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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 7/6/2001 5:50:19 AM EDT
in the Emerson Case the court decides the right to keep and bear arms is collective, and not and individual right? When should Americans draw the line in the sand, and stand with arms in hand put down the tyranny? Serious thought should be given to this as it may happen, are you prepared just in case? PS: As for certain persons on this site who always demonize me for asking such questions, or for my constitutional point of view, all should consider this, "why they demonize me, and are they the types of individuals you may have to confront as the enemy?". Would you want these people who demonize Americans who embrace the constitution, in control of this nation?
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 5:52:00 AM EDT
My line in the sand will be when they come down the street for mass confiscation. Until then, I believe there is still hope through legal means.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 5:58:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lordtrader: My line in the sand will be when they come down the street for mass confiscation. Until then, I believe there is still hope through legal means.
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i agree 100%. but what worries me is that the grabbers will do so secretly and individually, allowing the media to demonize those who will resist, and forcing each one of us to fight alone - there might not be the UNITY among us that there was at lexington/concord. how many times have we watched as another brother in arms gets hauled off to jail because of an unconstitutional law, only to shake our heads in sadness, but never REALLY doing anything about it? we will all go down alone, i'm afraid, without a real chance to stand shoulder to shoulder against tyranny.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 6:25:51 AM EDT
In addition to fighting confiscations, I think I'd go if Slave Reparations were mandated. I am not racist - in fact I'd fight against any extremist that would infringe on the rights of anyone...but this reparations thing has me outraged.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 8:57:36 AM EDT
The problem with waiting until they come down your street is as stated above. They will do it secretly. When they do show it will be with three or more trained fire teams. Exactly how many do you think you'll stop? Do you live in a bullet proof home? Do you have a family? What about them? Are you willing to put them in harms way while you commit suicide? If that's all the further you've thought this through it would be better to turn your guns in with the exception of one, put that on to your head and pull the trigger. It will take slightly less time, save your family, and keep you from being a statistic for the media to use against the rest of us. The word United in United states is there for a reason. The ATF, the FBI, and whatever other alphabet org you want to include work as a united unit. Those who think they can save themselves or their rights as an individual, have already lost. Thats my .02
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 9:27:06 AM EDT
This thread begs the question: At what point, or what time, or what event, do we drop what we are doing and, like the early American Minutemen, charge to the defense of a beleaguered colleague? What the next American Revolution will require is for Joe Average, and his wife, to take up arms and physically go to the assistance of someone who is "under siege" from the Government over the issue of individual firearm ownership. Until then it's just,"Look Baby, they just arrested another one of them gun nut wackos on the news".
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 9:29:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 9:33:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FatMan: This thread begs the question: At what point, or what time, or what event, do we drop what we are doing and, like the early American Minutemen, charge to the defense of a beleaguered colleague? What the next American Revolution will require is for Joe Average, and his wife, to take up arms and physically go to the assistance of someone who is "under siege" from the Government over the issue of individual firearm ownership. Until then it's just,"Look Baby, they just arrested another one of them gun nut wackos on the news".
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Your words are straight to the point, and warrant the consideration of all Americans, who wish to remain free!
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 9:57:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2001 10:29:04 AM EDT by Imbroglio]
There will be no mass resistance. People will excitely (much like those did who complied with the kalifornia "assault weapon" registration) turn their guns into the first wave of gun buybacks and tell of what great things they will purchase with their money. Downpayments on cars, new t.v.'s and home entertainment systems will be the rage replacing pistols, rifles and shotguns on everyones to-buy lists. Sure there will be some who refuse with force. They will be ridiculed (in the same manner the registrants in kalifornia chastised non-registarnts) by the new owners of recently bought luxury items. "Those rebels got what they deserved. At least I won't be looking over my shoulder and not have to worry when I go to the home electronics store because I don't own banned guns anymore." The days of Americans putting principle over personal gain has been long over. It is all about "the lesser of 2 evils".
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 10:10:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: Hell man, pass the ammo! The fight started in '68 (some will say earlier) it's just been a cold war these years. Get trained/educated and supplied now.
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i think it was 34 damn nfa firt federal gun law that restricted stuff
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 10:20:43 AM EDT
I'm waiting for the 5th Circuit. And waiting, and waiting.... If the 5th overturns Emerson, it won't go to the Supremes - I think they'll just dodge it. If the 5th upholds Emerson, I don't know what the Supreme's will do. They could dodge it, hoping that no other court will use Emerson as a precedent (very likely, in fact). If the 5th overturns and/or the Supremes hear Emerson and find for the "collective right" argument, then that is the signal to me that we no longer live even under the illusion that our government is a Constitutional Republic. Do I load up and go to war? Shoulder-to-shoulder with whom? Against what? Those of us who really care about the system of government we're supposed to be living under make up a tiny, irritating minority compared to the rest of the population. They don't know, they don't care, and they don't care to know. As long as Uncle Sugar makes sure they get their bread-and-circuses, they're content. Or at least not hostile. Back when the world was a much bigger place if you couldn't live under the system where you resided, you packed up and headed for the Frontier. Well, there is no new Frontier. This is all we have. I'm not sure I want to die attempting to make ignorant, uncaring idiots free. Because sure as hell, without support from a majority (which we are decidedly unlikely to get) dying in vain is all we will do if we try for revolution. I think I'll just remain a good little consumer, and continue on with my life until they come to collect mine. Then I might become another "crazed wacko" statistic - but I'll make those who out there doing the collecting think twice about their choice of employment. Then again, John Ross has an interesting idea in [u]Unintended Consequences[/u].... but I'm not comfortable with the idea of making the U.S. into an overgrown version of Kosovo.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 11:24:29 AM EDT
It should have happened a long time ago. We don't need a majority to win this thing. We need several hundred thousand willing to do whatever it takes. If it means shutting down the whole place for a few years, then so be it. In order for it to get better, it will have to get much worse. Either we can wait until we are backed into a corner even more than we are now and then fight and lose, or we can fight sooner and perhaps win. Either way, lots of damage, lots of pain. The time to fight is not when you weigh 98 pounds and are half-alive, the time to fight is when you are strong and healthy and have the ability to shut the entire place down. Shut down allt he roads, all commerce, all transport etc.etc. and we shall see how fast the soccer-moms and dads capitulate. It would not be long.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 11:30:26 AM EDT
Yeah, just like the people at Waco and Ruby Ridge Made there aggressors think twice about there career choices.And look at the cost. If you have no more commitment to freedom then you display now then you certainly won't have it when the time comes. The founders of this country were not worried about how they're "no supportive" peers viewed them. They were interested in freedom and and basic rights for all people. Not just there supporters. Nobody said this is an easy issue or will it be an easy fight. And for that matter most people who beat their chest and say "Kill them all and let God sort them out" will quickly fade in the face of adversity. However to delude yourself into thinking you will stop them at your door is folly. Commit to a cause in a manner that will make a difference, or let those who are willing to do so, do it in a way they see fit. Either we come together as a unit and stand our ground,or we all loose as individuals.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 11:41:55 AM EDT
I kind of see it like the Jews being led to the concentration camps. The Nazis nibbled away at first, by the time the Jews figured it out, it was too late. By the time anybody takes up arms, most will have turned in their guns. The few that resist will go out in a blaze of glory, but the end result will be the same. When the Second is ruled as a collective right, I will have no choice but to obey the laws and turn them in. Like it or not, the Supreme Court has the power to interpret the Constitution. What they decide is the law of the land, and I must as a law abiding citizen obey. Yes, I know that they are my God given rights that exist regardless of their being listed in the Bill of Rights, yada yada yada... One of the things that separates me from the criminal element is that I follow the laws (reluctantly sometimes), even though I disagree with many of them. Yes, this may mean a trip to the re-education camp for me, or life as a serf under a socialist regime. However, the alternative is for me to "Do as thou will and let that be the whole of the law."
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 11:49:38 AM EDT
Ok. Where are the leaders who are setting the example? Not just the "talkers". All it takes is one rock to move, and the landslide starts... So, how about one of you guys standing up(!) and starting something that will show that you are more than all talk? I keep seeing posts about how all of us should stand up and "resist" by a show of force, or by a force of arms...but I have never heard of it happening, nor have I heard anything but talk. For over 30 years I have been listening...and so far, I have not seen one even small action taken to right all of the wrongs and injustices that are always Hot Topics on this and other boards. So, stand up and lead. Stop talking, and LEAD!! (or go to the local Junior College in your area and take a course in Underwater Basket Weaving)
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 11:51:35 AM EDT
Are you saying that our fore fathers were criminals. And if that is the case to avoid being part of a criminal element, should'nt we return this country to the control of England?
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 11:54:05 AM EDT
OK - Let's all go to Klamath Falls and make a stand.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 12:03:58 PM EDT
contras21 Lead who? Most people don't even know what side of the fence they want to be on. Perhaps you didn't know notice that while you were taking your underwater basket weaving course. As this thread has brought up a lot of people prefer to commit suicide at their own door steps when the Feds show up. Are these the people that you want someone to lead? Its a matter of choice to each individual to decide if they really want freedom no matter what the cost, or to live in (and including their children and grand children)a cage. However since you are so adamant on a leader for these undecided people I nominate You. Do I hear a second.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 12:07:19 PM EDT
mejames.....say Baaaa! Baaaa! As the sheep are lead to the slaughter. I think you have already bought the tickets for you and your family on the box car to Auschwitz. None of our forefathers would have chosen the brutal war of revolution had there been a choice. However, if there is nothing worth dying for then there is nothing worth living for. I remember a phrase from the gentleman from Louisa County, Va. "Give me liberty or give me death!" You really want to live in a country like Red China. When it really gets bad, the honorable will do what is right. The apathetic, propagandized idiots can follow or get out of the way. The freedom loving will lead.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 12:09:12 PM EDT
[b]When it really gets bad, the honorable will do what is right. The apathetic, propagandized idiots can follow or get out of the way. The freedom loving will lead.[/b] HEAR HEAR!!!
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 12:09:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: Hell man, pass the ammo! The fight started in '68 (some will say earlier) it's just been a cold war these years. Get trained/educated and supplied now.
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When the time comes, I will fight. However, to those that have never been in combat, don't be so damn eager for us to have a war. It is not something you want to do unless you absolutely have to or are ordered to do when you are in the military.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 12:09:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2001 12:12:53 PM EDT by contras21]
Originally Posted By TreetopFlyer: contras21 Lead who? Most people don't even know what side of the fence they want to be on. Perhaps you didn't know notice that while you were taking your underwater basket weaving course. As this thread has brought up a lot of people prefer to commit suicide at their own door steps when the Feds show up. Are these the people that you want someone to lead? Its a matter of choice to each individual to decide if they really want freedom no matter what the cost, or to live in (and including their children and grand children)a cage. However since you are so adamant on a leader for these undecided people I nominate You. Do I hear a second.
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Very nice reply...even though a bit acid. But I do see where you are coming from, and I applaud your remarks. And, nope...No Underwater Classes for me. Except for Openwater Certification. When the leaders are needed, they will be there. The Talkers will, after-the-fact, try to be the new rule makers...You know, the ones that like to try and limit our freedoms without any of theirs being impacted. That way it limits the number of opponents for Round Two.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 12:33:17 PM EDT
When America revolted against England it has been estimated that 1/3 of the population was in favor, 1/3 was opposed, and 1/3 didn't care. There was a definite "us vs. them" mentality - and "Them" was easy to point to. Not here. We don't enjoy even 1/3 support, and should shooting break out, you can bet your posterior that what support we do have would dwindle rapidly. Get it through your heads [i][red]we're doing this to [b]ourselves[/b][/i][/red]. There is no monarch throwing edicts at us. The jerks who are passing these laws are [i]elected[/i] jerks. The majority of the population is [i]completely ignorant[/i] of the ideals under which this nation was founded [b]and couldn't care less[/b]. So go ahead, drag out the hardware and start shooting. And fulfil the desires of the Statists as the majority of the population runs to them screaming "Save us! Save us! Declare Martial Law and strip us of the rest of our rights so we may be safe!" You want to fix the problem? It took us a minimum of 50 years to get here - 50 years in which each successive generation learned less and less about our government, about our history, and about world history. Fifty years to where now ignorance is common, and everyone expects daddy government to take care of all. Revolution won't fix that, it'll just make the idiots more frightened. Here's that quotation again:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority [i]always[/i]votes for the candidate promising the most from the public treasury with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith, from faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to dependency, from dependency back again into bondage.
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Link Posted: 7/6/2001 12:39:29 PM EDT
(Christ! I had just logged out!!) KBaker Bravo!!! Well Said!! (I had to log back on so I could say that!)
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 1:07:22 PM EDT
I am not the leader type. I would not want a war. I like coming home and feeling somewhat safe from danger. I would hate to be on the run for several years and then come back to a home that is ransacked and where my family is in danger. If I would even make it out alive. I will wait for the NRA or the GOA to say that it is time. The reason is because if it can be handled peacfully and through diplomatic ways then I will feel alot better. How many of you would say once a war started that you would have paid anything to not be in that situation. So support these organizations and make them strong through money. Money talks in politics, in my opinion. That is the only way to be heard.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 1:10:32 PM EDT
I will fight! I am fighting now by corresponding with my elected officials, participating in these discussions. When will it come? It has already. The following is a post I wrote on July 4th @1911.com. As you read it also read the text of the DoI and Constitution. You will see that indeed this is a cold war that has but one end. "This morning I was surfing the web and began to read the text of the DoI and the Constitution. A few thoughts I ponder here. It struck me that some argue that the RKBA does not apply to the individual. The error in this argument can be found in every aspect of the DoI and the Constitution, aside from the 2nd ammendment. Let me elaborate. The DoI addresses, among other issues, the grievences that the colonial people had with the crown. They specifically state that in one section they are forced to house the standing army of Great Britain among the general population. On that point alone, I ask. How is a population to remove a standing army of the gov't? They must be provided with resources to do so aside from enacted laws, which in the case of the colonies were moot as the crown claimed total and complete rule. What are these resources? And with an army that was loyal to the crown how would any law enacted by the colonies be enforced?
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 1:11:36 PM EDT
Now, I'm no expert on constitutional law but with the above example it only seems logical that the general population would need to take up arms. And, it is stated in the DoI that the colonists have many times applied for redress to the crown and were ignored. At this time there was no central gov't armory. There was no organized army as we imagine today. The ranks of the revolution were filled with citizen soldiers who were farmers, blacksmiths, printers, etc. They were an army of the people and armed themselves as such. Not by a central authority. Now consider the argument that the 2nd ammendment applies to the powers of state and gov't. not the individual. There are arguments pertaining to the exact meanings of the very words. For instance, militia. What is a militia? Well, the army isn't a militia as it is an entity of the Fed. gov't and the national guard isn't because it too is administered by the same. The police? They are citizens given power to enforce the laws by their peers. So who is the militia? The militia is you and I, our brothers, fathers, and uncles. The people who will gather their arms to defend the security of a free State against tyrrany and oppression.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 1:12:22 PM EDT
Now there is also much controversy of the terms "State" and "People" as they apply to the text of the 2nd ammendement. "...the security of a free State,..." "...the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." I have read the whole text of the DoI and the Constitution several times. I do agree that some of the colonial language is difficult to understand but one thing that is certain, the framers never, not once, in either document, misconstrue the meanings of which term allpies to the people or the state. In the 1st ammd. the right of the PEOPLE to peacable assemble is guaranteed. To apply the logic that the framers meant that these two terms were interchangable would make the 1st seem ludicrous! I have found no place where the framers used the term state to apply to the people and vice versa. It is vital to the basic integrity of the text that these distictions be made for the crown had royaly and subjects! Now we all know that certain Senators from a certain state, that is practicing it's own form of socialism and has passed enough unconstitutional laws that the framers themselves would probably declair war upon it if they were here today, have taken the liberty to decide that because there is no provision prohibiting the "regulation" of arms in the constitution, it is therefore legal to pass federal legislation of the same. The constitution states in the Bill of Rights, that rights not enumerated, that pertain to, but are not in print are to be left to the power of the states. Given this, the very fact that there are any Federal laws pertaining to the "regulation of "arms" is unconstitutional! The text is plain and to the point. On this alone, all gun laws, as Clarence Thomas, has said are unconstitutional. Reasonable gun control is a friendly term used to replace the real meaning, forfieture of inalienable rights! Remember the RKBA is in inborn. It is not like a driving license which is a privelege. It is a right we are born with that cannot be removed, period! To do so is illegal and unconstitutional! On this day we need to remember what our ancestors accomplished. To argue that after fighting a terrible war and having suffered at the hands of tyrrany, the framers decided that only the gov't would be given the right to keep and bear arms is a delusional ideal. We were founded on freedom and the crack of the rifle was our rallying cry. And, as remote as the possibility seems, we are creeping steadily towards what we fought to be free from. Without arms our posterity will suffer as our ancestors did. We bear the repsonsibilty, as someone once said, for millions not yet born."
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 1:17:43 PM EDT
Point well taken. I do not support dragging out the hardware. The point is though, there are a lot of things that can still happen if we join together as a team. I am not concerned about the chest beaters, they will weed themselves out. Its always glorious to talk about "taking them out" it quite another thing when the bullets are coming your way. But as a group of people we still have some degree of influence. On another thread there are some 1900+ signatures ready to be forwarded to the government. While I have not looked at it close enough to know if I support their message, it is an example of what we can do with virtually no effort. The Million Mom march only had a few dozen participants. What do you WANT? Are your freedoms worth doing something about? Did you write a letter this week... how about next week. Sure we can talk about the fate of the country in a fatalistic tone, and decide to succumb to the PC crowd when the time comes. But I belive if thats your way out, you should do it now. Sell your toys to someone who may someday stand in the gate to defend your freedom. I hope a conflict never happens, but to even engage in such conversation without at least acknowledging such an eventuality is short sided. If you don't want to stand up for your rights thats your business. Support the rest of the freedom loving people by writing letters, calling the gov. Helping educate people who only know what CNN tells them. Nobody will be ashamed of you IF the time to bow comes. They will respect you for doing the part that you could for freedom. Trying to bring shame to others for their commitment to freedom does nothing to help any of us. The Antis are watching us. They are brave because we are unorganized. But they are spineless when it come to dealing with an organized opponent. Let your voice be heard in favor of freedom, not in favor of the opposition.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 1:34:23 PM EDT
TreetopFlyer, don't misunderstand - I am as staunch a supporter of my rights as any. Yes, I write to my congresscritters, to my local propaganda outlets, and others. I contribute to the organizations that work for my rights, and I try to let those organizations working against them know that they have lost my $$ and my respect. I am doing everything I can (while earning a living) short of dragging out the hardware. But I don't underestimate the power of human stupidity. No one has ever gone broke betting that people as a group are stupid. In case you hadn't noticed, politicians are the big winner in that casino. (For that matter, so are evangelists.) But to think that we as a group can somehow duplicate the American Revolution just because we're armed demonstrates that there are members among us who don't have a real firm grasp on reality either. The Founding Fathers didn't do it with just a few flintlocks and steely determination. What would it take? I think a national disaster from an outside source - either natural or in the form of a war upon us. Seeing as we're the biggest bully on the block, the latter is not likely. Short of invasion by little green men, or the Asian Hordes boiling forth from COSCO shipping containers across the nation, I think the "land of the free and the home of the brave" is going to cease to exist with a whimper, not a bang. As Robert Heinlein wrote: "The worst part about living in the declining era of a great civilization, is realizing that you are."
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:00:28 PM EDT
KBaker I understand what you are saying because that too is one of the possible eventualities. You are obviously NOT stupid to the way things are. I just believe that success comes to those who refuse to accept defeat. Some of my greatest successes in life came after it looked as though all my options were used up. Why? I refused to give up. I was once told that if I wanted to jump over a barn, I needed to shoot for the moon, Because if I only shot for the barn I could likely end up in the smelly pile in front of it. Even if we have that bad feeling deep down inside we owe it to the stupid people to put the best face forward. There are no "good" commanders who ever told the troops,"Well guys no matter what, we're gonna get are butts kicked, so be sure to write the family." The one saving grace to stupid people they will always follow instead of think for themselves. It is possible to use that for our own advantage. Even politicians need to be elected, and if they think for even a moment that we are a threat to their security they will flip flop very quickly. If we sing the song of doom the stupid people will however follow that too. By the way R. Heinlein is right
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:14:20 PM EDT
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." -- Benjamin Franklin "[B]A general dissolution of principles[/B] and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. " -- Samuel Adams
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:17:04 PM EDT
What would it take? I think a national disaster from an outside source - either natural or in the form of a war upon us. Seeing as we're the biggest bully on the block, the latter is not likely. Short of invasion by little green men, or the Asian Hordes boiling forth from COSCO shipping containers across the nation, I think the "land of the free and the home of the brave" is going to cease to exist with a whimper, not a bang.
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Indeed. If an internal struggle occured with external opponents, the sheep-citizens and sheep-herder legislators would perhaps see the great utility in individual, armed militias (read: [i]Citizens[/i], to all the anti's out there). Unfortunately, another reason THIS even would be futile is due to the already established federal armed organizations, which we often call the Armed Forces. Unless a massive domestic espionage situation took place, there'd be no way the militia would have a chance to contribute in light of millions of federally employed soldiers already doing the job. Almost makes you wish we had a [u]Red Dawn[/u], doesn't it?? I have done a fair share of contributing to our cause: NRA membership/donation, as well as writing a letter to Congressman Little of the State of Alabama, expressing my views. It's not that "I can only do so much", but rather "I don't know what else to do". Short of (when I'm independent and making money) making contributions to the NRA/RKBA/GOA/etc, writing to every respective Congressman in my state, and setting up private and public campaigning for, say, a pro-2nd Senator, I'm at a loss for any other efforts I can take. As you stated, KBaker, the power of the people's stupidity is the greatest force in America, which can be seen in the mob-mentality congregation of the MMM and other Rosie-ites. The media has already frowned upon us. This is a double-edged sword, with both edges slicing in our direction. Not only has media and the likes made us "evil", but it has also (and perhaps most importantly) given us a hefty disadvantage in the genre of protest and speech. If the average citizen has already been conditioned to think we are evil, we have to be [i]extremely cautious[/i] about how we project ourselves in organized assembly. If we go too far, we're perceived as "crazy gun nuts", and yet if we don't go far enough, we become overwhelmed by the returning arguments of the spineless, though greatly numbered, Pavlovian dogs. Preparing stockades of ammunition and building pillboxes in your own home will not help our cause. In this, and in future, generations, we must fight fire with fire - that being widespread organization, outreach, and protest using the fullest extent of the law. It is sad, however, to see that our flames, although hotter than our adversaries, our smaller than theirs - especially in a culture where quantity seems to outweigh quality [:\] [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:23:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." -- Benjamin Franklin "[B]A general dissolution of principles[/B] and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. " -- Samuel Adams
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Damn, Imbrog|io, if that's how you talk to the women, no wonder you're alone. But your quotations are right on the money.
TreetopFlyer wrote: Even politicians need to be elected, and if they think for even a moment that we are a threat to their security they will flip flop very quickly.
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Thus explaining why Chuckie Schumer et. al. are afraid of citizens owning .50 caliber rifles capable of "reaching out and touching them" inside armored limosines. They want the other congresscritters to be afraid too.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:24:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2001 2:22:56 PM EDT by TreetopFlyer]
Preparing stockades of ammunition and building pillboxes in your own home will not help our cause. In this, and in future, generations, we must fight fire with fire - that being widespread organization, outreach, and protest using the fullest extent of the law. It is sad, however, to see that our flames, although hotter than our adversaries, our smaller than theirs - especially in a culture where quantity seems to outweigh quality Evil Jewbroni~ > > > > > What you said! [thinking]
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:26:42 PM EDT
We are getting way ahead of ourselves here, we need to first ask who is going to come for our guns? The ATF, not likely. The FBI, not enough man power there. The military, I don't know I know only about ten young soldiers, but they all say that they would defect if given an order to march on Americans. So even the military would be compromised. The UN, well you can pretty much guarantee our military won't let that happen. The sad fact is that they will keep demonizing someone until we all say 'He got what he deserved'. Remember the Davidians were child molesters and producing meth until the facts came out. After banning guns outright with no fan fare (or war) they will just pick us up one by one as we screw up, and all the while we will be saying 'He shouldn't have been so stupid'. It really doesn't matter what the public thinks because we've beaten ourselves already.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:31:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Slave 1: We are getting way ahead of ourselves here, we need to first ask who is going to come for our guns? The ATF, not likely. The FBI, not enough man power there. The military, I don't know I know only about ten young soldiers, but they all say that they would defect if given an order to march on Americans. So even the military would be compromised. The UN, well you can pretty much guarantee our military won't let that happen. The sad fact is that they will keep demonizing someone until we all say 'He got what he deserved'. Remember the Davidians were child molesters and producing meth until the facts came out. After banning guns outright with no fan fare (or war) they will just pick us up one by one as we screw up, and all the while we will be saying 'He shouldn't have been so stupid'. It really doesn't matter what the public thinks because we've beaten ourselves already.
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I accept and I agree with all that you said...except for the last line. I, we, are NOT beaten. We are forming. We are the First, and the Last Line of defense and reason...Until we draw our last breath. No, all hope is not lost.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:39:45 PM EDT
We need to remember this, there are 80 million gun owners in America. There is something like 300 million guns in private hands. We out number them, even if they all stand together, but only if we stand together. The only reason the rule of law works is because we let it. I say a display of mass civil disobedience would get their attention. Then we should let them know that there is nothing they could do about it. What we need is a whole community of gun owners living together to protect each other (sounds like a bunch of cultists). Why wait for the first move?
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 3:02:13 PM EDT
"United We Stand , Divided We Fall" ! We MUST follow the lessons learned in so many past times. We must get organized better. A perfect lesson to learn is in the black Civil Rights Movement of the 60's & 70's. We must fund the groups that can lobby for change , follow leaders into the streets in protest , help get elected those that will fight for us , give our time to the cause without concern for ourselfs , teach our children to lead the future , and understand that change will not happen over night. After all this has failed then MAYBE we can with a clear soul take up arms against our Govt. The time left to do this is very short , The GOP party has learned that the ONLY future they have as a national party is to appeal to the "growing masses of takers". As we see the GOP move more to the left we lose more & more "in-place" support. If anyone thinks George W is going to save us , I must sadly state that you are wrong. If you do not already belong & pay dues plus some to at least 3-4 groups that are fighting for good , you MUST join. You MUST talk your family & friends into joining these groups. But the sad truth is that gun owners are not "joiners" We are great "gripers" and damn good "bitchers" , but not "joiners". Hell, most "gun nuts" I know are not even members of the NRA !!
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 6:17:29 PM EDT
Contras21 I apologize for missing the point you were trying to make. You are correct, we are the first and last line of defense. To everyone else, We see that some are willing to commit to something bigger than themselves, and others want to roll over in fear and wet on themselves, because there are so many reasons that standing up like a true Americans just won't work. We can't force people to have a spine, but we start working on something that can become our legacy. I don't believe that a mass showing of civil disobedience is an answer, because it plays into the anti's hands. However a mass showing of unity is a good step. The problem here is that we cannot let it become a side show like the million man, or the million mom march. We can't be stupid, lewd, or antagonized. We have to be better than our opposition. We need to find people who are articulate to do our talking (not like the Mich. Militia) We need to search out people who can give us real legal advise to help us conduct ourselves within the law. NRA,GOA,and the rest do a good job but they can use movements that won't go out and make asses of themselves infront of a liberal media and audience to reinforce their efforts. We can't allow members of our team to become prisoners of war because we didn't do our home work and they were involved in something that got them arrested. Now is not the time to become a felon. (Its really difficult to maintain your skills as one) This forum is a great place to share ideas with other patriots that may be used to our advantage. If we were talking about getting together for a shoot and barbecue, there would be tons of realistic suggestions, but as soon as this subject is brought up most people retreat to there corners and argue about who's right. I ask you this, Would you rather be right or Free? I'm not asking or suggesting anyone break the laws as they stand. I'm am however asking that you get out of your comfort zone and make something happen. For you and your children. Maybe, as some suggest the world is going to hell in a bucket, but it doesn't have to happen on our watch.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 6:31:50 PM EDT
I will fight for my guns some of them have been in my family for 4 genrations and I will not see thoes be chopped in half.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 6:49:06 PM EDT
One question I always ask anti's that they stutter and stammer over and can't answer is this: If all the other amendments in the Bill of Rights apply to individuals (free speech, self incrimination, etc), why do you people try to say that the Second only applies to states? After all, the Bill of Rights is not stating the rights of states, but the rights of individuals. I have never gotten a thought out answer to this. I usually get the name calling: fanatic, gun nut, etc.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 7:40:08 PM EDT
LARRY G Rational arguments are wasted on gun grabbers. They are not thinking, they are feeling. No matter how well argued your points, they will always say, "Do it for the children". If that fails to sway you, you are branded a nut and dismissed. They have little or no experience with guns, and are bombarded with media propaganda on a daily basis. I have been living in occupied territory for quite some time. The primary reason I feel freedom is a lost cause, is that the all of the young people I see do not value freedom. In another 10 years, the brainwashed youth will be getting jobs, voting, and running the country. They did not learn the lessons of the cold war. Most would gladly trade every right for a Big Mac and fries. The rest are afraid to speak out, because even pointing a chicken finger will get you suspended from school and a trip to the shrink. To turn the swelling tide, we need the support of the mass media. That is very unlikely to happen. They constantly feed their socialist agent to a hungry audience too lazy to question it. I can not even image the Supreme Court declaring guns to be Constitutionally protected, and overturning all federal gun laws. Nor can I image the grabbers deciding that there are enough gun laws and just giving up. Neither can I see enough freedom loving politicians being elected to repeal most of these insane laws. It just ain't gonna happen. The grabbers will chip away at the stone until there is only dust.
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 10:18:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: One question I always ask anti's that they stutter and stammer over and can't answer is this: If all the other amendments in the Bill of Rights apply to individuals (free speech, self incrimination, etc), why do you people try to say that the Second only applies to states? After all, the Bill of Rights is not stating the rights of states, but the rights of individuals. I have never gotten a thought out answer to this. I usually get the name calling: fanatic, gun nut, etc.
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excatly just like when a anti spouts off about ithe 2nd only applaiyng to the military and that the milita means the national guard they start stammerinhg sputterng and flat out B.S. wheni point out that the national Guard wasnt around when the constituian was ratified. oh yeah the constitiun doenst grant rights it justs points out god given rights that already excisted from the dawn of time. #1 right to a opinen #2 right to defend self etc etc etc
Link Posted: 7/7/2001 1:23:03 AM EDT
[/quote] No, all hope is not lost. [/quote] I agree, however, for tyranny to succeed, all good men have to do is nothing!
Link Posted: 7/7/2001 2:54:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2001 2:55:21 AM EDT by satcong]
The powers that be They like a tough game No rules Some you win Some you lose Competition's good for you They're dying to be free They're the powers that be They like a bomb proof cadillac Air conditioned Gold taps Back seat gun rack Platinum hub caps Nice car Jack They like order Make-up Lime light power Game shows Rodeos Star wars TV They're the powers that be If you see them come You better run Run You better run on home Sisters of mercy better join your brothers Put a stop to the soap opera right now They say the toothless get ruthless You better run on home You better run Run You better run on home The powers that be They like treats Tricks Carrots And sticks They like fear and loathing They like sheep's clothing And blacked-out vans Blacked-out vans Contingency plans They like death or glory They love a good story They love a good story Sisters of mercy better join with your brothers Put a stop to the soap opera state They say the toothless get ruthless Run home before its too late You better run Run You better run on home **************************************** Will you hear when the lion within you roars Will you take to the hills Could be your father And it could be your mother Could be your sister Could be your brother Could be someone out looking for work Could be the Aga khan Could be a Vietnam vet with no arms and no legs Could be a saint Could be a sinner Could be a loser Or it could be a winner Could be a banker Could be a baker Could be a Laker Could be Kareem Abdul Jabar Could be a lover Could be a fighter Could be a super heavyweight Or it could be something lighter Could be a cripple Could be a freak Could be a wop, gook, geek Could be a cop Could be a thief
Link Posted: 7/7/2001 4:02:45 AM EDT
Like it or not, the Supreme Court has the power to interpret the Constitution
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Bullshit!! This is the problem. People have been so brainwashed by the propaganda taught in the public school system that they believe this shit. The SC has no legal authority to inerpret the constitution. They do it without legal authority and so far have gotten a pass. Show me where the constitution gives the SC that authority. It ain't there.
Link Posted: 7/7/2001 4:20:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By greentimber:
Like it or not, the Supreme Court has the power to interpret the Constitution
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Bullshit!! This is the problem. People have been so brainwashed by the propaganda taught in the public school system that they believe this shit. The SC has no legal authority to inerpret the constitution. They do it without legal authority and so far have gotten a pass. Show me where the constitution gives the SC that authority. It ain't there.
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You are right there is no authority! If the founding fathers wished for the constitution to be interpreted by those in power at any given time, then why a written constitution? The courts have become ORGANIZED CRIME CARTELS with their BAR ASSOCIATIONS that violate the Sherman Anti-trust Act, use sedition, conspiracy, seditious conspiracy, and public funds to deny the power of the constitution, thus engage in insurrection! The constitution was written on behalf of the people, and written to the government as the bounds placed upon such government to which it can operate! When that government goes beyond the bounds placed upon it it becomes arbitrary, the people have a right to use force of arms to remove them, (Hist. Athens Tenn. 1946: when the people themselves as militia used force of arms to remove the sheriff and a county official that operated beyond the bounds of the constitution). TYRANNOCTUNUS
Link Posted: 7/7/2001 4:26:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan: (Hist. Athens Tenn. 1946: when the people themselves as militia used force of arms to remove the sheriff and a county official that operated beyond the bounds of the constitution).
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really??? what happened, what was the aftermath???
Link Posted: 7/7/2001 4:48:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2001 4:56:01 AM EDT by andreusan]
Originally Posted By fattym4:
Originally Posted By andreusan: (Hist. Athens Tenn. 1946: when the people themselves as militia used force of arms to remove the sheriff and a county official that operated beyond the bounds of the constitution).
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really??? what happened, what was the aftermath???
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The battle was over election fraud, the same kind as in Palm Beach Florida! The militia (the people themselves) held new elections the next day with the people electing who they wanted, not who those fixing the ballot wanted! [url]www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm
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