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Posted: 8/9/2001 8:32:47 AM EST
Jerusalem Suicide Bomber Kills 15 By MARK LAVIE .c The Associated Press JERUSALEM (AP) - A suicide bomber detonated his explosives in a crowded pizzeria in central Jerusalem at lunchtime Thursday, killing at least 15 people including the bomber and at least five children, and wounding almost 90. The militant Palestinian group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing at the Sbarro restaurant, the second deadliest attack in the 10 months of Mideast violence. It was surpassed only by a June 1 attack on a Tel Aviv disco that killed 21 people and a suicide bomber. Israel's Public Security Minister Uzi Landau said the death toll was likely to rise. ``Data we have at the moment speaks of 17 dead ... but that's not final,'' he told Israel radio. Jerusalem police spokesman Shmuel Ben-Ruby said 15 people were killed, including the bomber. Five or six of the dead were children, according to Avi Zohar, head of Magen David Adom, the country's rescue service. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government has often hit back hard at Palestinian targets following terrorist attacks, but did not immediately say how it would respond. In other violence, an Israeli soldier was shot and killed near the West Bank town of Tulkarem, the army said. Shortly afterward, Israeli tanks shelled a security checkpoint in Tulkarem, lightly wounding three Palestinians. In Jerusalem, police said the suicide bomber set off his bomb inside the restaurant, part of a New York-based pizzeria chain and located at one of the city's busiest street corners. The restaurant and the streets were crowded with people on their lunch breaks at the time. In a scene of chaos and anguish, the injured were bleeding and sprawled in the streets, waiting for ambulances to arrive. Others cried and huddled on Jaffa Street, downtown Jerusalem's main artery. The restaurant was gutted by the blast, while shards of glass covered the street. Chairs and other debris littered the sidewalk. ``I heard a loud boom, and I came out of the store and saw a woman with a baby covered with blood,'' said Sarit Barashy, who was shopping nearby. ``The street was full of blood.'' Ilan Franco, the deputy police commander in Jerusalem, said the bomb was packed with nails, intended to make it more deadly. As ambulances rushed to the scene, police closed off surrounding streets, fearing more explosive devices. Israeli security forces had been warning in recent days that they were expecting Palestinian militants to attempt a major attack, possibly in Jerusalem. ``We are in a war, and in a war there are regrettably cases where you cannot prevent losses,'' said Jerusalem's Mayor Ehud Olmert. ``We will act together with the government of Israel to reach every one of those who is responsible for terror, to hit them and kill them.'' In the street outside the restaurant, some young Israelis chanted, ``Death to Arabs,'' and wore t-shirts that read, ``No Arabs - no attacks.'' In a busy market a few blocks from the scene of the attack, Israelis began beating up Palestinians, witnesses said.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:37:58 AM EST
A statement issued by Islamic Jihad in Beirut, Lebanon, and faxed to The Associated Press claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing, saying it was carried out by Hussein Omar Abu Amsheh, 23. It said the bombing was ``a part of our response to the cowardly assassinations'' that Israel is carrying out against Palestinians and that ``more (suicide bombers) are on their way.'' Islamic Jihad and the militant Palestinian group Hamas have carried out dozens of bomb attacks against Israeli targets throughout the 10 months of Mideast fighting. More than 550 people on the Palestinian side and more than 140 on the Israeli side have been killed overall. Israel's army has carried out lethal raids against Palestinians it says were responsible for attacks against Israel, and militant Palestinian groups had vowed revenge. Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said the Palestinian leadership was ``firmly against all acts of violence that target civilians.'' But he also claimed that Sharon ``provoked these attacks.'' ``Sharon is responsible for the latest escalation. He is the sole person who can bear the responsibility for the assassination of Palestinian civilians and leaders.'' Earlier Thursday, Israel's Foreign Minister Shimon Peres said Sharon's refusal to start negotiations with the Palestinians until all violence stops gives a veto to extremists. Peres, who favors maintaining a dialogue with the Palestinians even amid the current violence, said, ``If we say we won't talk under fire, it means that every gunman can decide there will be no dialogue.'' He said that he and Sharon ``have disagreements and arguments'' about the issue. Meanwhile, in the West Bank city of Nablus, a Palestinian security court sentenced Munthir Hafnaweh to death for collaborating with Israeli intelligence and aiding in the killing of a Hamas militant, Mohammed Madiny, on Feb. 19. AP-NY-08-09-01 1223EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:38:42 AM EST
19. 6 were infants. Savages.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:45:12 AM EST
Where is the honor in killing.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:46:15 AM EST
Two points stand out in my mind - 1. Just like Serbia / Albania, this battle has been going on for thousands of years, and is rooted in genetics. Until the genetics "go away" this battle will rage on for ever. ANYONE who thinks they are gonna solve this situation is either ignorant or arrogant. 2. While their methods seem severe to us, what you have in the Arab population is a mindset that is willing to die for what they believe. (The Jews are too, but as far as I can tell, to a lesser extent. The Jews have been "Westernized" too much. IMO.) In fact, their religion tells the Arab this will assure their place in their version of heaven. Pretty strong motivation, especially when they know all TOO WELL then truth of #1 above.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:46:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By satcong: Where is the honor in killing.
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Go ask a Muslim, he'll tell ya.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:50:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman: Two points stand out in my mind - 1. Just like Serbia / Albania, this battle has been going on for thousands of years, and is rooted in genetics. Until the genetics "go away" this battle will rage on for ever. ANYONE who thinks they are gonna solve this situation is either ignorant or arrogant. 2. While their methods seem severe to us, what you have in the Arab population is a mindset that is willing to die for what they believe. (The Jews are too, but as far as I can tell, to a lesser extent. The Jews have been "Westernized" too much. IMO.) In fact, their religion tells the Arab this will assure their place in their version of heaven. Pretty strong motivation, especially when they know all TOO WELL then truth of #1 above.
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So this makes it all well and good. Your point contradicts all the Israel bashers who blame the Jews for all the trouble and probably will find some way to blame this bombing on the Israeli's also.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:51:25 AM EST
It is basically a test of wills. On the one hand you have a people who beleive they will go to heaven if they die killing their enemy. On the ohter, you have a people who are getting soft. I can see one possible outcome here. Of course bulldozing people out of their homes and executing children doesn't help your cause.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:57:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 8:54:02 AM EST by garandman]
Originally Posted By LARRYG: So this makes it all well and good.
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I never said that. The fact that you can in some twisted fashion extract that from what I said is laughable.
Your point contradicts all the Israel bashers who blame the Jews for all the trouble and probably will find some way to blame this bombing on the Israeli's also.
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I'll agree with you here. In my experience, these things are NEVER EXCLUSIVELY to blame on either side entirely. The arabs shoulder their fair share of blame. But I will point out this - Even the 14th Century reformer Martin Luther stated "Everywhere the jews have gone in their entire history, trouble has followed." (g-man's paraphrase)
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:00:15 AM EST
Never ally yourself with savages. Just because you're not a savage doesn't make you "soft". I have no sympathy for savages, whatever their cause, ever. Be they Congolese chopping off the hands of children, or Palestinians beating and ripping apart an Israeli, while smiling. They are the enemies of Western civilization. I wish them only death.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:01:24 AM EST
Ok, pop quiz. Which side in this struggle does the following: Sends children out to throw rocks and petrol bombs at the others armed soldiers, then cries "murder" when they get shot and killed? Deliberately targets homes, restaurants, shopping centers, and bus stops which are very likely to be used by children and families? Uses child labor in its political offices, which are highly likely to be targeted by the enemy? Allows half a million people of the same ethnicity and religion as its enemy to remain and live peacefully within its borders? Has put off the rebuilding of its peoples greatest religious shrine for 34 years to avoid offending the religious sensibilities of its enemies? Practices free trade and a Democratic form of government? Has tried, convicted, and imprisoned its own people for killing the women and children of the enemy? Is not a tool of foreign extreamists from who wish to destroy everything in western culture that doesnt agree with their interpretation of the Koran? Now, after honestly answering all these questions, who do you think is the good guy here hmmm? Stop trying to blame the victim because you find dealing with the problem uncomfortable and just want it to go away.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:10:17 AM EST
wow, sabarro pizza is international. as for the suicide bomb, I never understood them. Why not leave the bomb in a bag under the table. Just set the timer for a short period (1 minute or so), just enough time to get out of the blast radius, but not enough time for someone to spot the bag and go "holy crap a bomb." Then you can bomb again another day. Or even better, try to find a non-violent solution. Killing innocents only makes people hate you more.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:13:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Never ally yourself with savages. They (Palestinians) are the enemies of Western civilization. I wish them only death.
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This to me shows a rather myopic view of the nature of the battle that rages over there, and of the several combatants. It seems to me you don't understand the Arab mindset, and therefore you condemn it. (insert weenie "IMO" here so as NOT to offend the oversensitive types) Yes, he killed women and children, but had the decency to orphan his own children. I deplore the methods, but I must give props to those willing to die for what they believe in. As I recall, us gun owners / freedom lovers USED TO applaud such dedication of purpose and solidity of resolve.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:18:28 AM EST
This religious conflict has been going on for a few thousand years. These religions are basically from the same tree but different branches. Indescriminate killing of non-combatants achieves no purpose except to create more animosity. I wish I had a solution.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:32:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By sharky30: wow, sabarro pizza is international. as for the suicide bomb, I never understood them. Why not leave the bomb in a bag under the table. Just set the timer for a short period (1 minute or so), just enough time to get out of the blast radius, but not enough time for someone to spot the bag and go "holy crap a bomb." Then you can bomb again another day. Or even better, try to find a non-violent solution. Killing innocents only makes people hate you more.
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If Arafats people did to the Israelies what Ghandi did to the British, simple sit down in the roads and sing "We shall overcome" while the international media watched. Then the Israelis would be fucked. But try to get a muslim man to do something that inglorious! There is no glory, in that, nothing that will get you into paridise. If they dont stop it with the child soldiers and the suicide bombings they are going to wind up being the victims of Genocide like in Chechnya. Which no one cares about for just this reason- they have behaved so badly in carrying out terrorist attacks against women and children inside Russia that no one in the West is willing to stand up and defend someone who behaves that barbaric a fashon- the opposite of the case of the Bosnian and Albianian Muslims. Remember, the Russians had been kicked out Chechnya during the 94-96 War, but Putin sent them back in in order to stop the kidnapings, robberies, and bombings that the Chechans continued to conduct in Russia, ostensibly as "revenge" for "atrocities" comitted by the Russians in the first war, but really in a effort to shake down Russia for money.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:39:21 AM EST
Major-Murphy: "Never ally yourself with savages. ...snippage... I wish them only death." . No really. The hypocrisy of this made the soda spurt form my nose.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:03:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By hielo: Major-Murphy: "Never ally yourself with savages. ...snippage... I wish them only death." . No really. The hypocrisy of this made the soda spurt form my nose.
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Why? What hypocracy? Killing is by itself not immoral, even by western standards. Aggression is immoral. Remember? "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" also has a converse "Do unto others as they do unto you" If you obey the first golden rule you WILL be victimised by parasites who would rather take advantage of others than make a living themselves. So your only defense is to make sure they dont get to do it a second time. The Palistinians are by and large being used by the Iranians and gulf oil lords like Osama bin Laden and others of his ilk. They beleve it is their duty to destroy all traces of Western culture from the lands that were once part of the great Muslim empire that stretched from Spain to India. And to restore Islam to what they beleve to be its original state, as practised by the Great Caliphs who immediately succeded the Prophet. This is why Arafats Fatah party cant stop the attacks, Hamas and Islamic Jihad arent run by him. Since he cant or wont fight other Palistinians to inforce his authority, talking with him is useless. What we are seeing here is the precusor of a inevitable clash between Western, secular society, and Islamic, theocratic society that is going to someday result in a long and bloody war in the Middle East. You cant even blame it on oil, because there is no oil in the Holy Land, yet that is where the epicenter of the conflict will occur. Of course, we know that to our cynical friend Mr. Hielo, all that matters is what he pays at the gas pump every morning, so he can amuse himelf as he sees fit.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:06:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By sharky30: wow, sabarro pizza is international. as for the suicide bomb, I never understood them. Why not leave the bomb in a bag under the table. Just set the timer for a short period (1 minute or so), just enough time to get out of the blast radius, but not enough time for someone to spot the bag and go "holy crap a bomb." Then you can bomb again another day. Or even better, try to find a non-violent solution. Killing innocents only makes people hate you more.
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well timers dont always work that and the bomber also beliefs that it is a great honer to die for his beliefs and he wil be rewared greatly for losing his life in the line of serfing his couse
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:07:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Never ally yourself with savages. They (Palestinians) are the enemies of Western civilization. I wish them only death.
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This to me shows a rather myopic view of the nature of the battle that rages over there, and of the several combatants. It seems to me you don't understand the Arab mindset, and therefore you condemn it. (insert weenie "IMO" here so as NOT to offend the oversensitive types) Yes, he killed women and children, but had the decency to orphan his own children. I deplore the methods, but I must give props to those willing to die for what they believe in. As I recall, us gun owners / freedom lovers USED TO applaud such dedication of purpose and solidity of resolve.
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There are pleanty of places where there are Israeli soldiers and no civilians to bomb. Why didnt he go to one of them, if all he was concerned about was giving his life nobally for his people?
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:12:58 AM EST
[url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/468764.asp?pne=msn[/url] Yeah it takes a REAL MAN to blow up innocent children and women! Lynn
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:18:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: ...if all he was concerned about was giving his life nobally for his people?
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Well, since I NEVER said that was "all he was concerned about" it would be rather foolish to answer your question directly. ( I suppose this is where the "Lbrl" part of your username comes in - putting words in my mouth [}:D]) I will however answer it indirectly, with a question - "How does a single peasant fight against a well-armed, thoroughly trained army?" Answer: With about $30 worth of explosives strapped to his body, in a Sbarro restaurant. Sure, it seems like a contradiction to you. But then, you aren't a single Arab peasant whose religious, personal, genetic enemy is well armed and trained.. Do I condome it?? Hardly. Can I explain it?? I think so.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:29:11 AM EST
Um, the Isrealis don't execute children unless a soldier firing a rubber bullet at a molotov coctail weilding arab minor is an execution. And the homes that were bulldozed were being used as cover for the Jordanian castoffs. I guess we should not have leveled Vietcong friendly villages acting as cover for the enemy in Vietnam. I personally think Jews as a people stink. However, I also believe God chooses such people to further show His greatness. He chooses us. Not vise versa. I believe God is on the Jew's side. That is why I respect them. God told Abraham I will bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee. It is a matter of faith. We are the greatest nation on earth and are Isreal's greatest ally. I don't believe those conditions are inseperable. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:29:42 AM EST
Well, this statement:
As I recall, us gun owners / freedom lovers USED TO applaud such dedication of purpose and solidity of resolve.
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Did seem to imply that this was a acceptble tactic. Suicide boming is a acceptable tactic for freedom fighters yes, but this choice of target is not. There are pleanty of checkpoints and patrols on the west bank to bomb where no children would get hurt. Of course it was also no accident that the target was a AMERICAN fast food chain. Although it is too subtle for our media to catch that is a meaningful statement to the Islamic far right. And the MSNBC link shows how much the foreign masters of Hamas care about their Palistinian cannon fodder- they couldent even get their Heros name right!!
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:37:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Well, this statement:
As I recall, us gun owners / freedom lovers USED TO applaud such dedication of purpose and solidity of resolve.
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Did seem to imply that this was a acceptble tactic. Suicide boming is a acceptable tactic for freedom fighters yes, but this choice of target is not.
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Dude, your tilting windmills here. IMMEDIATELY BEFORE my statement that you quoted, I said "I deplore their methods." How does "I deplore their methods" (my express statement) equate to condoning this as an "Acceptable tactic???""(that which you accuse me of)???? Sheeeeesh. Wake up, PLEASE.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:43:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By sharky30: wow, sabarro pizza is international. as for the suicide bomb, I never understood them. Why not leave the bomb in a bag under the table. Just set the timer for a short period (1 minute or so), just enough time to get out of the blast radius, but not enough time for someone to spot the bag and go "holy crap a bomb." Then you can bomb again another day. Or even better, try to find a non-violent solution. Killing innocents only makes people hate you more.
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Read the Islamic description of Heaven, and you'll understand why there aren't any shortages of volunteers to conduct suicide bombings. [url]http://www.geocities.com/islamicparadise/Heaven.htm[/url] Martyring yourself and killing infidels gets you and extra special place in Heaven, where you get to shag 75 virgins on arrival.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:44:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 10:43:06 AM EST by ArmdLbrl]
Ok, I accept that garandman, but it wasnt clear from this:
Yes, he killed women and children, but had the decency to orphan his own children. I deplore the methods, but I must give props to those willing to die for what they believe in.
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It was kind of unclear whether you were condeming the target or method of attack. Oh, and by the way, married men are rarely allowed, much less asked, to do suicide bombings, even in the Islamic world there is nothing decent about wantonly orphaning your family.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:56:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 10:54:51 AM EST by garandman]
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Ok, I accept that garandman, but it wasnt clear from this:
Yes, he killed women and children, but had the decency to orphan his own children. I deplore the methods, but I must give props to those willing to die for what they believe in.
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It was kind of unclear whether you were condeming the target or method of attack.
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In simplest terms, I am SOLELY giving a word of respect for the mindset that finds something in life worth dying for. That for which we are willing to die is what gives the MOST meaning to living.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:15:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Ok, I accept that garandman, but it wasnt clear from this:
Yes, he killed women and children, but had the decency to orphan his own children. I deplore the methods, but I must give props to those willing to die for what they believe in.
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It was kind of unclear whether you were condeming the target or method of attack.
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In simplest terms, I am SOLELY giving a word of respect for the mindset that finds something in life worth dying for. That for which we are willing to die is what gives the MOST meaning to living.
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Ok. Then that is something that we agree on. Sadly, to bring peace to the region, we are going to have to do something to one side or the other that is going to make us all disgusted with ourselves for the rest of our days. Or we can just keep things as they are and let this low level violence go on for the next five hundred years like in Ireland.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:18:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Sadly, to bring peace to the region, we are going to have to do something to one side or the other that is going to make us all disgusted with ourselves for the rest of our days. Or we can just keep things as they are and let this low level violence go on for the next five hundred years like in Ireland.
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I think that's a pretty good summation. There is NO easy solution. I'll add this tho - the solution WILL REQUIRE gaining an understanding of the Arab mindset. Most all I currently see by the media, and those in power (whether R or D) is the villification of the Arabs. And THAT will ONLY lead to more violence.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:48:32 AM EST
Unfortunately, this is one case that education gets you nowhere- and you are hearing that from a liberal. You can learn all you want about either side, its probably only going to make you like them both. Your still going to have to choose one side or the other. As Americans, seperated by 8,000 miles from both of them, we have the option not to choose and let things go on as they are- but that is not a moral choice, since it means playing with the lives of two weaker peoples. There have been times when, in frustration at the delimma this puts us in, that I have wished someone would put a B53Mod0 underneath the Temple Mound and turn the whole thing into the largest man-made hole in the world. But that isnt a realistic solution, for one thing they would probably both declare the crater holy and come and and fight over it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 12:24:55 PM EST
Update: Palestinian suicide bomber leaves wake of carnage By Deborah Camiel and Michael Carney JERUSALEM, Aug 9 (Reuters) - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed at least 15 people, including six children, and wounded about 90 when he detonated a nail-packed bomb on Thursday in a Jerusalem restaurant crowded with families. The worst bomb blast in Jerusalem since the Palestinian revolt began more than 10 months ago ripped apart the Sbarro pizza restaurant during the busy lunch hour, hurling glass, metal and bodies on to the street. Israeli government spokesman Dore Gold said 18 people had been killed but police later revised the toll down to 15. Two militant Muslim groups, Islamic Jihad and Hamas, claimed responsibility, saying the bombing avenged an Israeli missile strike that killed eight Palestinians in the West Bank city of Nablus on July 31, including two Hamas leaders. "All the glass blew out -- boom. I saw two dead people, one with brains spilling out of his head, another with blood pouring out of his nose," said 16-year-old Eliezer Vanzoari. "I started to help move the people, I was shaking all over," he added, blood covering his arms. Within hours of the attack, Palestinian gunmen killed two Israelis, one of them a soldier, in separate shootings in the West Bank. The events deepened a cycle of violence that has killed more than 650 people including over 500 Palestinians and about 150 Israelis. INTERNATIONAL OUTCRY U.S. President George W. Bush, leading international outrage, condemned the bombing and said Palestinian President Yasser Arafat must act now to arrest those responsible and take immediate, sustained action to prevent future attacks. Arafat, under fierce pressure as Israeli leaders met to weigh their response to the bombing, deplored the attack after U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell telephoned him, and called for both sides to show restraint. Arafat urged Israel to make a joint ceasefire declaration and to start implementing a U.S.-led truce-to-peacemaking plan intended to end the bloodshed. "I denounce the bombing attack that took place in West Jerusalem and I denounce all acts that harm civilians," he told Reuters. "I call on the Israeli government to immediately make a joint declaration for a ceasefire." In a similar statement broadcast on Palestinian television, he said the truce should start on Friday. Israel did not immediately reply to Arafat's demand but officials dismissed it in private. "Arafat is attempting to prevent an Israeli response (to the attack). If he really wanted a truce he would stop the terrorists from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad," said a senior diplomatic source. Raanan Gissin, a spokesman for Sharon, declined to say what plan of action the government would take in response to the bombing but added: "Israel is definitely going to respond."
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 12:26:51 PM EST
SCENES OF CARNAGE The bombing was the deadliest attack since a suicide bomber killed 21 people at a Tel Aviv disco on June 1 and both sides accepted a U.S.-brokered truce which has failed to end fighting. Police had been fearing and preparing for a big attack since Hamas vowed to avenge the Nablus missile strike on July 31. Bodies were left strewn over the pavement. Ultra-Orthodox body collectors used tweezers to pick flesh off two baby carriages sitting on the pavement outside the pizza restaurant. Police said the bomb was large and spewed out nails and other shrapnel which doctors in local hospitals said were embedded in the bodies of many of the wounded. The front of the restaurant was blown out, its red, green and white signs hanging limply from the front. "We saw bodies thrown all over the floor and people ran into my store dripping with blood," said Nava Perry from a shop nearby. Naor Shara, a soldier who was walking by at the time, said: "The worst thing I saw, which I think will haunt me all my life, is a baby that was sitting in a stroller outside a shop and was dead. After the explosion, the baby's mother came out of the store and started screaming hysterically." A crowd of angry Israelis gathered outside the restaurant at night, some of them chanting "Death to Arabs" and calling for an Israeli military strike. Others held signs saying "No to revenge" and "Revenge will feed the cycle of bloodshed." ISRAEL MULLS RESPONSE The blast dealt another blow to already slim hopes of ending the violence that flared when the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip erupted last September after peace talks became deadlocked. Each side accuses the other of fuelling the violence. The latest victims in the tit-for-tat violence included an Israeli soldier shot dead near the West Bank town of Tulkarm. Witnesses said Israel responded by firing tank shells at Palestinian security posts, wounding five Palestinians. Palestinian gunmen also killed a young Israeli woman and seriously wounded another near the Israeli farming community of Merav, close to the northern West Bank, police said. 15:56 08-09-01 [i]By the way, have I ever mentioned how much I HATE the 3500 character limit?- ArmdLbrl[/i]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 1:58:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 1:55:13 PM EST by ArmdLbrl]
This one is for Garandman, about understanding where the Palistinians are coming from: Palestinian bomber driven to despair, says family By Wael al-Ahmad AQQABA, West Bank, Aug 10 (Reuters) - A mixture of despair and determination drove Izz el-Din al-Masri to walk up to the counter of a Jerusalem pizza restaurant and blow himself up with a nail-packed bomb, according to his family. Family members said the 23-year-old Palestinian from a village near the West Bank city of Jenin had frequently spoken of becoming a suicide bomber. On Thursday he carried out that plan, leaving his father's Middle Eastern restaurant early in the day to head to the Israeli eatery packed with families sitting down to lunch. He killed 15 people, several of them children, and wounded dozens of others in the worst attack in Jerusalem since a Palestinian uprising erupted more than 10 months ago. The bombing was condemned in Israel and abroad as inhuman, but won praise among Palestinians. "This is a unique operation for its quality and success," his brother Eyad told Reuters. "He always spoke of martyrdom. Palestinians everywhere can now hold up their heads." Their father, Shuheil, said he was filled with pride and sadness over his son's act. "When I heard about the operation in Jerusalem, I did not doubt that my son did this," he said. "I will weep for him all of my life." The militant Islamic group Hamas said it ordered the bombing to avenge Israel's killing of two senior Hamas leaders and six other people in Nablus on July 31. Israel says the two Hamas leaders had been involved in attacks which had killed several dozen Israelis since the start of the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation. The dead suicide bomber's family said he had been deeply disturbed by that attack, as well as by Israel's crackdown on Palestinians since the start of the revolt, in which more than 500 Palestinians and nearly 150 Israelis have died. Israel says its security measures are needed to protect Israelis against bombings such as Thursday's and say their steps are taken in self-defence. "The Palestinians have no alternative to these (bombing) operations," Shuheil said. "We have no alternative way to reply to the Israeli aggression against our people." "I hope that many others follow him," he added. 18:39 08-09-01 I admit, Garandman, you seem to have a good understanding of this situation.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 3:16:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 3:25:18 PM EST by NH2112]
The land (West Bank, Gaza Strip, etc) is Israeli land. The Palestinians may have lived there before the country of Israel was formed, but thay have no claim on any of that land. Why not? Because they couldn't take it back by force of arms in 1948, 1956, 1967, or 1973. Saying that Palestinians have any claim on that land is like saying that Mexicans have claims on Texas, because they "used to live there" before Texas won independence in 1836 - it just doesn't work that way. Let's see how many people would take Mexico's side if Mexico, desperate to better its economy, began sending suicide bombers into Texas in an attempt to force the US gov't to cede Texas - referred to as the "North Bank" (of the Rio Grande) - to Mexico or allow illegal immigrants to set up their own towns or territories in Texas, where Texas and US law didn't apply. That's basically what the Palestinians seem to want - can you blame Israel for not going along with it? BTW, I am not an Arab or Muslim hater, and I think that when the day of reckoning comes Allah will have very strict words for those who did violence to innocents in his name. Islam may have strict, even harsh - by our standards - punishments for crimes, but we have to keep in mind that it was founded in a harsh environment, where a theft could result in someone's death. Charity, kindness to others, and protecting those who can't protect themselves are all tenets of Islamic faith - I'd look up the "Five Pillars of Faith" if I wasn't in a hurry - and the Islam that we see on TV today is likely a far cry from the religion Mohammed founded back in the 7th century. But I'm sure both Moses and Christ would be appalled at the state of Judaism and Christianity today, as well.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 3:27:55 PM EST
It has been rather eloquently said that both sides in this conflict are willing to die for what they beleive in. The Israelis and the Palestinians always have and always will be at war until the very end of time. Don't beleive that? Read your histroy, Heck, read your bible. It is what has been foretold thousands and thousands of years ago. I nor anyone else will calm this storm. When someone does (and someone eventually will mind you) then it is a sign of the end of times. Until that, day both sides will be willing to die for what they beleive in. Why is that so hard to understand for some of you? Do you not say they same thing when talking about RKBA and such? And, with that in mind do you honestly think that if we ever see the day when we must walk the walk that we speak of that non-combatants will not perish? If you think not then you live in a fantasy land and are not fit for the fight! Israel and Palestine are in a war. There are innocent victims that represent what each side hates. The same will hold true should we all ever be in the same position one day. Sad that women and children must die but to those Israelis and Arabs they are the women and children of the enemy and therefore are the enemy as well. What Americans think is inconsequential. They existed long before us. They will exist long after we are gone!
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 3:34:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 3:52:05 PM EST by ArmdLbrl]
Here is a picture of the man beleved to be the suicide bomber: [img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20010809/imdf09082001140026a.jpg[/img] Isnt that one of the M4's we gave the Palistinian Authority Police? CNN and ABC are actually using the prhase "Is war coming":[url]http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/wolf.blitzer.reports/[/url] CNN's man in Jerusalem has a slightly scary description of how the populace responded to this bombing: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/08/09/kessel.debrief.otsc/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 4:03:45 PM EST
Post from ArmdLbrl
Here is a picture of the man beleved to be the suicide bomber-
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What a hero! Surely Allah must have many things in store for such a 'holy warrior'! I hope what the Israelis have in store for the man's family back here on earth is a good old fashioned bulldozing of their home. But even that won't stop the next 'martyr' from seeking an Islamic Paradise by detonating a bomb in the presence of children. But it does ratchet up the cost of 'doing Allah's business!' BTW, the Saudis are probably sending a check for $10,000.00 US to the 'martyr's' family even now! Well then, let them rebuild their home with this money and then bulldoze it again! Eric The(Maranatha)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 4:50:10 PM EST
X-kill is sort of right. Although scenery is different the kind of fighting here is reminicent of how things used to be like in the Ohio and Tenessee river valleys untill after the War of 1812. When everyone who was trying to settle there lived in constant fear of rape and murder by Tories and Indians operating through British controlled Detroit and other forts along the Upper Mississippi- all of which were supposed to be abandoned and turned over to US according to the Treaty of Paris. And both sides have the same mind set, they have seen too many people they know killed by the other in attacks whos only purpose was to terrorize the other side into leaving the area. They can never trust the other, the only alternative is to destroy them or drive them very far away across some natural boundry.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:28:28 PM EST
I see rocket attacks in someone's immediate future.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:11:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ulysse_Nardin_1846: I see rocket attacks in someone's immediate future.
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Dude, buy the time you posted it had already happened...
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 3:42:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By hielo: Major-Murphy: "Never ally yourself with savages. ...snippage... I wish them only death." . No really. The hypocrisy of this made the soda spurt form my nose.
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There is no hypocrisy in my statement. Killing does not make one a savage, and you know that. Killing someone and then pulling out their entrails, laughing, smiling and doing a little dance, that's a savage. A few years ago, the Rwandans held mass, public executions of those who participated in the slaughter, in a Soccer stadium. Western journalists were invited to observe. When the executions started, it was no solemn affair. It was a carnival. The Rwandans were laughing, dancing around and smiling. The western journalists were shocked. They knew that this type of savage behavior only demonstrates and guarantees that the butchery will occur in the future. When I saw the Palestinians rip that soldier apart, smiling, covered in blood, I saw savages. ...and I wish them nothing but death. A civilized, just and serious death.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:00:37 AM EST
Who really cares how many women and children die over there? Not me. As long as oil continues to flow, they can do to each other whatever they will.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:07:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By hielo: Who really cares how many women and children die over there? Not me. As long as oil continues to flow, they can do to each other whatever they will.
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....you are a charming fellow. [:D]
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:16:24 AM EST
Charming? And you really care what happens to people over there? Ok.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:29:04 AM EST
hielo, If you don't care about what happens over there, what the hell are you doing even reading these messages, much less posting on this thread? Gas is plentiful, and somewhat down in price, so why don't you just stay off these threads until, and unless, gas goes up in price more than 25cents. Then you can come back on and bitch all you want to about those damn Israelis and how they're costing you soooooo much money. Or do you really have another agenda???
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:32:32 AM EST
Sure, I like humanity. I prefer that women and children not be slaughtered. Call me crazy, I guess...
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:17:45 AM EST
The Five Pillars of Islam: 1) Faith 2) Prayer 3) Concern for the needy 4) Self-purification 5) Pilgrimage to Mecca
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:17:46 AM EST
LOL, you guys crack me up. Gas is down here also, maybe a good flare-up of killing and carnage is what we need for another nickel drop in price. Go for it!
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 6:45:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By Ulysse_Nardin_1846: I see rocket attacks in someone's immediate future.
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Dude, buy the time you posted it had already happened...
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Shortly after my post, I shot over to CNN and saw the news. Something about F16's and missiles. Actually, I would have been very surprised if it didn't happen.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 8:57:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2001 8:56:02 AM EST by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By hielo: LOL, you guys crack me up. Gas is down here also, maybe a good flare-up of killing and carnage is what we need for another nickel drop in price. Go for it!
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Everything cracks you up Hielo, you are one sick puppy... if your grandmother was hit crossing the street you make a joke about it... and then ridicule the mourners at her funeral.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 9:03:52 AM EST
Yes, most things about life are funny, I am sorry that there are some humor impaired folks out there that want to bring everyone down. Don't have any living grandmothers anymore, but thanks for the kind thoughts.
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