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Posted: 7/4/2001 8:19:28 AM EDT
Currently I'm using a H&K USP.45 Tactical with a surefire 6V light as my duty weapons. I am considering a couple of other options, either: A) HK Mark23 with Insight Tech. LAM B) ParaOrdinance P14 LDA limited C) Springfield TRP Operator with surefire D) Other custom 1911 models, any suggestions? E) Sig220 Any experience with these firearms? What would you choose and why? I would really want to go with choice A, but that is VERY cost prohibitive, so I might have to settle for the other options. BTW, I need to stick with a .45ACP to go along with the HK USC in .45 that I keep as a trunk gun, so I'm not considering any other calibers right now.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 8:27:16 AM EDT
I would use a HK mark23 socomm pistol with suppressor. then for a long arm i would use a M16 M4 with a M203 attachment and/or Shotgun mount this way you would be ready for anything.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 8:30:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MG_ME: I would use a HK mark23 socomm pistol with suppressor. then for a long arm i would use a M16 M4 with a M203 attachment and/or Shotgun mount this way you would be ready for anything.
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I WISH!!! Let's be serious though! No MGs, AOW, suppressors or DDs. What do you think of my options?
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 8:50:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 8:47:31 AM EDT by TEREK]
I carry a USP TAC and love it, the only other 45 I would consider would be a SprgArmory TRP. My old Springfield M1911 was awesome, wish I still had it. I carry the TACTICAL so I can shoot some very hot 45's but would not shoot the same loads through a 1911 so consider that. Maybe you should consider some pistols in 357SIG TAC-GIRL. Alot of penetration, alot of Foot pounds (alot more than the 45), and they expand very nicely! Right now I carry a USP Compact in 357 SIG for concealed carry but am about to switch over to a SIG PRO, I shot one the other day and was very very impresssed. TEREK
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 9:21:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 10:34:16 AM EDT by Wadman]
Why are you considering a change? Is there something particularly bothersome with the HK? It can't be size because your current HK is already large and your #1 choice is the same size. Trunk gun... Hopefully you don't leave in there for extended periods. Edited: same size as in grip size.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 9:24:19 AM EDT
Just curious, Why the switch??
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 9:31:30 AM EDT
MG_ME, she did not ask about long arms. TEREK, she said she was staying with .45 and gave her reasons. Do y'all read the posts? TAC-GIRL, I recommend the Sig P220. I have never had a failure and it is very accurate.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 9:45:50 AM EDT
"BTW, I need to stick with a .45ACP to go along with the HK USC in .45 that I keep as a trunk gun, so I'm not considering any other calibers right now." TACGURL "Maybe you should consider some pistols in 357SIG TAC-GIRL" TEREK I read the Post, I ovbiously didnt care, I wanted to make my point. I suggested considering another cal and gave my supporting reasons. AND BTW> I DID MAKE MY 2nd 45 recomendation for her right off the bat sticking to the topic at hand!!!!!!!! Its not my fault if people are so hung up on the 45 that they cant consider a better caliber.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 9:46:59 AM EDT
TAC-GIRL I currently use USP45s on duty also. I use the USP45c off duty. I believe the SOCOM-Mark 23 for a duty weapon would be very heavy. This is a BIG (the grip area is huge), heavy weapon for daily carry! For SWAT operations it is great, but for every day use...NO! SIg P-220 is very nice and they should be releasing the Stainless model very shortly. I carried two of these (blued) for years until the appearance of the USP. THe problem I can see with the conversion to the Sig, is there is no safety and thus you may try to take the safety off when it does not eveb exist (I had this problem going from a 1911 to the SIg).It took allot of practice.... Addionally, if someone would possibly ever get the weapon from you--bang bang-- where if they do not know how to operate a manual safety--gives you time.. Because the operation of the 1911 style weapons are similar to the USP this would be my choice. Les Baer makes some very nice ones--I believe of better quality than the Para or Springfield. Springfield would however be a choice over the Para. All Para has going for it is extra rounds and you can always put an extra clip or two in a pocket, or ankle Mag holder. WHatever your decision attempt to shoot and handle each weapon prior to your choice. http://www.lesbaer.com
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:06:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 10:05:42 AM EDT by LARRYG]
I read the Post, I ovbiously didnt care, I wanted to make my point. I suggested considering another cal and gave my supporting reasons. AND BTW> I DID MAKE MY 2nd 45 recomendation for her right off the bat sticking to the topic at hand!!!!!!!! Its not my fault if people are so hung up on the 45 that they cant consider a better caliber.
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First, YOU didn't care and wanted to make YOUR point, to hell with HER question. Okay, it's all about you and excuse the rest of us for being in your world. Second, excuse us for being 'hung up' on .45 and won't consider a 'better caliber'. Besides, who says it is a better caliber, you? There have been plenty of other rounds that others claim to be better than a .45 but the facts have not borne that out.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:26:28 AM EDT
Unless you need a different platform, why not get a second firearm of the same type? It alleviates the need for different support equipment, i.e., holsters, mags, etc. Operational characteristics and muscle memory/training remain ingrained with this approach, too. Have fun shopping...!
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:34:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TAC-GIRL: Currently I'm using a H&K USP.45 Tactical with a surefire 6V light as my duty weapons. I am considering a couple of other options, either: A) HK Mark23 with Insight Tech. LAM B) ParaOrdinance P14 LDA limited C) Springfield TRP Operator with surefire D) Other custom 1911 models, any suggestions? E) Sig220 Any experience with these firearms? What would you choose and why? I would really want to go with choice A, but that is VERY cost prohibitive, so I might have to settle for the other options. BTW, I need to stick with a .45ACP to go along with the HK USC in .45 that I keep as a trunk gun, so I'm not considering any other calibers right now.
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Damn, Girl...what agency do you work for that allows that much latitude on duty weapon selection? DA or SA...custom models of the 1911...a $2500.0 plus duty pistol? Don't get me wrong, this is not a flame, just curious. Either a VERY progressive agency or very permissive in today's liability atmosphere.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:41:48 AM EDT
Beachboy, interesting observation. Also as an average civilian asking a question; are duty weapons usually carried with attachments? (lasers, Surefires, etc.)
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 11:00:19 AM EDT
Stat with what you like, but don't spend too much. I used to carry a 1500.00 custom Colt as a duty weapon. The first time it bounces off the asphalt you'll gasp, and say why didn't I stay with something cheaper or better yet something issued. The dept. I'm with now issues and requires a G-22. Not my choice but it's free. And with the issued 3 1/2 trigger connector it's not bad.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 11:07:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wadman: Beachboy, interesting observation. Also as an average civilian asking a question; are duty weapons usually carried with attachments? (lasers, Surefires, etc.)
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Wadman - I have carried a duty weapon with a laser, Lasergrips actually, on my primary and also on my back-up. Both were departmentally approved. My S.W.A.T. long gun has both a light (Surefire) and a Laser aiming module (also Surefire). But not many departments today allow attachments that are not either a) department issue; b) department approved; c) or that interfer with department issued equipment (i.e.- mounted light, requiring non-issue holster).
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 11:08:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 11:06:43 AM EDT by ParaPyroPig]
Originally Posted By Wadman: Also as an average civilian asking a question; are duty weapons usually carried with attachments? (lasers, Surefires, etc.)
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I carry my Glock 22 with ITI M3 attached in a Safariland #6280. TAC-GIRL: Boldly assuming that you are serious (no reason not to think you are), and that your agency allows it, AND YOU HAVE ENORMOUS HANDS, consider the Mk23, BUT, with .45 Super ammo - that's what the NAVSPECWAR boys are using for "duty" ammo, and the 230grn HydraShok for "canned" use. FWIW... P3[pyro][^]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 12:26:09 PM EDT
Why don't you just get another USP Tactical and put it on your other hip and be Lara Croft. Is it just me or does anyone else think this is BS?
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 12:54:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 1:21:57 PM EDT
Although I am a diehard Glock fan, in my opinion you can't really "upgrade" from a H&K USP45 Tactical (except maybe with a USP SOCOM/MK23). The only downside I have ever felt the USP45 Tac has is the large grip size, but if you're keeping the USP45C, that is obviously not an issue. The only other .45 ACP pistol that I think is competitive from a weapon (not range/target gun) point of view with the USP45 is a Glock 21. The Glock 21 also has a huge grip size though. I think it would be unwise to downgrade from a USP45 Tactical, which I consider one of the best fighting handguns made....yes, even slightly better than my Glock 17 [;)] Are you sure this isn't a BS post?
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 1:23:09 PM EDT
AS a 1911 lover, i have to say 1...sig 220.......2..usp.....i`ve thought about it a lot, and if i had to carry in my work, that would be it.........[smoke]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 1:38:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jadams951: Why don't you just get another USP Tactical and put it on your other hip and be Lara Croft. Is it just me or does anyone else think this is BS?
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I tried that thread already, but some guy named HangFire got mad at me... I was only trying it at the range for fun, and I thought I would share it will you folks, but some not-so-nice members torn me a new corn-hole for that idea.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 1:42:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 1:49:15 PM EDT by TAC-GIRL]
Originally Posted By TEREK: Maybe you should consider some pistols in 357SIG TAC-GIRL. Alot of penetration, alot of Foot pounds (alot more than the 45), and they expand very nicely! Right now I carry a USP Compact in 357 SIG for concealed carry but am about to switch over to a SIG PRO, I shot one the other day and was very very impresssed. TEREK
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Thank you for the suggesting I prefer something that is compatible with the USC, caliber wise. So until Murray Urbach desides to convert my MP5 SBR into a .357, I'll stick to the USC![;)] If my employeer reconsiders, and allows us to carry long guns in rifle calibers, I will definitely ditch the USC, and maybe then I will consider a caliber change, but only after much research. I take that back, I don't think I will EVER ditch the .45 as my primary handgun! As far as the .357 SIG, I have nothing bad to say about it, but I prefer to use a caliber that has been battle-tested. Or at the very least, a caliber that I have plenty of experience with, before I take it into the streets. Also, I was raised on my fathers 1911, so I have a hard time switching away from the .45 ACP.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 1:50:24 PM EDT
As far as why I'm making the switch: I'm not planning to 'upgrade', because as several members mentioned, the USP Tac. is one of the best handguns IMHO. But I shoot A LOT, and I feel as if I have put enough rounds through my Tactical, that I would feel a bit more comfortable with a new firearm. I could buy a new Tactical, but since I don't have too much cash to throw around, I would like to transition to another quality handgun, and the Tact. can remain in my collection as a shooter. As BusMaster007 mentioned, a handgun built on the same operating platform would be a big plus during the transition. That is why I considered the Mk23, despite the hefty pricetag (and weight). I feel that the USP45F is a fine handgun, but I would rather not downgrade from my Tac.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 1:57:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 2:15:12 PM EDT
I carry a P220 for tactical stuff and the only problem is that it runs dry fast. SIG announced a while back that they were coming out with a high capacity .45. I think it was supposed to be called the P221. I haven't heard anything about it lately, but it might be worth the wait.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 2:18:31 PM EDT
Something smells here... it almost reminds me of late season wild troll. no offense, and I'm not trying to be sexist, but I dont think I have ever met a female who could (or would want to) use a socom for a duty weapon. Or any male for that matter !! I'ts not that the MK23 isnt a great weapon, but it certainly is not suited for regular duty carry. It was designed as a OFFENSIVE weapon. Sorry but something still smells about this thread. Maybe I should say "McSmells"..... just a hunch, I could be wrong. [x]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 2:30:39 PM EDT
Jenni - Who is that employer?
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 2:35:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Butkus 51: Something smells here... it almost reminds me of late season wild troll. no offense, and I'm not trying to be sexist, but I dont think I have ever met a female who could (or would want to) use a socom for a duty weapon. Or any male for that matter !! I'ts not that the MK23 isnt a great weapon, but it certainly is not suited for regular duty carry. It was designed as a OFFENSIVE weapon. Sorry but something still smells about this thread. Maybe I should say "McSmells"..... just a hunch, I could be wrong. [x]
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AHHH...but it is still so EDUCATIONAL!.......[spank]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 3:23:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Butkus 51: Something smells here... Sorry but something still smells about this thread. Maybe I should say "McSmells"..... just a hunch, I could be wrong. [x]
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SOS. That smell is no smell its STINK! "CORNHOLE" a word I have never heard used by a woman in my lifetime.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 3:30:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: SOS. That smell is no smell its STINK! "CORNHOLE" a word I have never heard used by a woman in my lifetime.
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Yeah, but when is the last time a women talked to you??? That's what I thought...[smoke]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 4:55:01 PM EDT
It's smelling worse !!!!! [}:D]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:13:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 10:12:07 PM EDT by Wadman]
Is this a troll or bait type thread? Huh, it's not like no one's ever done that on this forum before. But I'll leave that determination to the AR15.com veterans. Anyway..... I'm still not quite understanding something about the weapon switch. The USP Tactical is well used. Replacing it with another one isn't an option because of limited funds but a MK23 is the first choice. Does a MK23 cost less than a Tactical? Also as Beachboy pointed out, the employer allows quite a bit of latitude with weapon selection. Isn't a duty weapon supplied or is it just unsuitable? As far as hand size, I've met a few women with really long fingers. Perhaps TAC-GIRL is Susan Anton height with a handspread bigger than my head.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:36:05 PM EDT
I can't believe we are doing this again.jadams951 actually suggested to TAC-GIRL that she should get another USP Tactical and go Lara Croft style, BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No flame intended, this is just gonna get sucky, TAC-Girl and Hangfire are gonna end up in a closet makin out, we are all gonna laugh....
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:01:12 AM EDT
TAC- I can honestly recommend, if ANYTHING like its .40 counterpart, the Sig P220. I like the Sig grip, and I feel that it would be much more tuned to the size of female hands than a Glock. As a novice pistol shooter by all means of the word, I have had a few opportunities to fire a P226 at 25M, and have put [b]sub-MOA[/b] holes on more than one occassion with enough patience. I don't know if the sights were upgraded (if that's even possible) or what, but as an inexperienced handgun person, I'd have to say it HAD to be the gun! If the SigP2xx (? - .45ACP) doesn't have the right feel for you, try their compact series of S.S. pistols. I think they're called P240's, you'd have to do some research. Anybody have experience with compact Sig's, because I might make that my carry weapon one day if it's half as wonderful as what I've fired! [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:14:35 AM EDT
I hear ya Butkus, I was thinking the same thing, not to mention the price tag on a Mark 23...I'd love to own one but woul'd never consider it as a LE use weapon. To big, I've always preferred the Glock 10mm anyway, got one of them and a .45... And for all the Springfield 1911 guys, try a Kimber, hold one of each at the same time, shake them both, work both of thier actions, you will notice a huge difference, and even bigger one compareing a Colt 1911 to a Kimber. [pistol]
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:29:22 AM EDT
Isn't it true that if you went with the Mark 23 and LAM, you would need a thigh rig similar to the Blackhawk and Eagle rigs? I'm not a LEO, but this doesn't sound like duty wear to me (maybe swat). Also, that would be a heavy combination for a man, let alone a woman. Unless you're 6' tall and weigh 180 lbs with hands like a man, I don't see how it would be a good system for you. Hmm... I think I smell something rotting in the trash can as well. If I'm wrong, I apologize for being sexist. :)
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 4:25:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jewbroni: As a novice pistol shooter by all means of the word, I have had a few opportunities to fire a P226 at 25M, and have put [b]sub-MOA[/b] holes on more than one occassion with enough patience
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Jewbroni, I hope you meant to write [b]sub-inch[/b] groups, because at 25 meters a minute of angle equals about 0.25". Just FYI...
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 6:23:18 AM EDT
[size=6]FADE TO BLACK[/size=6]
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 6:51:12 AM EDT
Before the flames soar, maybe we should wait for TAC-GIRL to provide additional information. Some legitimate questions have been asked. If the answers aren't forthcoming in a timely fashion, then maybe you can crank up the heat.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 7:49:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TEREK: Maybe you should consider some pistols in 357SIG TAC-GIRL. Alot of penetration, alot of Foot pounds (alot more than the 45), and they expand very nicely! Right now I carry a USP Compact in 357 SIG for concealed carry but am about to switch over to a SIG PRO, I shot one the other day and was very very impresssed. TEREK
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I do not carry a gun professionally, but I was at my local indoor range awhile back, and someone one was shooting a 357Sig chambered gun, and man was it loud. It sounded like a 357 Rem mag.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 8:59:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Matt VDW:
Originally Posted By Jewbroni: As a novice pistol shooter by all means of the word, I have had a few opportunities to fire a P226 at 25M, and have put [b]sub-MOA[/b] holes on more than one occassion with enough patience
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Jewbroni, I hope you meant to write [b]sub-inch[/b] groups, because at 25 meters a minute of angle equals about 0.25". Just FYI...
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Last time I checked, Sub-MOA is what I said. I know my facts [;-)] [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 9:17:19 AM EDT
You guys can sometimes be so typical. Just last month one of my friends who works for an armored car company was debating which pistol to go with. I suggested the .45 H&K, but the grip was just too big for her, so she went with a Sig .40. She also likes the penetration of the .40 over the .45
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 10:04:39 AM EDT
Jewbroni, if you were firing sub-MOA groups at 25m with a Sig P226, that would mean that you were somehow managing to squeeze all your shots through a hole that was smaller than the caliber of gun you were firing.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 10:32:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Arc Angel: Jewbroni, if you were firing sub-MOA groups at 25m with a Sig P226, that would mean that you were somehow managing to squeeze all your shots through a hole that was smaller than the caliber of gun you were firing.
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Maybe he was using poetic license to impress TG.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 10:53:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE:
Originally Posted By Arc Angel: Jewbroni, if you were firing sub-MOA groups at 25m with a Sig P226, that would mean that you were somehow managing to squeeze all your shots through a hole that was smaller than the caliber of gun you were firing.
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Maybe he was using poetic license to impress TG.
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Maybe he handloaded some expanding bullets upside-down so they shrank when they hit the target. [:o)]
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 12:51:40 PM EDT
Here's a link for a quick review of the Springfield Operator: http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?topic=1380&forum=27&7 Based on your criterion this would be my choice. But I'll admit I have a bias towards 1911's. If you lean towards a 1911 pistol you might also consider a Les Baer Monolith.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:09:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wadman: I'm still not quite understanding something about the weapon switch. The USP Tactical is well used. Replacing it with another one isn't an option because of limited funds but a MK23 is the first choice. Does a MK23 cost less than a Tactical?
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Well, I can afford the Mk23 if I cut a few corners, but you missed my point on not buying a second Tac. I'm a shooter and a collector, so I would rather buy a new dependable handgun to replace my duty arm, and add the tac. to the collection as a shooter. Why am I willing to spend big bucks on the MK23, well it is has the same handling characteristics, so there will be little to no training time for the switch. Plus with a change of floorplates, I should be able to use my tac. hicaps in the MK23.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:12:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Beachboy: Jenni - Who is that employer?
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I'd rather not discuss that in front of unfriendlies like HangFire, but I will tell you this much, my employer is not a state, county or city. In case that is what you were thinkin.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:32:15 PM EDT
HMMMM, not local or state...... maybe, Pinkerton, A.D.T. or Brinks ???? [x]
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:46:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2001 1:54:53 PM EDT by Wadman]
Sounds like you've made good arguments towards getting a MK23 if minimal transition time and familiarity are priorities. The statement that you don't work for a state, county, or city agency and the fact that you're given this much latitude in sidearm selection would seem to rule out civilian peace officer roles or Federal investigative type agencies. Whoever you work for doesn't require discreet carry or lots of walking around. And they don't pay for or provide a sidearm.
Link Posted: 7/5/2001 1:51:59 PM EDT
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