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Az_Redneck
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:02:08 PM
I was watching the thing go down and a few things stood out to me.

When Scott McClellan gave the Whitehouse Press Conference on the situation, he said that their main priority was the safety and security of the staff and employees of the Capitol and the WH...

What was it that the "employees" were told to do? RUN! Go away!

Then a reporter asked Scott where he went..His reply

TO A SECURE LOCATION! (i.e. a bunker!)

And now the tangos know we have government employees in the street by the hundreds if a plane comes close to the no fly zone.. Good one! Good tactics. Get them outside and then take them out! What was the SS thinking?

The plane, which was tracked by NORAD was a small trainer. Less than 2000lbs. Not big anough to carry any significant amount of explosives and probably wouldn't even chip the paint on the WH. NORAD knew this. They tracked the plane and received reports from the jets and the (I.C.E.) Blackhawk. Why evacuate if there is a chemical/biological threat?

They sent up the ICE BH Helo because the plane can only do about 100mph top speed and the jets can't fly that slow. But, had the plane started dropping altitude, the jets would have shot it down. But, then you have to worry about debris hitting the evacuees and other buildings causing possibly more collateral damage...Makes sense huh?

Personally, I think it was a BAD idea to evacuate given the information they had at the time.
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TexasSIG
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:04:36 PM
Just shows what we have guessed all along, that there is really no plan of action in place and we are no better protected
than on 9/10. That they take my cigar lighter at the airport does not make us safe.
Your village called, they want their idiot back.

Penguin_101
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:05:17 PM
Yeah, it was stupid. They should of shot it down when it did not listen to the tower and see the big jets with superior fire power.
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deej86
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:05:25 PM
Something like that.
viper5194
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:05:32 PM
Dont think anyone ever said out guberment was the most intelligent .....
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Win_88
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:08:31 PM

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yeah, it was stupid. They should of shot it down when it did not listen to the tower and see the big jets with superior fire power.



+1
The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:10:30 PM
WARNING ALERT LEVEL HAS BEEN RAISED TO OFF WHITE

ALL EMPLOYEES AND VISITORS ARE ADVISED TO PANIC AT WILL
Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.

-Frank Zappa

BallisticTip
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:14:20 PM
It is the way of the .gov to turn us all into run away sheep ! We need to stand our ground and not run.
"They're telling us they'd rather die than come out and surrender....so.. They're gonna die..."
Tomislav
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:16:42 PM

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yeah, it was stupid. They should of shot it down when it did not listen to the tower and see the big jets with superior fire power.



+1. How many 'strays' are they going to go easy on? It should be pretty clear that if you can see the White House or some other DC landmark from your plane, you are about to be shot down.
Goonboss
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:17:45 PM
With respect.

You have no idea what a legit bio strike would do. A well planned and executed bio stike could do signifigant soft target damage to any urban area hit. Urban areas are best, believe me.

There is no such thing as JUST a chem strike. It's going to be a bio/chem cocktail.

I worked at USAMRIID. There are other people on this board (paying, if that makes a dif) that can back me, up, I think. You have no idea the hell that could be inflicted by one small plane.

It's fun to poke fun at .gov. I love to do it myself.

Bio/chem is no joke.

But, I have no doubt people will scream at their rights to fly in certain areas will be infringed
Win_88
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:22:49 PM
I have been looking at the news videos of congressmen and senators running from the hill. The local radio shows said it was everything from the strange to the bizarre.

I was hoping to see Ted Kenedy running from the Senate looking like the stay puff marshmellow man with the runs.
The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:43:58 PM

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
With respect.

You have no idea what a legit bio strike would do. A well planned and executed bio stike could do signifigant soft target damage to any urban area hit. Urban areas are best, believe me.

There is no such thing as JUST a chem strike. It's going to be a bio/chem cocktail.

I worked at USAMRIID. There are other people on this board (paying, if that makes a dif) that can back me, up, I think. You have no idea the hell that could be inflicted by one small plane.

It's fun to poke fun at .gov. I love to do it myself.

Bio/chem is no joke.

But, I have no doubt people will scream at their rights to fly in certain areas will be infringed



if it was a plane loaded with bio or chem weapons <or both> the smart thing would be for those folks to be inside away from the crash. <less chance of contamination> No where would trully be "safe" i'd prefer enclosed cover to open air at least for the short term.

frankly i think a bio/chem attack like that is very relistic. a small plane full of explosives would be much cheaper and have a much more media freindly effect. jmho

mike

ps.... i was USAMRIID too
Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.

-Frank Zappa

CeramicGod
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:50:49 PM
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.
eodtech2000
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:51:57 PM

Originally Posted By Win_88:
I have been looking at the news videos of congressmen and senators running from the hill. The local radio shows said it was everything from the strange to the bizarre.

I was hoping to see Ted Kenedy running from the Senate looking like the stay puff marshmellow man with the runs.



You just have to tell him that a bar outside the beltway is having happy hour.
The Real heros were the Yards and the folks who didn't make it home.

11/29/91 Franklin D. Miller (MOH)
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The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:52:29 PM

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.



in that case running and screaming wouldn't matter <neither would cover>
Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.

-Frank Zappa

Goonboss
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Posted: 5/11/2005 8:55:54 PM

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
With respect.

You have no idea what a legit bio strike would do. A well planned and executed bio stike could do signifigant soft target damage to any urban area hit. Urban areas are best, believe me.

There is no such thing as JUST a chem strike. It's going to be a bio/chem cocktail.

I worked at USAMRIID. There are other people on this board (paying, if that makes a dif) that can back me, up, I think. You have no idea the hell that could be inflicted by one small plane.

It's fun to poke fun at .gov. I love to do it myself.

Bio/chem is no joke.

But, I have no doubt people will scream at their rights to fly in certain areas will be infringed



if it was a plane loaded with bio or chem weapons <or both> the smart thing would be for those folks to be inside away from the crash. <less chance of contamination> No where would trully be "safe" i'd prefer enclosed cover to open air at least for the short term.

frankly i think a bio/chem attack like that is very relistic. a small plane full of explosives would be much cheaper and have a much more media freindly effect. jmho

mike

ps.... i was USAMRIID too



What I'm sayin' bro...cheaper? Yeah....More effective? No way. I'm talking about an asertive attack...There's no telling weather that plane is explosives, bio/chem or otherwise. I'd run like a bitch if an attack like that took place.

IM me man...Small club.
The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 5/11/2005 9:07:55 PM
yea i know,

i was just bustin yer chops.

damn MRV's
Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.

-Frank Zappa

nationwide
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Posted: 5/11/2005 9:10:40 PM

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
WARNING ALERT LEVEL HAS BEEN RAISED TO OFF WHITE

ALL EMPLOYEES AND VISITORS ARE ADVISED TO PANIC AT WILL



All I want out of life is a cute senorita to help me with my spanish, and maybe my GREEK if I'm lucky!!!

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MikeTx
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Posted: 5/11/2005 9:30:05 PM
My favorite scene from a movie is from "Mars Attacks", where the Martians kill off all the Senate.
H46Driver
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Posted: 5/11/2005 9:32:09 PM

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
I was watching the thing go down and a few things stood out to me.

When Scott McClellan gave the Whitehouse Press Conference on the situation, he said that their main priority was the safety and security of the staff and employees of the Capitol and the WH...

What was it that the "employees" were told to do? RUN! Go away!

Then a reporter asked Scott where he went..His reply

TO A SECURE LOCATION! (i.e. a bunker!)

And now the tangos know we have government employees in the street by the hundreds if a plane comes close to the no fly zone.. Good one! Good tactics. Get them outside and then take them out! What was the SS thinking?

The plane, which was tracked by NORAD was a small trainer. Less than 2000lbs. Not big anough to carry any significant amount of explosives and probably wouldn't even chip the paint on the WH. NORAD knew this. They tracked the plane and received reports from the jets and the (I.C.E.) Blackhawk. Why evacuate if there is a chemical/biological threat?

They sent up the ICE BH Helo because the plane can only do about 100mph top speed and the jets can't fly that slow. But, had the plane started dropping altitude, the jets would have shot it down. But, then you have to worry about debris hitting the evacuees and other buildings causing possibly more collateral damage...Makes sense huh?

Personally, I think it was a BAD idea to evacuate given the information they had at the time.



You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you don't really know what you are talking about. First, you are assuming that the folks looking at the radar track knew what kind of aircraft they were tracking when someone else gave the evacuation order. You are wrong in making that assumption. The evacuation order was given before there was a visual ID on the target.

Second, you are assuming that NORAD gave the evacuation order. Wrong again. I will guarantee you one thing.

Finally, you assume that the decision maker had all of the information that you had when you decided he was stupid. The information comes in tiny bits and pieces from different sources and usually not properly sequenced in time. You may be some real rocket scientist, but the folks who are in the position to make these decisions have survived a vetting process that weeds out 95% of the folks who work in their fields. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Very often? No, or they wouldn't have their jobs.

I heard the events in pretty close to real time and I can't fault the decision makers today. You, as I wrote earlier, are of course entitled to your own opinion, informed or not.
The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 5/11/2005 10:34:39 PM

Originally Posted By MikeTx:
My favorite scene from a movie is from "Mars Attacks", where the Martians kill off all the Senate.



then the obvious answer is slim whitman recordings playing over the intercom systems in ALL government buildings.
Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.

-Frank Zappa

K9zak
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:18:22 PM
I think something else was up. I believe they had some prior knowledge and intel that something was going to happen and soon. They may have thought this was the BIG ONE. Thats why all the panic.
jkstexas2001
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:24:11 PM

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
With respect.

You have no idea what a legit bio strike would do. A well planned and executed bio stike could do signifigant soft target damage to any urban area hit. Urban areas are best, believe me.

There is no such thing as JUST a chem strike. It's going to be a bio/chem cocktail.

I worked at USAMRIID. There are other people on this board (paying, if that makes a dif) that can back me, up, I think. You have no idea the hell that could be inflicted by one small plane.

It's fun to poke fun at .gov. I love to do it myself.

Bio/chem is no joke.

But, I have no doubt people will scream at their rights to fly in certain areas will be infringed



Why don't you tell them about the weaponized anthrax dispersal scenario you guys thought up, involving a small plane. Exactly how much damage would only 50 lbs of spores do, if sprayed out of a modified crop duster?
jkstexas2001
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:24:55 PM

Originally Posted By K9zak:
I think something else was up. I believe they had some prior knowledge and intel that something was going to happen and soon. They may have thought this was the BIG ONE. Thats why all the panic.



There have been recent flights of this nature where there were no evacuations.
The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:26:32 PM

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
With respect.

You have no idea what a legit bio strike would do. A well planned and executed bio stike could do signifigant soft target damage to any urban area hit. Urban areas are best, believe me.

There is no such thing as JUST a chem strike. It's going to be a bio/chem cocktail.

I worked at USAMRIID. There are other people on this board (paying, if that makes a dif) that can back me, up, I think. You have no idea the hell that could be inflicted by one small plane.

It's fun to poke fun at .gov. I love to do it myself.

Bio/chem is no joke.

But, I have no doubt people will scream at their rights to fly in certain areas will be infringed



Why don't you tell them about the weaponized anthrax dispersal scenario you guys thought up, involving a small plane. Exactly how much damage would only 50 lbs of spores do, if sprayed out of a modified crop duster?



the problem is them getting their hands on weaponised anthrax. it's not easy to get nor make. Anthrax is actually highly overrated for a bio weapon. there are MUCH easier and better biologicals out there.
Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.

-Frank Zappa

smokycity
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:28:53 PM
[Last Edit: 5/11/2005 11:29:14 PM by smokycity]
Well if they had .50 cals on top of the Washington Monument, they could have shot that Cessna down with one round from 5 miles out. Just ask Fienstein.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
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dport
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:31:01 PM

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
I was watching the thing go down and a few things stood out to me.

When Scott McClellan gave the Whitehouse Press Conference on the situation, he said that their main priority was the safety and security of the staff and employees of the Capitol and the WH...

What was it that the "employees" were told to do? RUN! Go away!

Then a reporter asked Scott where he went..His reply

TO A SECURE LOCATION! (i.e. a bunker!)

And now the tangos know we have government employees in the street by the hundreds if a plane comes close to the no fly zone.. Good one! Good tactics. Get them outside and then take them out! What was the SS thinking?

The plane, which was tracked by NORAD was a small trainer. Less than 2000lbs. Not big anough to carry any significant amount of explosives and probably wouldn't even chip the paint on the WH. NORAD knew this. They tracked the plane and received reports from the jets and the (I.C.E.) Blackhawk. Why evacuate if there is a chemical/biological threat?

They sent up the ICE BH Helo because the plane can only do about 100mph top speed and the jets can't fly that slow. But, had the plane started dropping altitude, the jets would have shot it down. But, then you have to worry about debris hitting the evacuees and other buildings causing possibly more collateral damage...Makes sense huh?

Personally, I think it was a BAD idea to evacuate given the information they had at the time.



You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you don't really know what you are talking about. First, you are assuming that the folks looking at the radar track knew what kind of aircraft they were tracking when someone else gave the evacuation order. You are wrong in making that assumption. The evacuation order was given before there was a visual ID on the target.

Second, you are assuming that NORAD gave the evacuation order. Wrong again. I will guarantee you one thing.

Finally, you assume that the decision maker had all of the information that you had when you decided he was stupid. The information comes in tiny bits and pieces from different sources and usually not properly sequenced in time. You may be some real rocket scientist, but the folks who are in the position to make these decisions have survived a vetting process that weeds out 95% of the folks who work in their fields. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Very often? No, or they wouldn't have their jobs.

I heard the events in pretty close to real time and I can't fault the decision makers today. You, as I wrote earlier, are of course entitled to your own opinion, informed or not.



I read the post and thought "here's someone who knows what's what." Then I saw who posted it, and went "well duh, I wouldn't expect anything less."

Yep, you go on the best info you have at the time.

My guess is there is a standard set of PPRs, if I know how the .gov operates, and one of those PPRs probably is when there is an unidentified air contact within restricted space to evacuate hi-pri buildings to reduce the possible casualties of a suicide aircraft.

Which is faster and more effective than: wait until the air contact is identified (you lose too much time) and then go into a logic tree- if the a/c is 'x' then do 'y', or if the a/c is 'a' do 'b'. You lose too much time, and you have too many responses to train into people who really only give a damn when the SHTF.
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Johninaustin
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:39:10 PM
I thought they did pretty damn good myself. It's one heck of a big complex to evacuate, and they did it in minutes.

Chem/bio is NASTY stuff to contemplate. That one plane would be good for several square miles, and would overwhelm any possible emergency response.

I wonder how many MANPADS were on the roof of the Whitehouse?
Az_Redneck
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:54:25 PM

Originally Posted By H46Driver:


You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you don't really know what you are talking about. First, you are assuming that the folks looking at the radar track knew what kind of aircraft they were tracking when someone else gave the evacuation order. You are wrong in making that assumption. The evacuation order was given before there was a visual ID on the target.

Second, you are assuming that NORAD gave the evacuation order. Wrong again. I will guarantee you one thing.

Finally, you assume that the decision maker had all of the information that you had when you decided he was stupid. The information comes in tiny bits and pieces from different sources and usually not properly sequenced in time. You may be some real rocket scientist, but the folks who are in the position to make these decisions have survived a vetting process that weeds out 95% of the folks who work in their fields. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Very often? No, or they wouldn't have their jobs.

I heard the events in pretty close to real time and I can't fault the decision makers today. You, as I wrote earlier, are of course entitled to your own opinion, informed or not.



I never said NORAD gave the evacuation order. That came from either the SS or Capitol Police (I assume)

NORAD knew exactly what kind of plane it was. The jets that were on its tail knew the tail numbers and reported them back to their base as soon as they intercepted the small plane. The pilot was escorted out of the no-fly zone (after the jet pilots dropped some flares as a warning) and he chose to turn back and go back into it. It was called a "paperclip" move. That's when the threat level was raised from yellow to orange and ultimately to red.

During that time, they had time to evacuate the government buildings, get the "important" people to the underground shelter and whisk away the VP...Now, you tell me they didn't know what size plane it was...You don't think NORAD can tell the difference between a jetliner and a single engine trainer?

Think again...

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IamtheNRA
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Posted: 5/11/2005 11:57:24 PM

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
With respect.

You have no idea what a legit bio strike would do. A well planned and executed bio stike could do signifigant soft target damage to any urban area hit. Urban areas are best, believe me.

There is no such thing as JUST a chem strike. It's going to be a bio/chem cocktail.

I worked at USAMRIID. There are other people on this board (paying, if that makes a dif) that can back me, up, I think. You have no idea the hell that could be inflicted by one small plane.

It's fun to poke fun at .gov. I love to do it myself.

Bio/chem is no joke.

But, I have no doubt people will scream at their rights to fly in certain areas will be infringed



You worked at USAMRIID at Ft. Detrick??? Sweet...I used to work at DTRA HQ at Ft. Belvoir...fun place...if most people saw the stuff I have seen, they probably wouldn't sleep very well at night...
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Posted: 5/12/2005 12:04:38 AM

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.



You do know a "suitcase nuke" is not the size or weight of a suitcase, right?
Life is GOOD.
dport
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Posted: 5/12/2005 12:39:26 AM

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
I never said NORAD gave the evacuation order. That came from either the SS or Capitol Police (I assume)

NORAD knew exactly what kind of plane it was. The jets that were on its tail knew the tail numbers and reported them back to their base as soon as they intercepted the small plane. The pilot was escorted out of the no-fly zone (after the jet pilots dropped some flares as a warning) and he chose to turn back and go back into it. It was called a "paperclip" move. That's when the threat level was raised from yellow to orange and ultimately to red.

During that time, they had time to evacuate the government buildings, get the "important" people to the underground shelter and whisk away the VP...Now, you tell me they didn't know what size plane it was...You don't think NORAD can tell the difference between a jetliner and a single engine trainer?

Think again...




The jets didn't get an instant visual ID on the aircraft.

There are reasons you keep the VIPs under wraps. For instance, what happens if this is a coordinated attack? What if the BGs are flying a plane to get the SS to evacuate the VIPs and then the BGs attack the VIPs when they are out in the open and vulnerable?

Of course, you know what should have been done in your command center with perfect intel in Arizona.
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Cold_Warrior
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Posted: 5/12/2005 12:50:23 AM

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.



You do know a "suitcase nuke" is not the size or weight of a suitcase, right?


Right thinking (i.e.radiation), wrong method of delivery. Try crop dusting with any variety of radioactive dust. My fave has always been Cesium, but plutonium works well also. Have experience with both.

CW
Goonboss
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Posted: 5/12/2005 12:53:08 AM
In the days of suitcase nukes, and, bio/chem agents that can wipe out cities.....

CITIZENS! I AM ON THE MESAGE BOARD! I WILL TELL YOU! THERE IS NOTHING TO BE WORRIED ABOUT! NOTHING!

I'm from the govornment, I'm here to help you!

There is no reason to fear anything in the US.....There is a WHOLE OCEAN between us and DANGER!

Go back to sleep!

Sleep. Dream of a world where LEOs are your biggest concern. It will all work out.

Trust me. I'm telling it to you. I'm on a messageboard. It's true.
Az_Redneck
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Posted: 5/12/2005 1:09:24 AM

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
I never said NORAD gave the evacuation order. That came from either the SS or Capitol Police (I assume)

NORAD knew exactly what kind of plane it was. The jets that were on its tail knew the tail numbers and reported them back to their base as soon as they intercepted the small plane. The pilot was escorted out of the no-fly zone (after the jet pilots dropped some flares as a warning) and he chose to turn back and go back into it. It was called a "paperclip" move. That's when the threat level was raised from yellow to orange and ultimately to red.

During that time, they had time to evacuate the government buildings, get the "important" people to the underground shelter and whisk away the VP...Now, you tell me they didn't know what size plane it was...You don't think NORAD can tell the difference between a jetliner and a single engine trainer?

Think again...




The jets didn't get an instant visual ID on the aircraft.

There are reasons you keep the VIPs under wraps. For instance, what happens if this is a coordinated attack? What if the BGs are flying a plane to get the SS to evacuate the VIPs and then the BGs attack the VIPs when they are out in the open and vulnerable?

Of course, you know what should have been done in your command center with perfect intel in Arizona.



Same intel as you get.... No command center. Just observations and comments so there's no reason for you to be condescending. Remember, these are things I saw that bothered me. I thought evacuating the buildings was the wrong thing to do. You don't, so let's leave it there. You're obviously more "in the know" than I am sitting in Virginia.

Lot's of "what if's" in your statement. We can speculate all day long.... I understand why VIP's are rounded up and sent to the basement. But, do you realize the senators and representatives were also sent out to the street? Not VIP enough, but the Press Secretary Scott McClellan was? The VIP's WERE out in the open...Many were making statements from the street.

So, if you know more, please enlighten me...
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Grivo_Mak
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Posted: 5/12/2005 4:17:24 AM
The bottom line is, if they won't shoot down a Cessna with 1 or 2 idiots in it that's only three mile away from the W house, what do you think they will do with a 767.

Ponder this.
A 767 takes off from a regional airport and is hijacked shortly after take off. No distress button is activated or call made. The tango pilot advises the tower that he is having hydraulic problems and is losing altitude. He then accelerates and puts the plane on the deck. Depending on the distance involved a plane at low altitude and high speed would impact before they could say the word evacuation.
A Cessna traveling at 100mph was only 3 miles out. That gives you roughly one minute to do something. Now imagine the same scenario except the plane is traveling 400+mph.

Very scary.
dport
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Posted: 5/12/2005 7:04:45 AM

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
Same intel as you get.... No command center. Just observations and comments so there's no reason for you to be condescending. Remember, these are things I saw that bothered me. I thought evacuating the buildings was the wrong thing to do. You don't, so let's leave it there. You're obviously more "in the know" than I am sitting in Virginia.

Lot's of "what if's" in your statement. We can speculate all day long.... I understand why VIP's are rounded up and sent to the basement. But, do you realize the senators and representatives were also sent out to the street? Not VIP enough, but the Press Secretary Scott McClellan was? The VIP's WERE out in the open...Many were making statements from the street.

So, if you know more, please enlighten me...



There are many assumptions on your part.

I'm not there either, but I can, with a little bit of logic, get the jist of what the security forces in and around DC were thinking.

Senators and Congresscritters are NOT VIPs in the executive protection field. The theory behind it is there are alot of them and are easily replaced by their home state. That's why the President has SS agents and those in the legislative branch do not. IIRC Newt had to hire his own security because he didn't rate it.

One thing to remember, in a 9/11 style attack an evacutated mob can move and get out of harms why. Sure you run the risk of trampling people, but at least you don't have thousands of people sitting in a building waiting for the inevitable to happen.
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dport
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Posted: 5/12/2005 7:06:10 AM

Originally Posted By Grivo_Mak:
The bottom line is, if they won't shoot down a Cessna with 1 or 2 idiots in it that's only three mile away from the W house, what do you think they will do with a 767.

Ponder this.
A 767 takes off from a regional airport and is hijacked shortly after take off. No distress button is activated or call made. The tango pilot advises the tower that he is having hydraulic problems and is losing altitude. He then accelerates and puts the plane on the deck. Depending on the distance involved a plane at low altitude and high speed would impact before they could say the word evacuation.
A Cessna traveling at 100mph was only 3 miles out. That gives you roughly one minute to do something. Now imagine the same scenario except the plane is traveling 400+mph.

Very scary.



I imagine gen av is given a little more slack than comm air since comm air has professional pilots who are not as likely to make navigational errors. That and the time/distance point you brought up.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 8:00:49 AM
[Last Edit: 5/12/2005 8:04:00 AM by H46Driver]
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CavVet
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Posted: 5/12/2005 8:28:58 AM
I was kind of sad that desapite everything, our .gov was running down the street like a bunch of scared kids.

I am saddened that the touchy feely bullshit and even after 9/11 there are no shootdowns on strays.

I am shocked he wont even get charged. Can we starta new game with no consequences? He should be grateful for charges and not being a splat in Chevy Chase somewhere.

I trust we have duck hunters on the rooftops that can and will do what is needed to protect. Remember This we'll defend.?
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wganz
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Posted: 5/12/2005 10:39:38 AM

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.



You do know a "suitcase nuke" is not the size or weight of a suitcase, right?



The 0.5kt ones were ~95 pounds circa 1978.

wganz

Training and Trigger Time are more important than chasing after the 'Holy Grail' of hardware.
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go3
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Posted: 5/12/2005 10:49:49 AM
Everytime I hear "suitcase nuke" I cringe. God, there are alot worse things that can and probably will be used.

Hypotherically, does anyone here really expect planes to be used as weapons again? I don't.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 12:19:46 PM

Originally Posted By go3:
Everytime I hear "suitcase nuke" I cringe. God, there are alot worse things that can and probably will be used.

Hypotherically, does anyone here really expect planes to be used as weapons again? I don't.


See my previuos post.

CW
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Posted: 5/12/2005 1:06:54 PM
If the evac was an honest to goodness, best the .gov could come up with event (rather than a relatively harmless "test" or worse, a PR stunt to keep us alert) then I don't think anyone need worry about a tyranny or marshal law!

I'm a firm believer in being engaged and involved politically so as to avoid a tyranny of the few involved over the vast majority who don't care until something affects them directly... but what experience I do have of the small political junkie class, is that apart from some pretty hilarious visions of granduer they seem to all cultivate of themselves and their importance, most aren't the types who would risk their "lives, liberty, and sacred honor" by staging a coup or declaring martial law.

Not saying they won't and don't hope to incrementally increase their own budget and authority - as a way of padding their salaries and egos, but I don't think they're a) coordinated enough and b) smart enough and c) brave enough to actually be plotting for a "People's Republik da Amerika"

From a survival perspective though, I wouldn't doubt that the top most eschelon of government have spent billions on assuring their physical survival (and comfort) in the event of a TEOTWAWKI SHTF.

The rest of us (individually and perhaps as business comunities) are on our own as to preparing for the worst. This is probably as it should be, because it they were in charge, we'd all get expense and largely useless or defective stuff.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 1:37:05 PM

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.



You do know a "suitcase nuke" is not the size or weight of a suitcase, right?



The 0.5kt ones were ~95 pounds circa 1978.

wganz




Would that be with or without the radiation shields, without which you'd die trying to cart it around?
dport
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Posted: 5/12/2005 1:41:04 PM

Originally Posted By H46Driver:
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Tease.
"Ships are prisons for overachievers."

"I swear, put a SWO and a Marine in charge and they will work all night until work is done."
H46Driver
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Posted: 5/12/2005 1:54:13 PM

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
Lot's of "what if's" in your statement. We can speculate all day long.... I understand why VIP's are rounded up and sent to the basement. But, do you realize the senators and representatives were also sent out to the street? Not VIP enough, but the Press Secretary Scott McClellan was? The VIP's WERE out in the open...Many were making statements from the street.

So, if you know more, please enlighten me...



Have you considered this:

1.) VP Cheney was evacuated via motorcade. He left the building. The First Lady and Nancy Reagan stayed. Maybe they stayed because the SS decided that Nancy couldn't hightail it to an evac vehicle quickly enough to escape the potential threat. McClellan, I am sure, would only be evacuated if he was in the immediate presence of POTUS (who was at Camp David mountain biking). IOW, the highest value targets in the White House capable of leaving did just that.

2.) The White House apparently has a relatively secure underground facility. Does the capitol building? After all, that is where the congressmen were. I don't know. If there was a secure area at the capitol, it would have to be pretty huge to accomodate all 535 of them, plus staffers. Most probably wouldn't utilize it because it would look bad to abandon their staffers (who would not have access).

Now my head hurts from beating it against this wall so I am going to stop. Boy will that feel good.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 2:14:54 PM

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.



You do know a "suitcase nuke" is not the size or weight of a suitcase, right?



The 0.5kt ones were ~95 pounds circa 1978.

wganz




Would that be with or without the radiation shields, without which you'd die trying to cart it around?



Why would you need radiation shields? I was under the impression that weaponized nuclear material doesn't emit a whole lot of radiation. At least, not until detonated.
arowneragain
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Posted: 5/12/2005 2:20:44 PM
<---leans strongly towards the idea of shooting down any potential threat, the instant it becomes a potential threat.

I've probably said too much already - I'll leave this space blank.

wganz
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Posted: 5/12/2005 3:55:25 PM

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
While I'm no fan of this nonsense, and I think our government is nearing closer and closer to total tyranny - I'm going to defend them on this one.

Even though it was a little plane, what if it was a little plane with one of those missing suitcase nukes?

Set it off at a reasonable altitude and you'll have far better effects than on the deck.



You do know a "suitcase nuke" is not the size or weight of a suitcase, right?



The 0.5kt ones were ~95 pounds circa 1978.

wganz




Would that be with or without the radiation shields, without which you'd die trying to cart it around?



Radiation shields were not necessary with ADMs or the 155mm. The 155mm M454 was in a box affectionately called a 'coffin' that could be carried by 4 men or two 13B's. The ADMs(B54s) were designed to be carried as a back pack.



Any other questions?
Training and Trigger Time are more important than chasing after the 'Holy Grail' of hardware.
Remember Mark Wilson && Tyler, Texas.
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Posted: 5/12/2005 6:04:20 PM
[Last Edit: 5/12/2005 6:04:56 PM by rara1141]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
WARNING ALERT LEVEL HAS BEEN RAISED TO OFF WHITE

ALL EMPLOYEES AND VISITORS ARE ADVISED TO PANIC AT WILL



forget about the alert, we are out of coffee and donuts !!!
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