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pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 2:49:31 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 2:50:10 PM by pokerkidz]
reposted from here:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=284632

Update on Richard Celatas ordeal as of 1:00pm EST 6-8-6

I Paul Topete, just got off the phone with Richard Celata.
It seems as though the meeting with his local sheriff was a ruse to get Richard out of his establishment so the JBThugs could go in and steal his guns, his computers, & ALL OF HIS FILES. The machine tools are still possibly going to get stolen as well in the future.

It does seem that the trigger for this raid, is that the previous sheriff had been protecting him up until yesterday. That sheriff lost the election (probably thru voter fraud), and the new sheriff had a BATFag and an FBI agent at the sheriffs’ office waiting for Richard to hand him a warrant to steal his stuff at his KT Ordnance store. By the time Richard got back to his store, the Fed Thugs were there in the process of stealing all of his merchandise, all of his livelihood.

It seems as thou the FedThugs didn’t want Richard to hold his build your own .50 caliber picnic he was to hold the weekend of the 16th of this month of June.
Here is an older version of the KT Ordnance site that is on the way back machine page. It is from 2005, but you can see the items of the 80% kits advertised still on it:
web.archive.org/web/20050212014258/http://www.ktordnance.com/

The FedThugs were also more then curious about a few known names with in the freedom/truth community. The 2 that Richard mentioned were Devvy Kidd from WE THE PEOPLE and Aaron Zelman from JPFO. They also wanted to know if Richard was in contact with any Militias and if he had sold any guns to them. (It’s none of their DAM business)

Richard is in the process of conferring with his lawyer, and setting up a few interviews with talk show hosts from RBN, GCN and a others like Johnny Bartee .

There are a couple of questions that Richard wants all of us to call into the BATFags in DC. The one I know of is whether we as free citizens are able to take a chunk of metal and fabricate it into a gun. We all know the answer to be, YES WE CAN. NWO-POW Bob Stewart rots in a FED prison, and found out the hard way that you are indeed allowed by law to do such.

I await for the 2nd question as well, and the numbers he would like us all to call into to ask. He wants to have as many folks able to back up his legal assertion that what he was doing WAS PERFECTLY legal. It was, but when has that every stopped these real criminals against our God given freedoms ever cared about RIGHTS. They would rather harass, eat out Richards substance so that he is penniless, is overworked defending himself against fraudulent charges, and has NO MORE ENERGY to continue supplying we the free with the ultimate Patriot tool everyone of us should have in our arsenal to free America someday soon.

Richard is being encouraged to continue on with the picnic the weekend of June 16th, now it will be used as a FUNDRAISER. We need to rally around this good man and his family. This is happening real time. We cannot afford to lose any more good patriot arms makers like Richard, as we lost Bob Stewart and his awesome MaadiGriffins.
www.maadigriffin.com

Richard will be emailing me after he gets rid of the new hard drives the FedThugs installed in his computer that is LOADED with spyware and I am sure Keyloggers as well. When I get the message I will update everyone.

When we get the numbers to call, we need to barrage these Federal parasites that are suppose to be working FOR US, not against we the people. We need to find out who initiated this action against Richard and call for his termination of employment. If it was the POS Chertoff, then this prick needs to go NOW!!!.
Peace
Paul from poker face
pokerface@pokerface.com
www.pokerface.com - writing the soundtrack to Americas 2nd American Revolution we all know is coming because the criminality out of DC is OUT OF CONTROL and needs a good spanking back in line. PF Kontrol Video on GOOGLE video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7991133593566503646


ps 2 Bills I would like to see passed is
Judicial accountability act
Prosecutor accountability act
Where we the people can investigate and sue those who pervert the legal system to their own wills. If a person is found innocent after being railroaded into jail or plea-bargained into jail, that what ever length of time the victim of the judicial system suffered will now be placed on the offending public servant. But this public servant will be given 3 times the amount of time served for their willful misconduct and criminal action against we the people. I know that BS charges will no longer be applied to future victims of the judiciary, if these governmental criminals themselves are to be held accountable for their criminal actions. Just a thought… Please pass this around
wildearp
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Posted: 6/8/2006 2:55:48 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 2:55:58 PM by wildearp]
In Vino Veritas.
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SWIRE
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Posted: 6/8/2006 2:58:08 PM
What is the personal and criminal background of Richard Celata? Did he have a record? Was he involved in any groups or organizations that the media would love to use against him?
.
shotar
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Posted: 6/8/2006 2:58:26 PM
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.
jmarkma
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Posted: 6/8/2006 2:59:01 PM
There has to be more to this than a local Sheriff protecting him
jmarkma
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Posted: 6/8/2006 2:59:37 PM

Originally Posted By shotar:
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???



Agreed, facts are lacking.
Fourays2
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:04:16 PM
tag for the inevitable shit storm
Tacberry
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:04:45 PM
The facts are week in this one {/yoda}

It'll be interesting to see what p.c. led to the warrant.
Yeah, but it's gonna hurt. John Smith, Last Man Standing.
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:05:00 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:05:49 PM by pokerkidz]

Originally Posted By shotar:
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???



That is your opinion. I use stolen, because several friends over the years and others, never seem to get any, or most of their stuff back. What do you call that, seized is just a polite word the feds use to basically say we can take/steal anything we want. Prove your innocence first, and then still, you may not get most or anything back.

While you are at it, why dont you do a search on the web for Richards name or company.
Richards offense is that he was making yet another great tool for our use.
peace
pk

Ps Aaron Zelman has been contacted and is already helping Richard Celata out...
jmarkma
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:07:32 PM

Originally Posted By pokerkidz:

Originally Posted By shotar:
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???





Originally Posted By shotar:
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???



That is your opinion. I use stolen, because several friends over the years and others, never seem to get any, or most of their stuff back. What do you call that, seized is just a polite word the feds use to basically say we can take/steal anything we want. Prove your innocence first, and then still, you may not get most or anything back.

While you are at it, why dont you do a search on the web for Richards name or company.
Richards offense is that he was making yet another great tool for our use.
peace
pk



The problem is that we need to be skeptical until we get all of the facts. The previous case involved someone’s friend who he thought was great too, turns out he was a convicted felon mfg. receivers.
leelaw
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:07:46 PM
I know KT is a little quirky and super critical of the Govt, but that is not enough to get a full blown raid. Judging from the email posted about this yesterday, it sounds like he knew something was coming.

I'm waiting for more any evidence, and the needed background information before making a full opinion on this.

In the meantime, all I can say is that this doesn't pass the smell test yet.
Go choke on some wheat grass, you hippy!
D-duck
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:09:36 PM
KT dosent sell .50 kits, the picnic was for build your own 1911 or ar15 along with classes on reloading, and marksmanship. Unless I missed something on the roderus forums.


Richard is a good man from what I have seen, runs an honest business and does what he can to promote the 2nd.
GonzoAR15-1
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:11:07 PM
Tag.

KT is the internet guy who sold 80% receivers, right?

His shit looked like major quality, but I got concerned about his "militianess" when I got to his prices and he broke things down to Gold, Silver and didn't appear to recognize USDollars. Hey, to each his own if he wants to disavow any role of the fedgov, but folks like that even if wholesome and dedicated patriots in their own right tend to attact the rifraff, so I never considered buying from him.

Shame, though.

I think that its pretty clear we're seeing a pattern of ATF actively trying to fuck with the "build your own" thing. Shame.

It strikes me that the other thread we had on here, the one where the guy turned out to have been a felon in possession occurred just long ago (and that guy had made his own shit) that the raid on KT may be a "follow up" to that.

Who knows.
"[T]he simple truth—born of experience—is that tyranny thrives
best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed
people" -Judge Kozinski
DK-Prof
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:13:35 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:14:04 PM by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By shotar:
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???



I pretty much stopped reading when I got to terms like "BATFags" and "Fed Thugs" "stealing" his stuff in a raid.

This isn't a democracy, it's a cheerocracy !
RevDeadCorpse
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:14:29 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:15:12 PM by RevDeadCorpse]
Zelman is one of the "good guys". I've never had any dealings with KT.

Need more info...

However, I do not trust the FedGov to tell me it's raining without stepping outside myself. That goes twice for the BATFE assholes.
"Sooner or later, you have to stand your ground. Whether anyone else does or not." - Michael Badnarik

"Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. "-El Neil
SWIRE
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:15:27 PM
So do you personally know the guy and are you going to stand up for him? What is his criminal record. That is information we need. There isn't a chance in hell that I'm calling the BATFE and harassing them based on 3rd hand information of someone I know nothing about.

I found their website it looks like they sell soap now. You have to ask yourself, why would someone go through work and hassle of making 80% complete products and selling them "as a business" but never bother to make the complete product and sell that too. I mean come on, you are 80% there and have the tools. That right there is a warning sign that something isn't right.
.
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:18:29 PM

Originally Posted By jmarkma:

The problem is that we need to be skeptical until we get all of the facts. The previous case involved someone’s friend who he thought was great too, turns out he was a convicted felon mfg. receivers.



Understood.
Richard will be emailing me later today with a press release that will be approved by his attorney.
JPFO has already started helping Richard out.

I also spoke with Aaron Zelman a short while ago and he said that he was in touch with Richard and was providing help.

Why would JPFO lend a helping hand if Richard wasnt up to snuff?
peace
pk
Torf
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:20:31 PM

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
So do you personally know the guy and are you going to stand up for him? What is his criminal record. That is information we need. There isn't a chance in hell that I'm calling the BATFE and harassing them based on 3rd hand information of someone I know nothing about.

I found their website it looks like they sell soap now. You have to ask yourself, why would someone go through work and hassle of making 80% complete products and selling them "as a business" but never bother to make the complete product and sell that too. I mean come on, you are 80% there and have the tools. That right there is a warning sign that something isn't right.



Do you need to have a FFL to sell an 80% receiver?

If not, then I might not want the hassle either if I had the tools and customers.
SC_00_05
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:20:50 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:21:24 PM by SC_00_05]

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
So do you personally know the guy and are you going to stand up for him? What is his criminal record. That is information we need. There isn't a chance in hell that I'm calling the BATFE and harassing them based on 3rd hand information of someone I know nothing about.

I found their website it looks like they sell soap now. You have to ask yourself, why would someone go through work and hassle of making 80% complete products and selling them "as a business" but never bother to make the complete product and sell that too. I mean come on, you are 80% there and have the tools. That right there is a warning sign that something isn't right.


I know nothing about this guy but maybe he just didn't want to get into the business, paperwork, and red tape of being a firearms manufacturer.

Edit: Beaten by 19 seconds by Torf
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:21:40 PM

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

I found their website it looks like they sell soap now. You have to ask yourself, why would someone go through work and hassle of making 80% complete products and selling them "as a business" but never bother to make the complete product and sell that too. I mean come on, you are 80% there and have the tools. That right there is a warning sign that something isn't right.



The front page of Richards KT Ordnance site was changed around 7 or 8pm last night 6-7-6
thats why I included an older version of his site found on the way back machine page that catalogs websites thruogh out the year. The last version they had up on the site was from 2005, and it still listed the 80% kits. Here it is again:
web.archive.org/web/20050212014258/http://www.ktordnance.com/
DK-Prof
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:25:36 PM

The 80% thing, and having build "parties" or "picnics" where you essentially help people manufacture firearms, makes me wonder about a legal question.

Obviously, you do not need a FFL to sell an 80% receiver kit, nor do you need to go through the NICS check or anything.

However, what if you KNOW that a person is a felon, and would be prohibited from purchasing a 100% firearm, and would be prohibited from OWNING a firearm if he made if from the 80% receiver you sell him?? What is the responsibility there?

Furthermore, does that become more of a problem if you allow this person to participate in a party or picnic where you show them how to turn the 80% receiver into a 100% firearm.


I don't know the answer - but it sounds like the kind of thing that the fed might try to stretch into a criminal act.


This isn't a democracy, it's a cheerocracy !
sirensong
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:25:57 PM
weird. dillon is where i spent most of my childhood, but i don't remember this guy. i'll talk to my dad and see what, if anything, he knows.
"When my memory wanders, as it does when bad things happen, I put a seashell to my ear and it all comes back. That day...You."
kpel308
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:26:07 PM
I'm about 12000 miles away. I hate thuggery. I've arrested or detained more than 1000 people. I've been arrested for trying to help someone by using a firearm, and saving her life:

POSTCOUNT=5????

You gotta be kidding me!!!!
Kick Ass.
Take Names.
Repeat As Necessary.
NCPatrolAR
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:28:23 PM

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By shotar:
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???



I pretty much stopped reading when I got to terms like "BATFags" and "Fed Thugs" "stealing" his stuff in a raid.




Yep
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:28:47 PM

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
The 80% thing, and having build "parties" or "picnics" where you essentially help people manufacture firearms, makes me wonder about a legal question.

Obviously, you do not need a FFL to sell an 80% receiver kit, nor do you need to go through the NICS check or anything.

However, what if you KNOW that a person is a felon, and would be prohibited from purchasing a 100% firearm, and would be prohibited from OWNING a firearm if he made if from the 80% receiver you sell him?? What is the responsibility there?

Furthermore, does that become more of a problem if you allow this person to participate in a party or picnic where you show them how to turn the 80% receiver into a 100% firearm.


I don't know the answer - but it sounds like the kind of thing that the fed might try to stretch into a criminal act.





You are correct. Unfortunately Bob Stewart had to learn the hard way to get this out as a FACT.
Feds expect us to follow the letter of the law. But in their case, they will stretch the law to suit their needs, and it is left up to us, to prove our RIGHTS otherwise.
peace
pk
shotar
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:30:04 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:31:57 PM by shotar]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
The 80% thing, and having build "parties" or "picnics" where you essentially help people manufacture firearms, makes me wonder about a legal question.

Obviously, you do not need a FFL to sell an 80% receiver kit, nor do you need to go through the NICS check or anything.

However, what if you KNOW that a person is a felon, and would be prohibited from purchasing a 100% firearm, and would be prohibited from OWNING a firearm if he made if from the 80% receiver you sell him?? What is the responsibility there?

Furthermore, does that become more of a problem if you allow this person to participate in a party or picnic where you show them how to turn the 80% receiver into a 100% firearm.


I don't know the answer - but it sounds like the kind of thing that the fed might try to stretch into a criminal act.





Lets see, I'm going to provide the parts, tools, knowledge and equipment and location, but you are going to be building it yourself???? Yeah, I would sure buy that one I guess if I go on a factory tour of Remington and they let me push the button to finish a receiver on their machine, then I made it myself and no taxes need be paid?
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:31:10 PM

Originally Posted By kpel308:
I'm about 12000 miles away. I hate thuggery. I've arrested or detained more than 1000 people. I've been arrested for trying to help someone by using a firearm, and saving her life:

POSTCOUNT=5????

You gotta be kidding me!!!!



I have an even older account fro pokerkid
but have lost the password

I have been posting off and on on ar15.com over the years in regards to my bands support of our 2nd Amendment, and folks here talking about our music.

So yeah i have only 9 posts so far on the newer pokerkidz account.
Any other questions.
pokerkid
Yankee1911
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:31:14 PM
tag
According to my estimates, you've wasted 8 hours of my time...and I assure you that's a kind estimate.
ChareltonHest
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:31:37 PM

pokerkidz:

Understood.
Richard will be emailing me later today with a press release that will be approved by his attorney.
JPFO has already started helping Richard out.

I also spoke with Aaron Zelman a short while ago and he said that he was in touch with Richard and was providing help.




Dear sir:

I am glad to hear JPFO is on top of this, and I am very interested in what is happening in MT.

I am very pleased with the JPFO and their "Boot the BATFE" campaign. JPFO is one of my favorite gun groups.

Also, there is another site: ATFabuse.com that would also like to know of anything that the ATF is up to. It is new and still getting started, but we seek to gather ANY and ALL known info on BATF abuse for the creation of a centralized resource on the matter.

If you have any aditional information, updates, E-mail Alerts, interview times, ect., would you please let me know?


Sincerely, "C.H".
ChareltonHest -at- atfabuse.com
fivepointoh
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:33:46 PM
to the friend of richard posting this stuff on here:


POST SOME FUCKING FACTS/BACKGROUND/ETC.......christ you want ppl to jump on your bandwagon and support richard and your cause and yet you leave so much gray that stink couldn't even find shit.....seriously none of this dropping in and out posting the same shit you've already said.....answer ppls questions about his background and then whenever they release the press release post that and try to answer more ppl's questions.....but then again you may be as blind as we are about this situation and if that's the case i take back my first statement made to you but it seems you know more....like others have said...i don't stand up for anyone until i know the facts and know their background
Sydwaiz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:33:57 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:38:03 PM by Sydwaiz]
Doesn't he avoid taxes by claiming sovereinty like a native American? Even his payment address is funky. "c/o postal service address blah blah blah" WTF? It's like he's denounced everything .gov. Is he even a citizen? Maybe the BATFE and FBI turned IRS. There has to be more going on here.
Okay, your'e on my list!
Mournblade
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:34:40 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:36:14 PM by Mournblade]
This is happening though, I mean look at KT Ordnance's website, it no longer carries the 80% kits on it.

You guys are super critical of this guy's writing style, why don't you pursue the message? Richard's store has been raided by the the Feds, and he is apparently in serious trouble.

I personally have had contact with Richard over email, and this concerns me, as the Fed has no doubt confiscated his computers as well.
Mmanwitgun
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:36:21 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:40:53 PM by Mmanwitgun]
I met the man twice when he had his shop in NH. He was very polite and went out of his way to help numerous people with gun issues. Hearing about this is pretty bad. His buisness was legitimate and all the 80% recievers completed where done by the buyers of them. At no point did he break the law. This is just a case of .gov busting down on a legal activity they don't like.

ETA: I don't know whats going on in the current situation, but at the shoots I've attended there was no wrongdoings taking place.
fivepointoh
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:37:01 PM
[Last Edit: 6/8/2006 3:39:37 PM by fivepointoh]

Originally Posted By Mournblade:
This is happening though, I mean look at KT Ordnance's website, it no longer carries the 80% kits on it.

You guys are super critical of this guy's writing style, why don't you pursue the message? Richard's store has been raided by the the Feds, and he is apparently in serious trouble.

I personally have had contact with Ricard over email, and this concerns me, as the Fed has no doubt confiscated his computers as well.




well if you didn't do anything wrong then stop worrying....jeez richard w/ the email acted as if he knew it was coming so he must have been doing something that he was told to quit and neglected or was illegal.....and you're acting the same way

EDIT: and fyi....they took his hard drives and replaced them w/ new ones...it was stated in the other thread about this so yes they'll probably see your name but if you were in email contact with him then depending on how long ago that was they may have read thru your emails as you were sending them but just lawyer up if they come after you and as long as you haven't done anything illegal i'm sure we'll all defend you
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:38:04 PM

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
I pretty much stopped reading when I got to terms like "BATFags" and "Fed Thugs" "stealing" his stuff in a raid.

Yep



I call it as I see it.
You murder Americans like the Davidians
The Weavers
Gordon Kahl,
Put countless of Americans in jail for basically bureaucratic legaleeze, you stop being a legitimate law enforcement authority.

They are RIGHTS Violators of the WORST kind. period.
Then again, I am not a press release secretary, but am a pissed off Free American citizen that is tired of good folks getting whacked or imprisoned because they are a threat to the criminal system upon us today.

If the Feds actually did their job, they wouldnt be harrassing or killing Americans.
Comprende?
pk
shotar
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:40:30 PM

Originally Posted By pokerkidz:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
I pretty much stopped reading when I got to terms like "BATFags" and "Fed Thugs" "stealing" his stuff in a raid.

Yep



I call it as I see it.
You murder Americans like the Davidians
The Weavers
Gordon Kahl,
Put countless of Americans in jail for basically bureaucratic legaleeze, you stop being a legitimate law enforcement authority.

They are RIGHTS Violators of the WORST kind. period.
Then again, I am not a press release secretary, but am a pissed off Free American citizen that is tired of good folks getting whacked or imprisoned because they are a threat to the criminal system upon us today.

If the Feds actually did their job, they wouldnt be harrassing or killing Americans.
Comprende?
pk



Ok, that last just moved me right into the don't give a shit category.
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:41:12 PM

Originally Posted By shotar:
Lets see, I'm going to provide the parts, tools, knowledge and equipment and location, but you are going to be building it yourself???? Yeah, I would sure buy that one I guess if I go on a factory tour of Remington and they let me push the button to finish a receiver on their machine, then I made it myself and no taxes need be paid?



here is a good post on ar15.com that tells you what Richard was selling and providing to the customer. from the previous thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=210572
pk
fivepointoh
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:42:35 PM

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By pokerkidz:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
I pretty much stopped reading when I got to terms like "BATFags" and "Fed Thugs" "stealing" his stuff in a raid.

Yep



I call it as I see it.
You murder Americans like the Davidians
The Weavers
Gordon Kahl,
Put countless of Americans in jail for basically bureaucratic legaleeze, you stop being a legitimate law enforcement authority.

They are RIGHTS Violators of the WORST kind. period.
Then again, I am not a press release secretary, but am a pissed off Free American citizen that is tired of good folks getting whacked or imprisoned because they are a threat to the criminal system upon us today.

If the Feds actually did their job, they wouldnt be harrassing or killing Americans.
Comprende?
pk



Ok, that last just moved me right into the don't give a shit category.



+1.....you ever stop to think this might be like detaining the thousands of iraqi's even if they aren't terrorists but to find out info or to just scare the shit out of them so they don't take it to the next level....well maybe they're trying to do that w/ richard....b/c it sounds like he's pushed the limits pretty close and maybe they're saying hey lets put a stop to this b4 it starts....comprende?
SWIRE
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:45:04 PM

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
So do you personally know the guy and are you going to stand up for him? What is his criminal record. That is information we need. There isn't a chance in hell that I'm calling the BATFE and harassing them based on 3rd hand information of someone I know nothing about.

I found their website it looks like they sell soap now. You have to ask yourself, why would someone go through work and hassle of making 80% complete products and selling them "as a business" but never bother to make the complete product and sell that too. I mean come on, you are 80% there and have the tools. That right there is a warning sign that something isn't right.


I know nothing about this guy but maybe he just didn't want to get into the business, paperwork, and red tape of being a firearms manufacturer.

Edit: Beaten by 19 seconds by Torf



I was going off the orginal information which said this was the guys business complete with a store. If someone is going through 80% of the motions and has the costs of the store and the goal of it is a business not a hobby then why wouldn't one make it legit to maximize the business? That is why it doesn't make sense. Not wanting to fill out paperwork is a bullshit excuse. I have run side businesses in the passed and go through all the federal paperwork required to become an importer. If I can do it for something I do on the side then anyone who is legit can do it for a real business. Like I said, it's a sign that something isn't right. People are strange, it doesn't mean he's not legit, just that you have to look into it first and find that out.

.
NonConformist
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:45:12 PM
I'll support the dealer before i give the ATF any credibility. They are too willing to fabricate a crime and exceed their authority for me to trust anything out of their mouthes or spokespersons
كافر

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Mmanwitgun
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:45:26 PM

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
The 80% thing, and having build "parties" or "picnics" where you essentially help people manufacture firearms, makes me wonder about a legal question.

Obviously, you do not need a FFL to sell an 80% receiver kit, nor do you need to go through the NICS check or anything.

However, what if you KNOW that a person is a felon, and would be prohibited from purchasing a 100% firearm, and would be prohibited from OWNING a firearm if he made if from the 80% receiver you sell him?? What is the responsibility there?

Furthermore, does that become more of a problem if you allow this person to participate in a party or picnic where you show them how to turn the 80% receiver into a 100% firearm.


I don't know the answer - but it sounds like the kind of thing that the fed might try to stretch into a criminal act.





Lets see, I'm going to provide the parts, tools, knowledge and equipment and location, but you are going to be building it yourself???? Yeah, I would sure buy that one I guess if I go on a factory tour of Remington and they let me push the button to finish a receiver on their machine, then I made it myself and no taxes need be paid?



FYI theres a more to the process than hitting a button and at the "build parties" people did complete them themselves so no laws where broken.
pokerkidz
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:45:42 PM

Originally Posted By fivepointoh:
to the friend of richard posting this stuff on here:


POST SOME FUCKING FACTS/BACKGROUND/ETC.......christ you want ppl to jump on your bandwagon and support richard and your cause and yet you leave so much gray that stink couldn't even find shit.....seriously none of this dropping in and out posting the same shit you've already said.....answer ppls questions about his background and then whenever they release the press release post that and try to answer more ppl's questions.....but then again you may be as blind as we are about this situation and if that's the case i take back my first statement made to you but it seems you know more....like others have said...i don't stand up for anyone until i know the facts and know their background



I am waiting for Richard to get back on line since the Feds removed his Hard drives, and the ones they gave him were full of spyware.

When he gets permission from his attorney he will send out said release and I will post it here.

Until then, all I have is my 3 phone calls to Richard and his wife.

I am a political protest musician, not a presstitute reporter.
peace
pk

ps I would think that the JPFO will be issuing a release as well.
SC_00_05
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:46:02 PM

Originally Posted By fivepointoh:

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By pokerkidz:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
I pretty much stopped reading when I got to terms like "BATFags" and "Fed Thugs" "stealing" his stuff in a raid.

Yep



I call it as I see it.
You murder Americans like the Davidians
The Weavers
Gordon Kahl,
Put countless of Americans in jail for basically bureaucratic legaleeze, you stop being a legitimate law enforcement authority.

They are RIGHTS Violators of the WORST kind. period.
Then again, I am not a press release secretary, but am a pissed off Free American citizen that is tired of good folks getting whacked or imprisoned because they are a threat to the criminal system upon us today.

If the Feds actually did their job, they wouldnt be harrassing or killing Americans.
Comprende?
pk



Ok, that last just moved me right into the don't give a shit category.



+1.....you ever stop to think this might be like detaining the thousands of iraqi's even if they aren't terrorists but to find out info or to just scare the shit out of them so they don't take it to the next level....well maybe they're trying to do that w/ richard....b/c it sounds like he's pushed the limits pretty close and maybe they're saying hey lets put a stop to this b4 it starts....comprende?


Damn, I hope you're kidding. You think its ok to treat citizens in America like they're friggin terrorists in Iraq?
shotar
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:47:49 PM

Originally Posted By pokerkidz:

Originally Posted By fivepointoh:
to the friend of richard posting this stuff on here:


POST SOME FUCKING FACTS/BACKGROUND/ETC.......christ you want ppl to jump on your bandwagon and support richard and your cause and yet you leave so much gray that stink couldn't even find shit.....seriously none of this dropping in and out posting the same shit you've already said.....answer ppls questions about his background and then whenever they release the press release post that and try to answer more ppl's questions.....but then again you may be as blind as we are about this situation and if that's the case i take back my first statement made to you but it seems you know more....like others have said...i don't stand up for anyone until i know the facts and know their background



I am waiting for Richard to get back on line since the Feds removed his Hard drives, and the ones they gave him were full of spyware.

When he gets permission from his attorney he will send out said release and I will post it here.

Until then, all I have is my 3 phone calls to Richard and his wife.

I am a political protest musician, not a presstitute reporter.
peace
pk

ps I would think that the JPFO will be issuing a release as well.



Oh, the Drama. I can hardley wait.
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.
Mournblade
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:48:36 PM

Originally Posted By fivepointoh:


EDIT: and fyi....they took his hard drives and replaced them w/ new ones...it was stated in the other thread about this so yes they'll probably see your name but if you were in email contact with him then depending on how long ago that was they may have read thru your emails as you were sending them but just lawyer up if they come after you and as long as you haven't done anything illegal i'm sure we'll all defend you




*sigh*, the old arguement if you haven't done anything wrong, then why worry... well, I guess I worry for a lot of reasons, not because I have done anything wrong though.

Mainly, do you trust the gov with your information? I don't. That's the main reason. I just don't want to be on their radar at all. Hard not too though, seeing as how my cell phone carrier just gave up all my telephone call data to the fed.

That's a bad attitude to take to the fed, man... it's not about what you may or may not have done wrong, it's about a violation of the 4th amendment.

eswanson
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:49:41 PM
I just looked at that link to the old KT website - the part where he says that they provide all the machine tools and "supervision" to the customers to build there own guns makes it sound a wee bit fishy. "Buy this 80% receiver, then come on in back and we'll "supervise" while you use our machines and our tooling to turn it into a 100% reciever!"

The phrase "asking for trouble" comes to mind.
Mmanwitgun
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:50:34 PM

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
I was going off the orginal information which said this was the guys business complete with a store. If someone is going through 80% of the motions and has the costs of the store and the goal of it is a business not a hobby then why wouldn't one make it legit to maximize the business?



Alot of 80% recievers sell for more money than most completed recievers. Plus his shop is a small time operation, financially it would be pretty retarded to compete with some of the larger manufacturers
Throttle-Junkie
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:51:47 PM

Originally Posted By shotar:
Ok, this wasted my time in a serious way. An account of events as written by a 12 year old with little regard to details or facts. Including the words stolen in place of seized as evidence does not help the cause. Seriously, the last time this board was led down this prim rose path to righteous indignation, the dirtbag who got his stuff seized turned out to be a convicted violent felon who was manufacturing weapons.

Is this just a militia nutjob redux???



I don't know anything about the event or the raid, and don't care what the story says. I spoke with Richard on the phone a few years ago. Amazingly nice guy and extremely humble. No chip on his shoulder about anything.

He runs a tool and die type machining service and makes 80% receivers on the side. The end user must complete a bunch of machining to make it into a functional firearm. He sumbits samples to BATF. They approve his warez for sale as non-firearms. Everything is legal-eagle. No problems. Been going on a long time, out in the open and in the light of day.

He hosts picnics now and again at his place. People can use his equipment and expertise to complete their 80% lower, or 1911 frame, or sig frame or whatever. It's kind of like an arfcom get together, or a build party, but the lines apparently get real fuzzy because he's also the supplier of the castings.

*** Purely speculating from here : ***

From my own machining experience, I'd imagine that he has various jigs set up on milling machines. He could then show someone how to clamp thier workpeice into the jig, and let them turn the handles on the machine. They are technically completing the machining on their own, but everything has been greatly facilitated by Richard.

This sort of arrangement blurs the line between the home builder legally constructing his own firearm, and the illegal manufacture and sale of a firearm. Particularly if Rich sold them the blank, a parts kit, let them use the machines, and then helped them assemble the final product all under the same roof and on the same day. What's the difference? I showed up, handed over some cash, and a little while later left with a gun.

Did I mention that people are usually traveling from several states away to attend these shin-digs? Bad joo-joo.

If I go to the S&W factory and they let me press the buttons on the machine that makes the frame for a model 59, does that mean that I made it myself and can leave with it? No papers? No serial numbers? Travel across state lines?

Done speculating.

I'm certain that he submitted samples of everything to BATF and got approval. I've seen scans of some of the paperwork. He posted frequent updates as he was developing a new product and submitting multiple iterations to BATF, seeing exactly what was, and what was not permissable. He was aiming for the absolute maximum amount of machining that could be done by him and still have BATF rule that it was not a firearm.

Rick: Can I tap the buffer threads, mill the fire control, and cut the mag well?
BATF: No, that's a firearm.
Rick: How 'bout this sample where the buffer hole is drilled to size, but the buffer threads aren't tapped?
BATF: No, that's a firearm.
Rick: How 'bout this one where the hole is located correctly, but drilled undersized?
BATF: That would be okay if there were less of the other holes drilled through.
Rick: How 'bout this one where I've correctly located every single hole and made little divots as drill bit starters, but the holes aren't drilled all the way through?
BATF: Yes, that's okay. It's not a firearm.

This is a guy that was trying to remain compliant. That said, he's also a guy that made them clarify EXACTLY where the line was, and was going to operate RIGHT ON THE LINE, and those guys ALWAYS get fucked over in time. From the minimal contact I had with him, I liked him plenty. I also recognized that he was someone to steer clear of, and never patronized his wares.

Best of luck to him and his family.
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:52:17 PM




+1.....you ever stop to think this might be like detaining the thousands of iraqi's even if they aren't terrorists but to find out info or to just scare the shit out of them so they don't take it to the next level....well maybe they're trying to do that w/ richard....b/c it sounds like he's pushed the limits pretty close and maybe they're saying hey lets put a stop to this b4 it starts....comprende?


Damn, I hope you're kidding. You think its ok to treat citizens in America like they're friggin terrorists in Iraq?

+10000 we are Americans, gdammit! We are supposed to have a Constitution that protects us from this type of gestapo bullcrap!
txgp17
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:54:37 PM
"God created man, but Sam Colt made them equal." - Unknown
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كافر
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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:54:40 PM
Sorry, I'm slow. Who the hell is JPFO?
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