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Posted: 8/6/2001 2:04:07 PM EDT
Right now I'm so confused about what rifle I should get. I like them both but I was raised on the 30-06 and always told about the lame 223 and how it was worth shit in Nam (This comes from 5 U.S.M.C grunts,4 Army grunt's,1 S.E.A.L member.)But I have started to like the little 223 and that is why I wanted one. Plus it was cheap for ammo mags and most where not crap rifles and you could get a lot of upgrades for the rifle. But now I'm told about DSA STG58 it has the ammo just about as cheap the mags are cheaper then the Ar-15 but the gun costs more and it's in 308win a round that I like a lot. Now I just want to know what you guys think would be the best buy. I'm going to be using the rifle for. 1.Battle rifle if anything ever happens. 2.Just a plinking rifle for the range. 3.Varmint or hunting rifle. 4.If I can Upgrade earthier one to a target rifle. 5.A defense rifle. Just tell me with what I just told you what would be the best gun to get in your opinion. If you need more info just say what you need and I'll tell ya. Thanks for your help guy's if it was not for you I would have gotten a crappy rifle by now and may have been turned off of gun's for a long time.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:10:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:11:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:11:39 PM EDT
Have you fired an FAL/variant yet? And not just the DSA rifles but any variant (L1A1, STG, preban, etc). I'm assuming you've already fired an AR.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:21:39 PM EDT
The AR15 certainly meets the criteria specified in items 2-5 on your list, with #3 being based on what you want to hunt. However, there is something to be said about .308 power and range. One things for sure: you can certainly lug around an AR with a lot of ammo a lot easier than you can a FAL or M1A, etc.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:24:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wadman: Have you fired an FAL/variant yet? And not just the DSA rifles but any variant (L1A1, STG, preban, etc). I'm assuming you've already fired an AR.
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I have only shot in 308 a Remington 700 PSS ,AR-10, M-14 copy and a M1A. I have not shot any of the other ones but was told by the person who owned the M1a and Ar-10 that he loved the way his FAL or STG/variant shot. HUNTER223 I have the money for a pre-ban but thats it. I would have no money for mags and ammo. I also think pre-ban's are just for show other then a flash hider and a bayonet lug what do they have that a post-ban does not.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:26:47 PM EDT
Get both, that way you won't have any regrets. For me it's always a question of what I'm going to get right now, I will eventually have every gun I want, I just get to pick up 3 or 4 a year. No one can tell you what to get, pick up and handle both and see which one feels better to you. My next decision is for a .308 between a FAL and a HK 91.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:28:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2001 2:26:12 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:30:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hellraiser: My next decision is for a .308 between a FAL and a HK 91.
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The HK 91 (well it was the G3) and the STG58 where the two 308 that I choose from and had gone with the STG58 because of parts and mags being cheaper.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:48:29 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 3:09:15 PM EDT
Wait till the Sunday of Labor Day weekend. Get yourself over to Buffalo Rock Range in Ottawa. There ought to be plenty of all three types for you to try out (ARs, FALs, HK91s) in whatever flavor you can think of. Perhaps the proof will be in the pudding.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 3:30:56 PM EDT
Tough call!! If this is your first rifle of this design(the dreaded assualt rifle bugaboo!) I would recommend an AR15 variant. I think every able bodied , competent male adult should have an AR [:)] It will be a good rifle to get proficient with. The .223 is easy & cheap to shoot. I don't think you'd really be making a mistake with the FAL either though. Get an AR now & an FAL as soon as you can afford it!! If you think you'll get an FAL later buy up some cheap FAL magazines while you still can.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 3:42:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 3:45:23 PM EDT
This is a NO BRAINER ! Buy the one that you LOVE the most , get a second job , then buy the other. That sure was simple.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:39:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Para069: This is a NO BRAINER ! Buy the one that you LOVE the most , get a second job , then buy the other. That sure was simple.
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Not when you putting in 96 hours a week at the place you work at now. Yes my job sucks and the pay does also.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:55:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:55:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:58:58 PM EDT
I carried an M-16 in Vietnam and it would kill 'em deader than a doornail. By an AR-15, it is the only one that fits all your criteria, besides ammo is sooooo much cheaper.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:01:14 PM EDT
The bitch of it is, you have to comprimise when going with either rifle. How big of an issue is wieght of rifle and ammo? AR has the major advantage here. What is the terrain like around you, and how good of a shot are you at long ranges? The Fal will reach out there, but do you actually have the need for six or seven hundred yard shots? Though no matter what the range, .308 has more power. I've weighed the decision myself, with alot of the same criteria as you, and have found the AR to fit my needs the best. The weight of the ammo being a big factor, and that I think the .223 is an adequate. Also, the AR rifle fits me like a glove. It's like an extension of me. There's no other rifle that I've shot that I feel more comfortable with. It just feels right. That alone makes it the right choice. Shoot them both and choose the one that feels the best to you.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:04:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cnatra: I think every able bodied , competent male adult should have an AR [:)]
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I like that idea
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:22:36 PM EDT
Paul they told me they liked the 308 because of a few reasons 1. Because of all the brush the 223 bullet would get knocked off course a lot of the time. 2. The 308 would take down the tree in front of you in about 20 rounds. A lot of the guys I talked to also used the M-60 Pig. I have also talked to a few Grunts that where in the U.S.M.C and Army now and they told me they loved the M-14 that they got to shot with. Maybe it is because they where in the middle east when they got them and they had to take the long shot's I don't know. They also said they would take the M-60 over the S.A.W also.They said it was more effective on stopping cars and trucks then the S.A.W was.I know nothing of these two weapons then what I was told by people who used them in combat. Yes they did say the M-16 was lighter to carry and also was the ammo and it was a lot more friendly with the recoil on full auto (I don't know what 308 rifle they used that did have full auto but it was not the M-60.) The place where I live well I'm on the east end of town and about 3 miles away from me is at least 35 miles of corn fields running east and more then that running North and south. West of me is mostly urban for about I'm going to say 10 miles. Then it goes back to corn fields for I don't know how far. maybe that will help out a little.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:24:26 PM EDT
I say AR for its versatility. I mean look at the multitude of uppers you can purchase. If i had my way I'd have: 16 inch Carbine 24 inch Kreiger Barreled space gun 50 BMG upper 458 Socom upper Then you would have an upper for just about any occasion. alphabeta121
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:32:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:35:21 PM EDT
alphabeta121 I'm also looking at that just and that is one thing that I like about the Ar-15 next time I got to Alaska I can take my Ar-15 with the 458 Socom upper.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:38:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: That being said if your not going to buy a Bushmaster, Armalite or Colt for an AR then go out and get the FAL. These are the only 3 I would consider reliable enough to trust them with my life.
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I don't know about that I have only heard good things about the RRA rifles. The one I shot was just as good as the Armlite I also shot that day. I don't know if you have heard anything bad about them if so please tell me i'd like to know .Thanks
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:46:22 PM EDT
Both should be on your list of must haves. The STG-58 is IMHO the best of the FAL variants out there. I have 4 FALs and 2 AR-15s and love them all.....more, more, I need more!!
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 8:16:28 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 9:47:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TRW: I have 4 FALs and 2 AR-15s and love them all.....more, more, I need more!!
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I suffer from the same condition [:D]
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 10:54:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2001 11:04:18 PM EDT by e8ght]
Buy both like me. But, since you want to know which ONE to buy, get The Right Arm Of The Free World first. Stock up on cheap mags and surplus ammo - based upon past history, they won't always be available at the same price. Then save up for the AR. The argument against the FAL is almost entirely based on weight. Lug one around for a few weeks in the bush with your hunting gear and, if you're an average north american male, you'll soon lose enough weight to compensate. Big guns impress the womenz. Which is, oddly enough, precisely why I'm awake at 2AM...[:D]
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 6:37:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 10:34:32 PM EDT
Forest thanks for telling me that I never heard of that before.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 11:06:04 PM EDT
I would avoid the AR15. Reasons: They tend to experience extraction problems when the actions are extremely dirty or in subzero weather or when they are extremely hot from firing many rounds. They also have trouble being reliable in sandy environments (The US Army actually issued plastic bags to keep the M16's in during desert storm so the rifle wouldn't jam from sand getting into the action). (2.) Yeah..they can be a "tack" driver..but it doesn't really matter since at long ranges the bullet (even the 75 grain VLD's ) experiences a significant drop in velocity, that when (IF) it does enter a body..the bullet wound is small since the jacket will no longer separate from the core..Also they get blown all over the place in a good cross wind. (3.) PENETRATION: a 30 caliber 175 grain or 150 grain FMJ round will penetrate through cover that would DEFEAT a 62 or 55 grain FMJ round that the AR15 shoots. (4.) the M16 USGI Mags are Aluminum, the lips are easy to wear out or bend or break. Whereas the Mags for the FAL are made out of STEEL. (5.) A lot of talk is made by the AR15 gun lovers about the wounding potential made by the little .22 cal bullet. Well it just so happens that 7.62 NATO ammo made by HIRTENBERGER will create wound cavities that are 60% LARGER than those created by either M855 or M193 FMJ ammo. Also..once velocity drops below 2500 fps..the wounding potential of the little 22 cal round goes down. (6.) yeah..you can carry more 22 cal ammo (but so what ? you can carry more 22 L.R. ammo than .223..) It will take fewer 30 caliber bullets to drop a large animal than .223 bullets... As for 30 caliber rifles..I think you should take a hard look at the M1A as well as the FAL (heck for that matter..even the M1 Garand..the damn thing shoots 30-06!).
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 4:09:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: (The US Army actually issued plastic bags to keep the M16's in during desert storm so the rifle wouldn't jam from sand getting into the action).
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The army also issued condoms to the D-Day invasion troops to keep water and mud out of the M-1. The put the condom over the muzzle. Big deal.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 7:37:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 8:44:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: Yeah AR-15s are real bad, they have only been the choosen rifle of the US military for almost 40 years (longer than the M1 & M14 combined). They have been adpoted by more countries and spec-ops group than the M14. Yeah they are loser rifles.
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Tell us: Did the AR15 successfully compete over the M14 during Field Trials in the 60's ? Yes or No. If No, why was it adopted ? Did it compete against ANY other small caliber designs during field trials ? Why is it that the gas impingment system used by the AR15 (also used on the Lungjmen rifle) was later abandoned by Eugene Stoner in favor of a piston ? How is it that the shorter sight radius on the AR15 (and even shorter radius on the M4) better than the longer sight radius on the M14 ? Does the .223 round offer better penetration through cover than the .308 round ? Does it have less windrift and greater kinetic energy than the .308 ? Oh..but it is lighter and cheaper ? Well so is the .22 LR. So I guess being ARMED with a RUGER 10/22 MUST be better than being armed with an AR15..right ? Oh..but AR15A2 (or M16A2) is lighter..than a standard issue M14..(well ONLY by a HALF pound). But..the M16 has been adopted by a lot of different countries..(well so has the AK47). As for countries such as Israel the Galil is actually a BETTER rifle but it does have trouble competing against the M16 when Israel can get M16's virtually free from the United States. Sorry I don't buy your arguement. The AR15 was an experimental design. Eugene Stoner later came out with BETTER rifles such as the AR180 or the Stoner 63. However the later rifles were crippled by the same thing..the anemic .223 round.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 8:59:48 AM EDT
Yep that sucky, anemic 5.56 really blows. That is why most countries are adopting it. the G36 is 5.56 and so is the galil, so what is the deal? and don't bring up that its a NATO round because so is 7.62.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 9:50:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: I would avoid the AR15. Reasons: They tend to experience extraction problems when the actions are extremely dirty or in subzero weather or when they are extremely hot from firing many rounds. They also have trouble being reliable in sandy environments (The US Army actually issued plastic bags to keep the M16's in during desert storm so the rifle wouldn't jam from sand getting into the action).
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If I was traveling through sand dunes, I'd want a plastic case for [i]any[/i] rifle, even an AK. The FAL, however, has a [i]real[/i] reputation for problems in the sand, which is why Israel dropped it.
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: (2.) Yeah..they can be a "tack" driver..but it doesn't really matter since at long ranges the bullet (even the 75 grain VLD's ) experiences a significant drop in velocity, that when (IF) it does enter a body..the bullet wound is small since the jacket will no longer separate from the core..Also they get blown all over the place in a good cross wind.
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Both the .30s and the .223s produce small wound channels at a distance. Both must intersect a vital structure to prove effective. A .223 75 gr HPBT (which is stabilized by a 1 in 9 twist, and fits in the magazine) catches less wind at 300 yards than .308 168gs bullets (fired from a gas gun).
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: (3.) PENETRATION: a 30 caliber 175 grain or 150 grain FMJ round will penetrate through cover that would DEFEAT a 62 or 55 grain FMJ round that the AR15 shoots.
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True. But it has been proven that small high vel bullets are better "brush busters" than bigger, slower ones. A more likely situation.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 9:51:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: (4.) the M16 USGI Mags are Aluminum, the lips are easy to wear out or bend or break. Whereas the Mags for the FAL are made out of STEEL. (5.) A lot of talk is made by the AR15 gun lovers about the wounding potential made by the little .22 cal bullet. Well it just so happens that 7.62 NATO ammo made by HIRTENBERGER will create wound cavities that are 60% LARGER than those created by either M855 or M193 FMJ ammo. Also..once velocity drops below 2500 fps..the wounding potential of the little 22 cal round goes down.
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True, but you have to get HIRTENBERGER. In 5.56, M193, M855, and civilian 69 gr police / target loads all have the same effect. It appears that the civilian 75 gr HPBTs have the same effect as well. And, the .30 cal stuff produces small wound channels when they loose velocity, as well.
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: (6.) yeah..you can carry more 22 cal ammo (but so what ? you can carry more 22 L.R. ammo than .223..)
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The difference is, .223 can do most of what .308 can do, while .22 lr can't. It is worth noting that as nations switch from .308 to .223, they have to make their long distance targets more difficult. Soldiers shoot better with .223 than .308, at least on average, even at distance. This means that [i]switching to .223 improves long range shooting![/i]
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: It will take fewer 30 caliber bullets to drop a large animal than .223 bullets...
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Well, I suppose so, in a statistical sense . . . The problem with .223 for big game hunting is the .223's lesser penetration in living tissue. What this means is that the guy with the .308 can take shots the guy with the .223 would have to pass up.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:26:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: (The US Army actually issued plastic bags to keep the M16's in during desert storm so the rifle wouldn't jam from sand getting into the action).
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The army also issued condoms to the D-Day invasion troops to keep water and mud out of the M-1. The put the condom over the muzzle. Big deal.
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In fact, they issued complete plastic bags for the landing. Probably the first plastic of that type the men going ashore had ever seen.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:36:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 10:34:02 AM EDT by DonS]
To answer the original poster's question: [b]Get the AR first.[/b] Then find a local range that shoots NRA Highpower (or, what I like even better, reduced range Palma), and compete, compete, compete! Buy the FAL later. .308 has some definite advantages over .223, mostly for big game hunting. But the AR will make you a much better shot. For these reasons: 1) It's can be used in NRA Highpower matches. 2) It's more accurate. 3) Ammo, specially accurate ammo, is cheaper. 4) Less recoil = easier learning curve. The only reason for getting a .308 first is for hunting, however I assume that that is not your priority, given your choice of military type rifles.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:01:11 AM EDT
love them all.....more, more, I need more!!
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TRW man you crack me up!dude you sound just like me cheers![beer]buy one of each.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:13:51 AM EDT
The reason why country's now adopt the 223 is because its the standard nato round and m16 mags are considered standard nato mags, so when your in nato, guess what caliber and mags your gun will take?
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:29:49 AM EDT
Tayous, Have you decided what to get?
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:47:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 11:45:08 AM EDT by Forest]
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:47:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:50:55 AM EDT
Half way there I found a nice rifle $729.95 + 10.00 Shipping Takes : BUSHMASTER .223 Cal Rifle -20” HB Target -comes equipped with optional M16 Muzzle Break -mil-spec’d chrome lined bore, m16A2 rear sight, case deflector , bolt hold open on the last shot and comes in hard carrying case. -10 rnd mag included -2 extra 30 Round Israeli Orlite mags also included.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:54:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:11:40 PM EDT
A2 are the ones that have the non-detachable carry handily right.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:15:31 PM EDT
Yes. Most folks call the flattops w/removable carryhandles A3. (not technically correct, but commonly used)
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:42:17 PM EDT
I may not get that rifle if it does not have the flat top. I like the flat top ones do to that you can add longer and more stuff to it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:58:07 PM EDT
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