arms as a soldier in a modern military. A militia embodies all able-bodied men over the age of sixteen. Therefore, a militia will always outnumber a standing army by at least twenty to one. If this militia is armed with weapons similar to those used by the individuals comprising the standing army, it will be impossible for that standing army to inflict the will of a tyrannical government upon the people. The Second Ammendment is the guarantee behind all the other articles in the Bill of Rights. It is the ultimate guarantee that citizens in the United States will remain free." {Portions of "Unintended Consequences" re-printed with the personal permission of John Ross.} enough said! Mike
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 3:42:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2001 3:42:32 AM EDT by misterhemi]
Originally Posted By JDP: Like I said:
Good luck either way guys. JDP
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After re-reading my post I thought I should say again don't feel that this is directed toward you or anyone else. When i read the topic and the first post it just reminded me of what happened and also brought back a bit of anger from the incident....... Count me in too!!!!
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 10:41:59 AM EDT
1) where do i send the check? 2) doesn't the NRA provide lawyers for its members? i thought i read that about criminal cases anyway, it's worth looking into. 3) we need a catchy acronym for the fund, like "FFL" Fund For Liberty! [;)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 10:56:01 AM EDT
I will definately be glad to donate what I can. I also agree with fattym4 that it may be worth while to get ahold of the NRA, GOA,....etc to try to get some help since that is what they are being paid money for in the first place. It can't hurt..in the end all they can do is say no. In my opinion also if one of these groups were to say no it should make us all think very stronly about why we support them if the are not here to support their own membership. My $.25. Anyway.. I am in..just keep coming with the details.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 11:14:29 AM EDT
This is one case the NRA will never go near. The NRA likes what we have now (they have to they keep writing these laws). They do not, under any circumstance want miller overturned. Their reason for being(now) would dissappear overnight. Nope, don't count on the NRA for anything but roadblocks on this one.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 11:15:16 AM EDT
Update: SteveinVA replied he'll look into it, but that he didn't know about federal lawsuits, and also he couldn't do it pro bono(free of charge unless we won). So I'll have to go represent myself. JDP- Yes, they have attorneys, but they never seem to take offensive action, just defensive. But I'll contact them either way. misterhemi-I know what you mean. Everybody always seems to put down any idea which suggests taking offensive action. Mr_Wilson-Exactly! That's what we were thinking, and I'm glad you brought it up, since I forgot to put it in my original post. fattyM4: 1) Don't know yet. I'm working on it though. 2) Good point. I'll be sending each of them a letter 3) Hmmm, I'll come up with something [:)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 11:32:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2001 12:47:20 PM EDT by GWF]
I don't think the N.R.A. would be much help, but the Citizen's Committee for the right to Keep and Bear Arms might be helpful.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 12:51:56 PM EDT
Wow, liberty. Good job on the work so far. This is something we need to get to work, guys. Someone, if not all of us, needs to contact NRA and GOA to see what they'll opt for. Heilo may be right, but it is worth a try. I am sick of sitting idle, how aboot you? --[i]how much should I send, liberty, without looking cheap??[/i][:)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 3:12:35 PM EDT
My thoughts: 1. The NRA, etc. are self-patronizing institutions interested in raising money and patting themselves on the back for compromising our rights away. That is why they will support a bill that might help hunters, but will let the government seize your land. Do they help-yes, are they part of the solution-No. 2. The NRA, etc. will NEVER directly challenge gun laws in court using our First Amendment freedoms as a basis for defending our Second Amendment freedoms. It is against their best interest (see #1) to do so. 3. The government has a vested interest in retaining control of the population, so they will fight hard to keep these laws. Do not expect any "friend of the court" briefs from the government. By keeping the population under control, they can control what you are ALLOWED to think, control the "trouble makers" that would question them, tax you past the breaking point and then take what you own if you can't pay. They have been able to do this for long that the vice of total control has now become accepted practice. 4. The anti's and sheeple would gladly give up all control over their life and ours for the security of socialism and political correctness. The gun laws are not really about the guns, but about controlling the few left that would question the establishment AND have the nads to back it up if pushed too far. 5. At my age I have decided that the anti-gun laws are illegal and as such they must be ignored by right-thinking and honest citizens. They can pass all of the laws that they want, I do not intend to turn in any of my firearms. Do I want to go to jail-No, do I want the government coming through my front door-No, but it is no longer about the children or the firearms, it is about who will control the rest of my life. 6. I have written all of the so-called pro-gun organizations and begged that they combine forces and go after the illegal laws that violate our Second Amendment rights. They still want to win partial and meaningless victories so that they can keep the money rolling in. THAT BEING SAID, I will gladly offer financial support for a full frontal assault on the illegal laws that hinder our Constitutional rights. It would hopefully be easier to reinstate Freedom from the courts, rather than the streets.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 4:04:58 PM EDT
JPFO would also be a very good group to get in touch with on this!
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 5:31:51 PM EDT
[b]Don't forget, place this topic on every gun board you know. Even the 22 rimfire boards. We are all in this together. Make sure you refer this link on each site, so this can be the HQ of information. Spread the word!!![/b]
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 8:06:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2001 8:09:56 PM EDT by libertyof76]
Ok. I need a list of all the guns boards, so I can post to them. Start posting links here. When the weekend gets here, I'm going to start researching on how to file a lawsuit. After I get what I need to know, I'll start to prepare the document, which I'll post a link to here so you guys can read over it and give me suggestions and corrections. I'm also going to write to the gun organizations, to see what they if they will contribute and what (money/attorneys/publicity). I'll write to the NRA, GOA, SAF, CCRKBA, JPFO. Any others I should contact? Edited to correct some spelling and add: I'm also going to ready a website with the information as well.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 11:50:16 PM EDT
This public servant don't get paid much, But by goodness - COUNT ME IN!!!!!!!!! Just let us know when and how.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 8:05:44 AM EDT
Now we're thinking like the enemy. Great idea!!! I will help post as well, let's get this seriously going.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 9:45:01 AM EDT
Count me in!! Would it be more effective to file some sort of class action suit? If there is some additional way I can help, I would love to. Just wondering if it would be more effective to have multiple plaintiffs. Also, I'll start with US v Miller, but if anyone has some additional cases to study please let me know. Has anybody ever tried this offensively (as in Miller v US)?
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:08:24 PM EDT
After the ATF torching another place today, we denfinately have to push forward on this. Let us know where to send funds. Either paypal or money order.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:30:35 PM EDT
Yes, we need some contact info.
Link Posted: 8/31/2001 12:53:04 PM EDT
when has the NRA actually filed a lawsuit against the gov't? I'm a member, and I give them money once a year, and mail in the postcards they send me to send to various people, but they don't seem to be trying all that hard. I might be in for a donation
Originally Posted By JDP: I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but isn't this what we pay the NRA for? THEY have the attorneys after all. Good luck either way guys. JDP
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Link Posted: 8/31/2001 9:55:25 PM EDT
I seriously think it would be a grave error to attempt anything of the sort without a lawer. Your talking about going into a court and trying to argue law with people who do this stuff everyday. I realize that it isn't cost effective, but it is wiser to be broke and win than enter a legal battle ill prepared. If you want a serious chance of doing any good I think a lawer is a must. I'm in for $$$ if you can commit to going at it with a sound approach. I'm not trying to be the voice of negativity, just reason. If it took an extra year to raise the money to do it right, it would be well worth the wait. Just my opinion of course.
Link Posted: 9/1/2001 1:23:49 PM EDT
Update: Temporary name for the fund will be "Second Amendment Legal Defense Fund". Also, Monday I am going to stop by the back and open up a checking account for the fund's money. hatebreed-I am going to explore getting a lawyer, it really depends on how much one would cost, how much money I collect, and whether I can get any help from the gun organizations.
Link Posted: 9/1/2001 7:04:54 PM EDT
sounds good.
Link Posted: 9/1/2001 7:28:51 PM EDT
put up a flyer at local ranges and gun clubs, maybe you'll get lucky and a lawyer who owns guns will see it and take the case for free or for a reduced fee
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 10:11:14 AM EDT
[url]http://members.aol.com/BaltimoreLaw/secondamendment.html[/url] Here's a start, get reading. [:)] It's expensive and better fought with lawyers. the 1934 group has taken on the .gov over the CLEO signature requirement and have been trying to raise thousands of dollars. If you find their webpage, they have it all typed out.
Link Posted: 9/2/2001 4:14:34 PM EDT
Can you say CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT. That's where the money is and you can bet your ass it'll make the courts, government, and liberals take notice. Add all the anti-gun groups as defendants as well. After all they are doing everything they can to infringe upon our constitutional rights. Be a good dose of their own medicine-liberals are doing it all the time. Damn, makes me wish I was a lawyer. CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT, CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT, CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT, CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT! Yes, I will contribute, by the way. If attorneys are involved it will get very expensive. However, if everyone on this and other gun boards contributed....
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 8:28:35 PM EDT
Great idea and I will donate. Why not first sue Califor... oh never mind [:D] Lawyers would be a BIG plus, since the gov will show up with dozens.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 11:13:14 AM EDT
I'm in! Using their own tactics against them should have some impact. They've been somewhat successful and their arguements aren't even legally supported! The ACLU (American CERTAIN Liberties Union) has been very successful in defeating every rights violation except gun control. Everyone here is right - the problem is that, be it for financial security or warped leftist (socialist) views, nobody ever really goes after the government on the gun rights issue. It's a huge void in our defenses that needs desperately to be addressed. I hope that you can raise the $$$$ to get it done right!
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 12:17:03 PM EDT
Update: To open up a bank account for the fund I need to create a non-profit organization, which includes filing papers with the state and federal governments. Which entails more money. I could have you send in to my account, but I'm afraid that people might think I am using the money for other purposes. What do you think? Should I start taking money into my personal bank account so I can get the money to start up the npo? Would that be ok with you guys? If you can accept that you can send money by sending it to libertyof76@supernet.com. Send me an email if you do so I know.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 2:15:29 PM EDT
Thats a paypal account, right?
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 7:09:13 PM EDT
Chaingun has a good idea. Add every state, city that has restricted firearm ownership. Some attorneys will likely gladly take this case for a piece of the action. Randy Weaver's attorney might be a useful contact. He may have some other ideas if he cannot or will not get involved. Don't have a paypal acount. Will need other payment method-personal check? Only want to be named as a plaintiff. The more the merrier if you know what I mean.
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 8:36:03 PM EDT
Hielo- Whoops! Sorry! Yep that's a paypal address. Check can be made out to: Matthew Butch 1322 Shreiner Rd. Apt B201 Lancaster, PA
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 3:00:56 AM EDT
Libertyof76, I have a few auctions going on right now, and I will direct teh proceeds into your acocunt, all told, it will be in the $300-400.00 range. Let me know what else I can do.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 6:44:05 AM EDT
hey matt, like i said in my last e-mail, i have no problem sending you a check directly, but my accountant will need a reciept. [:)] BTW, can you try to create the npo as a charitable entity? i believe it's a 501C3 filing, that way all donations will be tax-deductable! [}:D] ...and damn, hielo, trying to make the rest of us look cheap??? [;)]
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 7:14:33 AM EDT
Nope, doing what I can. Hope everyone else reaches deep and does the same.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 7:37:26 AM EDT
yeah, it's one of those things, if we could get just $5.00 from everyone on AR15.COM... i also think going to other boards is a great idea. how about going to the NRA et al. and asking them directly for a contribution? or do they only [i]take[/i] them?
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 7:46:27 AM EDT
I really don't think this is somethign the NRA would be at all interested in. After all, if we are successful here, there would be very little need for the NRA of today, wouldn't there? I mean, they might be able to continue to write legislation limiting things for us, but I really don't need to pay for that privilege. It is us or nothing.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 8:22:51 AM EDT
i agree that it is now up to us, but to say the NRA has its own survival at stake when it researches worthy causes is not correct. the NRA was established in 1871 - LONG before the fegs began to bleed our rights through the tip of a pen. they trully do support all firearms owners in maintaining our rights as defined, but they are a [b]political[/b] body, and as such, some strategies must be kept hidden for tactical reasons...maybe i just have an unrealistic view of this organization?
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 8:26:22 AM EDT
Thats why I stipulated the NRA of today Fattym4, it is a completely differnet organization now then it was even back in the 20's. But be realistic, what would their raison de entre be if we suddenly overturned Miller and had the 2nd affirmed an individual right? Lots of people employed by the NRA would not like to see that happen.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 8:39:59 AM EDT
wow, i guess even organizations have survival instincts. maybe i am unrealistic in my hopes that the NRA's [b]ONLY[/b] reason to exist is to become [b]LESS[/b] busy. think about it, do police departments exist to get more or less busy? is this why prisons are built to punish, not rehabillitate? after a few lay-offs, and reorganizations, they could exist to PREVENT further abuse, once Miller is overturned. too much to hope for, huh? at any rate, i wholly applaud and support Matt's efforts, and i think we could really do some good here if we get together, stick together, and never bend to the will of the antis.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 8:42:56 AM EDT
100% agreement!
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 9:38:21 AM EDT
Liberty, If you are going to use a personal account for the funds , make sure that it is a totally separate account. This is a future liability issue. The Government will look at this as income, and if you think that the other side won’t look at this as a way to hang you out to dry, you are mistaken. Keep a running account of where all the money goes. You might want to talk to an accountant. Don’t give the enemy a way to derail what you are doing. The goal is to win back our rights, not end up in a IRS battle. You are much more useful out of jail. By the way count me in.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 10:45:49 AM EDT
There might be others that might be willing to donate. What about firearm manufacturers. Bushmaster? Colt? Maybe the larger ones won't bite into it but maybe smaller manufacturers would. Just an idea. Smalls Semper Fi
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 10:51:56 AM EDT
Hielo-WOW. Thanks. FattyM4-Yep, got your email, sending you one back. Also, in my research into NPOs, I'd have to make it a 501c4 instead of a 3 org, since it is a political org, which means its not tax deductible. [:(] Treetop- A separate account is what I wanted, but to do that I have to create an NPO, which requires filling out forms and paying money(which I don't have). As soon as I get enough to start it, I'll open up a bank account for it, that way it won't be a personal account.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 4:57:53 PM EDT
I applaud your passion on this subject.You've heard "only a fool is his own attorney"no doubt.[:|]I'd think 'TOTAL' research on this effort would do you/us better than a hasty action twoards a immediate result."The legal system is a wheel that grinds slow and exceedingly fine" this is my experiance also.Hielo is DA MAN. WOW would suggest he already made a[;)] "small donation".I'm in the 2nd year of a legal action to "give me the rights my state govt.legislated away from me".(right to own "anything" that accepts a large capacity mag)I do not live in Kali either![pissed]
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 6:01:21 PM EDT
hold on there hoss...... some advice first since obiviously understand politics & govt law..... 1. to repeal any federal law... you have to prove that it is either "not a specific power granted to the fed. govt. by the constution..or 2. that it is specifically a states right to enforce, not the fed. govts....or 3. that its unconstutional...and right now... you cant do that..because the firm decision as to the dispositon of the second amendments meaning is currently under pending federal court appeal..if they loose that appeal, the anti gunners and the govt loose it all... guess who's appealing the federal govt's own court ruling that the second amendment applies to citizens,not the mitlitia.. YOUR VERY OWN FEDERAL GOVT JUSTICE DEPT! THATS WHO! 4. Do you realize that when a federal law is enacted..unless its found unconstutional..by the federal court of appeals...that it is never removed.... 5. how do you plan being a novice..to succede where all the NRA'S CONSTUTIONAL SPECIALITY LAWYERS have failed for so many years? if you can answer that competently..you got my money..
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