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Posted: 8/2/2001 3:31:42 PM EST
and some major pride swallowing. our previous discussion actually held two discussions. whether women could ever be good soldiers and whether they should be there regardless of the answer to the first question. for those that are opposed to women in the armed forces period, what is your opinion of traditionally female roles? i'm thinking particularly of nurses and similar positions. i only ask because the show "china beach" was just on the history channel. and given that several of you have stated that "support" jobs are no longer safe and any of them are almost equally likely to be engaged in some form of combat, how does that affect the traditionally female roles? what about a medic pilot? only male? for those having served, particularly in combat positions, do the same problems exist in this scenario? why or why not? FWIW, i'm not trying to stir things up or re-kindle the argument. i'm genuinely interested in the topic and would like your input. none of the articles i read this evening discussed that side of the equation. if one opposed women in the military because of the break-up of unity and comradship and loyalty, not to mention the current system's tendency to reward based on gender, does this same opinion apply to these other traditionally-female roles?
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 3:34:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 3:37:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Striker: I'm not trying to derail your thread ARLady but..Indiana????
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what about it?
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 3:45:00 PM EST
Hey, my mom was born in Indiana and raised in Iowa. I like that area. ARLady, are you soliciting opinions regarding careers historically held by women? What are you after?
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 3:49:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2001 3:51:06 PM EST by black-guns]
As I see it, if you believe in the holy bible, women should never go into combat.....[:)]........add to this....some women would no-doubt make the best fighter pilots, excellent battle planners etc. HOWEVER....maybe it`s just "old school" BUT....that`s part of what is lacking in this country, looking back in time, today.....there really is NO NEED for it.....I personally, am a supporter of womens abilities.....(very succesful WOMENS softball coach)...but we need to keep our moral fibre intact, and there is only ONE-WAY to do that....some of you know EXACTLY what I mean!.........[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 3:49:30 PM EST
let me try this again. when the blood stops boiling and actually reaches my brain instead of steaming out my ears, sometimes i realize that i'm not always as clear about something as i thought i was. i still think that a female can be a good soldier and simply being female does NOT disqualify her. however, in researching the other points made by those who've served, i'm rethinking my stance on certain things. given the current climate, i'm thinking a lot of you are right about females in the military at all. in a perfect world, she'd could be a great soldier, no different from any other soldier. but, yeah, i know, not a perfect world. hey, my cooler head and smarter people are prevailing. [:D] now, can anybody answer the question?
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 3:54:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By black-guns: As I see it, if you believe in the holy bible, women should never go into combat.....[:)]
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one of the articles i was reading was mentioning this. i guess some bigwig catholic guy said that catholicism doesn't have anything specific against women in the military/combat. but it didn't cite anything specific that pointed one way or the other. do you know of any? i'm not after anything. i've calmed down, regrouped, and am trying to get educated. i know that women have served in/with (not really sure which applies) the military for awhile. i was just wondering what the take was on those that are present in roles like nurses, secretaries, etc.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 3:58:24 PM EST
Let me start by saying I have never served in the armed forces. However, my opinion on this matter is; While many women do not lack of spirit and desire, too many times the physical demands of combat situations are beyond the physical capabilities of most females. Other cultures have employed women as snipers, pilots and such where physical strength is less emphasised and "I" see no wrong in this practice. IMHO
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:05:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By JonnieGTyler: Let me start by saying I have never served in the armed forces. However, my opinion on this matter is; While many women do not lack of spirit and desire, too many times the physical demands of combat situations are beyond the physical capabilities of most females. Other cultures have employed women as snipers, pilots and such where physical strength is less emphasised and "I" see no wrong in this practice. IMHO
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Johnie, with all do respect sir, that is wrong.....I know women who will kick your ass big time!!!!........[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:08:29 PM EST
All I can say is that I wish there were women on board ships when I was in. Seriously, a woman should be given the chance to do anything she wants, BUT the standards should not be changed just to accomodate a woman. I am referring mainly to tasks that require physical strength and stamina. I will, however, temper that with this statement: ARlady, whether it is right or wrong, most guys look upon women as someone that we should protect and defend and thus, we worry about women in combat. If captured, they would face torments and acts that men usually would not have inflicted on them. I am referring mainly to rape. I really think this is what bothers most guys.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:08:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:13:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By black-guns:
Originally Posted By JonnieGTyler: Let me start by saying I have never served in the armed forces. However, my opinion on this matter is; While many women do not lack of spirit and desire, too many times the physical demands of combat situations are beyond the physical capabilities of most females. Other cultures have employed women as snipers, pilots and such where physical strength is less emphasised and "I" see no wrong in this practice. IMHO
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Johnie, with all do respect sir, that is wrong.....I know women who will kick your ass big time!!!!........[:)]
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And I just might enjoy it. [;)] What I had in mind was some of the hard, extreme dirty work involved in combat situations. I grew up around farm girls and know many women can carry a heavy load. Plus I have worked an auto parts counter with female co-workers. It was always fun to turn one of the @sshole customers who ignored the girls over to them for assistance. Just because she's pretty does'nt mean she ain't smart or strong. I know better.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:14:20 PM EST
ARlady.....Let`s forget about the "catholic" thing, or anything secular.....my feelings are that you have some apathy towards discrimination, and I have to wonder if possibly it is due to your envioronment.....YES it exists...no doubt....HOWEVER...we do live in a land where it can EASILY be overcome/bypassed....IF you want to do that.....I personally live in a envioronment where I see people...(women....asians....BLACKS.....natives.....HANDICAPS.....whatever..)...who have the LUXURY of deciding whether or not to have the BALLS to make thier lives what they want, and to RISE ABOVE the bullshit.....believe me, I see both sides.....[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:16:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Seriously, a woman should be given the chance to do anything she wants, BUT the standards should not be changed just to accomodate a woman. I am referring mainly to tasks that require physical strength and stamina. I will, however, temper that with this statement: ARlady, whether it is right or wrong, most guys look upon women as someone that we should protect and defend and thus, we worry about women in combat. If captured, they would face torments and acts that men usually would not have inflicted on them. I am referring mainly to rape. I really think this is what bothers most guys.
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i agree on both parts. which is why i'm starting to turn around on my opinion. but now i'd like to get a better picture of the whole thing.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:21:34 PM EST
Let me go back a good number of years, when I heard this "girl" that I went to high school with talking "womens-lib"....my opinion was....if she can R&R and repair a truck tire, on the shoulder of the interstate, same as me, then I will listen to her with respect......otherwise....SHUT THE F**K UP!........that`s my take on it.....and yeah....even though I`m older now, and can still take care of myself, I DO know women who can kick my ass big time!.......[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:22:10 PM EST
I didn't get into the original thread. I think I'll spout off now. What the hell. Pride, ego and ideology are the main "reasons" many believe women shouldn't, or are incapable, of being soldiers. I'd be more then happy to have my wife back me up with an AR-15 in a "situation". Here's a little propoganda for ya. Some of it's crap. A lot of it's not. [url]http://www.gendergap.com/military/Warriors.HTM[/url] [url] http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/womenvik.html[/url] I'm sure for many of you, it'll be like clicking on the HCI link. [:D]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:26:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By black-guns: ARlady.....Let`s forget about the "catholic" thing, or anything secular.....my feelings are that you have some apathy towards discrimination, and I have to wonder if possibly it is due to your envioronment.....YES it exists...no doubt....HOWEVER...we do live in a land where it can EASILY be overcome/bypassed....IF you want to do that.....I personally live in a envioronment where I see people...(women....asians....BLACKS.....natives.....HANDICAPS.....whatever..)...who have the LUXURY of deciding whether or not to have the BALLS to make thier lives what they want, and to RISE ABOVE the bullshit.....believe me, I see both sides.....[:)]
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you're barking up the wrong tree. i have [i]antipathy[/i] towards discrimination because more often than not it's based on stupidity, ignorance, or just plain meanness. i particularly dislike it when a whole host of assumptions are made about a person's abilities because her brain isn't between her legs. but that's not where i'm going with this question. i appreciate the concern, but i don't need the lecture. i want to know more about this from those who are there. i feel i have a good grasp of what the opinions are regarding the roles women were allowed to take after integration, the traditionally male roles. now, i want to take it further and see if some of the same problems/concerns/opinions exist for the traditionally female roles.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:36:54 PM EST
As I see it, if you "don`t need the lecture" then you are closed minded to the issue and will never find the answer to your question........so then, you need to be continually aggravated/fed by the male ego issue that you claim to have a problem with....and are are apparently posting to feed the apparent personal need to rant on the male/female difference that will exist forever...........[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:40:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By LARRYG: All I can say is that I wish there were women on board ships when I was in. Seriously, a woman should be given the chance to do anything she wants, BUT the standards should not be changed just to accomodate a woman. I am referring mainly to tasks that require physical strength and stamina. I will, however, temper that with this statement: ARlady, whether it is right or wrong, most guys look upon women as someone that we should protect and defend and thus, we worry about women in combat. If captured, they would face torments and acts that men usually would not have inflicted on them. I am referring mainly to rape. I really think this is what bothers most guys.
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Larry....the "protect" thing is NOT an issue with today`s young people.......
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:52:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By black-guns: Larry....the "protect" thing is NOT an issue with today`s young people.......
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Yeah, you're right. I was just thinking of us old farts.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:56:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2001 5:00:23 PM EST by ARlady]
Originally Posted By black-guns: As I see it, if you "don`t need the lecture" then you are closed minded to the issue and will never find the answer to your question........so then, you need to be continually aggravated/fed by the male ego issue that you claim to have a problem with....and are are apparently posting to feed the apparent personal need to rant on the male/female difference that will exist forever...........[:)]
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how do you equate not needing a lecture to being closed minded? how about, i've heard it all before. been there, done that, got the t-shirt. i don't need the lecture because it wasn't an issue until you started posting this kind of crap. seems to me you want to feed the male vs. female animal on this board. try the other thread. so take the "she's got to prove her worth to me" attitude somewhere else. it's not appreciate here and certainly isn't helpful. edited to add: i'm searching for an answer to MY question now. but some people can't stay on topic. the generalities of the existence of discrimination don't interest me at this point, but as soon as i get an inkling to talk about them, you'll be the first to know. i don't need your lecture on anything to able to seek the answers for myself.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:56:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By black-guns: Larry....the "protect" thing is NOT an issue with today`s young people.......
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Yeah, you're right. I was just thinking of us old farts.
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YES WE ARE.........MAYBE she should give "us" a little more than an arguement...???.......[thinking]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 4:57:48 PM EST
But what happens when "she" has to use the piss tube, or take dump on the side of the trail.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:02:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By ARlady:
Originally Posted By black-guns: As I see it, if you "don`t need the lecture" then you are closed minded to the issue and will never find the answer to your question........so then, you need to be continually aggravated/fed by the male ego issue that you claim to have a problem with....and are are apparently posting to feed the apparent personal need to rant on the male/female difference that will exist forever...........[:)]
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how do you equate not needing a lecture to being closed minded? how about, i've heard it all before. been there, done that, got the t-shirt. i don't need the lecture because it wasn't an issue until you started posting this kind of crap. seems to me you want to feed the male vs. female animal on this board. try the other thread. so take the "she's got to prove her worth to me" attitude somewhere else. it's not appreciate here and certainly isn't helpful.
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Now I have to say YOU are "barking up the wrong tree".....you have simply not heard a word of what I`ve said....suggest you CAREFULLY read the preceding posts. Then you can confirm the fact that you are one of either....a DIE HARD FEMINIST.......DRUNK.....nothing more than a TROUBLEMAKER .........you figure it out.....
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:06:45 PM EST
I see nothing wrong with women in the military, just not in roles that involve combat.I think there is just something built into women that makes them want to help & safe people where men have that built in aggressive instinct to kill & maim.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:06:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By xanadu: But what happens when "she" has to use the piss tube, or take dump on the side of the trail.
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Xanadu=Olivia Newton John[>:/] sgtar15
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:09:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:10:29 PM EST
By the way miss "trekkie".....you can use that t-shirt to wipe your butt, or whatever bodily functions are "in need" this month.....[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:15:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:17:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By NYshooter: I see nothing wrong with women in the military, just not in roles that involve combat.I think there is just something built into women that makes them want to help & safe people where men have that built in aggressive instinct to kill & maim.
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IF you knew some of the ruthless bitches I know, you`d change your mind right quick....NOT in a n.y. minute.........much sooner...[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:19:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:25:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2001 5:21:42 PM EST by black-guns]
O K...last entry on this stupid post........Would I trust a woman in the foxhole next to me?....YES....Do I think she should be there?......NO
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:35:09 PM EST
This is more a debate of partisans. Combat is about destroying people, equipment, demoralizing and at the same time conserving your assets. Sure women can kick my ass. Mostly because in training I hold back and underestimate them. With that in mind can women turn of their morality switch and kill on command no questions asked? Can women for instance move into a position where they can shoot an oil storage tank causing a fire and when the firemen come to put out the fire can she shoot them? When the police come can she pick out the officer kill him, the radio operator and then systematically kill everyone in the squad? Can she laze a school because the enemy has it’s headquarters their even though she can see children being used as human shields in the building? These are the hard questions most men cannot answer in the affirmative. It is easy to react to an assault but to coldly kill and destroy is something that is I personally believe is beyond almost all women (thank God)! After we can prove this then we can worry about how much s*it she can hump (that she doesn’t need) or if she can drag my wounded 275# ass across broken ground.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:36:21 PM EST
........[>(]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:40:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:44:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:44:34 PM EST
Typical woman......start an arguement..walk away!!!!!!!!!!!1[:)]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:44:44 PM EST
I am not talking about vicious or malevolent women (I know known my share of them to). Can women systematically kill as a professional without personal feelings?
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:48:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:51:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:53:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:58:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 6:17:38 PM EST
It would be a mistake to underestimate the capabilities of over half the people on this planet. "Not capable of cold blooded killing" - Ask the victims of the women Soviet snipers in WWII. Everything is different in peacetime. We fall back on the masculine/feminine roles we grew up with. Remember those are "roles", not to be confused with actual capabilities. Just about anyone is capable of setting up an ambush and putting a bullet in your brainpan given the right incentive. Hiking and carrying equipment,... get real. All it takes is exercise, training and some determination. If a man or woman is trained well enough and can keep a cool head under pressure. I'd be happy to have them on my team. If not, I don't care what the sex.... stay outta my foxhole. This is a good debate topic though, sorry I missed the first one.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 6:22:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf: What Troy said well can be summed up thus: Men, in the aggregate are expendable, and women, the fount of society are not. That is how men were raised and bred since the dawn of the human race, and no amount of societal influence will alter men (and Women) from their time-honored roles.
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Hi raf! I would say the roles they play are directly influenced by the society of the time. There have been several societies throughout history where women were fighters as well.
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 6:24:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 6:56:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 7:00:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 7:24:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf: Hi you! tired now, seeya soon.
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Whiney Bitch!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 7:32:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/3/2001 6:11:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/3/2001 6:14:12 AM EST by nko51]
Would military woman object to this idea. Since men and woman together don't get along in a unit, division or Military branch, would women be willing to say start their own unit/s such as say the women's version of the 9th Infantry Div, 101st Airborne, 173rd Airborne, 4th Infantry Div, 1st Calvary Div. This way the men can have their divisions and the women can have their's. Now here's the kicker, the women's division/divisions would be sent in first and then assisted if needed by the male divisions. If this does not sound good then there is the one of many reasons why males are againest women being in their units. If you cannot stand alone chances are you will not stand together. [uzi][thinking][heavy]
Link Posted: 8/3/2001 7:09:32 AM EST
nko50 It wouldn't work. In any sort of major conflict you would have to combine Disvisons Regiments whatever. What do you propose a girls and boys locker room type of base??? This is if for GI Jane's this side is for GI Joe's??? It just isnt feasable. I agree with Troy on his statment about women fighting in their countries. They are defending loved ones and their country. We all know that even in nature maternal instict will turn an unagressive creature into a killer. In my opion I don't think women should be in combat situations. Most every honorable man would do everything in his power to protect a woman. It's just how we are taught from an early age. This ends the rantings of a mad man. We now return you to your regularly schedualed string. [sniper]
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