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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 7/13/2001 11:39:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2001 12:13:59 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
The F111 had a ejecting crew pod rather than ejection seats. Do you know if CAR-15s were issued or if anyone carried a CAR-15 with them on duty? I have sat in F111s and FB111's at airshows and there certainly seems to be room enough between the seats. And sure seems like one would make a much better survival weapon than handguns. Anyone know anything about this? I have heard that the Air Force was involved in the early development of the CAR and "Commando" types for just this reason, and because the XB-70 and B-1A were also designed with the escape pod system instead of ejector seats. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 12:01:44 PM EDT
Armd - We had a squadron of F111A's in central Thailand and I never saw a CAR among the crew. This was in 1974 and 1975 just before and during the fall of Saigon. Mostly we were flying recon and training missions by that time. I do not know what the official position might have been with regards to the CAR earlier in the war.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 12:08:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 12:14:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2001 12:12:34 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Thanks guys. GIB, that was probably the little folding .22/.410 over/under, think it was called the M6. Its unusual, because with the F111 escape capsule you could get away with carrying some kind of carbine. In a normal ejector seat, there is no really good way to attach the rifle to the seat without it getting torn off and lost. Many Army and Marine hielo pilots owe their lives to the fact that they could carry carbines with them in their cockpits and use them to defend themselves when shot down. It seemed like the F111 crews could have done the same thing.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 12:26:14 PM EDT
My brother was crew chief for 111`s in plattsburgh when they mothballed them. I can ask him and get back to you if you want.....[smoke]
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 12:33:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2001 12:31:53 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By black&green: My brother was crew chief for 111`s in plattsburgh when they mothballed them. I can ask him and get back to you if you want.....[smoke]
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Sure, thanks. I know that they weren't issuing CAR's by the time of the Gulf War, but if he knows if anyone brought their own to the party. I know that lots of pilots bought Glocks and Sigs with their own money for the Gulf War because the Navy and Air Force were still stocking squadron arms rooms with .38 revolvers. And this was seven years after the M9 was supposedly made standard. Since F111's had more room to stash stuff, I wonder if someone took advantage of the situation and brought their own carbine.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 12:39:28 PM EDT
You know, it`s funny, but we never talked about small arms. I was always interested in his aircraft experiences, and we do a lot of fishing, but other than our own interests, we never brought up what the air force issued or the guys carried. I`ll get into it. What he HAS told me, is about what some of them bought overseas and shipped home, because they saved so much money doing it. Those days are over now.......get back to you......k.k.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 2:01:59 PM EDT
Lbrl, I would definitely feel better armed with a long gun than most pistols, but do long arms really provide that much of an edge for a downed pilot? I would think that in most cases, the pilot (ala Scott OGrady) would be trying to keep a very low profile prior to rescue rather than getting into firefights with inevitably superior enemy forces. Not a flame, I am just curious about an interesting topic. Along these lines, did that Davis Arm Gun (.223 rotating grip pistol using AR15 mags) ever get any operational use at all, or was it always just an idea? I seem to recall that the Davis gun was a candidate to provide aircrew with a little more firepower (and a lot more hearing loss).
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 2:15:06 PM EDT
Yes you do want to hide most of the time. But you have to come out of hiding in order to get to the Jolly Green Giant when it came for you. And a LOT of the extractions in Vietnam were hot. It would take two or three Jolly Greens and as many as eight Skyraders to get a pilot out. Also quite a few of our airmen were apprehended by militamen armed with nothing more than a rusty Nagant or Lebel. Of course what we are talking about only applies to F111 crews. All other airmen were SOL, they didnt have the crew capsule to carry extra luggage in. And Army and Marine helicopter pilots in the South allways stayed with their wreck and shot it out with the bad guys when they came. It was the easist way to get rescued. Some of the firefights around helicopter crashes were extreamly vicious.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 2:21:58 PM EDT
Arm, I was stationed at RAF Fairford, Raf Upper Heyford and RAF Lakenheath during the late 70's into the early 80's. I remember as a SPS that most of the air crews just carried regular sidearms with no long guns present. I had a lot of contact with the life support guys and I never once saw any XM177E's anywhere except in the hands of a few SP's like myself. Upper Heyford was home to the 20th TFW and Lakenheath was home to the 48th TFW. I also remember having to dodge a FB-111 from Upper Heyford one afternoon at Fairford, he lost power on rotation and slid off the end of the runway, I don't even remember if they had sidearms on them but when removed from the acft the cockpit had no weapons in it. Don't know if that helps any.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 2:26:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BarracudaBob: Arm, I was stationed at RAF Fairford, Raf Upper Heyford and RAF Lakenheath during the late 70's into the early 80's. I remember as a SPS that most of the air crews just carried regular sidearms with no long guns present. I had a lot of contact with the life support guys and I never once saw any XM177E's anywhere except in the hands of a few SP's like myself. Upper Heyford was home to the 20th TFW and Lakenheath was home to the 48th TFW. I also remember having to dodge a FB-111 from Upper Heyford one afternoon at Fairford, he lost power on rotation and slid off the end of the runway, I don't even remember if they had sidearms on them but when removed from the acft the cockpit had no weapons in it. Don't know if that helps any.
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Thanks man, its begining to look like it wasnt a common thing. If someone did do it it looks like it would be either in Vietnam or in the Gulf, not during peace time. And it looks like they werent issue items. Funny, it seems like such a good idea to me.
Link Posted: 7/14/2001 6:06:40 AM EDT
ArmdLbrl......here`s how my brother stated....the only small arms the aircrews carried, including s`east asia, were s&w 38`s....in the states, sometimes the ground crews were issued 38`s to carry on the flightline, but only in times of tight security or excersizes.....he had to qualify on m16`s and the 38`s during his time (22 yrs) the aircrews did not carry sidearms, except for excersizes or special weapons deployment (nukes...alert status)....m9`s were being issued to le`s and security personell only at his time....he retired right after the fb111`s were mothballed.....he said he never saw a longgun in a fb111.........B&G
Link Posted: 7/14/2001 6:59:48 PM EDT
[sleep]
Link Posted: 7/14/2001 7:10:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By black&green: ArmdLbrl......here`s how my brother stated....the only small arms the aircrews carried, including s`east asia, were s&w 38`s....in the states, sometimes the ground crews were issued 38`s to carry on the flightline, but only in times of tight security or excersizes.....he had to qualify on m16`s and the 38`s during his time (22 yrs) the aircrews did not carry sidearms, except for excersizes or special weapons deployment (nukes...alert status)....m9`s were being issued to le`s and security personell only at his time....he retired right after the fb111`s were mothballed.....he said he never saw a longgun in a fb111.........B&G
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Thank you for asking. You would think that someone would have tried it. At least in Vietnam.
Link Posted: 7/14/2001 7:21:40 PM EDT
Well....for a couple of reasons.....the protocol was/is pretty much cut and dry......aircrews have a specified mission and the idea of needing any extra equipment is not standard practice, as well as the possibility of a survival situation.....aircrews in wartime carry sidearms only, in the rare instance that they need to exit the aircraft.....just goes AGAINST thier mindset..........
Link Posted: 7/14/2001 8:19:19 PM EDT
My time spent with the 380th in Plattsburgh never got me closer than the alert kitchen to a 111. I can only tell you the crews were well fed.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:05:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2001 5:03:15 AM EDT by black-guns]
Originally Posted By gastrap: My time spent with the 380th in Plattsburgh never got me closer than the alert kitchen to a 111. I can only tell you the crews were well fed.
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Gastrap......you know Jeff Addison?..........(380 oms..i still have one of the caps)
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 1:07:09 PM EDT
[sleep]
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 1:08:24 PM EDT
[sleep]
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 5:15:36 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 7/15/2001 8:06:18 PM EDT
Addison doesn't ring a bell, It has been 15 years though.Do you remember "pops" ?
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