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Posted: 8/13/2001 8:01:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:05:38 AM EDT
Right on, GB. I have to say that I agree with you fully and wish I could have been the man you described above 100% of the time. Another good question is "Whatever happened to integrity?"
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:08:39 AM EDT
No, GoatBoy, honor is not dead, but it is sickly. Our society has been moving away from the concept for quite a while. I, too, fear for our future.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:08:49 AM EDT
TV. I hate to say it, because I do watch a lot of TV. Most people, IMHO, are stupid. Maybe after watching all these TV shows, they believe what they see. I dont know.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:09:55 AM EDT
I agree GB. I look around and see very few honorable people in my life. too many people trying to go the easy route or doing what feels good at the moment. I think it it part selfishness (what's in it for ME?) and part of the fallout from the 60s if it feels good then do it thing. People no longer are held accountable for the actions they take also. It's never little Johnnys fault, it is an opressive society, maybe he had a bad home life, dysfunctional family, perhaps he is depressed, or maybe the cook at Burger king just put too much burn on his burger. At any rate there is no way it is HIS fault. Honor does not seem to be a good thing, except for those of us who live our lives that way. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:10:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:11:26 AM EDT
this is a perennial problem, as old as society. the roman historians had the same complaint, it's nothing new. maybe 1 in 10, or 1 in 100 of us has the luxury to be concerned about honor and integrity, for the rest it's enough of a struggle to get by on expedience. what to do? if honor and integrity are important to us, live it, regardless of what the others do. just because we are surrounded by pigs doesnt mean we have to wallow in the sty with them.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:11:55 AM EDT
Honor, Dignity, Respect, etc. are not dead yet but they certainly seem to have less value that's for sure. A perfect example of the degradation of these values are our elected officials, the way in which America blew off many of the Clinton scandals is disgusting to me. Few seem to realize or care what a poor example that set for our society.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:13:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: I expect people to treat me the way I treat them and vice-versa. I expect those I consider family and friends to think along the same lines as I do. Otherwise I consider them acquaintances or people I know. If I am willing to give my life for someone, I expect the same sort of devotion and respect from that person. This is probably why I do not make or have many friends... I expect a lot and most people just can't live up to that. -- GB
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Amen.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:25:07 AM EDT
If not dead its on life support. Cheating at the Military Academies. Altering the records of the Osprey. Sale and theft of our military secrets. The military is a reflection of our society. Like POGO said; "We have found the enemy and it is us."
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:34:09 AM EDT
No one accepts responsibility anymore, from our top elected officials to the average joe on the street. Thats why when someone does act honorably, it makes the evening news or the papers, It's not common anymore. Our government promotes dishonor and lack of ethics and we see it constantly on TV. The government makes it easy and acceptable to be lazy, dishonest and iresponsible. Honorable icons, whoever they may be are under constant attack as being "old school" or "out of touch" where scumbag celbrities are held up as "heros" when they scew up and are forced to enter rehab. All we can do is continue to teach our children that Duty, Honor and country are essential to the survival of our nation.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:38:51 AM EDT
like prebans, it will get more and more rare untill its gone, and most mass media sheep wont know the goddamn diffrence anyway, but oneday they will wish they had it back.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:41:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:45:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:47:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker: what to do? if honor and integrity are important to us, live it, regardless of what the others do. just because we are surrounded by pigs doesnt mean we have to wallow in the sty with them.
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I agree [beer]
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:55:04 AM EDT
A Jesuit priest once said that Richard Nixon's actions during Watergate were guided by "situation ethics". He described his conclusion by stateing that one could do what they deemed correct based on the moment, not on the past, present or future impact of their actions. I forget the priest's name but I do think it equates to: If it feels good, do it. Sad to say but Goatboy hit a big nail right on the head.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:01:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:06:42 AM EDT
Step 1 : Spend one half of your adult life searching for articles designed to give you something new to worry about. Step 2: Spend the other half searching for articles that will tell you how to cure your unhappines.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:09:02 AM EDT
No,....Honor is not dead....As long as I am alive. Although I am not in the military or ex-military, I do believe in honor, family honor, pernonal honor and words of honor. I know, I have been considered as an oldie (over the hill guy), but I will teach my children its' value. It's all in the teaching. Teach! and teach our children well.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:13:37 AM EDT
Ditto to what everyone else has said up to this point. First of all, let me say that while integrity and honor are on the decline in society generally, I believe that members of the armed forces still are by far and large part of the most honorable, ethical, and moral segment of society. I believe that when a member of the law-enforcement/military community violates his/her *OATH*, and provides us with an example of dishonesty, lack of integrity, etc., it's much more visible (and reprehensible) because of the position of trust that society has given him/her. Going back to the general issue, I think that the decline in honesty is linked hand-in-hand with the decline and lack of individual responsibility. The mainstay of the progressive/liberal/socialist/communist/democrat philosophy has always been that individuals aren't capable (smart enough) to make the best decisions in their own interest, thereby necesitating government (didn't you know they're smarter??) intervention. It only follows then, if we're not smart enough to reason and make good decisions, that we can't possibly be held accountable for our actions. It's an easy and natural viewpoint for men to embrace - any animal will learn to avoid the negative consequences of it's actions. All the stupid, frivolous lawsuits (firearms, tobacco, hot coffee, etc., ad nauseum) we see today are both proof that this is occurring, and at the same time frightening precedents and encouragement for weaker individuals. Like someone said before, all we can do is LIVE IT ourselves, TEACH IT to those around us (example is the best teacher, and EXPOSE CORRUPTION WHERE WE FIND IT, WITHOUT REGARD FOR OUR OWN SECURITY!!
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:13:53 AM EDT
I was taught "honor" and "right action" early on by my family and through the study of martial arts. I sought employment where I expected honor to be an asset but found it to be a liability.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:19:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: I expect people to treat me the way I treat them and vice-versa. I expect those I consider family and friends to think along the same lines as I do. Otherwise I consider them acquaintances or people I know. If I am willing to give my life for someone, I expect the same sort of devotion and respect from that person. This is probably why I do not make or have many friends... I expect a lot and most people just can't live up to that. -- GB
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May I add another amen. This is the creed that I live my life by. Only adding that when people can't comply with this then I believe you should then treat people the way they treat you. And if they don't like it it shows that they obviously think they are better than you or are just out to get over on you and how little respect they are due as a person. Sadly too many people in the world have different standards for others compared to themselves.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:20:17 AM EDT
Honor, like all virtuous ideals is something that is a goal to be achieved. A standard to strive for that may or may not be attained depending on the situation. If you set standards of behavior for yourself, a code to live by, it should be a high standard that is difficult if not nearly impossible to achieve. Like the Judeo/Christian ethic. If you try and fall short you are still living a standard of conduct higher than most people. We are all human and have character flaws of some type. We have all behaved in a way at some time in our lives that we are ashamed of. The key is to learn from that behavior and realize that unethical, dishonorable behavior is unacceptable and a man should always be able to hold his head up and not be ashamed of his behavior. I am a better man than the likes of Bill Clinton and many other people like him. What has it gotten me other than a clear conscience and a good reputation? What else is there that really matters in the end? We are as we are remembered after we are gone.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:42:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: ...Our government promotes dishonor and lack of ethics and we see it constantly on TV. The government makes it easy and acceptable to be lazy, dishonest and iresponsible. Honorable icons, whoever they may be are under constant attack as being "old school" or "out of touch" where scumbag celbrities are held up as "heros" when they scew up and are forced to enter rehab. All we can do is continue to teach our children that Duty, Honor and country are essential to the survival of our nation.
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I fully agree!
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:49:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:58:31 AM EDT
[b]Our government promotes dishonor and lack of ethics and we see it constantly on TV. The government makes it easy and acceptable to be lazy, dishonest and iresponsible.[/b] The government does not elect itself.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:00:48 AM EDT
Just to add my .02 The best measure of honor is when your ideals come in conflict with your safety... Have you ever been in a threatening situation and done the "right" thing, even though it was definitely not the safe thing? The recurring themes valued by men (and women) who go in harms way appear to be 1) "I will not fail my team-mate" (HONOR) 2) Whining is intolerable to those of us trying to fix the problem (INTEGRITY) I have found that in a fire company of two dozen men, 20 of them will state that they would enter a burning building to save a child...three or four of them actually would. Of those, half will leave when the heat starts to burn your neck and ears. Of the remaining one or two, 75% will leave you when the first of two children is found... All 24 of those men will describe themselves as honorable, only one will be telling the truth. If you want to know if a man is honorable, don't ask him... ask his peers. Mass media / liberal press have NO impact on honorable men.....it requires intelligence to be honorable, enough to know what truth is. I believe it has always been this way and always will be... just my opinion
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:01:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 9:58:08 AM EDT by phrigid]
When I take on a martial arts student, there are four things that I require them to strive for: Integrity Honor Peace Love In the ranking system that I use, there are no colored belts or "feel goods." Each student gets to have the Japanese calligraphs of one of these four traits emroidered on his/her uniform for every rank that they achieve. Not many make it all the way. Too bad more parents don't do the same.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:01:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:03:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 1:50:14 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: One thing I always look forward to, is the exchange of knowledge and thoughts on this forum. Strength comes from our unity and our knowledge. Together we can make a difference, but if we allow ourselves to be separated, we'll be crushed one group at a time. -- GB
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If we put half the energy into "making a difference" that we put into the pissing contests that go on here, we'd be MUCH better off. For example - The "Babe of the Day" thread was accessed over [strike] 11,000 [/strike] 31,000 times in a two week period. How many letters to the editor, or pro-gun protests, contacts with Congressman, were made during the same period???? Lastly, the "loss of honor" is ONLY a symptom of a MUCH larger problem.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:14:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy:
Look at who we immortalize... athletes, movie stars, politicians, villains, and heroes. If you're not a hero why be on this list? And there are very few heroes on that list. Everyone else has done little to nothing for the world or for any of us.
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Couldn't have said it better if I tried. Our view of what makes a "hero" has been skewed into what Hollywood says is cool. And we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:17:52 AM EDT
GB; rent the movie "Pay it Forward" with Kevin Spacey- (ok, the ending kind of sucked but that's not the point). If Hollywood, as corrupt as it is, can put a screen play like this onto the screen, then there is always hope. No matter how little. When ever in history were the honorable people the majority? ok, the 1950s... when else? Point is, even in small numbers, honor speaks loudly.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:21:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: The "Babe of the Day" thread was accessed over 11,000 times in a two week period. How many letters to the editor, or pro-gun protests, contacts with Congressman, were made during the same period????
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As the author of said post, let me assure you that I am very pro-gun and conduct my ENTIRE life accordingly. Let's keep it on topic, Babe The Day has nothing to do with it. I like to eat pizza, and most people eat a lot of pizza but this doesn't have anything to do with being pro gun. Rather than criticize simply keep bringing issues to light. Keep posting the heads up, etc. So many of us email, Home Depot, Lowes, The Million Moms, congressmen, etc. that it is insulting to suggest all we do is check out Babe of The Day. Botom line, if YOU, or anyone else brings "pro gun" issues, polls, warnings, etc. WE ACT UPON THEM. We always have and always will. But we will also check out Babe Of The Day. Quit letting "personal views" let you make innacurate value judgements on the members here based upon the popularity of Babe Of The Day. My apologies to Goatboy, the subject was "honor."
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:52:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Botom line, if YOU, or anyone else brings "pro gun" issues, polls, warnings, etc. WE ACT UPON THEM. We always have and always will.
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Steyr - If you think responding to a internet poll, or e-mailing Home Depot / KMart makes one iota of difference, its no wonder we're getting the snot knocked out of us on the gun issue.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:05:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:09:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 11:07:02 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By garandman: Steyr - If you think responding to a internet poll, or e-mailing Home Depot / KMart makes one iota of difference, its no wonder we're getting the snot knocked out of us on the gun issue.
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garandman, I know where you're coming from, but that was the standard that you held up:
Originally Posted by garandman: The "Babe of the Day" thread was accessed over 11,000 times in a two week period. How many letters to the editor, or pro-gun protests, contacts with Congressman, were made during the same period????
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All SteyrAUG was saying is that his other activities didn't grind to a halt just because he posted a few bikini shots on the web. We're multitaskers here, and I'm sure that continued, even with the knockouts to look out. Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:10:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: Well now it's time to look onto real life and the people living it. Every day I see people getting divorces, beating their children, beating their spouses, killing, robbing, raping, etc. WTF is wrong with the times? Where did the concept of honor get trashed??? I fear for a world with no honor, I fear for our future.
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Then you should fear for the past too. The fact is, if you look at history, none of this is new and none of it was rare. People beat their wives and children for MILLENIA and it used to be the ACCEPTED practice. There was even a rule in the Middle Ages in Europe that you couldn't beat your wife with a rod bigger around than your thumb. Widespread divorce is fairly new, but it simply replaced polygamy and the disguised form of polygamy that was staying married and keeping multiple mistresses. I think the old way was better for the children, but both have their bad points. Killing? Robbing? Raping? We look like pikers compared to most times in history. The reason people assume we are at an extraordinarily bad time in history is the media...we hear about EVERY HORRIBLE THING that happens ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. It didn't used to be that way. People used to be more insulated, less informed, and felt more secure. But human beings haven't changed and none of this is new...in fact, as far as behavior goes, in some ways we are in one of the most well-behaved times in history. Yes, there are parts of the world where savagery is the rule, but that used to be the way it was EVERYWHERE. Things really aren't that bad.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:13:58 AM EDT
Like so many others on this board, my sense of honor was forged in the dojo. Almost every man who has taught me martial arts or martial spirit was a member of the armed forces at one time or another. Much can be added to this but here are the seven basic priciples of Bushido (The Warrior Way) [b]Gi[/b]: the right decision, taken with equanimity, the right attitude, the truth. When we must die, we must die. Rectitude. [b]Yu[/b]: bravery tinged with heroism. [b]Jin[/b]: universal love, benevolence toward mankind; compassion. [b]Rei[/b]: right action--a most essential quality, courtesy. [b]Makoto[/b]: utter sincerity; truthfulness. [b]Melyo[/b]: honor and glory. [b]Chugo[/b]: devotion, loyalty. "Rudeness is a weak person's imitation of strength."
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:21:50 AM EDT
This might be to the side, but the former Director of my department was the worst. The government is now trying to cover up his actions. Almost 30 of us have sued them for harassment. Myself and 3 other LEO's had the option of playing along with him, we chose to fight and although our lives were virtually destroyed, he was forced to retire. His ID # was 666, he liked it. There is honor today I saw it in many of my fellow LEO's, in a few honest elected officials, It isn't charging over a hill and shooting, it is honest people that realize their values are more important that the promised benefits.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:23:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 11:19:38 AM EDT by Kevin]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Things really aren't that bad.
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But they are not that good either. There are plenty of wrongs to list, infact I don't even know where to begin. If America doesn't wake up and start using some [size=5][b]common sense[/b][/size=5] I don't know where we'll be 30 years from now.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:25:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: The fact is, if you look at history, none of this is new and none of it was rare. Things really aren't that bad.
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RikWriter is right. And wrong. If you look at history, as he wisely suggested, you'll notice an ebb and flow to "honor" and "morality." The easiest way to look at it is by individual cultures - the Mesopotamians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Europeans, and now the Americans. As each individual culture has departed from adherence to God's standards, and His authority to demand obedience to them, that society has lost its ability to maintain its "honor." But I get ahead of myself.... WHAT IS "honor?" Keeping your word. "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Being faithful in your marriage. "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Acquiring wealth honestly. "Thou shalt not steal." Acting in a disciplined manner. "Obey those that have authority over you." Most ANY defintion we can attach to "honor" is first defined in Biblical principles of behaviour. As we have determined that the Bible is antiquated, and that God's standards are old fashioned, we ahve lost our moorings, and departed from honor. Many of you will argue this point of view, but in your gut, you KNOW its is right. Because its NOT my view, its God's. Its a principle that I'm as guilty of violating as anyone. And the ONLY difference in me is Jesus Christ.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:27:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:37:55 AM EDT
Honor existed long before there was a bible. Even before the 10 Commandments were given to Moses. Honor is a Humanistic ideal. The Commandments were just that -commands. "Behave this way or feel my wrath." Honor is what possesses a man to do what he knows to be right, and carry himself in a righteous way. -Not because he fears repercussions.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:41:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 11:45:05 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Honor existed long before there was a bible. Even before the 10 Commandments were given to Moses. Honor is a Humanistic ideal. The Commandments were just that -commands. "Behave this way or feel my wrath." Honor is what possesses a man to do what he knows to be right, and carry himself in a righteous way. -Not because he fears repercussions.
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Actually, the Bible addresses the period BEFORE the Ten Commandment as well. It specifically said "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Yes, honor existed - it was just defined in a REAL twisted fashion. And don't forget - God's principles have ALWAYS existed. Its just that man didn't know about them before God gave the Ten Comm. And prior to their arrival, "honor" meant something different for every individual (i.e. that which was right in his own eyes) Kinda sounds like today, don't it???? [:D]
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:48:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Its just that man didn't know about them before God gave the Ten Comm. And prior to their arrival, "honor" meant something different for every individual (i.e. that which was right in his own eyes)
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....and nothing has changed.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:50:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy:
Originally Posted By garandman: Its just that man didn't know about them before God gave the Ten Comm. And prior to their arrival, "honor" meant something different for every individual (i.e. that which was right in his own eyes)
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....and nothing has changed.
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Roger that, Major. You right.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:58:36 AM EDT
Honor is not dead, if you are an honorable man.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 12:01:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Honor is not dead, if you are an honorable man.
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Again, I'll agree. I'll even go a bit further, and say that honor will NEVER die, because it is defined by principles that are ETERNAL.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 12:05:35 PM EDT
Major Murphy wrote [Honor is what possesses a man to do what he knows to be right, and carry himself in a righteous way]. Another Contributor [Acting in a disciplined manner. "Obey those that have authority over you.] I'm left wondering…was the Bible written to address absolutely every single issue that will ever come up in the world? Could it possibly have been? If not, was it intended by it's creator to be bent, twisted and manipulated to mean whatever the "pundit" would want it to "say"…… To extend…… The priest says to the little boy…"pull down your pants, let's take a look…" The little boy references the pundit's words.. "Obey those that have authority over you" and does as he has been instructed…. I give you "Honor" Personally, I like Major Murphy's version.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 12:06:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: I, too, fear for our future.
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Tom Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, and Ben Franklin felt the same way.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 12:07:28 PM EDT
I don't think honor is dead, but it's on life support. Our public schools don't mention honor anymore, because that could lead our young people to believe that there is a universal, higher truth more important than the socialized group-think being jammed down their throats by the NEA gestapo. Children of divorced parents or "single parent households" generally don't get the input or example of a full-time father because the prevailing thought is that children need a mother more than a father. It's a ridiculous generalization, but that's the way the courts work. Rather than look at each divorcing couple as a separate case, the system operates under the prevailing tendency that the mother is the more important parent and the father is good only for income production. Without a strong, constant father figure, boys are left to their own devices or the example of rock stars, sports players or other popular figures. The military will impart an ethos of honor to even the most troubled youth, but only if he's really there to be changed and influenced by it. If he comes in with a closed mind, only there for the college money and job training, that's all he'll get out of it. Every military organization has its "Ten Percent" that do the absolute minimum to get by and can't be counted on to even show up on time, let alone serve as an example to others. But the Gunny Lindseys, the Captain Bryants and the Sergeant Major Woodses are out there. Men who, just by their bearing and "cool under fire," make us want to be better than we think we can be. We saw them do the right thing even when there was a price attached, and it made an impression. They set a standard that works as a sort of "What Would Jesus Do?" wristband, always reminding us to make important decisions based not on expediency or comfort, but on integrity and honor. [/soapbox] Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
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