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Posted: 7/11/2001 4:57:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 5:03:10 AM EDT by andreusan]
Your thoughts, as to this un-authorized* standing army in America! un-authorized* meaning un-authorized by our constitution, and UNITED NATIONS Authorized under STATE DEPARTMENT agreements to disarm americans made in the 1960's on President Kennedy's watch! Visit [url]www.i2i.org/SuptDocs/Waco/CanSoldiersBePeaceOfficers.htm
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 5:05:58 AM EDT
A few months back, Soldier of Fortune ran an article about this... I think they said that in a matter of a few years, memebers of police paramilitary organizations shot up from about 3500 in '91 to like 36,000 in '96... Don't quote me on it, but it was something like that. Alot of them have shitty training with a shoot first ask questions later mentality... sort of like me, but I have some good training at least...haha
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 5:09:45 AM EDT
The link to STATE DEPARTMENT PUBLICATION #7277 during the Kennedy reign! READ & WEEP! [url]www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17280
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 5:15:44 AM EDT
**SIGH** Guys. Let's please give this topic a rest. -SARguy
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 5:41:48 AM EDT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Stickman: How many does this make in just the past week or so? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Way too many. Master Sergeant Stanley W. Talbot Illinois State Police, IL End of Watch: 06/23/2001 Cause of Death: Vehicular assault Trooper James A. Moen Alaska State Troopers - Fish and Wildlife Protection, AK End of Watch: 06/25/2001 Cause of Death: Aircraft accident Captain Tommy F. Bernal Fairfax County Police Department, VA End of Watch: 06/28/2001 Cause of Death: Motorcycle accident Police Officer Brian T. Strouse Chicago Police Department, IL End of Watch: 06/30/2001 Cause of Death: Gunfire Sheriff Harold Ray Presley Lee County Sheriff's Department, MS End of Watch: 07/06/2001 Cause of Death: Gunfire Officer Lois M. Marrero Tampa Police Department, FL End of Watch: 07/06/2001 Cause of Death: Gunfire Patrolman Dominick Infantes Jr. Jersey City Police Department, NJ End of Watch: 07/06/2001 Cause of Death: Assault Chief of Police Cecil Gurr Roosevelt Police Department, UT End of Watch: 07/06/2001 Cause of Death: Gunfire Patrolman Rodney Kendricks Lubbock Police Department, TX End of Watch: 07/08/2001 Cause of Death: Motorcycle accident Patrol Officer Justin T. Wollam Anchorage Police Department, AK End of Watch: 07/09/2001 Cause of Death: Vehicular assault Hmmmm, I wonder why the police would want to be better armed. Doesn't the Constitution mention a militia?? Wouldnt that be able bodied armed civilains with training and a rank structure?
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 5:48:57 AM EDT
Most Police are truly good people. Now, that said there are a few exceptions: 1) Miami Police 2) D.C. Police 3) BATF 4) FBI 5) INS Now, I have been all over the southeast United States, and some of the Caribieen Islands. And these are the worst police I have seen or heard of. I did not include NYPD, Chicago PD, or LAPD since I have never been to any of those places. I grew up in South Florida and spent alot of time in Miami, and can personally tell of the brtuallity of the MPD. Some of them especially hate Hispanics, others hate Blacks. Some just have a Rambo attitude. The anti-black sentiment has somewhat disappeared since 1980, when the Liberty City Riots occured. But, the Anti-Hispanic attitude has persisted. If you were in South Florida after the Elian Raid, no matter how you felt about the INS's Rambo tactics, you would have seen Miami Police on TV beating women & children. One incident involved a women asking for donations for a legal fund. At least a dozen MPD officers surrounded her and beat her senseless with their nightsticks. They put her on trial, and the other day she was aquitted. The jury found the testimony of 12 Miami Police to be outrageous, and unbelievable. Now, on to the D.C. Police. I have visited D.C. a number of times, and I saw this on one of my visits. I was near the Smithsonian, when I saw several D.C. Police throw a man to the ground and use excessive force. Now, seeing this I asked somebody what the guy did. Seeing the amount of force used I assumed he was a violent criminal or a felon. So what did he do, he was selling sunglasses on Government Property (In Front of the Smithsonian) without a liscense. As far as the ATF and FBI go, I just need to say Waco or Ruby Ridge. Then there is the INS, who seem to have a Rambo complex. There was an incident a while back, out in the southwest U.S. where a group of INS agents burst into a restraunt full of people armed with M-16's (Select Fire) in order to arrest some illegal immigrants who worked there. They basically scared the shit out of the customers and had no need for Automatic Weapons since, these people were just illegal mexicans working in a restraunt. What, did the expect them to have Automatic Weapons in a restraunt. Come on. Arming the police doesn't create a standing army. On the other hand, the arming and use of certain Federal Agencies with Automatic Weapons does constitute a Paramilitary force. Now, there are a few exceptions (Good Agencies), including the DEA and Customs. These people are tasked with stopping contra-band coming into or drugs within the U.S.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:08:05 AM EDT
I think the main problem is that isolated incidents get either blown out of proportion, or are put in totally different context by the paranoid crowd. Sure, I agree with the fact that there are a few bad LEO's. But there are bad plumbers, mechanics, and soldiers too. It seems as though isolated bad press never goes away. I don't tell LE how to conduct LE operations, and they sure don't tell me how to conduct SAR ops. Unless you've BTDT and know about the specific operation, you can't comment. Like the restaurant raid that cc48510 describes, what if they had info that someone was heavily armed? If that had been the case and there was a shootout with a group of poorly armed agents where civilians were killed, everyone would say "why weren't they armed properly?" See where I'm going? But, in any case, discretion should always be used. I want the guys protecting my family when I'm away to have the capability to go toe to toe with any criminal element they come in contact with. But that hardly constitutes a standing army. -SARguy
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:31:02 AM EDT
Arming the police doesn't create a standing army. On the other hand, the arming and use of certain Federal Agencies with Automatic Weapons does constitute a Paramilitary force. Now, there are a few exceptions (Good Agencies), including the DEA and Customs. These people are tasked with stopping contra-band coming into or drugs within the U.S.
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The rank structure, and the violation of their oaths do create an un-authorized standing army, you need to study the constitution to understand this, then defend them if you can! You say the DEA is good, then why did they with the help of the FBI plant cocane in an individuals auto, a couple of years back, as witnessed and stated in open court in Tampa by two Florida Troopers? Sure the DEA is good, at setting up the un-guilty!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 9:33:44 AM EDT
I had something to say but you are an idiot and I won't waste my time. Except to say grow up.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:01:33 AM EDT
Hmmmmm....being on the sharp end of the stick, I am more militarized. I spent 7 years in combat arms in the Army. I was selected to try out for Delta, didn't make it, but were you selected? I carry an AR along with my Glock 22 on duty. I used to be SWAT in my younger days. I have trained with NASA SWAT (Alert Reaction Force). The simple reason that SWAT is getting "militarized", is criminals are more militarized. Also simply put, SAS, Delta, SEAL Team 6, and others who developed hostage rescue tactics are the military. The tactics work where traditional billyclub, and .38 revolver don't. If your loved ones are being held hostage, do you want someone who has trained, and has proper equipment, or Barney Fife? Law Enforcement is simply responding to increased threats that just were not there 30 years ago. When I got my first Colt SP1 after getting out of the Army in 83, there were not a lot of folks around who had them. Hardly anyone had an AK, if they did they were bring homes from Nam. Now everbody has an SKS, AK, HK, or AR, or all of the above. Andreusan, when you get the guts to go out and face an armed felon who has a rifle, and you only get a wheel gun, then I might give your concern a bit more of a listen. Until then, Tough Shit Bud!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:02:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By uncle buck: I had something to say but you are an idiot and I won't waste my time. Except to say grow up.
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Uncle Buck, I growded all up, and read the constitution, bill of rights, the federalist papers, the war and emergency powers act, and the links I provided in the beginning of this post, and eyes keeps cumimg 2 the sames con clue sions, I bees livin in a NATION ruled by tyrants, how coulds dis bees UNCLE BUCK???? PLEASE, PLEASE, UNCLE BUCK, HELPS ME UN DA STAND WHY EYE BEES AND IDIOT 2!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:08:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 12:07:45 PM EDT
AndreusaN, what does your therapist say about your violent tendencies, paranoia, and inability to differentiate between good and bad people of different occupations. You may be all grown up and educated, but it takes more than that for you to shed the title of idiot you so obviously deserve. You spew forth such hatred and venom towards LEO, have you ever done time!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 12:12:23 PM EDT
First off the leo's in this country became a standing army when they started to have more in common with delta,seal,para-rescue,recon then the average law-abiding citizen. I have no objection to arming police effectivly as long as law-abiding citizens have the same options. Although I do not agree with the NFA I understand it and have no problem registering NFA items as long as they are still available to law-abiding citizens if they are available to LEO. As for the militia argument acording to the Dick Act (unsure of year) Militia's consist of all able bodied males age 18-65 with elected officers. NO AR do you want Police departments to have elected Officer's if you are saying they are militia's? Not to mention they are to have no government support, no money, no nothing. Not to mention that in Miller vs. USA the supremes said that a "militia has no use for a sawed-off shotgun" so are you going to give up those neat 14" shotguns in favor of an 18" one? Just a few questions.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 12:18:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stg44: Hmmmmm....being on the sharp end of the stick, I am more militarized. I spent 7 years in combat arms in the Army. I was selected to try out for Delta, didn't make it, but were you selected? I carry an AR along with my Glock 22 on duty. I used to be SWAT in my younger days. I have trained with NASA SWAT (Alert Reaction Force). The simple reason that SWAT is getting "militarized", is criminals are more militarized. Also simply put, SAS, Delta, SEAL Team 6, and others who developed hostage rescue tactics are the military. The tactics work where traditional billyclub, and .38 revolver don't. If your loved ones are being held hostage, do you want someone who has trained, and has proper equipment, or Barney Fife? Law Enforcement is simply responding to increased threats that just were not there 30 years ago. When I got my first Colt SP1 after getting out of the Army in 83, there were not a lot of folks around who had them. Hardly anyone had an AK, if they did they were bring homes from Nam. Now everbody has an SKS, AK, HK, or AR, or all of the above. Andreusan, when you get the guts to go out and face an armed felon who has a rifle, and you only get a wheel gun, then I might give your concern a bit more of a listen. Until then, Tough Shit Bud!
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Sounds good to the unknowing, but tell me this, when was the last time you confronted a perp with and SKS, AK, HK, AR, OR other rifle? You obviously believe the bull excrement from those so-called militia watch groups don't you? Much less, I'd bet your hole damn department cannot even come up with maybe 5 in the past year! As for someone holding a family member in my home hostage? The bigger threat is LAW ENFORCEMENT, raiding the wrong house, like mine! I perfer an armed to the teeth population, over BS LEO's who are legends in their own minds! You infer I have no balls, you just hang on to that thought for awhile, buddy!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 12:24:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ADTECHARMS: First off the leo's in this country became a standing army when they started to have more in common with delta,seal,para-rescue,recon then the average law-abiding citizen. I have no objection to arming police effectivly as long as law-abiding citizens have the same options. Although I do not agree with the NFA I understand it and have no problem registering NFA items as long as they are still available to law-abiding citizens if they are available to LEO. As for the militia argument acording to the Dick Act (unsure of year) Militia's consist of all able bodied males age 18-65 with elected officers. NO AR do you want Police departments to have elected Officer's if you are saying they are militia's? Not to mention they are to have no government support, no money, no nothing. Not to mention that in Miller vs. USA the supremes said that a "militia has no use for a sawed-off shotgun" so are you going to give up those neat 14" shotguns in favor of an 18" one? Just a few questions.
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The DICK ACT created the NATIONAL GUARD as an authorized standing army! Perpich vs. DOD U.S. Supreme Court 1990 defines the people themselves as members of the militia referred to the United States Constitution! Nowhere do we find police, or law enforcement defined as such, not even a constitutional amendment! Wonder why?
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 12:25:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 1:08:39 PM EDT
The Dick Act did create the national guard as a "Reserve Force" and a civilian militia. Here is a way to prevent the LEO Agencies from becoming a standing army. Pass a law that states " No Law Enforcment Agency Whether National, State, or Local may use any arm, device, machine or item not readily available to the law-abiding citizenry"
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 1:34:54 PM EDT
Stg44, "If your loved ones are being held hostage, do you want someone who has trained, and has proper equipment, or barney fife ?" You mean like Lon Whoreiuchi ???? [x]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 2:39:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Butkus 51: Stg44, "If your loved ones are being held hostage, do you want someone who has trained, and has proper equipment, or barney fife ?" You mean like Lon Whoreiuchi ???? [x]
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Personally, I'd like a team made up of crack commandos like Butkis 51 and andresan (who could no doubt teach the high-speeds a thing or two). Surely they could do the job far better than HRT, D, DEVGRU, or anyone else with their wealth of experience. Geez. Some of you people need to think before you put down the same old sad little "comebacks". -[b]S[/b]earch[b]A[/b]nd[b]R[/b]escue[b]guy[/b]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 2:47:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 2:45:14 PM EDT by William J Clinton]
I helped create this un-authorized army to keep the children safe. They after all, are our most precious resource. I have to wonder why you guys are worried about the police, aren't you law abiding citizens? If you are then you should have no fear of the police, if you aren't (c'mon let's face you it aren't) then you might have an issue. [smoke] Edited for review by Congressional Grand Jury
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 2:50:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 3:34:47 PM EDT by andreusan]
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By Butkus 51: Stg44, "If your loved ones are being held hostage, do you want someone who has trained, and has proper equipment, or barney fife ?" You mean like Lon Whoreiuchi ???? [x]
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Personally, I'd like a team made up of crack commandos like Butkis 51 and andresan (who could no doubt teach the high-speeds a thing or two). Surely they could do the job far better than HRT, D, DEVGRU, or anyone else with their wealth of experience. Geez. Some of you people need to think before you put down the same old sad little "comebacks". -[b]S[/b]earch[b]A[/b]nd[b]R[/b]escue[b]guy[/b]
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Hang on to that thought, because you have not a clue as to what I know, or do not know in the areas that you so proudly profess to master! HRT, D, and DEVGRU specialize in murdering American babies, innocent men and women in churches, aided and abetted by LEO's, I am above and beyond that! Be assured, I will never, never ask quarters of scum like that, and surely none will be given! TYRANNOCTUNUS
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 3:01:50 PM EDT
Hey sarguy, my comment was only meant to show that even a highly trained operator can fuck up !!!! I may not be a "crack commando " as you put it, but I damn sure know the differance between a perp and a WOMAN HOLDING A BABY !!!!! You said would I want a well trained person or a clown, well obviously I would want a trained person, cuz as has been demonstrated, well trained operators sure do know how to shoot.... and it also wasnt meant as a "comeback" it just seems leo's dont like their dirty laundry aired. 51 out... P.S, as andro stated, you have no idea as to my abilities, so mocking them only shows your ignorance. btw, not intended as aleo flame [x]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 3:41:48 PM EDT
Hey, SARguy do not back down now!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 3:42:29 PM EDT
Andreusan, I didn't infer as to whether or not you have had your testicles drop. I really don't care one way or the other. I have been shot at by a rifle (SKS) I have seized 2 AR's that had been "modified" to fire FA, without benefit of a tax stamp. I do not have a FA issued to me. I have "militarized" my shift by convincing everyone that they needed to get a tactical carbine. I got everyone to purchase, just like I did, either an AR, or Mini 14. I then taught the class and ran the qualifing range. During this time, and on a regular re-occuring basis, I preach safe handling, legal options, and I also talk about the individuals right to carry and own firearms. I have never been on a raid where we hit anything except the correct house. I have never seized a firearm except legally. I kept the department from destroying firearms, we now auction them off to an FFL holder, and use the proceeds to purchase other firearms/equipment. I have volunteered my time to teach Eddie Eagle safety classes at local elementary schools. I have taught, again on my time and for free, firearm safety classes so citizens can obtain a CCW. I have worked part time in a gunshop, and have personally sold and helped steer people towards quality firearms instead of crap. You only spew contempt and hate. What have you done to make your city/state a better, safer place to live. Done anything to spread the RKBA message? You could be a poster child for HCI with your rantings. You have a right to do so, but it harms much more than helps us all, that is gun owners. As to Lon Horuichi, he should be tried for murder. I have no doubt that the spotter is who shot Randy Weaver, wounding him intentionally. I also have no doubt that Horuichi then took out Vicki intentionally. HRT trains and shoots too much for a miss like that to be anything but intentional. I cannot, and do not but condem unlawful actions by other LEO's. I will not stand, however and be compared to them. I, like most LEO's, am an honorable man. I do the best I can. I am not perfect, and am willing to admit to that. I try to learn from my mistakes, so that they do not happen again. I have been shot at, and hit before. I have used deadly force. What I was saying is, until you have walked in my shoes, don't judge me. I will be man enough to do the same for you.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 3:50:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stg44: Andreusan, I didn't infer as to whether or not you have had your testicles drop. I really don't care one way or the other. I have been shot at by a rifle (SKS) I have seized 2 AR's that had been "modified" to fire FA, without benefit of a tax stamp. I do not have a FA issued to me. I have "militarized" my shift by convincing everyone that they needed to get a tactical carbine. I got everyone to purchase, just like I did, either an AR, or Mini 14. I then taught the class and ran the qualifing range. During this time, and on a regular re-occuring basis, I preach safe handling, legal options, and I also talk about the individuals right to carry and own firearms. I have never been on a raid where we hit anything except the correct house. I have never seized a firearm except legally. I kept the department from destroying firearms, we now auction them off to an FFL holder, and use the proceeds to purchase other firearms/equipment. I have volunteered my time to teach Eddie Eagle safety classes at local elementary schools. I have taught, again on my time and for free, firearm safety classes so citizens can obtain a CCW. I have worked part time in a gunshop, and have personally sold and helped steer people towards quality firearms instead of crap. You only spew contempt and hate. What have you done to make your city/state a better, safer place to live. Done anything to spread the RKBA message? You could be a poster child for HCI with your rantings. You have a right to do so, but it harms much more than helps us all, that is gun owners. As to Lon Horuichi, he should be tried for murder. I have no doubt that the spotter is who shot Randy Weaver, wounding him intentionally. I also have no doubt that Horuichi then took out Vicki intentionally. HRT trains and shoots too much for a miss like that to be anything but intentional. I cannot, and do not but condem unlawful actions by other LEO's. I will not stand, however and be compared to them. I, like most LEO's, am an honorable man. I do the best I can. I am not perfect, and am willing to admit to that. I try to learn from my mistakes, so that they do not happen again. I have been shot at, and hit before. I have used deadly force. What I was saying is, until you have walked in my shoes, don't judge me. I will be man enough to do the same for you.
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Point well made, I will curtail my attacks upon all LEO's, and focus on only the bad when they rear their ugly heads! Good day then!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 4:14:55 PM EDT
STG appears to be an example that all LEO's should strive for. I like the idea of LEO's not having FAs. I comend you STG
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:17:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan: Hang on to that thought, because you have not a clue as to what I know, or do not know in the areas that you so proudly profess to master! HRT, D, and DEVGRU specialize in murdering American babies, innocent men and women in churches, aided and abetted by LEO's, I am above and beyond that! Be assured, I will never, never ask quarters of scum like that, and surely none will be given! TYRANNOCTUNUS
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Son, you really are sad. And, btw: I never back down when I'm right. I just don't have all day to sit and monitor my posts on the Internet as you apparently do. ---- Butkis 51 - No slam intended. My apologies if it came out that way. My bad. I totally agree that even pros can screw up. I've seen it too. I just think the whole Lon thing is getting old. -SARguy
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:37:47 PM EDT
no problem Sarguy, sometimes I just cant help myself [}:D]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:54:25 PM EDT
Call me lazy, I ONLY read .02 posts..I NEVER read longwinded stories....K.I.S.S..... Anywho...I DO think I DO NOT like the Police being or APPEARING to be a paramilitary organization, as they do here in Seattle. ALL of them covered in Swat Mall Ninja clothes, to ME DOES add to a 'US VS THEM' scenario from the word GO... Sorry, when I think of REGULAR police, I think of Jim Reed and Pete Malloy... NOT Deke and Street
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:05:21 PM EDT
Have any of you seen the video "When Cops Attack." I picked it up at Blockbuster a while back. I haven't seen it at all Blockbusters, so you may have to look around. People seem to think that all LEOs are like the ones in that video. Take the time to watch it and any sequels. They are all LAPD. No other LEO agency is portrayed. I wonder why. Perhaps it is because most LEOs are good people. Some bad apples seem to give the whole group a bad image. I have no problem giving the Police ARs, Glocks, etc. Since, I could buy any of those (once I'm 21.) In fact, almost anybody in the right state of course, can purchase a Full-Auto., 40mm Launcher, Short-Barrel Shotgun, or any of the other neat equipment Police use. Now look at the Police and the Military/Reserves. Police carry Semi-Automatic ARs (Not all PDs), Beretta or Glock Pistols, and some may carry single shot 40mm Grenade Launchers (For Tear Gas). Now, the Military uses 40mm MGs with incindeary rounds, Full-Auto. M-16s, Landmines, Hand Grenades, etc. When was the last time you saw a LEO toting an M249 and a half dozen hand grenades. As for the "Perps aren't that well armed" excuse, Miami Shootout, North Hollywood Shootout, nedd I say more. Each of these incidents only highlighted that even though Police will rarely need ARs, they should have them just in case. It can happen. I hate to say it, but as the system is now, obtaining ILLEGAL ARs, AKs, etc. is relatively easy. FA conversions take almost no brains and can be done by almost any street thug. Now if you just put 1 oz. Slugs in those 12 Gauges, the Police would have nothing to worry about. I say give the police any small arm (Handgun/Rifle) they need to do their jobs. I wouldn't mind seeing SWAT teams carrying an M-60 if it would help waste the perps. I see no problem with beat officers carrying semi-autos. which any law-abiding citizen (Not in PRK, PRNY, PRNJ, etc.) can obtain. I can with $600 buy an AR-15. These are the same rifles the police use. Though theirs are probably more like the $1K+ Variety. SWAT Teams are the elite hostage rescue, etc. They need automatic weapons just like military do.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:27:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:34:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 7:33:14 PM EDT by Sweep]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:39:26 PM EDT
STG44, If I could just add my .02 Cents here for a moment. As a disinterested party reading this thread, It's pretty obvious that you are one of the good guys. The guys who are showing contempt for LEO's are just reacting to the frustration they feel at seeing their Freedom disappear a little at a time. We all believe in Freedom, right? And yet every single aspect of our lives is taxed, regulated, controlled or criminalized So as not to take personal the criticism, try to put yourself in the average, non LEO's shoes. We have so many laws, that are so complicated, a good citizen can become a criminal despite all the best intentions. When we face speed traps and DWI/Drug Checkpoints everyday, just driving to work,it's no wonder that citizens feel that they live under an occupying force. One slip up, like a DWI, or domestic argument can practically ruin ones life. We (the USA) jail more of our citizens than any other country in the free world. Those Felons will never outrun their convictions. Their lives will be forever tarnished. Good for them right? They get what they deserve. I agree, until Me or my family end getting ensnared into the system. But then it's too late to complain. The reason that you feel animosity from some members, is simply because you represent a system that many believe is too powerful and unjust. Although unfair, your uniform makes you a symbol of all those LEO's who abuse their authority. I have always stayed on the right side of the law. And yes, like many others, I risk my life for others everyday. Yet, I'm always a little paranoid that some Fed, State, or local agency is going to decide that they should "help me". (It keeps me on the straight and narrow, but that's what my Wife is for) The greatest shame of our generation is the Us vs. them mentality, between We The People, and those who have sworn to protect and serve. We are all on the same side. In truth, LEOs are ordinary citizen, although nobody seems to view them as such anymore. Unfortunately. I can see know way to mend this rift, besides abolishing about 65% of all laws. And that of course will never happen! How many new laws have been put on the books in your lifetime? How many repealed? Where does it end? BTW, I respect your job, your integrity and the work you do with the NRA. Just my humble opinion. Thoughts or ideas anybody?
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 5:51:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ADTECHARMS: First off the leo's in this country became a standing army when they started to have more in common with delta,seal,para-rescue,recon then the average law-abiding citizen. I have no objection to arming police effectivly as long as law-abiding citizens have the same options. Although I do not agree with the NFA I understand it and have no problem registering NFA items as long as they are still available to law-abiding citizens if they are available to LEO. As for the militia argument acording to the Dick Act (unsure of year) Militia's consist of all able bodied males age 18-65 with elected officers. NO AR do you want Police departments to have elected Officer's if you are saying they are militia's? Not to mention they are to have no government support, no money, no nothing. Not to mention that in Miller vs. USA the supremes said that a "militia has no use for a sawed-off shotgun" so are you going to give up those neat 14" shotguns in favor of an 18" one? Just a few questions.
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Aren't Sheriff's elected?? I don't hink militias "elected people, Col. Washington learned to fight in the militia. I don't belive it was an elected position. I don't have any NFA, SBR, Surpressed weapons, so I won't miss not having stuff I don't already have. On the RKBA, I believe in it but I also think that restrictions on full auto aren't all bad, although I wish they would still allow new ones to be made. I also think that felons shouldn't be allowed to have guns.
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 7:14:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2001 7:16:22 AM EDT by andreusan]
Aren't Sheriff's elected?? I don't hink militias "elected people, Col. Washington learned to fight in the militia. I don't belive it was an elected position. I don't have any NFA, SBR, Surpressed weapons, so I won't miss not having stuff I don't already have. On the RKBA, I believe in it but I also think that restrictions on full auto aren't all bad, although I wish they would still allow new ones to be made. I also think that felons shouldn't be allowed to have guns.
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Sheriffs are elected throught federal standards, and are supposed to be the Chief LEO in the county, over all others, be it state or federal! The case that involved Sheriff Mach proved that the sheriffs position is no longer constitutional, in the sense that other authorities have control over them ecven though they are elected!~ So the question is how could an agency created by statute only, with no constitutional standing be in control of the Sheriff, as is the case in America now? Next, historically the commander or officer of the militia was elected by those who served under him, as in Brevet, look at General Custer's tomb stone see the word BREVET, meaning honorary! Another option was the local towns people through some elected official gave commissions, then there was the field commission! Full auto restrictions, are unconstitutional, but try to get it to court! (Perpich vs. DOD U.S. Supreme Court 1990) defines the milita as the people themselves, then the federal courts have ruled that militia weapons, are weapons commonally used by the military, so it is the people themselves that need to armed the same as the military, not law enforcement, but these days it is all backwards with LEO being exempt where only militia would be! Remember the police did not come onto the American scene until long after America was formed, and they have no constitutional standing whatsoever! Exemption Example: Florida FS 790.25 exempts militia members from open carry-unlawful, and concealed carry permit required statutes. Then read the sentence included in all bills that are introduced relating to firearms, again militia exempt, it does not say LEO's it says militia! In short, if the military has it, and the LEO's have, then why are the people themselves who are the militia not allowed these arms? TYRANNY IS WHY! Let's look at the federalist papers, it is clear that the founding fathers intended the people themselves (who are the militia) to be armed at all times! Question: If a felon has paid their debt to society by serving a prison sentence, then how come their punishment extends to their right to keep and bear arms, after their debt is paid? Is this a violation of their constitutional rights? Why can't a convicted felon, who has paid their debt to society, bear arms in self defense, or defense of their country? All presented as food for thought! TYRANNOCTUNUS
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 7:58:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stg44: ...I will not stand, however and be compared to them. I, like most (LEO's), am an honorable man. I do the best I can. I am not perfect, and am willing to admit to that. I try to learn from my mistakes, so that they do not happen again. ...until you have walked in my shoes, don't judge me. I will be man enough to do the same for you.
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Well said.
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 8:16:54 AM EDT
I being a gun owner feel that if we have stricter gun laws and more extensive back ground checks we as law abiding citizens should have no problem with a few regulations to help prevent criminals to get guns. We need harsher punishment for criminals they in my personal belief have forfeited their rights as citizens of this nation. I know everyone makes mistakes but lets face it some of these people never learn because to many of their rights are protected. Come on they get three squares a day, free education, it sounds like a damn holiday to me.
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 9:49:02 AM EDT
Andreusa-you are a bit off on what Brevet rank means. George Armstrong Custer was promoted to the temporary or Brevet rank of Major General during the war of Northern Aggression. There are permant ranks, acting ranks, temporary ranks. Brevet rank was widely used during the Civil War. Custer went from a new, 2d lt. to Major Gen. in a very short time. When the war ended, he initally went to the permant Regular Army rank of Captian. When the 7th Cavalry Regiment was formed in 1866, he was promoted to Lt. Col. as the regiments executive officer. The regemental Col. was a figurehead, usually away, so Custer was the de-facto regemental commander. (I am a former 1/7 Cav vet) As to the Sheriff being an elected constutional authority, here in Florida the sheriff is elected every 4 years. This position is mandated in the Florida Constitution. He/She is the supreme law enforcement officer of that county. In Florida, the only one who can arrest a Sheriff is the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in his/her own county. And this is at the direct instruction of the Governor. A Sheriff can also be removed from office by the governor based on indictments or arrest. A deputy sheriff derives his/her power from the Sheriff by being sworn in at the beginning of each term. The Sheriff has a number of functions that are exclusive. Such as, serving Writs, warrants (a police officer cannot serve a warrant-they may make an arrest, but the warrant has to be served by a deputy)serve civil process, and normally run the county jail. As the represenative of an elected official, I have noted that deputy sheriff's tend to be more responsive to the people than city police or troopers. (a generalization, not always true, but it is in my experience the norm) I am not mad at any member of this board. It is still, at this moment a pretty free country. You have a right to your opinions, I have a right to mine. I do have the right to be outraged when I am thrown into the same mix as Lon Horuchi, and other rogue LEO's. You have the right to dislike LEO's as a group. But, in the same token, don't get upset when the press label us all ("assault" rifle owners) as crazed individuals after one of us (gun owners) goes off and shoots up a _______(fill in the blank) That feeling of frustration at being labled as a group that you know as a majority are good, honest, moral citizens, is the same as labeling all LEO's as lazy, corrupt, ingorant, people who have nothing better to do than trample on your rights. When was the last time you saw an LEO member of this board talking trash about non-leo owners of AR's? We are not bashing you, and I have plenty of stupid non-leo type stories I could tell. I think most of the LEO's on this board would agree, all we ask is to be judged as individuals. Not to be smeared when a few of the more than 500,000 LEO's screw the pooch. Enough said.
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 10:54:49 AM EDT
Why do people insist on linking incarceration length with gun ownership suspension via paying your debt to society? They are not the same. A felon pays his debt to society by paying a fine and/or serving time in prison as a punishment for his crime. Once that time in incarceration is up, it does not mean all rights have been restored. Only the right to move freely within society. Once you become a felon you lose your valuable right to keep and bear arms FOR LIFE, save a pardon. That's the price to be borne for being a felon (violent or otherwise) and a deserved one IMHO. The right to keep and bear arms is one you are born with, but by exhibiting felonious behavior, one can and should be exorcised of that right, because you have demonstrated the inability to act in a free society responsibly. Because your felonious activity is non-violent (say Embezzling) means we should trust you with firearms? "Well he can't be trusted to not rob the company blind but hey, he can be trusted with firearms......NOT! The threat of losing your God given rights should be a deterrent from committing felonious acts. If it isn't, than you obviously don't cherish those rights and aren't giving them the respect they're due. MG
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 11:00:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2001 11:18:19 AM EDT by andreusan]
Originally Posted By Stg44: Andreusa-you are a bit off on what Brevet rank means. George Armstrong Custer was promoted to the temporary or Brevet rank of Major General during the war of Northern Aggression. There are permant ranks, acting ranks, temporary ranks. Brevet rank was widely used during the Civil War. Custer went from a new, 2d lt. to Major Gen. in a very short time. When the war ended, he initally went to the permant Regular Army rank of Captian. When the 7th Cavalry Regiment was formed in 1866, he was promoted to Lt. Col. as the regiments executive officer. The regemental Col. was a figurehead, usually away, so Custer was the de-facto regemental commander. (I am a former 1/7 Cav vet)
ANDREUSAN:I stand corrected on the Brevet statement.
As to the Sheriff being an elected constutional authority, here in Florida the sheriff is elected every 4 years. This position is mandated in the Florida Constitution. He/She is the supreme law enforcement officer of that county. In Florida, the only one who can arrest a Sheriff is the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in his/her own county. And this is at the direct instruction of the Governor. A Sheriff can also be removed from office by the governor based on indictments or arrest. A deputy sheriff derives his/her power from the Sheriff by being sworn in at the beginning of each term. The Sheriff has a number of functions that are exclusive. Such as, serving Writs, warrants (a police officer cannot serve a warrant-they may make an arrest, but the warrant has to be served by a deputy)serve civil process, and normally run the county jail. As the represenative of an elected official, I have noted that deputy sheriff's tend to be more responsive to the people than city police or troopers. (a generalization, not always true, but it is in my experience the norm)
ANDREUSAN: I have a problem with the FDLE having authority to arrest the sheriff, and controlling the Sheriff under ESF-16 as they are created by statute, and not by constitutional convention of the people. IMHO
I am not mad at any member of this board. It is still, at this moment a pretty free country. You have a right to your opinions, I have a right to mine. I do have the right to be outraged when I am thrown into the same mix as Lon Horuchi, and other rogue LEO's. You have the right to dislike LEO's as a group. But, in the same token, don't get upset when the press label us all ("assault" rifle owners) as crazed individuals after one of us (gun owners) goes off and shoots up a _______(fill in the blank) That feeling of frustration at being labled as a group that you know as a majority are good, honest, moral citizens, is the same as labeling all LEO's as lazy, corrupt, ingorant, people who have nothing better to do than trample on your rights. When was the last time you saw an LEO member of this board talking trash about non-leo owners of AR's? We are not bashing you, and I have plenty of stupid non-leo type stories I could tell. I think most of the LEO's on this board would agree, all we ask is to be judged as individuals. Not to be smeared when a few of the more than 500,000 LEO's screw the pooch. Enough said.
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ANDREUSAN: As I stated yesterday, I will lay off the generalizations of LEO's, because you sound sincere, and honest, even though I have never met you in person, maybe someday!
Link Posted: 7/12/2001 11:00:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2001 11:19:43 AM EDT by andreusan]
Woops, I screwed up guys, sorry!
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 5:30:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan: Question: If a felon has paid their debt to society by serving a prison sentence, then how come their punishment extends to their right to keep and bear arms, after their debt is paid? Is this a violation of their constitutional rights? Why can't a convicted felon, who has paid their debt to society, bear arms in self defense, or defense of their country? All presented as food for thought! TYRANNOCTUNUS
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Because someone that has committed MURDER, RAPE, OR BEAT SOMEONE UNTIL THEY ARE IN A VEGATAIVE STATE [red] NEVER [/red] "pays" their debt.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 6:10:03 AM EDT
adreusan was selected to try out for Delta, too. ...but when the told him he'd have to shave off his mullet he said, "no way, man!"[:E]. clown
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 6:10:18 AM EDT
Hire good LEO's, not thugs with badges, and give them anything needed and the training to go with it !! I never want to see my LEO's out-gunned by the bad-guys/gals. (Equal-opportunity-scum.) Please, please let us not confuse the hard-working LEO's with their Chiefs - mostly just politicians in uniform. Now as to the "IBF" or the "FTAB" plainly their skill-level is at the "PINK" water-pistol level and they should be so armed.
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 10:30:15 AM EDT
I was kind of thinking about non-violent felons, but NO-AR you are 100% CORRECT! MG
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 11:23:48 AM EDT
Question to active and or retired LEO's: I'd like to know if you can tell me about any shoot outs you have been in that lasted for more than a few seconds. Any involving automatic weapons Any involving "Assault Weapons" Any perps you have busted that were part of a well trained, armed and motivated terrorist force.(please define trained, armed and motivated) Any situation you have been called into that realy required scary ninja tactical shit. p.s. sarguy need not answer, probably won't anyway due to some secret admin mission behind enemey desks
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 12:46:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NO-AR-:(:
Originally Posted By andreusan: Question: If a felon has paid their debt to society by serving a prison sentence, then how come their punishment extends to their right to keep and bear arms, after their debt is paid? Is this a violation of their constitutional rights? Why can't a convicted felon, who has paid their debt to society, bear arms in self defense, or defense of their country? All presented as food for thought! TYRANNOCTUNUS
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Because someone that has committed MURDER, RAPE, OR BEAT SOMEONE UNTIL THEY ARE IN A VEGATAIVE STATE [red] NEVER [/red] "pays" their debt.
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Your feelings are part of what is wrong with America these days! WHY? Because the law says that when the state releases the types, you described, and they finish their probation if any without any more criminal acts, they have paid their debt! After all, is not the law, the law? Then, these days there are more no-violent felons in prisons, think maybe violent ones are released with the state knowing that many of them will come right back to prison, increasing the crime stats, to justify more loss of freedoms to non-criminals? I SAY YES!
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 1:49:17 PM EDT
One thingI have learned from studying the Constitution, Federalist Papers, and some biographies of the Founding Fathers is they knew the differencebetween a criminal and a citizen. You are born a citizen, with certain rights that the government has no power to infringe. However, once you break society's laws, you lose your status as a citizen, and become a criminal. The severity of the crime determines your incarceration time, if any, but only the state or federal government can return you to full citizen status again. So yes, if you comit a felony, who can lose your RKBA forever. No one forced you to do whatever you did. DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/13/2001 4:34:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: adreusan was selected to try out for Delta, too. ...but when the told him he'd have to shave off his mullet he said, "no way, man!"[:E]. clown
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Well, I say we help him get back in. He can go here and sign up for Delta... [url]www.delta.com[/url]
Link Posted: 7/14/2001 1:51:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: adreusan was selected to try out for Delta, too. ...but when the told him he'd have to shave off his mullet he said, "no way, man!"[:E]. clown
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Well, I say we help him get back in. He can go here and sign up for Delta... [url]www.delta.com[/url]
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Ok smart ass, name one mission known to the public that "DELTA" was successful at!
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