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Posted: 5/12/2005 10:23:52 AM EDT
[#1]
Please put me on the list of people who want to retire and spend time shooting things, just like O_P. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 10:29:41 AM EDT
[#2]
good read, thanks
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Posted: 5/12/2005 10:30:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Great thread Painless. I just bought a new German Flak jacket so this is very interesting.
I can comment on the blunt trauma. Blunt trauma can be as severe if not worse then a penetrating injury. An AK round may whistle though your body and make little wounds. Very little enegery dumped into your body. Thats why the 5.56 was thought to be so much more effective because it stopped when it hit a target and dumped all the energy into the target. As you can see be the wounds under the jacket, they are pretty severe. Broken bones and internal injuries and bleeding would be common. A shot to the spleen or liver, you could easily have massive hemmorhage and bleed out internally. Not to mention a large enough blunt hit to your chest can stop your heart. Abdomnial shots can damage and kill portions of the bowel. Long slow lingering deaths. Is it better the nothing? Usually but not always. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 10:34:07 AM EDT
[#4]
Thanks O_P!!!!
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Posted: 5/12/2005 10:47:54 AM EDT
[#5]
Thanks, great post as usual.
It is cool to shoot stuff |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 11:17:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Don't forget, "...and fun...". 
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Posted: 5/12/2005 12:34:43 PM EDT
[#7]
A little bump for the evening crew.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 1:59:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks Doc, for the information. I figured you might come by and fill us in. I appreciate the help. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 2:12:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks OP, excellent as always!
BTW, I tried stabbing through one of these vests with my CRKT M16 before I sent them off and wasn't able to penetrate it. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 2:19:29 PM EDT
[#10]
I believe those are old flak jackets that predate even the PASGT I was issued in 1989.
The two things that surprise me about this test. 1. 22Lr didnt penetrate. Velocity is what usually penetrates soft armor. there is a certain velocity threshold for most armor. it will stop anything moving slower than a specific speed, and nothing moving faster. 2. inconsistant performance by the 9mm |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 2:54:17 PM EDT
[#11]
For future tests see if you can run some 7.62x25 rounds.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 2:56:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Thanks for all your help. Tman had to cut the bullets from the material to take that last pic. It was really difficult to cut them out. Its my job to shoot them into the stuff, and his........well, you get the picture. 
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Posted: 5/12/2005 3:15:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Good points. But I would not call it "inconsistant performance by the 9mm". I would call it "inconsistant performance by different panels of armor". The newer panel of the groin armor was "tougher" than the older panel from the vest. As suspected, I believe that this stuff deteriorates after long periods of time. As you pointed out, this stuff I shot is getting old. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:02:36 PM EDT
[#14]
I don't happen to own a pistol that shoots that round. I try to use "common" rounds that most people will have. If I shoot "exotic" calibers, there will be fewer people that will learn things. But thanks for the tip.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:14:36 PM EDT
[#15]
A couple of years ago I did a similar, but not nearly so developed, test on a PASGT vest. Oddly enough, I found that it stopped all handgun ammunition from .22lr to .44 Mag. In addition, I was young and stupid (now at least I'm no longer young) and didn't know it had to be "backed" by anything, so I just hung it over the target stand. In no case did a handgun round completely penetrate the vest. I was able to recover every single bullet fired into the vest, usually trapped between layers of Kevlar.
Of course, rifle rounds didn't even slow down. I did notice that the hollowpoints used in the PASGT vest weren't filled like O_P's bullets were; they were simply smashed flat. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:18:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Educate me, please. What is PASGT? |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:21:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Sweet!
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:25:27 PM EDT
[#18]
OP, you overlooked something, no test of yours is complete without the Shotgun slug.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:27:17 PM EDT
[#19]
No I didn't. You overlooked something.
I'm way ahead of you. Slugs coming up. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:27:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Judging from the dent made in the clay behind "groin protector", clay achin is a suitable name. I don't think many men would be left standing after getting the boys jostled by a .45 ACP. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:29:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Personnel Armor System for Ground Troops (PASGT) Kevlar helmet and vest combo in use since, what, early 80s, until the deployment of the new Interceptor body armor.  ETA: now, a Kevlar helmet test would be interesting...... |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:35:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Many thanks. If someone can find some, remember our motto: "You ship, we shoot." The UPS comes by here every day.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:35:52 PM EDT
[#23]
You call that scientific???? Well, me either but informative? You betcha!
I mean, who hasnt looked at one of those vests at a funshow or surplus store and wondered...hmmmm. Never shoot youself in the groin. 
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:37:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Sigline alert! |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:38:03 PM EDT
[#25]
You are wise, Grashopper.  Some folks still don't get it.
And, I might add, "With or without armor." Those dents in the clay make my boys retreat, IYKWIM.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:38:16 PM EDT
[#26]
I was looking at the pics and not the text. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:43:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Thanks for a cool thread.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:49:38 PM EDT
[#28]
You're certainly welcome.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:51:38 PM EDT
[#29]
What really got me was the dent, from the 40S&W. For not goin through,that was a hell of a dent.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:55:31 PM EDT
[#30]
 Thanks, O_P 
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:56:33 PM EDT
[#31]
O_P, I'm going to build a statue in your honor. You are my hero now.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:59:33 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm glad. But instead of a statue, go to www.theboxotruth.com/, click the Paypal Donation button, and make a small donation. That clay and other materials gets expensive. And thanks. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:03:05 PM EDT
[#33]
great thread! thanks!
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:04:00 PM EDT
[#34]
I'll tell you what. If the poo ever hit the fan and I had to travel where I thought there might be gunplay, I'd be a lot more comfortable in one of those than without. I have a question. I've seen plenty of those vests around, is it easy to tell the "new" from the "old" ones. I mean, you could tell the newer looking jewel protector from the older vest part. How could you tell? Was it just newer looking? |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:05:47 PM EDT
[#35]
Used Israeli Kevlar helmets are much cheaper than US issued PASGT helmets. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:10:55 PM EDT
[#36]
IIRC the Army vest was soft ballistic nylon, the Marine/Navy vest was the one with the hard plates. Both were designed in the early-mid '50s though. The Army vest was updated in the '60s but was still the same material. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:12:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Once again, great post.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:21:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Yep, that's all. DVDTracker sent me several vests and the groin protector. The vests looked "used" but the groin protector looked "un-used". Sorry I can't be more specific, but there it is. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:23:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Thanks for all the hard work.
Can you tell us what round was used with the .40 and .357? |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:27:52 PM EDT
[#40]
Awesome as usual, many thanks OP!
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:33:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Didn't the vest have a date code on it?
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:35:39 PM EDT
[#42]
Bring on the Sharp's
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:37:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Sure! The .40 S&W was a Corbon 135 gr JHP, at 1,300 fps. The .357 Mag was my handload, a 158 gr. JHP over 15.0 grains of AA-9, for 1,300 fps. And, although you didn't ask, the .44 Mag was my handload 240 grain JHP, over 20.0 gr. of AA-9, for 1,450 fps. I cared enough to send the very best. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:40:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Just went out in the garage and looked. I don't see a date code, but it might be some code I don't recognize. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:41:06 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm afraid it might bounce off and hit me in the head.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:46:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Building a statue is not an implication that I have money.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:47:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Then I will be happy with your well-wishes. Many thanks. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:53:59 PM EDT
[#48]
Thanks. I didn't ask about the .44 because I didn't want to appear to be greedy The clay makes a nice visual. |
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Posted: 5/12/2005 5:57:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Thank you for another great test.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 6:09:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Tman and I were surprised at the damage to the clay. Especially from the rounds that penetrated the vest. Compared to the sand that we shot in the Sands O' Truth thread, we were surprised that the clay seemed to offer almost no resistance to the bullets. The rounds went through the clay like it wasn't even there. The cavities, although it is difficult to see in the pictures, were truly awesome. I sure woudn't want a cavity like that in my guts. |
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