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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 7/21/2001 5:18:40 PM EDT
TLC is airing a show about the pitbull. One county banned the breed and attacks have dropped. In Barstow CA a pitbull attacked and killed a woman. So the politicians are banning dogs by breed, guns by looks, and cell phones while driving to protect the ignorant voters. Where does it end? They can have my dogs when they pry them out of my cold dead hands!
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 5:24:11 PM EDT
Ban! Ban! Ban! So what else is new. Dumb Owners? Dumb Dogs?
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 5:24:53 PM EDT
Pitbulls are not the problem. It is the trailer trash owners who are training/not training them.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 5:26:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 5:30:09 PM EDT
Most of these problems are caused by people who are uneducated.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 5:34:05 PM EDT
So if they banned pit bulls would existing dogs be grandfathered in as pre-ban dogs, then all new dogs would be post-ban? What features would pre-ban dogs have that would not be allowed on the post-bans? Man this could get confusing!
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 5:39:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 455SD: So if they banned pit bulls would existing dogs be grandfathered in as pre-ban dogs, then all new dogs would be post-ban? What features would pre-ban dogs have that would not be allowed on the post-bans? Man this could get confusing!
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Post Ban Pit Bulls...No teeth? Lemme think of some more..
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 5:58:11 PM EDT
I have lived with 3 pitbulls over the years. We raised ours to be obedient and respectful thus we have had very social animals that loved most everyone they met. Now, yes, they were bred to be destructive and they have a killer instinct that blocks out all else if they get into a fight with an animal or another dog but it does truly depend on how well you raise your dogs. The problem is not the breed of dog rather it is the type of people who raise them in inappropriate ways that cause the negative press these lovable, intelligent animals get. I say we start banning all the stupid trailer trash and the brothas from the hood and East LA who get their kicks and profits from making these animals as mean as possible. They are not to be toyed with but can and are very acceptable pets for the right kinds of folks. I like most animals I meet better than most people I Know.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 7:06:43 PM EDT
I personally dont like the breed I would rather hav a Lab, etc. Banning a breed of dog is about as ignorant as a submarine with screen doors. Something a lot of people don't know or realize is that many homeowner's insurance companies are "cracking down" on homeowners who have certain breeds of dogs. A neighbor of mine around the corner once had a Rottweiler about 11 months old. (Fenced in backyard, nice neighborhood, nice home, etc.) Their insurance agent came out to their house to look at hail damage or something to their roof. In about 3 days they got a letter from the Insurance company that stated they had 30 days to get rid of the dog, or their policy would be cancelled!They called the company and were told that there were 3 breeds of dogs that they considered "vicious" - Rottweiler, Pit Bull, and Doberman. To make a long story short, they got rid of the dog and then got a Golden Retreiver! What is stupid is what if you have a mix breed? Say 1/4 Pit Bull? Is that OK? Personally I think Insurance companies suck & are ripoff, but if you read the fine print in the policy you are basically payng them to Lord over you. A guy who worked at a comapny I use to be with had his policy cancelled for "lack of maintenance to his place, he had all kinds of junk in the yard and they told him in a letter that it was "fire hazard" - go figure.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 7:11:30 PM EDT
What really gets me is that any canine can be a "pit bull" and the Stafordshire Bull Terrier, and the American Bull Terrier have the unfortunate reputation pertaining to that distinction. It is the way a person raises them, I personally have known many a Bull Terrier and they are some of the kindest dogs around. Just my 2 pennies
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 7:22:05 PM EDT
When that lady was killed by a couple of dogs in SF, the media started calling for a ban on large dogs. By "large", they meant dogs that weighed over 30 pounds. Every now and then I see references to people trying to push through a ban or permit system for dog owners in CA. In a few more years, everyone in CA will be a criminal.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 7:23:41 PM EDT
The problem is all the curs being indiscriminately bred, and often, the "pit bull" in question is a cur-bred "catch" dog raised by someone who should have never had one. Their middle name is trouble, yet they will love you unconditionally, to the death. Owning a real pit bears a grave responsibility. They are the finest breed of dog on the planet, the only game breed in existence, and they are being fucked over by the media and all the worthless idiots that shouldn't own them. The other problem is the freakin' puppy peddlers that sell APBTs of dubious breeding willy-nilly to any macho idiot who thinks he wants a tough dog. Morons! A mean dog is never game! A pit should NEVER BE TRAINED TO BITE PEOPLE, and a pit that will bite a person is not worth the powder to blow it's head off. I've been around the real dogs, the real dogmen, the real thing all my life, and the real pit bull is extrordinarily friendly, even to children. To another dog, hog, steer, bobcat, bear - Katy bar the door! The breed should be protected like a national treasure. Except for the ones that bite people.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 8:13:41 PM EDT
I couldn't believe Bill O'Riley was in favor of this ban. But, I was unfortunate enough to see it for myself.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 8:32:13 PM EDT
The fucked up thing about this is that alot of times the supposed "pit bull" in question is a curr dog of unknown breed, but is branded a pit bull by authorities or reporters don't know what they're talking about but are looking for a scapegoat for headlines. For more information on this, check out some Richard Stratton books. When it comes to other animals, the pit bull lives up to it's reputation. When it comes to humans, one vet told me that in 10 years of practice he had never had a pit bull turn on him or attack him. He also said that he couldn't say the same about poodles.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 9:03:02 PM EDT
First, define Pit Bull. You'll find it's as varied as "Assault Weapon." Unless the AKC (American Kennel Club) has changed it's stance in the last few years they don't recognize a "Pit Bull" breed. I'm with it's a problem with the owner/trainer more than the dog. I can remember when the "bad" dog was a German Shepherd, then it was the Doberman Pincher, Rotwiler was in there somewhere also. Now it's the Pit Bull. Hey! How about the Shar Pei (SP?) that cute cuddly wrinkled dog. It was bred as a Chinese fighting dog but I guess they are too cute as puppies and expensive to be bad.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 9:29:40 PM EDT
My family and I actually raised show dogs a good portion of my life, so I am pretty experienced in this subject. The simple fact is that some breeds are more inclined to be agressive than others. For example, Chows are very agressive dogs on average, I personally would not own one, they are just too twitchy. Pit Bulls are the same way, there are plenty of good Pit bulls, but they just aren't as reliable as others. Why would you get a Pit? If you could pick from any breed, a Pit sure isn't the best family dog, people get them because they are mean, yes, bad owners make this worse, but the simple fact is that they are more inclined to be agressive than most. I had a German Shepherd for years, she was the best dog I ever owned ( I will always miss her) but while she was agressive, she was only so on her territory and was the smartest & most obedient dog I have ever known. Damn I miss that dog. If you wan't a guard dog, get one that can think as well as fight, like a shepherd or an Akita.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 9:46:41 PM EDT
My neibor has one, nice dog. Last winter I went to warm the Jeep up and left the door open. Get back into car and drive to work. Max (the dog) had jumped in the back and I didn't realize he was there untill I got to work. Left him in the car with the windows cracked. about an hour latter, Max figured out how to open the door and was in the shop looking for me. Great dog, probally too nice. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 10:23:05 PM EDT
I think tthe politicians ought to ban themselves.as far as the pitbulls go its all on how you train them.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 11:08:56 PM EDT
when i was stationed in hawaii, my fap commander, a lt(female), and her husband (an artie officer) had a little get to gether to celebrate leaving 29 palms. well at her house was, you guessed it, a pit bull. it looked alot like spuds mackenzie i think i played with this dog the whole time i was there. and you know what, i couldnt get it to bite me. it was a playful thing and friendly. from what ive heard pit bulls and bull dogs for some reason are very friendly to children. its just these morons who train them to be vicious is how they get to be that way. "i got me a killer dog, yuk, yuk!" just like firearms, its not the weapon itself, but the person pulling the trigger, or guy making the dog an attack dog in an improper manner. have you ever heard of a police dog killing, yet alone hurting anyone? BB
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 12:25:05 AM EDT
well at her house was, you guessed it, a pit bull. it looked alot like spuds mackenzie have you ever heard of a police dog killing, yet alone hurting anyone? BB
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Spud Mckenzie was a bull terrier, not a Pit bull, different breed. and the police use German Shepherds, not pit bulls.
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 12:33:47 AM EDT
Ban the Moronic owners who would visit such abuse on a dog in the name of "training". Pit bulls must be trained to "lock jaw". Some breeds do have more aggressive tendencies towards OTHER DOGS, I don't know of any that are aggressive to humans out of the chute. As for me, make mine a German Shepherd Dog.[:D]
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 4:59:10 AM EDT
I own a American Pit Bull Terrier (and he's a "Game" dog, if you know what that means) - I will never own another kind of dog again. Most people know absolutely NOTHING about this breed (they know only what the media tells them). The American Pit Bull Terrier [b]IS[/b] the ALL AMERICAN DOG. I could go on and on, but I will write an article or something later... Tyler
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 5:16:39 AM EDT
All dogs are "pack" animals and need socialization (bonding for you more urbane types-like Murph :) )..discipline and training..Ive owned 1 pit bull 1 rottweiller 1 doby and 4 Shepherds...My wife trains both dogs and horses..has owned a couple of dozen shepherds (counting pups)...The next two dogs I aspire to own are a Chessie and a performance American Bulldog...The Shepherds have worked out the best for me as they are a little less likely to go off on errant neighbors but as far as raw personal protection Id say the rottie and the pit bull were the most fear inspiring in would be ner-do-wells...Sherpherds (if well bred) are probably the most intelligent of the protection/working class dogs but many breeds are used very effectively in protection and riot duty...including the Bouvier the Malinois the Pit Bull and The American Bulldog-(who as a "catch" dog can pull down a wild hog...and were used to catch and pull down bulls...any dog that can catch and pull down a bull...would make a heck of a personal protection dog with the right handler)...Pit Bulls bad reps stem from the kind of people that own them breed them and are irresponsible ...personal repsponibility is the key in any society worth its salt...dogs need discipline just like kids or they go bad..they need attention and training..lots of it...if you arent willing to put in the time with your animal or your kid you shouldnt have either..for both will let you down & the animal might just get you into to serious legal hassles..for that matter the kid to..my dos centavos
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 5:24:13 AM EDT
Sumo, That dog was an American bull Terrier, bull terriers with a sharp nose are American Bull Terriers, with a flat nose they are Stafordshire Bull Terriers. Spuds Mcenzie was an American Bull Terrier.
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 5:55:01 AM EDT
Living in Longbeach CA I watched my neighborhood go PITBULL. The trees in the yards had large ropes and tires hanging from them which the owners used to teach the dogs to hang on for hours. Spiked collars were di rigor. Alley fighting was common on the weekend. Owners beating their dogs was not uncommon. I am afraid of pitbulls especially when walking my Golden Retreiver which barks "hello" to every dog he sees. My future son-in law has a Pitbull which I have watered, feed, and groomed. Last week I entered the house and the dog, YODA, nipped me on the right forearm just below the elbow. This really sucks!!! Would neutering the dog reduce aggression? I was at the Kash and Carry a month ago and had just parked when a man parked next to me in a pick up with 5 large Pitbulls in the back of the truck. I had to re-park!
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 5:58:29 AM EDT
Living in Longbeach CA I watched my neighborhood go PITBULL. The trees in the yards had large ropes and tires hanging from them which the owners used to teach the dogs to hang on for hours. Spiked collars were di rigor. Alley fighting was common on the weekend. Owners beating their dogs was not uncommon. I am afraid of pitbulls especially when walking my Golden Retreiver which barks "hello" to every dog he sees. My future son-in law has a Pitbull which I have watered, fed, and groomed. Last week I entered the house and the dog, YODA, nipped me on the right forearm just below the elbow. This really sucks!!! Would neutering the dog reduce aggression? I was at the Kash and Carry a month ago and had just parked when a man parked next to me in a pick up with 5 large Pitbulls in the back of the truck. I had to re-park!
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 7:03:56 AM EDT
discipline to have maximum impact on a dogs personality has to start in puppyhood when the dog engages in inapropriate "nipping" that has to be come down on real hard...as pups I like to grab them by the skin of their neck pick them off the ground get them face to fact and yell NO.. real loud..then put them in a time out...I now crate raise all dogs....I dont like hitting them especially with a hand as I think this just conditions them to dislike and fear bite hands...(fear biting is another issue but the main reason dogs bite)..Personally I hate dog fighting and those who breed and train and practice this cruelty..dogs are bred indiscretly to fight and as a result...you get dogs with personality dissorders...over agressive..willfull..things good breeders try to breed out of their lines and not into...thats pobably the main reson pit bull have such bad reps their are still good breeders out there who can get you a sound dog...with good temperment...but pit bulls like rotties need a special type of owner...they need attention and lots of it..along with a firm hand they have to be made to obey and to listen up..neutering should help in my opinon...but training is the key...and lots of praise dogs like people..will accept discipline in a better spirit if they trust the handler...thats why socialization is so important..like my God-daughter says...If you love a dog and they know that then they will accept correction..she says kids are like that to shes pretty good trainer for an 11 yr old
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 7:09:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By reconxl: Most of these problems are caused by people who are uneducated.
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My daughter owns a pit bull.....very strong-very hyper-protective- EXTREMELY friendly. not agressive at all, unless ordered so....has never bitten a person...it`s all in how they`re trained/raised.....drug people in the city train them to be nasty and agressive. Some are found with voice box removed....Buffalo p.d. are frequently destroying this type of pit bull....this gives them a bad reputation......
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 7:17:20 AM EDT
Here are a couple of sources for security/protection dog training...if you think pitbull cant be great reliable guard/personal protection dogs please get and read Mike Harlows book...Mike has written the definitve starting place for protection dogs and dispells many myths about the Pitt Bull ...just missed talking to him last year at a bulldog roundup..hope to get to meet him this year at the same event [url]http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/[/url] [url]http://www.ckcusa.com/booksmag/ts-k9bodyg.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 11:34:58 PM EDT
okay, jeeze sumo thanks for clearing everything up for me... did i ever say police use pit bulls? that wasnt the point. the point was that those are dogs that have the capability to wreck ones world. and yet when properly trained they dont injure severley. i know german sheperds have killed people. the training is the issue here. and i said that the dog resembled spuds. did i say spuds was a pit bull??? the dog had a white coat, although i think spuds had a few black spots, while i dont think this one did. BB
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 12:07:13 AM EDT
9divdoc, I don't think a pit bull can pull down a bull. Hell they can't even pull down a hog. If you are using your pit bull as a hog dog(catch dog) you had better be right there, or the hog will kill your pit bull. Pit bulls are the marines of dogs, they are fearless.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 3:35:44 AM EDT
I have a Pit Bull. He's 72 lbs of muscle. Smart, too. Swims better than the best water-dog. Can run (waddle) with a 65 lb dumbell in his mouth. He loves kids, is gentle with all. He loves cats and small dogs. Best dog ever. When people talk of banning the breed, AW owners should take notice. "...no one NEEDS to own one of those..." "...why would anyone want such a SCARY looking dog?" My dog has the physical ability to do a lot of damage. But he won't.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 3:45:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: I have a Pit Bull. He's 72 lbs of muscle. Smart, too. Swims better than the best water-dog. Can run (waddle) with a 65 lb dumbell in his mouth. He loves kids, is gentle with all. He loves cats and small dogs. Best dog ever. When people talk of banning the breed, AW owners should take notice. "...no one NEEDS to own one of those..." "...why would anyone want such a SCARY looking dog?" My dog has the physical ability to do a lot of damage. But he won't.
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"No one needs to own one of those rifles" ." Why would anyone want such a scary looking rifle".............
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 3:48:14 AM EDT
...exactly. It's the same language, and the same "ban 'em" mindset.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 5:10:00 AM EDT
We got an APBT puppy 3 years ago to replace my mother's show-dog Pomeranian my brother accidently ran over in the driveway...a very horrible and expensive experience. This particular pit-bull was found in a trash dumpster less than 2 weeks old. Apparently, someone in the area (Huntington, LI NY) was breeding pit-bulls for ILLEGAL dog fighting, and quite possibly this pup didn't make the grade or was the runt of the liter. Fast forward 3 years and I now have an incredibly loyal dog who is fiercely protective yet gentle with family and friends. I also have two cats and they all get along fine. 80+ pounds(runt??? didn't make the cut???) of energy and muscle, pure joy. It's the way the dogs are raised, you get out of it what you put into it. My .02 cents.....[beer]
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 5:25:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By black&green:
Originally Posted By reconxl: Most of these problems are caused by people who are uneducated.
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My daughter owns a pit bull.....very strong-very hyper-protective- EXTREMELY friendly. not agressive at all, unless ordered so....has never bitten a person...it`s all in how they`re trained/raised.....drug people in the city train them to be nasty and agressive. Some are found with voice box removed....Buffalo p.d. are frequently destroying this type of pit bull....this gives them a bad reputation......
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I agree there; my wifes sister owns a pitbull very friendly with kids etc! then a friend of there's come down first thing he said "Lets make him mean!" its the mindset of the owners this country is communist Ban! Ban! Ban! there needs to be a law to ban the training of attack! not the breed of the dog. were the one's going to pay for it.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 8:49:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2001 8:47:53 AM EDT by zipster223]
Dumb People = Dumb Dogs I house sat for a buddy for a year that had a pit bull. Someone attempted to train this dog as a fighter but got frustrated and beat it up with a baseball bat. My friends brother was a Veterinarian doctor for the university where the dog had been dumped.It needed a home and my buddy wanted a dog. They fixed it up $3000 later and the rest is history. Best biking buddy I ever had. He would follow the trails with me for hours then go home on his own. Then when I got home he would see me coming up the drive and run down the street after me. He would then proceed to pull me off the bike. After that it was wrestling time. I could wrestle with this dog, put my face in his, and hold his mouth shut and blow in his face(most dogs bite when you do this) and all I would receive is a friendly nip in the ankles. Woke up every morning with a 80lb beast staring at me holding his leash. Could leave a steak on the counter and dog would not touch it. This dog was also trained to find morel mushrooms. I'm not kidding. Was very protective and gentle with kids. The only time I saw this dog get aggressive was when a neibor kid was being chased by a stray rothwiler and when a rabid skunk was running around the neighborhood. In both cases the dog shown its strength and just how powerful this breed can be. All the parents/kids in the neighbor felt safe with this dog around. Mind you they all lived in $400,000 homes and were layers, doctors and businessmen. (not white trash) I have never seen a dog so well mannered, obedient, and gentle as this one. Pitbulls are dangerous in the wrong hands just like any firearm, automobile, etc. The owner of this dog spent every hour had with it in order to raise it right. I am convinced that its the owner not the animal that makes a pet.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 9:17:45 AM EDT
Something strange about PRK that has me troubled. They want to ban everything like guns and certain breeds of dogs, but it is proposed that people who work for the state want a sex change operation can get one at tax payers expense. I don't think PRK should even be taken recognized or taken seriously as a state anymore. BTW, I work for a utility company and am required to go into numerous yards with all kinds of dogs. To my experience, pitbulls are no different than any other breed of dog. There can be mean ones, there can be ones that run away, and there can be one that are friendly as heck. I actually been bitten or snapped at by dogs not known to be mean like a labrador or a poodle. I never been bitten by a pitbull, rottweiler, doberman, etc. I must admit, I once thought all pitbulls were mean, but with my experiences being around them, I actually am considering getting one as a pet, which I will train to be obedient, especially around kids, yet still be a good guard dog. All dogs, including pitbulls, are no different than people. There can be bad ones and good ones. Is PRK going to ban a certain type of person with a certain type of behavior from living there? In other words, is PRK going to ban normal, hard-working,law-abiding, conservative people?
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 9:35:44 AM EDT
I love dogs and all that but there is one thing to remember. A gun cannot get up and own it's own power, go attack someone. A dog can. Go ahead and flame me. I am not in favor of a ban of any kind, but there is that ONE huge difference.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 9:39:09 AM EDT
While I tend to agree with y'all (bad owners, not bad dog). I will never trust a pitbull around my children. I have known of 2 attacks in my lifetime where the dog seemed like a nice dog and was raised by a nice family but just "went off" one day. The first happened when I was a child almost 30 years ago. The dog attacked the kids in the family. Parents were at work, left at home was a 13 year old girl and her 2 younger brothers (one 5, the other 7). The boys were playing with the dog and then the dog went ape-shit and started mauling them. The 13 year old girl managed to get the boys and herself into another room only after getting one of her ears ripped off and lots of damage to her face and arms. The boys also suffered similar wounds. The parents came home later to find a blood-covered pitbull and the terrorized children locked up in the bathroom. The dog had settled down and was acting normal at that point. The other incident happened just a few years back. One of my close friends bought a pitbull puppy and loved and raised it, a couple years later they were watching TV and the dog goes off on his wife as she was walking past it. Major damage to her leg, dog wouldn't let go and my friend ended up shooting the dog in the head. I knew both these families and the dogs. In these cases the people were very loving to the dog. In the first case I thought perhaps the boys had provoked the dog in some way (as little boys will), the second case I have no idea. I had played with both these dogs and had never seen any evidence of over-aggressive behavior. So from my personal experience I would never own a pitbull. I also had a personal experience with a pitbull jumping into my backyard and going after 12 great dane puppies that were frolicking around. I grabbed a wooden sword and ran out back but saw my 2 adult great danes (the parents) had already taken care of the problem (killed the pitbull) and was in the process of removing the head from the body (tug of war). I had never seen my great danes go off on a dog like this, but they were protecting their young so it is understandable. My great danes are highly trained and I do trust them with my family. They have even saved our ass a few times from strays while we were on walks, funny that at least 2 of those times were stray pitbulls.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 10:45:11 AM EDT
To those of you who say that its the owners, not the dogs, i want to know what your SOLUTIONS to this problem would be. I recently read that dog bites have increased 3x in the last 2 years. And we keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible people - felons and the mentally disturbed. We dont do this with these dogs. I'm not saying that a ban is the best idea, but what is the solution? Registration? Greater punishment for the owners? I kind of think that maybe certain breeds of dogs should only be available through licensed breeders, sorta like a FFL. Then these dogs would have to be licensed. And if animal control or the police find a dog that does not have a license then it should be destroyed. I'm for less government, but the problem here is getting out of control. I understand that these animals can be raised and controlled properly, but the number of people who are responsible pet owners seem to be less than the bad ones. I dont relate this regulation/licensing to guns since there is nothing in the constitution about a right to bear vicious dogs. If you want to own one you should have to jump through some hoops.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 10:51:57 AM EDT
...like the AW ban, classification becomes a problem. Define PitBull. They're not a recognized breed by the AKC. They look identical to Staffordshire terriers. Half Boxer/half Lab looks like a PitBull. What percentage PitBull would get the dog to fall under this "law"? Some PitBulls are 35 lbs, others are 100lbs. Tan, black, brown, brindle, white, spots, stripes...... All of this sounds familiar. Nazis. Bradys.
Link Posted: 7/23/2001 10:59:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By qwijibo: When that lady was killed by a couple of dogs in SF, the media started calling for a ban on large dogs. By "large", they meant dogs that weighed over 30 pounds. Every now and then I see references to people trying to push through a ban or permit system for dog owners in CA. In a few more years, everyone in CA will be a criminal.
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My spelling may be wrong, but those dogs in SF were a breed called Pressa Canerial. I have seen them on TV and they make pits look like chihuahuas. Very unfortunate for the deceased but the cause was the owners, not the dogs. I think they should ban CA then CA won't ahve anything else to ban!
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