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Posted: 8/6/2001 5:00:34 AM EDT
I just got a $90 ticket this morning. For what? Making a right hand turn from a freeway offramp, onto a 4 lane county road where there was a posted "No Turn on Red" sign. The officer was nice enough about it, but they basically had it setup like a speed trap. One car with eyes on, and then a chase car to nab you. I'm not disputing the fact that I made the turn, but I don't believe in the posting of the sign at that location. When I turned there were ZERO cars coming my direction. In other words, I was not pulled over for a safety issue, just to produce revenue for the city. What would you do in this situation? What should I expect if I go to court and explain that I do not believe in the police being used to generate revenue, and that the turn was not a safety issue? Any was to get out of this bogus ticket?
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:06:03 AM EDT
Pay it and save your time. I figure that I made so and so an hour and that I have to seat in court waiting for my turn (that will take the whole day) what do I come out with?
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:14:11 AM EDT
Hate to say it, but if you did make a right turn on red, and the "properly operating" three-phase traffic signal was indeed red, and there is a posted sign stating "No Turn on Red", then you are guilty. If the traffic court judge is sympathetic to your claim that this was not a safety issue but merely a way to generate revenue, you may get lucky. Also, (In NY City at least) it is up to the officer to prove that the motorist is guilty based on his testimony in court...basically what I'm saying is, "What if the cop fails to appear in court or his testimony sucks?"
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:18:13 AM EDT
You don't 'believe' in the sign????? I don't believe in speed limit signs either, but when I get a speeding ticket, if there is not a rule the officers have broken (most states have strict rules for speed detection device usage by city and county LE agencies) and I can't beat it on a technicality, I pay it. You don't 'believe' in the sign. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA. Please stop, my side is splitting. You saw the sign and you had to see the officers. You don't 'believe' in the sign. Oh, puullleeaaasseee.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:21:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2001 5:18:31 AM EDT by lordtrader]
My defense: Set up court date. Cancel court date 2days prior and reschedule. Go to court, if the cop is there; "Your honor, the red light just turned green as I was making the right turn. The officer must not have observed that due to the fact that I entered the intersection as it was turning green. It may have seemed from his vantage point that I ran the red lightsince it may not have seem that I slowed down. As I sait it had just turned green a split second I entered the intersection" I would argue the red light point instead of the entire ticket. Unless they have a video, its your word against theirs that the light was red. Basically lie your ass off.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:22:39 AM EDT
Call the local prosecutor. You are probably not going to "beat" the ticket, and judges who routinely hear traffic cases are well-versed in the kind of arguments people make, and usually will not cut you a break. The local prosecutors, however, have a lot of discretion. If you are nice, they will probably work something out for you.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:03:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:31:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:39:10 PM EDT
NO COMMENT.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:02:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:06:34 PM EDT
If this were a local road, you might have a chance IF you were to go to the town board and complain about the sign placement and get them to agree with you (no doubt after one of those expensive "studies")to take it down. At the state or county level, however,your chances are slim to none. Usually there are fixed rules for this type of sign placement statewide. Even if it were local jurisdiction for the sign placement, you would never get them to hear your concerns and contemplate acting on them before your court date so you could use this as a defense. Alot of arbitrary sign placement goes on locally. You would be suprised if you ever attend board meetings the amount of "soccer moms" and whiners that want to change the signs in your town, especially stop signs and speed limit signs. It's for the kids you know. The town I live in has had countless two way stops converted into four way stops for no reason except somebody wanted it that way. You'd almost think these stop sign placers worked for Midas, or some other brake shop and want you wear your brakes out more quickly. I think LT is right on this one, the sign was there, you are going to have to fib about whether the light was green or not and hope no in-car camera can prove otherwise. Did I mention you're likely to lose anyway!
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:10:54 PM EDT
I saw a guy disregard a no turn sign, he was hit by a school bus. Think of the kids. Signa are there due to visibility or traffic flow making it a hazard. Believe the sign.There is no place that you have to go in such a hurry that you have to speed or run stops.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:13:45 PM EDT
But in Jersey a sign has to comply with the law. as to height, visibility and if DOT granted permission to post it. if it violates any of the statutes, it doesn't count. When I was in Hoboken none of the stop lights were registered. By law they didn't exist. That might be your best defense.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:15:21 PM EDT
you can't fight the man unless you have money. I probably still have a 60 in a 30 ticket on my record and the fond memories of putting up road signs and mowing medians that it got me. Even though it was a 50mph zone I was in. I tried to argue this to the cop but I submitted because I kept getting the feeling he wanted to murder (or possibly rape?) my dumb ass seeing as we were out in the boonies. I went back out there sure enough the direction the cop was going 30, direction I was going 50, 10 over is not a moving violation here, this is what I was hoping for I took pictures and everything, judge didn't care I even offered to drive him out there and show him but I guess his withered old ass didn't want to ride with someone who drove as fast as me. and the really sad part is I would have gotten away from that fat-crumbs-in-his-moustache-crown-vic-drivin-PoS if I wasn't driving an unfamiliar car with those damned darkness sesning auto headlights, found me a good hidin' spot (honest officer I never did see your lights this was my destination all along!) right as he came back around and BAM the lights come back on. MAD I tell ya and this was like 6 years ago too.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:17:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: NO COMMENT.
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BULLSHIT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:25:49 PM EDT
oh and my post was really not advocating cop-bashing verbal or typed just that one fat PoS. I wouldn't want to offend anybody, especially if this guy is your fatass twin brother so in the interest of equality and fairness we'll say it's ok to talk sh!t about any real big FAT cops. or running from cops thats not good either, I definitely don't advocate that or ever have, see he hit his brakes before his lightbar and going around a corner I didn't know he hit his brakes for me and I saw no lightbar light up. so I just stopped at the normal spot I stop at after going around that corner and killed the lights and motor....like I always did.[;D]
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:42:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2001 7:45:59 PM EDT by Swatdog]
Originally Posted By lordtrader: My defense: Go to court, if the cop is there; "Your honor, the red light just turned green as I was making the right turn. The officer must not have observed that due to the fact that I entered the intersection as it was turning green. It may have seemed from his vantage point that I ran the red lightsince it may not have seem that I slowed down. As I sait it had just turned green a split second I entered the intersection" ..... Basically lie your ass off.
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Now that is a hell of a thing for you to advise someone to do. Before you provide testimony in court you have to take an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth truth, and nothing but the truth. Gentlemen of Texas do not violate their oaths, Sir. In your post above you have advocated perjury and downright dishonorable behavior. Telling a fib to an officer on the side of the road is one thing; lying under oath is quite another. I hope you realize the seriousness of your suggestion here. God help you if I ever catch you lying in court and I am able to prove it.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:43:53 PM EDT
Was the sign before you made the turn? OR Was the sign after you made the turn? (MMMMMMM) AND Was the sign clear and unabstructed(clear view)? Basically if the sign was clear and unabstructed then, your guilty and I don't see a way out. Sorry dude. Once your front tires enter an intersection or building line when a traffic light is red, it's considered "disobeying a red light", in NY anyway.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 7:45:11 PM EDT
.......But 90.00, holly crap!!!!
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 8:14:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 11:06:20 AM EDT
Ever consider a plea bargin? It is not just for the TV news shows. If the right turn was the only citation issued then that will be all you have to work with. Get a court date. The situations above where the officer doesn't show still apply. If the officer shows you can offer to change your plea to guilty if he will a) reduce the charge on the citation to one with a lower fine, b)recommed specific sentencing to the judge. If I were going to court with you and you had a relatively clean driving record I would offer to have you pay the $50 court fee (although in our court the court fee on a plea is equal to the cost of the ticket) and I would recommend to the judge that if you maintained a clean driving record for 6 months the city would not report the citation to DMV. The City gets their fine or a part of it, you get a clean driving record for points and insurance IF you avoid other moving violations. The citation plea changes to a "no contest" and it turns into a dismissal at the end of 6 months. If your driving record is spotless I will usually reduce it to a warning if you go 90 days without a moving violation. The city gives up something, and you give up something. The city gets something and you get something. Not usually a bad deal. ymmv pat
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 11:52:42 AM EDT
I passed a parked Colorado state police Lumina while doing 140mph. At that speed all I saw was two sets of mirrored glasses snap in my direction. At that speed I was only in Colorado for another 7.5 minutes so I kept the hammer down. I fought a ticket during christmas break from college in early 1992 and requested a fast track court date as I was returning to school out of state. Prosecutor screwed up the officer subpena and I won. Oh, yeah, the judge scolded me and said while it wasn't in the best interest of the county to let me off she had no choice. (bitch). I drive the speed limit religiously now and enforce really dumbass offenders myself. For example, yesterday I observed two motorcycles riding wheelies at 85+ in an area plagued by fatal accidents. My point is, don't get caught. If you get caught don't fight unless you can throw the system a curve. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 12:01:13 PM EDT
aw heck here I go again...this is Joe dirtbag again....does anyone else see what is being said here.....You broke the law but if you give us money we will let you off.....now tell me again how important the safety issues are and how it's for the children....It is a racket to pay for the new court building and the judges new explorer and his vacation in colorado....If it was really about THE LAW, it would be open and shut...but grease some palms and it all goes away......horsefeathers
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 2:16:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 2:14:50 AM EDT by Invictus]
HKer, Whatever you do, do NOT visit this site: [url]http://www.motorists.org/[/url] As they will give you advice, tips and strategies on fighting traffic citations. This of course is wrong as anytime you attempt to fight a ticket it is flagrantly disrespectful of authoritay!!! You should consider yourself lucky the LEO's didn't throw a beating your way before they ticketed your non-traffic-sign-obeying behind!!! Just learn how to respect and do EVERYTHING that those in authority positions tell you to do, and your life will become so much easier! If everybody just did what the authoritay figures told us to do we would be in a paradise, kinda like Cuba! rDAm
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 3:36:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HKer: I just got a $90 ticket this morning. For what? Making a right hand turn from a freeway offramp, onto a 4 lane county road where there was a posted "No Turn on Red" sign...... I'm not disputing the fact that I made the turn, but I don't believe in the posting of the sign at that location.
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Pal, you've got the cart in front of the horse. The time to and place to discuss whether or not there should be a "NO TURN ON RED" sign at that intersection is NOT in traffic court with a ticket in your hand!! You knew you were wrong when you did it. Pay the fine & move on. To those who criticized the advice to try to lie your way out of it, I pose a simple question: Ever heard of a LEO lying on the stand????? Yea, right. Thought so!! The cases may be few and far between, but it only takes a couple of ya to put doubt in citizens minds.......
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 4:55:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 4:59:44 AM EDT by lordtrader]
As far as beating tickets, I can count 6 traffic ticket since the age of 18. All I have gone to court. 3 of which the officer showed up. 1 of which I lost, you know why? The officer lied. He said he was on the far right lane, when he was on the far left lane. The ticket was for running a red light. My defense was he could not see if the light turned red cause of his position. The point is that it is done in court all the time. Facts are manipulated to suit the defendant or plaintif. I am just making the odds even. Maybe I should not have said to lie your ass off, but rather, argue a point that you can win. A point that is hard to contest but is relevant to your case. Sign is easy to prove. Was the light red or just turned green. That is a question worth asking. Did it?
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 5:02:28 AM EDT
I understand exactly what you're saying, LT. What's the saying, "When in Rome....?"
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