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Posted: 7/11/2001 6:22:10 AM EDT
I am in the market for a decent ( ~2 moa ) .308 rifle for plinking and target shooting. My first thought was to buy a m1a. After about two weeks of looking around, asking questions, and combing the internet I must say that I am completely disgusted with the state of the m1a market. What do I mean? $1200-1300 for a 2-3 moa rifle with a so-so receiver? ( standard springfield ) $1700 for 1-2 moa rifle with a so-so receiver? $2300-1900 for 1 moa rifle with a great receiver? ( fulton armory or smith enterprises with a winchester, trw, or polytech receiver ) What the hell is so damn costly about these rifles that it is going to cost almost twice as much as a match grade ar15? This is just plain ridiculous. While I am sure the m1a itself is a good rifle, I am not going to spend 1500 for a 2 moa rifle that uses $50 magazines. For me, it is not worth it. I am going the FAL route. It is not as accurate but a hell of alot more bang for the buck. Can anyone enlighten me as to why the m1a is so expensive?
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:25:26 AM EDT
I got my M1A standard for only $1095... reasonable for a very venerable rifle in my opinion...
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:27:38 AM EDT
I think you can get a base line Springfield M1A with a synthetic stock for $1100. There are quite a few specials running right now. I've seen Polytech and Norinco M-14's going for $600-$800 on the boards from time to time. FALs can be had for $500-$1500 depending on what you want.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:33:22 AM EDT
The Polytech's may be had for $600-800, but the only good part on one is the receiver. Dump another $1200 into it and you can have a nice SAFE rifle. Like Darin, I looked very hard at the M1As before I finally decided I'd rather spend my money on an AR. I couldn't justify the price either. The synthetic stock M1A Springfield may be available for $1100, but it still won't give you more than 2-3 MOA out of the box. My next .308 will be a bolt gun.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:35:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:41:55 AM EDT
If you are merely interested in a military type .308 rifle for plinking, and accuracy is not a big deal, I would buy an FAL. I have an STG "parts gun," and it shoots great. More fun than my Armscorp M14 "parts gun." The FAL is never going to be as accurate as an M1A, however. For $725, my STG is just fine, and I would not trade it for another M1A. The mags are cheap - five dollars for a genuine Austrian mag, slightly used. Just my thoughts. John
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:51:33 AM EDT
I paid $1100 for my M1A about three years ago. It came with three 20 rd mags. It was one of the "Loaded" rifles. Magazines can be had for $31 each from Coles if you buy 10. My rifle will shoot MOA with Black Hills match ammo or LC M118LR all day long. It is in a standard USGI fiberglass stock and is not glass bedded. When someone tells me that their M1A is not accurate it is usually the shooter.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:02:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Darin Marple: What the hell is so damn costly about these rifles that it is going to cost almost twice as much as a match grade ar15? This is just plain ridiculous. Can anyone enlighten me as to why the m1a is so expensive?
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Competition and mass production. Essentially, you only have ONE company mass producing M1A's - Springfield (forget the Chinese junk) Essentially, Springfield has NO comptetition that, by its nature, drives prices down. You have many companies competing for AR15 sales. When there are many companies who want your dollars, they find innovative ways to cut costs while maintaining acceptable quality, so they can be priced just a little bit lower than teh next guy, and you will buy from them. This has happened over a number of years, to the point you can buy TWO AR's for teh price of 1 M1A. But Springfield can charge whatever the market will bear since they have no other companies to keep them in check. Also, remember the Supply and Demand principle. Certain people DEMAND the M1A. Springfield is the ONLY one supplying them. In summary, it has less to do with ballistics than it does economics.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:07:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 7:04:54 AM EDT by garandman]
Also, look at the cost of components. AR - gas tube $50. M1A - op rod $150. AR - alum receiver set $300 M1A - milled steel receiver $550. AR - plastic stock (just make more) $60 M1A - wood stock (enviromentalists won't let you cut down a tree) $100 Right there, you have almost $400 in cost difference.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:17:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Also, look at the cost of components. AR - plastic stock (just make more) $60 M1A - wood stock (enviromentalists won't let you cut down a tree) $100 Right there, you have almost $400 in cost difference.
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PHULEEZE keep it honest! Freds has stocks for $10 and up. USGI wood and plastic. You should be ashamed[smoke]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:23:55 AM EDT
YADABLADA, buy a M1A and for $99 you get a scope and scope mount worth about $600. The M1A can be loaded by stripper clips faster than you can change mags; except when scoped. M1As with black plastic stocks are going for $900 in Florida.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:25:40 AM EDT
Don't be "scarecrowing" the M1A[smoke]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:28:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 7:34:05 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: PHULEEZE keep it honest! Freds has stocks for $10 and up. USGI wood and plastic. You should be ashamed[smoke]
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I'm talking about a match grade palm swelled stock. The poster was talking about an ACCURATE gun. The quality of the stock is CRITICAL to M1A accuracy. The quality of the AR stock is ALMOST irrelevant. No offense, but pay more attention. PUHLEEZE.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:32:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: YADABLADA, buy a M1A and for $99 you get a scope and scope mount worth about $600. The M1A can be loaded by stripper clips faster than you can change mags; except when scoped. M1As with black plastic stocks are going for $900 in Florida.
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I would be wary of the Springfield 6x40 scope and Gen III mount. I bought one with the coupon and was very disappointed. IMO it was a POS. The lens were blurry at the edges and the mount had problems with the POI changing. You would be better off with an ARMS or Brookfield if you can find one.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:37:26 AM EDT
I was gonna say..... I'm fairly sure that you can get a "loaded" NMM1A with all the toys for about the same price as a NMAR15. I shot M14s for a day or two...I am just waitin' to build a couple of M1As for "long-range" Service rifle. MMMMM the Ad in "Gun List" reports the "loaded" M1A for $1200, with the scope & mount. Not too shabby. (here is one with a "starlite" scope for $2500)lol
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:38:04 AM EDT
The $10 wood stocks look like they were used as an oar or to drive tent pegs.Look at how much for one you would put on a new rifle. As far as the Chinese stuff,its crap.Don't understand why anyone would buy a rifle throw away all the parts except the reciever.now if something is wrong who is going to fix it.Forged is nice but there is nothing wrong with a good casting.It seems bent shhet metal is even cheaper but H&K seems to be doing fine with it. Every M1A I ever shot would do 2".At least the 7 or 8 I've shot seriously.The three that was rebeded went down to 11/2" or less. Seriously the average AR does no better than 2"
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:44:33 AM EDT
"I would be wary of the Springfield 6x40 scope and Gen III mount. I bought one with the coupon and was very disappointed. IMO it was a POS. The lens were blurry at the edges and the mount had problems with the POI changing. " I was going to take advantage of that offer but I've heard the same complaint from others. If you do get an m1a, get it with a wood stock. The springfield synthetic isn't that great.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:47:18 AM EDT
I forgot about the 50.oo mags.You are right there is no reason for them being that high.Then agian no reason for 20-30 ona AR mag or a 100 Glock or 38 super
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:49:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 7:46:31 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
Oh dear Lord. Remember all the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands I went through when I had to shuck out $685 for a brand new rack grade Springfield Armory M1A (pre ban of course) that now sleeps silently in my safe. Thank you!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:57:54 AM EDT
I can't believe all of this blasphemy I'm hearing about my newest prize! Granted I haven't shot it yet, and I'm still waiting for my coupon dealed scope in the mail, but I could stare at my m1A all day and night long. I never hear negative things about them though... until now that is... Don't make me regret my $1100 purchase... it was between the M1A and of course the FAL, but in the end, I had to go with the American classic...
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 8:28:33 AM EDT
I know everyone loves bashing the Polytech M14's, but I love mine. It is extremely accurate and a great gun to shoot. Expecially when I only paid around 500 dollars for it.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 8:34:11 AM EDT
Exactly where do you get a Winchester or TRW receiver? I think not,unless a weld. The Polytechs just need a bolt,the rest is OK cp
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 8:35:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 8:34:47 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By 7: I know everyone loves bashing the Polytech M14's, but I love mine. It is extremely accurate and a great gun to shoot. Expecially when I only paid around 500 dollars for it.
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I don't think anyone would argue that there aren't some good ones out there. Its just that if you walked up to a rack of 50 of 'em, pulling down a good one is akin to the odds of winning the daily lotto. [:D] If you got a good one, KEEP IT. And go play the lottery tonite. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 9:03:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 11BravoE5: I would be wary of the Springfield 6x40 scope and Gen III mount. I bought one with the coupon and was very disappointed. IMO it was a POS. The lens were blurry at the edges and the mount had problems with the POI changing. You would be better off with an ARMS or Brookfield if you can find one.
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Exactly what he said. My Springfield variable "government" scope was a gimmicky POS. The bubble level was great for making sure your rifle WASN'T level, and looking through the scope was like looking through a paper towel tube. Their genIII mount has those ridiculous large knurled knobs on the side which leads you to believe that you can get by with only hand tightening (absolutely not!). As far as the M1a goes, I bought mine with a beautiful wood stock back when they were only around $800 in '90. After I learned that the scope mount must be tightened with a screwdriver, replacing the "govt" scope with a Swarovski, and using my 168gr handloads, it would consistently shoot just under 1 MOA. This was a standard model without any kind of "accurizing" whatsoever. It did, however, have an annoying tendency to have the gas plug come loose all the time and the rear sight elevation would change under elevation. This was despite all efforts at tightening. I came down with a case of temporary insanity a couple years ago, and sold the whole thing complete with 500 rds ammo for only $1100. The current price for M1a's is just too ridiculous.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 9:04:17 AM EDT
Get a FAL.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 9:15:32 AM EDT
target shooting ar15 half the price for same acuracy. plinking fal spend the$750 to $850 for the iai m444 or get the dsa kit gun. both great guns used metric mags $6 and you can get new ones for around $8 and from cdnn new with loader for $9.99 lets see: #1 m444 fal $750 #2 case of 1000 308 military surplus ammo $150 #3 5 new mags with loaders $50 #4 5 used mags $30 #5 sight adjustment tool and gas wrench $30 #6 usgi lbe setup to carry everything $35 total $1045 and if you shop around those prices might be a little better. myself bought m444 for $700, mags were $5 to $10 and found lbe stup at flea market for a few bucks and the ammo was $139. so I have around $979 in to everything. most likely right around what it would cost you for a decent ar15 set up. m1a's are great but $45 a mag is crazy and if you want spare parts for it its costly .for the fal just buy a complete extra kit for your rifle and you get everything but a receiver for around $200 depending on what you want.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 9:23:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: The Polytech's may be had for $600-800, but the only good part on one is the receiver. Dump another $1200 into it and you can have a nice SAFE rifle.
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No offense intended but you have been given wrong information. The only bad parts of the Chinese M-14S is the rear sight and op rod spring(Interchangeable with G.I.. The question of the bolt hardness is debatable(can be swapped for G.I. with little fitting required). The receivers are hammer forged, just like U.S.G.I. not machined from castings or billets. You can buy the Chinese M-14S for half the price of a Springfield standard M1A, send it out to have the bolt changed to U.S.G.I. and replace Op rod spring and guide and the rear sight yourself. You will have a rifle as good and compared to the new Springfields, better for hundreds of dollars less. The only parts that can't be replaced with G.I. is the castle nut, the gas cylinder lock and plug( all metric threads). Those can be replaced if you put on a G.I. barrel. Your quote of $1200.00 in upgrades is interesting. My guess is that comes from Fulton (rip off) Armory. Any M-14 mechanic can lap the bolt in and the rest can be done by you if you feel the need. I have a Polytech (pre 89) with the following G.I. parts; Bolt(TRW), trigger group(HRA), rear sight, op rod spring and guide and stock. I have around $800.00 in it. I will gladly put it up against any other standard M-14 clone.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 9:52:47 AM EDT
M1 Garand and M1A owners/shooters/lovers are your betters. Do not flame us or our beloved rifles. Respect us and we will respect you! [smoke]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:18:25 AM EDT
I was going to stay out of this, but... I have a NM that I picked up a for 1500 a good while back. I've put many rounds through it, never had any problems. The receiver is well strong enough. Mine shoots well under 1 moa with a scope and good ammo. Why so expensive??? It is a weapon of steel and wood, crafted for a rifleman. M1a/M1 have about the best trigger going. Not easy to make, not easy to prep, but when I drop the hammer on my M1, I know where the money went. Sights are another place where your money goes. Yea they are expensive, I wish they were not. But if you buy a new FAL type weapon, you are going to spend the same or more. And by new, I don't mean kit fal guns (nothing wrong with them, but lets compair apples to apples).
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:27:03 AM EDT
I think Garandman had it right - SA has no real competition. If there were six different M1A manufacturers out there, the prices wouldn't be so high. But like I said, my next .308 will be a bolt gun.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:35:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: M1 Garand and M1A owners/shooters/lovers are your betters. Do not flame us or our beloved rifles. Respect us and we will respect you! [smoke]
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Hangfire, I am not flaming anyone. I did not say that the m1a is a piece of crap or that it does not shoot well. I am just disappointed at the level of bull and the price I will pay for this rifle. It is way too much! That is my beef and since I am not looking for a match gun I am going with the FAL. All I was looking for was some idea why this gun is priced so badly. Also, my post was based on the shopping I had done, I have not found some of the deals others have talked about, but I am sure they exist.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:36:06 AM EDT
I think I can solve your problem... Get A Garand in .308(I prefer 30.06) You get a real quality GI rifle and "restored" examples are available for 700 to 1200(some more, some less) I also think the M1a's are overpriced. I'll stick with a garand. [x]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:36:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scipio: I can't believe all of this blasphemy I'm hearing about my newest prize! Granted I haven't shot it yet, and I'm still waiting for my coupon dealed scope in the mail, but I could stare at my m1A all day and night long. I never hear negative things about them though... until now that is... Don't make me regret my $1100 purchase... it was between the M1A and of course the FAL, but in the end, I had to go with the American classic...
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Hell yes it is a classic and I bet good money it will shoot well. It is just a bit pricy for my taste :)
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:38:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr Clean: If you are merely interested in a military type .308 rifle for plinking, and accuracy is not a big deal, I would buy an FAL. I have an STG "parts gun," and it shoots great. More fun than my Armscorp M14 "parts gun." The FAL is never going to be as accurate as an M1A, however. For $725, my STG is just fine, and I would not trade it for another M1A. The mags are cheap - five dollars for a genuine Austrian mag, slightly used. Just my thoughts. John
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Yep, accuracy is not a big deal for me and that is why I chose the FAL. That and the cheap mags!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:40:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Also, look at the cost of components. AR - gas tube $50. M1A - op rod $150. AR - alum receiver set $300 M1A - milled steel receiver $550. AR - plastic stock (just make more) $60 M1A - wood stock (enviromentalists won't let you cut down a tree) $100 Right there, you have almost $400 in cost difference.
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Yeah, the mass market, competition angle sounds reasonable. I guess the "black gun" just beat out the m1a with numbers, gov contracts, etc and that would explain the price difference.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 12:20:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Darin Marple:
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: M1 Garand and M1A owners/shooters/lovers are your betters. Do not flame us or our beloved rifles. Respect us and we will respect you! [smoke]
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Hangfire, I am not flaming anyone. I did not say that the m1a is a piece of crap or that it does not shoot well. I am just disappointed at the level of bull and the price I will pay for this rifle. It is way too much! That is my beef and since I am not looking for a match gun I am going with the FAL. All I was looking for was some idea why this gun is priced so badly. Also, my post was based on the shopping I had done, I have not found some of the deals others have talked about, but I am sure they exist.
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Enjoy!![smoke]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 1:10:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 1:16:17 PM EDT by ctrmass]
Darrin, do you go to gun shows? Last half dozen shows I've gone to (in Pennsylvania)I saw brand new SA M1A's for under $1000. All had the desireable GI parts in them(op rod, trig group, bbl etc). I'm confident they'd be capable of 2 moa with any decent ammo. As far as $150.00 op rods, go to the CMP's web site. (I think it's ODCMP.com) The prices just went up (used to be $35.00) but still much cheaper than full retail. They have almost everything but the barrel, receiver, and gas systems. All good prices, and used but "servicable" parts. Some look new. Eric
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 1:51:53 PM EDT
I didn't read this whole thread cause I have to run out and get Taco Bell. But after I get some chow,I will finish the thread. But from my personal experience the M1A is a great rifle. I think they are some what expensive but everything in this world is. More then ever. I think if they shaved a few hundred it would be a better deal. I have a loaded with ss bbl and I can tell you with gold medal match 168 gr I shoot 1 moa consistantly. At 200 yards I did 1 3/4 MOA. One day a guy was leaving the range and gave me 3 handloads of his. He said try this then he split. So after he left I shot the 3 rounds. Well this rifle shot 1/2 MOA. So I don't know where you get 2-3MOA from. They are kick ass guns. I have seen this attitude a few times with other people at the range. Some people just don't like the M1A. I can't see why. If they were cheaper I would buy another one for my son. Alot of people hate the AR also. I love them both. Good luck. I got to go I am hungry.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 1:54:15 PM EDT
Would I buy another M1a for what I have invested in my current M1a? No. Am I happy with my "investment"? Yes! I put a alot of money in this "shooter", and it will still outshoot me anytime. I don't handload, but with premium ammo, I'll shoot sub moa no problem (with the $3-$5 dollar a box ammo I'll shoot sub 2" groups). Best gun I have for shooting with iron sights as well. One other thing, no matter what gun I bring out to the range, that M1a with the McMillian fiberglass stock always get's the looks, and the comment "that's a nice looking gun". Guess it's "ownership pride". My .02
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 2:32:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ctrmass: Darrin, do you go to gun shows? Last half dozen shows I've gone to (in Pennsylvania)I saw brand new SA M1A's for under $1000. All had the desireable GI parts in them(op rod, trig group, bbl etc). I'm confident they'd be capable of 2 moa with any decent ammo. As far as $150.00 op rods, go to the CMP's web site. (I think it's ODCMP.com) The prices just went up (used to be $35.00) but still much cheaper than full retail. They have almost everything but the barrel, receiver, and gas systems. All good prices, and used but "servicable" parts. Some look new. Eric
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I don't find much in the way of an m1a at the saxet here in texas. I tell you thought, I am surprised at some of the prices people are talking about on the board. I haven't seen anything of the kind. Oh well, maybe I haven't been looking in the right places.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 2:45:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: The Polytech's may be had for $600-800, but the only good part on one is the receiver. Dump another $1200 into it and you can have a nice SAFE rifle. Like Darin, I looked very hard at the M1As before I finally decided I'd rather spend my money on an AR. I couldn't justify the price either. The synthetic stock M1A Springfield may be available for $1100, but it still won't give you more than 2-3 MOA out of the box. My next .308 will be a bolt gun.
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Either I'm doing something very right or you guys are doing something very wrong, because my standard M1A shoots 2MOA on my BAD days. When I do my part, I get between 1 and 1.5MOA. BTW, this is with a 13-year-old iron-sighted, USGI fiberglass-stocked standard M1A ($600 back in the days from Jim's Pawn & Gun, Fayetteville NC), with 8000 rounds or so through it and using CAVIM or UMC Yellow Box ammo.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 3:48:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Darin Marple: I am in the market for a decent ( ~2 moa ) .308 rifle for plinking and target shooting. My first thought was to buy a m1a. After about two weeks of looking around, asking questions, and combing the internet I must say that I am completely disgusted with the state of the m1a market. What do I mean? $1200-1300 for a 2-3 moa rifle with a so-so receiver? ( standard springfield ) $1700 for 1-2 moa rifle with a so-so receiver? $2300-1900 for 1 moa rifle with a great receiver? ( fulton armory or smith enterprises with a winchester, trw, or polytech receiver ) What the hell is so damn costly about these rifles that it is going to cost almost twice as much as a match grade ar15? This is just plain ridiculous. While I am sure the m1a itself is a good rifle, I am not going to spend 1500 for a 2 moa rifle that uses $50 magazines. For me, it is not worth it. I am going the FAL route. It is not as accurate but a hell of alot more bang for the buck. Can anyone enlighten me as to why the m1a is so expensive?
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I bought a "loaded"M1A for 1300 and i like it a lot.Stayaway from Springfields scope mount,it is a hunk of shit.I saw a guy with the same rifle as me and he had a new A.R.M.S. mount.I am getting one! [sniper]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 4:10:05 PM EDT
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