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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 7/15/2001 9:47:27 AM EDT
Sorry I don't have the pix to post at the moment, but I think most of you will know what I'm referring to (Woodland pattern in "urban colors"). Regular Urban or Subdued? What would be the reasons for using on over the other?
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 10:18:23 AM EDT
I'm kinda partial to denim and polo, or in cooler weather, denim and flannel with a disruptive grid pattern.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 10:27:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PACorps: Sorry I don't have the pix to post at the moment, but I think most of you will know what I'm referring to (Woodland pattern in "urban colors"). Regular Urban or Subdued? What would be the reasons for using on over the other?
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Before you spend a lot of money on cammo, view it through high end nightvision! Does it really blend into the urban environment, or is it a beacon for a sniper to beed in on? Even field gear can be a beacon, do not be a target! Then comes the washing aspect of it all, do the detergents you use nornally leave anything behind that can make your cammo glow? Get to know this too! There are UV and IR inhibitors in certain products that work well to clean those BDU's, while a normal wash will make your BDU's and gear glow! Serious operators use new, unwashed REAL mil-spec BDU's for missions, then after that they are pretty useless to a pro! Even more important, know what kind of thermal signature you make, and learn to subdue that, with high end barriers! With out this knowledge, only typical SWAT RAIDS where the element of surprise is on your side, will you be safe! Go against a pro in urban warfare who has the right knowledge, and gear, and you will quickly bring your own end into reality!
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 11:26:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan: Serious operators use new, unwashed REAL mil-spec BDU's for missions, then after that they are pretty useless to a pro! Even more important, know what kind of thermal signature you make, and learn to subdue that, with high end barriers! With out this knowledge, only typical SWAT RAIDS where the element of surprise is on your side, will you be safe! Go against a pro in urban warfare who has the right knowledge, and gear, and you will quickly bring your own end into reality!
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Good point...but here's something else to consider: with this in mind, could "military" BDUs sold to the general public possibly NOT have anti-UV/IR properties (i.e. they don't want us to have any advantage)?
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 11:42:06 AM EDT
The only anti UV/anti IR properties the cammies have is they don't glow or reflect IR light. But most commercial detergents contain UV brighteners. Having seen cammies under all the current military NV systems, It really isn't as much of a deal how you wash them, as long as they are not faded white they look about the same. Also within a day or so in the field, dirt will suppress any UV enhancers on the cammies. The issue of all serious operators only using cammies once is a joke right? Normally you wash your cammies to soften them reducing the noise of cloth and let them breath a little better.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 12:52:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2001 12:52:13 PM EDT by andreusan]
Originally Posted By STLRN: The only anti UV/anti IR properties the cammies have is they don't glow or reflect IR light. But most commercial detergents contain UV brighteners. Having seen cammies under all the current military NV systems, It really isn't as much of a deal how you wash them, as long as they are not faded white they look about the same. Also within a day or so in the field, dirt will suppress any UV enhancers on the cammies. The issue of all serious operators only using cammies once is a joke right? Normally you wash your cammies to soften them reducing the noise of cloth and let them breath a little better.
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The phosphorus in the most common detergents does glow, as for dirt suppressing UV enhansers, urban cammo is the topic, thus urban setting! Compare BDU's washed with common over the counter detergents, to those washed in cleaners designed to inhibit UV and IR! Unless there is all out conflict there will not be too much dirt to roll around in, except at some park, or small planter. Joke to a point, depending on mission, to weed out the unsuspecting!
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 2:13:26 PM EDT
urban camo is a joke righ u wan tto blend in with the population hey look there a guy wearing all black camo BANG BANG
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 4:32:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 4:48:56 PM EDT
We call it Target Indicator Black. Arock out.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 4:51:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 4:52:50 PM EDT
Guys, check this article on urban camouflage. [url]http://www.natick.army.mil/warrior/96/may/camo.htm[/url] Good info there.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:03:57 PM EDT
I agree with Garand Shooter about plain OD green or grey. Both of these are neutral colors that blend in or appear unobtrusive against many backgrounds, both man-made and natural. Khaki is another one that should work well in an urban area. However, I think that unless you're part of a military unit, anything you're wearing that resembles a military uniform will eventually attract someone's attention. There's a lot of sturdy civilian clothes that will hold up to "urban guerrilla" use without making you [b]look[/b] like an urban guerrilla.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:26:49 PM EDT
Woodland pattern BDUs. Most suburban areas (where most people in this country live) have substantial vegetation. Greys and blacks stand out like a sore thumb. Black BDUs tend to glow under street lights. Plus the public has a negative reaction to the ninja look these have. Woodland BDUs blend in to most suburban and rural environments fairly well, lack the negative public reaction, and are available cheaply. When I was in the army, there was talk about the anti-IR reflective treatment in BDUs. They were supposedly good for 10-12 washings, but could be retreated. I never saw any "retreatment" compound, so that could be bad info. Starched BDUs do glow when viewed through NVGs.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:45:58 PM EDT
The 21st Century soldier will face battlefield challenges that are more complex and greater in number than ever before. One of the greatest challenges is to conduct Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT). Whether fighting in general war, regional conflict or operations other than war, the soldier will need the best technology and tactics available to survive in this environment. Effective concealment is key to soldier protection and survivability. The payoffs are significant and include reduced soldier vulnerability because of the decreased likelihood of enemy detection and targeting. Effective camouflage also enhances the soldierÕs ability to use surprise tactics. It is one of the most important battlefield materiel requirements for the force projection Army of the 21st Century. At SSCOM, scientists and engineers are developing camouflage materials for the soldier fighting on the urban battlefield. Fighting in the Urban Environment Human population continues to grow rapidly throughout the world and in undeveloped countries the growth is exponential. Also, because of the infusion of new technologies into urban areas, increased job opportunities have been created leading to high rates of migration into the cities. The result has been an explosive expansion in size and number of urban areas throughout the world. According to some estimates, 75% of the world will live in urban areas by the year 2000. The urban battlefield is like no other because of its crowdedness, large variety of challenging features, and wide variability from location-to-location throughout the world.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:47:14 PM EDT
Developing Effective Urban Camouflage The technical challenges in developing effective urban camouflage are many. Camouflage colors and patterns (shapes) in a combat uniform fabric must provide the least amount of contrast between the soldier and his background. Part of providing low contrast to the background is the ability to break up or distort those recognizable features of the soldier, his silhouette and his outline. Urban camouflage combat uniforms must be effective across the widest variety of urban environments. Camouflage requirements for urban areas present a different challenge from those of woodland or desert terrains. For one thing, in most cases, the tactical ranges would be closer in urban fighting than in woodland or desert warfare. This would translate into smaller designs with closer merge distances. Also, urban backgrounds generally require more straight edge camouflage, vertical and horizontal designs to blend with home, buildings and other urban structures, etc. Near infrared (NIR) camouflage for urban areas would generally mimic NIR spectral reflectance of road and building materials, asphalt, concrete, gravel, steel, brick, wood, stucco, etc. This would be in contrast to woodland NIRs requirements that mimic the chlorophyll curve of vegetation and the NIR requirements of desert camouflage which mimics the curves of various desert sands.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:48:39 PM EDT
SSCOM's current Science and Technology program has the objective of providing effective broadband camouflage protection to the user in urban locations. SSCOM's efforts towards accomplishing this objective have utilized a computerized spectral terrain data collection system known as the Terrain Analysis System (TAS). Using the TAS, terrain data were collected at various local urban sites. SSCOM also relied on existing spectral data on urban terrain elements, such as rock, gravel, concrete and asphalt. From the gathered and existing terrain data SSCOM developed experimental urban camouflage patterns and colors . Two 2-color patterns were developed based on TAS data. One 3-color pattern was developed based on existing data. An urban grey monotone was also produced. Following the development of urban camouflage patterns and colors, prototype uniforms were made for evaluation. The uniforms were developed based on the principle of using existing data as well as measuring and collecting reflectance data from urban backgrounds in the visual area (what you see with the naked eye) 400-600 nanometers (nm), visual spectrum and NRI area (what you see through passive night vision devices, image intensifiers, i. e. starlight scope) 600-860 nm and closely approximating this reflectance produced on textile fabrics. Proper dyestuff selection and color matching contribute greatly toward achieving the ultimate goal of providing the least amount of contrast between the soldier and his background when viewed by the enemy. Field Evaluation of Concepts Experimental urban camouflage BDU's were informally evaluated locally and more formally evaluated during a baseline urban camouflage effectiveness study performed in May 1994 at the MOUT training site at Ft. Benning. The baseline urban camouflage effectiveness study included the following seven camouflage BDU's: two 2-color experimental disruptive urban camouflage uniforms, a 3-color experimental disruptive urban camouflage uniform, a monotone grey urban camouflage uniform, an experimental monotone black NomexTM flight suit, a standard three-color desert camouflage uniform, and a standard woodland camouflage uniform. The uniforms were evaluated to determine their camouflage effectiveness at five locations within the MOUT Training Center. The locations included three day sites, one inside site and one night site. All test subjects and observers were previously exposed to MOUT training and were drawn from Alpha Company, 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Ft. Benning. All observers had at least a corrected visual acuity of 20/30 and normal color vision. The observers were asked to evaluate the camouflage effectiveness of each uniform across all five sites based on forced comparisons. At each test site the observers were asked to select the one camouflage uniform that blended best with the surrounding urban background. Each observer made 21 best blend comparisons at each test site for a total of 252 decisions by 12 observers at each location. All observation data were recorded, collected and statistically analyzed.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:49:27 PM EDT
The results of the baseline urban camouflage effectiveness study were as follows: the lighter colored patterned uniforms blended best across the stucco and cinder block buildings which comprised the three day sites. These were the two 2-color light grey and medium grey urban patterned uniforms, and the 3-color desert camouflage uniform. The darker uniforms - the black flight suit, the woodland camouflage uniform and the monotone grey urban camouflage uniform- blended the poorest across the three day sites. As would be expected, the darker uniforms, and the 3-color urban camouflage uniform blended the best when viewed by observers from outside looking inside at a test subject within a building. Camouflage effectiveness tests performed at night at one site where observers were looking through a third generation passive night vision device revealed that the black flight suit performed well because of its high reflectance in the NIR against a painted urban background. The two color medium grey urban camouflage uniform, and the monotone grey uniform also performed well in this setting. The woodland uniform and 3 color urban camouflage uniform did not perform well at the urban night site. Study results suggest that a reversible uniform would offer maximum concealment to the soldier fighting in an urban environment. Such a uniform might have a desert or a 2-color developmental pattern printed on one side for daylight operations, while the other side would be printed in black with appropriate NIR properties for night or inside maneuvers. The technologies to produce such a uniform exist today. SSCOM has developed a process to print on both sides of combat clothing fabrics and has designed and fabricated reversible BDU prototypes from these durable fabrics incorporating innovative features such as unique stitching techniques, double-faced buttons and closures and double-entry pockets. Future Trends In addition to reversible urban camouflage, the future soldier may have available site-specific, rapidly deployable urban camouflage. Using special algorithms, an ink jet system will rapidly and accurately design the appropriate disruptive pattern, select the optimum color combination and print the fabric for the specified urban terrain. The technology for urban spectral terrain data gathering and quick fabrication is mature and here today. Computerized ink jet printing systems are currently available on a very limited basis; however, the technology is consistently evolving and should be applicable and widely available in the near future. THIS is the article i linked.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 7:07:05 PM EDT
Keep it simple go black.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 7:47:22 PM EDT
Black turtleneck and black jeans, with a paperback copy of Sartre or Ginsburg stuffed in your back pocket. You'll get into all the better nightclubs, score with the chicks, _and_ be tactical! Don't forget the attitude of existential angst.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 7:53:01 PM EDT
AUSCAM _DPCUs check it out- www.army.gov.au
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 8:03:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2001 8:00:20 PM EDT by GeneStoner]
[url]www.army.gov.au [/url] = bad link.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 1:47:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2001 1:50:22 AM EDT by andreusan]
Yep, it took a little time after the PSYOPS, but as expected, a big mouth, smart ass, spills the beans, for all to learn! Read my comment in respond to jokes! Have you paid attention? Just a little time, and you get what you want from the those who cannot resist running their smart ass mouths, its great, I love this board! How about another topic, for all to learn from, it is easy! Oh, by the way, the best urban cammo for you, think you know it all legends in your own minds: IS, a fine babe, hot as hot can be, to distract the idiots who think with their little heads, then AMBUSH! "NOW THY ENEMY, AND USE THEM TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!"
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 3:17:57 AM EDT
Is that you, Gunkiddie?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 10:54:34 AM EDT
Ratty deck shoes, shorts, Guy Harvey tee shirt, Devil Rays had and a guitar case!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 11:18:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 11:19:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Older Crow: Ratty deck shoes, shorts, Guy Harvey tee shirt, Devil Rays had and a guitar case!
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Great answer. How about tie-dye T-shirt with peace symbol, Ratty jeans, Birkenstocks, hair in a pigtail, and a beat up daypack with communist country flags (patches) sewn on. [8P] Everyone knows hippies are harmless.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 11:42:44 AM EDT
thanks Tuukka! i love to see what the experts are doing, i always rely on military testing as my "homework" [;)] PACorps, if the city is intact, with the S just starting to HTF, then my camo will be a black, three piece suit, with a velcro lappel to cover the white shirt at my neck/upper chest - then i look like i belong there, but still can "black out" and hide/move in the shadows. if the city is intact, but empty because the SHTF already, i would go with subdued grey, or OD, like Tuukka's article states. but, if the city is already in a state of ruin, i would think the old white/grey/black "woodland" type pattern BDU's would look more like a pile of rubble and glass... just my opinion...
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:17:34 PM EDT
I think you guys need to look over in Israel and take a look at what the Palestinians are wearing, mostly. Blue jeans, T-shirts, ect.; look like the population. How many militant Palestinians do you think would be alive if they all had "urban camo" on? They would stick out like a hot pink "eighties" polo shirt. I thought the idea of camo was to blend in? guns762
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:20:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stealth:
Originally Posted By Older Crow: Ratty deck shoes, shorts, Guy Harvey tee shirt, Devil Rays had and a guitar case!
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Great answer. How about tie-dye T-shirt with peace symbol, Ratty jeans, Birkenstocks, hair in a pigtail, and a beat up daypack with communist country flags (patches) sewn on. [8P] Everyone knows hippies are harmless.
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I seem you have plenty of time on your hands to flame me at every chance, what is it you said you did for the military, and are you doing it against Americans?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:21:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stealth:
Originally Posted By Older Crow: Ratty deck shoes, shorts, Guy Harvey tee shirt, Devil Rays had and a guitar case!
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Great answer. How about tie-dye T-shirt with peace symbol, Ratty jeans, Birkenstocks, hair in a pigtail, and a beat up daypack with communist country flags (patches) sewn on. [8P] Everyone knows hippies are harmless.
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I
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:23:37 PM EDT
Hey, Grand Shooter, you have an awful lot of time to flame me at every chance, what was it you said you did for the military, and do you do it to Americans?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:30:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:31:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan:
Originally Posted By Stealth:
Originally Posted By Older Crow: Ratty deck shoes, shorts, Guy Harvey tee shirt, Devil Rays had and a guitar case!
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Great answer. How about tie-dye T-shirt with peace symbol, Ratty jeans, Birkenstocks, hair in a pigtail, and a beat up daypack with communist country flags (patches) sewn on. [8P] Everyone knows hippies are harmless.
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I seem you have plenty of time on your hands to flame me at every chance, what is it you said you did for the military, and are you doing it against Americans?
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I don't flame anyone, I'm not that insecure. You got the right guy? But to answer your question, I used to be a Sergeant in the Marine Corps and I do have too much computer time on my hands these days.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:47:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stealth:
Originally Posted By andreusan:
Originally Posted By Stealth:
Originally Posted By Older Crow: Ratty deck shoes, shorts, Guy Harvey tee shirt, Devil Rays had and a guitar case!
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Great answer. How about tie-dye T-shirt with peace symbol, Ratty jeans, Birkenstocks, hair in a pigtail, and a beat up daypack with communist country flags (patches) sewn on. [8P] Everyone knows hippies are harmless.
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I seem you have plenty of time on your hands to flame me at every chance, what is it you said you did for the military, and are you doing it against Americans?
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I don't flame anyone, I'm not that insecure. You got the right guy? But to answer your question, I used to be a Sergeant in the Marine Corps and I do have too much computer time on my hands these days.
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This was not for you, sorry, it was for Grand Shooter, but I can not control who may be, lets say playing games, to cover their tracks!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:51:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter:
Originally Posted By andreusan: Hey, Grand Shooter, you have an awful lot of time to flame me at every chance, what was it you said you did for the military, and do you do it to Americans?
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Current USAR 62B30, 12B30 alternate(was primary, may be again soon), and of course I don't do it to Americans. Civilian side I sell military equipment. The computer stays on all day at work, so I check in when the time permits... hey someone needs to have as much time to call you on the crap you post as you do to post it!
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But no 11- or 18 series, very interesting indeed!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:56:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:57:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2001 12:56:22 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 1:15:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter:
Originally Posted By andreusan: But no 11- or 18 series, very interesting indeed!
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Nope, never claimed it, just claimed to know BS when I see it! Do you know what a 12B is?
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DAH, LET ME SEE, IS IT COMBAT EN WHOPS I FORGET HOW TO SPELL IT, BUT, IS NOT THE SCHOOL FOR SUCH MOS IN FORT LENNNNNORDDDD WOOOOOODDDDDDDSSSS, I BE WONDERIN, IFFEN I BEES RIGHTS?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 1:21:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 1:28:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2001 1:28:53 PM EDT by andreusan]
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter: Yep, only took ya 18 minutes to track it down online... not bad!
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Actually I have other posts to respond to, and can not respond to you as fast as you would like! You Believe what you will, I have nothing to prove, you said it all!!!!!! I do not have to seek out information on the web, I have you for that, so tell me about let's say, "charge calculations!"
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 1:33:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 1:37:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter:
Originally Posted By andreusan:
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter: Yep, only took ya 18 minutes to track it down online... not bad!
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Actually I have other posts to respond to, and can not respond to you as fast as you would like! You Believe what you will, I have nothing to prove, you said it all!!!!!! I do not have to seek out information on the web, I have you for that!!!!!
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Whatever, lets end this before the mods lock it as a pissing match. You go ahead and post what you want, and I will call BS when I see it, just like for anyone else. If it seems I am harassing you, its just that I guess I see more BS in your posts, thats all. As far a who is correct, I guess everyone here will have to make thier own decision. And thats all I have got to say about that here.
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Yea, but you like it, or you would not do it!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:18:43 PM EDT
andreusan - You would learn more and contribute more to the board if you would just ask honest questions about things you want to know, stop with the paranoid BS, and use a spellchecker. I AM 11-series and you do come off as being unknowledgeable about the military. You also need to clarify if you are talking MOUT or guerrilla warfare. In conventional MOUT you can't go around wearing civvies. OD and dark grey blend fairly well. If I was doing guerrilla warfare I would wear OD Dockers with a dark grey pullover anorack.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:48:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 11BravoE5: andreusan - You would learn more and contribute more to the board if you would just ask honest questions about things you want to know, stop with the paranoid BS, and use a spellchecker. I AM 11-series and you do come off as being unknowledgeable about the military. You also need to clarify if you are talking MOUT or guerrilla warfare. In conventional MOUT you can't go around wearing civvies. OD and dark grey blend fairly well. If I was doing guerrilla warfare I would wear OD Dockers with a dark grey pullover anorack.
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I am not paranoid, nor am I the perfect, but spelling is not the issue here, unless of course, you feel those who spell less that thou, are less than thou! Well finally someone who is 11 bang, bang, how about a P at the end? Anyway, since you asked: Let's say it is an urban situation, and MOUT tactics were deployed against the rebels, the rebels are strictly un-conventional and extremely versed in guerrilla operations, even are equipped with some of the same tech. toys that are used in todays army of one! So, do not make the mistake thinking that everything will be text book operations! MOUT tactics could take an area, but could they hold it against an onslaught of guerrilla ambushes, like in urban America where many of the population are already well armed? Just questions, I thought might enlighten some of the readers!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:55:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 5:07:18 PM EDT
What's so special about a "P" ASI? All it tells is that you could pass a PT test, didn't fall out of 2 runs, didn't get the same gig twice in 1 week during inspections (at least that's how it was in April '87 when I went through) and didn't appear to be too much of a danger to the other troops or the aircraft itself. When there's a "V" for the 5th digit in your MOS code, THEN you've earned my respect.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 5:10:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan: Well finally someone who is 11 bang, bang, how about a P at the end?
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Well what are you?
So, do not make the mistake thinking that everything will be text book operations!
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I don't.
MOUT tactics could take an area, but could they hold it against an onslaught of guerrilla ambushes, like in urban America where many of the population are already well armed?
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Defense is comparably easy in MOUT.
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