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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 7/28/2001 2:55:05 PM EDT
OK, pick your own SHTF situation. Be it local: riots, earth quake, extended power outage, blizzard closing everything OR TEOTWAWKI. Any such situation can force you to protect your family & home/apt from looters/other hungry people, ect. So, would a full auto weapon provide you an advantage in such a situation? For example, FA is an excellent tool for multiple opponents within, say, 50yds BUT to own one legally, a bunch of BS paper work is required and it eats precious ammo (if resupply is not possible). Is the trade off worth it? I own a few C3 guns, so you can tell my answer, but is it worth the trade for anyone else or am I just on crack [>:/]
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 3:03:48 PM EDT
Your just on crak.[:D] Naw, unless you had many friends with you and you were under some sort of heavy firefight than FA will come in handy but if it were just me I would keep it set to semi and shoot when needed. Other wise you will just run out of ammo and "they" would just kill you after you were empty.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 3:04:42 PM EDT
Full-auto weapons are useful if you're in a firefight and backed up by a few other people, but for one man in a home defense scenario? Well, ripping off a burst might scare off some vultures, but they really eat ammo. I'd rather miss with one round than six. I think a "normal capacity" sport-utility rifle and aimed shooting is going to be more effective. Ideally it would be a carbine if you're actually doing home defense - close quarters combat kinda rules out 24" barrels. And carry a sidearm. They might get inside the radius of the barrel of your long gun while you're reloading. My 2¢. Flame away[pyro]
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 3:06:52 PM EDT
I'm not really qualified to answer- it's not like I'm a infantry soldier or a cop. However, for what it's worth it has always been my philosophy that well-aimed rifle fire is the most effective tactic in combat. If you go NFA and do all that paperwork, who do you think the Feds will go for first when they ban guns? Besides, if you really need a full auto machine gun, then wait until the mythical SHTF scenario happens and stick a 1911 in the ear of an enemy holding one.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 3:07:06 PM EDT
I personally don't see any advantage of them in the hands of normal people. In the first place I don't have the ammunition reserves to blast full auto. In the second place I can shoot my Ar and my Mini-14 nearly as fast as a full auto because I've got fairly light trigger pulls on both of them. Anyhow, I'm more of an aim and shoot guy, not really a spray and pray guy. Unless you just have money to blow, which I don't, I wouldn't suggest full auto. Too much money and you can bet the ATF will be watching your every move. Not to say that you'll be doing anything illegal, I just don't like that whole idea of it. Matt
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 3:14:42 PM EDT
I own an M4, a Vector & a mac, along with a few sport utilities. I won't say a SHTF situation is the reason I purchased the ammo burners, but it might prove useful to have the capability if you ever needed it. I guess thats the interesting part with SHTF...you don't know what will happen. As far as paper work, I didn't really care much. Its a pain, and BS as far as I'm concerned, but easy enough to do. Provided you're in a free state [:)] Yeah, the govt knows where the guns are, but I figure if they really want them, they'll get them. If I were in a SHTF situation, I (and Mrs. MGNiko) would use aimed semi fire, unless FA was absolutly needed, ex: group storms into house or something like that. Interesting question though.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 3:15:02 PM EDT
FA would only be advantageous in close quarters urban combat, IMHO. There a sub-machinegun could really come in handy.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 5:51:05 PM EDT
FA would be cool, but not when ammo supply is an issue. I can imagine a scenerio where FA would acually saves lives. If attacked by a mob you pick the leader and put 30 holes into him. The mob sees the grizzly scene and decides to rethink their attack. If you were limited to semi, you might have to shoot 3 or 4 of them before they took the hint. Far fetched, but as good of an excuse as any to own C3. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it...
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 6:00:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mejames better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it...
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I agree. Shoot, some of y'all act like you have to pull the trigger and are not allowed to release it . sheesh. GG
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 6:27:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 7:09:06 PM EDT
... Besides, if you really need a full auto machine gun, then wait until the mythical SHTF scenario happens and stick a 1911 in the ear of an enemy holding one.
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Good point. If you have any kind of rifle or a pistol and some guts - You'll have a FA if you want one. But I'm still not sure where the "S" is coming from.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 7:22:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru:
Originally Posted By mejames better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it...
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That is the logical conclusion that I came to myself. I agree. Shoot, some of y'all act like you have to pull the trigger and are not allowed to release it . sheesh. GG
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Yep, after minimal practice one can easily shoot 2rd bursts or empty the mag with the M4. The Uzi is even easier & makes a great CQB weapon. Nothing in FA shooting says you HAVE to dump the entire mag at one time.[:P]
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 7:32:55 PM EDT
[img]www.mcuzi.com/imbroglio/shtf.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 7:33:20 PM EDT
macman, you DO need FA for SHTF. you need a browning M2. use an SUR with aimed fire to fend of the troops, and save ma duce for the helecopters.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 7:41:46 PM EDT
Here's a little something that I was re-taught at Thunder Ranch, and I haven't forgotten since: Are you shooting to hit something, or just shooting to make yourself FEEL better because you're doing something? The answer SHOULD BE: Every shot I take is an aimed "marksmanship" shot. If you don't know you are going to hit your target, don't waste the ammo...nevermind the fact that you are giving away your position and possibly even exposing yourself needlessly. Every shot counts. TOOL: Don't sell yourself short, pal. No offense intended to the LEO's reading this, but MANY COPS don't know Jack $%!* about firearms. Just because they have been taught to squeeze a few into a paper target and carry one all day DOES NOT make them experts by any means. I know tons of people that have been licensed and operate a vehicle on a daily basis for decades....but I wouldn't call them "expert drivers" by any stretch of the imagination!!! Firearms usage is even more "finely tuned" motor skill than car driving is, and unfortunately many LEOs don't spend enough time honing and expanding these particular skills.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 7:54:32 PM EDT
anyone that's afraid of running out of ammo just doesn't have enough ammo stockpiled to begin with[heavy]
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 12:49:53 AM EDT
May your enemies be blessed with full autos. A slow hit beats a fast miss.[sniper]
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 1:34:45 AM EDT
For the $5000+ spent on a decent full-auto assault rifle you can get 5 or more semi-auto ARs and arm some of your neighbors (5 men with semis are better than one with a full-auto). You can also afford .22LR conversion kits and thousands of .22 ammo to train them to shoot straight. The .22LR makes an AR-15 into a true survival rifle, allowing you to easily take small game, switching to the larger caliber for mobs, troops, etc. The .223 with heavier, controlled-expansion bullets can work on deer in a pinch as well. Full-auto is fun, but normally a waste of both money and ammo. Get a machine gun because you want one, not because you're afraid of TEOTWAWKI.
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 5:50:57 AM EDT
It would be illegal for me to have one, so if I need one I guess I'll have to take it away from someone else. See what these silly laws do? [):)]
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 4:54:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rg00red: Get a machine gun because you want one, not because you're afraid of TEOTWAWKI.
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I couldn't agree more. I got mine to play with. But, if SHTF, I can still use them right [:)] Far as ammo goes, I spend a certain amount of each paycheck buying more (if I find bargains anyway) For example, I currently have 10K+ rounds for my most shot firearms 9mm, .45, .223, .308 & 7.62x39. I always like having tons of ammo around b/c the prices always seem to go up!
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 5:35:04 PM EDT
The military studied rapid fire vs. aimed fire in WWII and Korea. They found that rapid fire, ie cranking off 3-5 rds in rapid succesion at the enemy was actually somewhat more effective. This was also the way I was taught to combat shoot in the Marines. How this extrapolates to FA fire I'll leave to each of you to decide. FA would obviously be somewhat more difficult to control in my opinion.
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 5:59:08 PM EDT
In paintball, FA tends to draw a lot of incoming fire. I think SA should be good enough.
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 6:00:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2001 5:57:38 PM EDT by 7]
Originally Posted By NYshooter: anyone that's afraid of running out of ammo just doesn't have enough ammo stockpiled to begin with[heavy]
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You are sooooo right. Everyone who posts on here should have at least a few k of .223 laying around. I think if someone was walking towards a house and someone inside let loose with a nice 10 round burst at your position... they would get the fuck out of dodge pretty damn quick. I think these guys are just jealous of the Class III people. [;)]
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 7:30:15 PM EDT
If I could get my hands on one it would be full auto all the way. Especially if I was engaging hostiles. It would scare the hell out of them and they might go look for an easier target.
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 10:11:40 PM EDT
I think that full auto capability could be advantageous, especially if you're faced with multiple adversaries at close range. As long as you have enough ammo to feed a full auto weapon you're better off than someone who has a semi auto.
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 10:21:32 PM EDT
WTSHTF, it will be good to have an AR around the house for defending el casa... That's all a long-gun is good for in such a scenario. Do you think that when such an event takes place, you will be safely strolling around carrying an AR openly? Hell no, and if you do, i'll just pop you in the head with my hi-standard, and take your purdy AR. Handguns are the most valueable tool for TSHTF... You can't blend in with an AR strapped to your back.
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 12:51:27 AM EDT
If I had my druthers, M4 with semi/full safety/selector lever. Aimed semiauto is best for all around, full auto for when I need it( to put some heads down). Exercise some discipline. Any day now those damn dirty apes....
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 6:48:23 AM EDT
Full autos are only good for brave government JBTs going after small Cuban boys in Florida. When you know you're going into a small house full of nice people trying to prevent a very small boy from being returned to a communist dictatorship, it's best to have full auto weapons. That way, you can kill them all easily. You should also wear body armor, masks and black clothes to go with your full auto weapon. However, when the SHTF for real, these brave young lads will be nowhere in sight because maybe, just maybe....there might be some people who can shoot back. So, if you plan on raiding a small house in Florida with several innocent people in it....do as your government does....go in prepared for the worst. After all, they just might have some butter knives or something just as lethal.... Geez, it's great to be an American these days. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Elian Gonzalez and who knows what else. Doesn't it make you proud?
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 7:03:50 AM EDT
I think full auto would come in handy if you had a group of people and could set up one weapon as a LMG with bipod/HBAR/Beta-Cs/etc. That way full-auto would be more than just a noisemaker. If you were alone, I'd take a semi-auto carbine.
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 7:21:34 AM EDT
A FA would be nice for supressive fire or for CQB, where one needs to lay down a lot of lead for multiple advancing BGs. Personally, I'd like to get my hands on a select fire AR, however, I would feel perfectly safe if all I had was a semi auto AR.[uzi]
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 7:58:12 AM EDT
I would feel a lot more comfortable if I had three round burst. It would probably be the easiest to control if I wanted to lay down some heavy fire at the same time I would probably be a little nervouse.
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 8:15:29 AM EDT
um, i'd like to point out that the USGI A2 doen't have FA either. Those of you waiting to get one from one of the boys in a squad are going to be dissappointed. But for all you glory seekers, once you finish off the infantry squad in your efforts for a FA you will only have: a couple M203s, four or five A2's and a SAW and maybe a grenade launcher. That's assuming, of course, they don't splatter your life all over your street. SHTF? Shoot when they are trying to kill you, otherwise grab your AR and a sidearm and F%^$ing [b]RUN[/b] Zaz
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 8:42:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shlomo: WTSHTF, it will be good to have an AR around the house for defending el casa... That's all a long-gun is good for in such a scenario. Do you think that when such an event takes place, you will be safely strolling around carrying an AR openly? Hell no, and if you do, i'll just pop you in the head with my hi-standard, and take your purdy AR. Handguns are the most valuable tool for TSHTF... You can't blend in with an AR strapped to your back.
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Then why would you take someone's AR? Wouldn't that now make you stand out and be a target for someone's High Standard?
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 8:43:44 AM EDT
IMHO, for myself and maybe one or two buddies, aimed semi-automatic fire is the best tactic. If there are several of us, a belt-fed FA would be like the icing on the cake! I sure wish I had one! And several thousand rounds of ammo! I would personally stick to my AR or FAL and take careful aim as I was taught from childhood when hunting. Make every bullet count. Hit and run. Infiltrate, engage, and exfiltrate. However, in a defensive position, a belt-fed FA would "keep their heads down" while the semi-shooters flank them and take them out one-by-one. Oh, and we need a Ma-Deuce for the helicopters![:D][heavy][:D]
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 8:50:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2001 8:53:12 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By AmericanPie: However, when the SHTF for real, these brave young lads will be nowhere in sight because maybe, just maybe....there might be some people who can shoot back.
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Were you watching the news during the North Hollywood bank robbery? I'd say the shit hit the fan for real that time. The "brave young lads" you refer to with such obvious scorn were out gunned but stood up to these wackos, quite plainly in site and got the job done. Pervert the job that peace officers perform all you want. You are still wrong. People like you love to point out aberrations of police conduct, the exception to the rule, to get your point across. The same tactic used by the people who try to steal our rights by telling us how bad guns are. Your no better than they are and a world controlled by people like that might resemble China or North Korea or even Nazi Germany.
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 10:17:50 AM EDT
The key that’s being missed here is the scenario. You did say SHTF didn’t you? If the SHTF there won’t be just a couple cars show up. The SHTF in Waco. Handguns and Ars don’t effectively slow down tanks, and unless helicopters are hovering close by (and they won’t), M2s aren’t going to be effective to deter them either. Is your home fortified? If not how far and fast are you going to be able to run with a few thousand rounds of ammo you have stack piled up? Which brings me to the next point. If there ever is a SHTF scenario, the ones coming to get you will be trained on dealing with the threats you are proposing. When was the last time you actually ran through a training drill to defend you home? Are you just hoping that everyone just lines up for you on your front lawn. These kinds of conversations are great fun while downing some cold ones. If you really believe that this defend from your couch stuff has and merit, you should also be doing stretching exercises, so that you’ll be ready to bend over as kiss your ass goobye.
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 2:36:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer: If there ever is a SHTF scenario, the ones coming to get you will be trained on dealing with the threats you are proposing. When was the last time you actually ran through a training drill to defend you home? Are you just hoping that everyone just lines up for you on your front lawn.
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[green]Well, if you are one of these really bad dudes coming to get me, then I'd guess you are going to be really surprised when I'm not sitting in the corner quivering in fear. So much the better as far as I'm concerned.[/green]
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 3:09:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Oslow:
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer: If there ever is a SHTF scenario, the ones coming to get you will be trained on dealing with the threats you are proposing. When was the last time you actually ran through a training drill to defend you home? Are you just hoping that everyone just lines up for you on your front lawn.
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[green]Well, if you are one of these really bad dudes coming to get me, then I'd guess you are going to be really surprised when I'm not sitting in the corner quivering in fear. So much the better as far as I'm concerned.[/green]
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That’s the whole point. If your idea of SHTF is 2 kids breaking in to steal your stereo, then perhaps you can give them a surprise. But, if we’re talking about something like maybe a gun grab crusade. There will be little of a surprise from the grabbers point of view. They have an entire organization to watch and plan against you. Every time there’s a Ruby ridge or Waco the grabbers learn what works and what don’t. If I were one of the bad guys I [u]would[/u] be surprised to see you in the corner, shaking in fear. I would more expect to the robot with a shotgun and grenade to send back pictures of you suffering the effects of illegal CS gas that I shot through your window. And if you have a family, I’ll testify that that action was warranted because I thought you were going to bring harm to them.
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 4:33:19 PM EDT
I am amazed by all of the people who think they are going to barricade themselves in their homes with a rifle and a barrel of ammo. This is absolutely the last place I'd want to be in such a situation. Once surrounded, where the hell are you going to go. Sooner or later you'll have to sleep. Even if you don't it is simply a matter of time before you are starved out, shot out, burnt out or blown up. You'd be better off surrendering and fighting another day. If SHTF, you'd be far better off going on the offensive-ie. ambushes, hit and run, etc. Secondly, what the hell is all this bullshit about Elian Gonzalez. The kid belongs with his father. A child is not a puppy dog some screwed up bitch can decide to take the collar off of and keep for her own. I'd like to hear you if it was your son. If he was mine, I'd do anything to get him back and whacking a few psycho's wouldn't cause me to lose 1 minutes sleep. They all should be in prison.
Link Posted: 7/30/2001 4:46:33 PM EDT
Full-auto is such a pain in the ass to get in MD, I'll just stick with SA.
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