Treetop

I've hit milk jugs repeatedly at 100 yds with a .357, but I don't know if I could do it quickly in the face of full-auto fire.

Personally, I think the police did the best job they could with what they had at the time. First officers on the scene seemed to be trying to lay down suppressive fire with 9mm and shotguns while taking cover and waiting for better armed backup to arrive. I would not have played the hero and charged two full-auto wielding bad guys with my 92F.  

Treetop; 455SD: If you can hit milk jugs at 100 yds with a pistol you are far better than average marksmen,

I still stand by my post listing some of the factors that could make hitting the "target" more difficult. I'm not sure they there were not officers trying to hit the subjects in the manner you describe. It probably took a little bit to realize that their fire on the BG's was hitting and was ineffective. I would think that if you only have handguns and shotguns available yuo do what you can to evacuate the wounded(so the BG's don't walk up and execute them) and you get the shotguns into action. Also I think these guys split up relativly quickly. So if you were "lining up a shot" I think you would have to be concerned that you don't ge hit from behind.....

NO AR-;(

Milk jugs with a handgun off a bench at 100 yds isn't that hard if you practice. However it is a difficult shot to line up quickly. I agree that a head shot on a moving target that is rapidly returning fire would be challenging at best. Unless you're like Mel Gibson--Hell I bet Arnie could do it one-handed.

In referrence to the HK rifle used, if one looks at the magazine, it was not a HK91 but at HK93(or more correctly a HK33 due to the conversion). This is essentially the same rifle chambered in .223.

All you armchair warriors forgot a few things.  Virtually no one shoots as well under life-threatening pressure as they do at the range.  The bad guys were shooting full auto at tasrgets 100 to 200 yards away.  Phillips even tried to hose Bob Tur in the Channel 9 News copter with the Type 56.  The slant range from the shooter to Bob was over 2500 feet.  Bit long for an AK.

The SWAT guys were doing their daily PT at the academy when the call came out.  They grabbed their trash and headed for the scene rather than adjourning their PT session to the locker room for a shower and a change of clothes before responding.

To the "moron" that suggested ramming the TWO vehicles, the Chevy Lumina and the full-sized pickup, to knock the bad guy in between them on his butt:  That Caprice SWAT car had airbags.  Ramming would pop them, filling the car with powder from the bags and making it difficult to get out of the front seats and preventing effective use of their weapons.  The speed required to knock Bad Boy Emil down AFTER moving both shielding vehicles, say maybe 50 mph oe so, would likely have rendered all the officers in the SWAT car hors de combat as none were wearing seatbelts.  On top of that, there would have been no guarantee that they would have moved the car enough to do Emil in either.  

Also, a set of doubles full of rocks accellerates very slowly from a stop. My 75 year old mother could easily get out of the way.

At least one of the bad guys took .223 hit(s).  They found the spent bullets in the body armor.

No good guys died.  Both bad guys died at the scene.  Not a happy event, but the outcome was satisfactory.

Armchair quarterbacking and speculation from those without either training and experience aside, the officers on scene made the best of a bad situation, engaged and overcame.  Hats off to them.

Well for a second I was wondering, I had to read it a second time to see "off a bench". I shoot 2-3 times a month, free standing. I think it would be difficult to "milk jug" at 100 free standing.

What MOA accuracy is a Berreta 92 capable of? I know it would be a very do-able shot with a 9mm carbine.

I don't like 9mm carbines, the only real advantage I think the have is the sights.............

I have fired some Colt AR style 9mm's and to me they kick more than the .223's. If you get and AR why not get the real deal.

Ok, everyone ease up a bit.

Hitting a person with a vehicle is deadly force and could be justified under some circumstances. Police are reluctant to use that tactic for a variety of reasons inclluding the fact the haven't been trained to do it.

I believe he is talking about hitting the suspect when they initially arrive on scene, I don't think ther was anything between the suspect and the SWAT Caprice.

With Denny he is saying that Denny probably should have kept the doors locked and kept moving at 5 mph until he was out of the crowd.

I haven't been under fire, I think I have a grasp of what the issues of stress are tho'

All the shoulda, coulda, woulda's from people are to be measured against the fact that the are judging other from the cold comfort of their couches. There are those who do and those who review. Often times it is much easier to say what someone did wrong even if you have no capability to do what they did. Think about how people talk about pro-athletes..."he should've, If that had been me.." Yeah that's why they are reviewing the game from a bar stool. Same thing here.

I've been under fire, and I wasn't talking about shooting from a bench.

I was merely remarking that the officers involved put on a pathetic show. The outcome could have been lots worse if B&B hadn't had arms for the officers to "comandeer".
What's the point of continuous body shots when a head shot is only a foot higher? The officers were hitting center mass. Their aim wasn't off, they were just aiming for the wrong parts.
Letting BGs continue to fire just because a head shot is "un-PC" is retarded in my opinion.
So is showing up for a rifle fight armed with a pistol.

If you are talking about an auto pistol making headshot at 100 yards you are in a fantasy land.



No police officers or citizens were killed, over 1000 rounds fired by the BG's. Yeah that is awful. WRITE THIS DOWN: the weapons from the gun shop, B&B, WERE NOT USED in this incident by the time the officers got them the fight was over.



Let's see, suppressive fire, maybe they were trying to hit headhots but the movement of the targets were keeping them from hitting. Next time you go to a range get 100 hards from a 4"x4" piece of paper, have someone else set it up, on the command of go turn, acquire the target and fire. Oh and just to make it real have the person who set it up shooting at you with a paintball gun. Happy shooting.



Well I'm sure they weren't thinking PC. How they are equipped is a matter of public policey and everytime a major PD goes to a more powerful weapon the "t-f-b" crowd here throws a fit and the MMM's do to I'm sure. Often times the people making weaponry choices at LEA's are the people that are least likely to ever "need" a weapon.

I have had the opetunity to look straight down the loaded barrel of a rifle and a handgun before and neither is a very soothing prospect trust me you aren't quite still and calm and marksman like when you are seeing muzzle. not imagine it is spewing several hundred bullets a minute. see how calm you are then. trust me I have been in some pretty nasty situations but this is hard to compare to. however I still think that the cops did a bad job in not expecting the possibility of somthing like this happening and having their heads up their butts pretending it's a nice world out there, we don't need rifle or even slugs. why must we always learn the hard way

The RPM for an AK is 600rpm, just to let you know.

I would have run up and kicked them in the nuts, thusly debilitating them. Ya, that's what I would have done and it would have worked!

The police did fire at them, police are generally poor shots, the police were outgunned. The armchair heroism is great but we weren't there so we didn't get a chance to try our therorys.

Only a few blocks away? You didn't hear the shots or were informed in some way? Wow! I guess so when at the end people were driving past the guy trying to get away? 400 cops, couldn't they set up a perimeter? Oops, more hindsight.

The reason why his AK jammed was because it took a bullet to the reciever, I saw another show about it and it showed the gun and it had a huge dent and hole in the reciever from a gunshot.

Fantasy Land is cool. I guess I've been here for a few years, since it was in 1998 that I started firing at 1 gallon milkjugs OFFHAND, at 100 yards. I said repeatedly, I didn't claim Every shot and I didn't claim an eyeball shot.
I claimed hitting milkjugs because that's what I do.



I said [b]The outcome [i]could have[/i] been lots worse[/b] and I stand by that. The whole fiasco was on live television making the entire Police force look like a bunch of sissies who couldn't handle 2 armed men.



My head is larger than 4X4 and most other people's are too. just grazing an ear would stun the assailant long enough to squeeze off a more controled shot.



I'll agree with you there, and I won't deny that policy sucks when it comes to these details.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but it seems I've hit a vein here.
I'm sure the officers did well considering what their options were. I just feel that their options should have been more open. Considering how many patrol cars were there, someone should've had a rifle. Especially taking into account the area they're working in, and possible scenarios.

Actually the way I found out was because I got a phone call the minute shooting started from a concerned friend across the street from the shootout. She wanted to make sure it wasn't ME behind the body armor.
I explained to her that that's not my style. [:)]

Well yes I think you have been trying to start an arguement. You certainly let a bunch of choice names fly describing people under fire.

I seem to recall something about Vietnam and when they broke down body counts versus ammo used the measured it in kill v. tons of ammo used. Statistically the police aren't great shooters, but compared to the military they are masters of weaponary.

You say at the end of your post the officers should have had more options, not that their performance was that bad. That is certainly different than the impression you made in your previous posts on this topic.

You're probably one of those guys who always has to be right.
So be it.


[:)]

A chinese type 56 is a SKS rifle, not an AK, they had AK-47's not SKSs, The police that took down the second BG pulled in at an angle to delfect the rounds, then the suspect was hit and fell to the ground then started shooting under the car to shoot the police, so 2 of the officers got down on the ground too and started shooting, then the guy gave up. The 7.62x39mm round doesnt penetrate to well at an angle, and .223 doesnt, I think the only rounds the can are high powered rifles meaning more powerful than 7.62x39s and .223s.

DID I EXPLAIN ENOUGH? [}:D]

[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1728267&a=13290109&p=51178310[/img]
Small Arms of the World

Carry'd one for a while
Semper Fi

sgb[sniper]

AK47  when you got to kill every mother fucker in the room[:P]   S.J.

From [u]Military Small Arms of the 20th Century[/u]. 7th edition, page 230.

Chinese Type 56 [i]Carbine[/i]. This was simply a direct copy of the Soviet Simonov [b]SKS[/b] carbine...

Chinese Type 56 [i]Rifle[/i]. ...Simply a Chinese-manufactured copy of the Kalashnikov [b]AK47[/b]...

Well, I got to see the LAPD's training film on the incident. BG#1 was not taken out with a sniper round. He was walking next to a semi truck, when he ran into a patrol officer behind a fence. You see BG1 duck down, then begin to walk towards the officer, being struck several times, dropping his pistol, and shooting himself. Well the officers 9mm struck him in the head at about the same instant according to the LAPD. #2 ducks down, and is hit in the lower leg/calf/feet, and bleeds to death. (29 hits, his family is suing the LAPD for letting him bleed to death)
The standard approved/issue at the time for LAPD was either an approved 9mm pistol. The shotgun usually an Ithica with buckshot. They were out gunned, and out ranged. SWAT only partially got there, the guys in the car that took out BG#2 were at the academy working out and were closer than the other responding teams which were caught in traffic.
The HK91A3 which had been converted to FA, was taken out by a round through the receiver, there were several Chinese AK's that had been converted, and a Bushmaster with a Beta C drum was what BG#2 had when he had his feet shot out from under him.
Since then, the S&W 4506 is authorized (SWAT issues tuned M1911A1's, and have from the beginning). Supervisors have M16A1's from the goverment program @$22.00 each-they bought 600, and converted them by changing out the selector to semi auto.
FYI, TLC had the best non-official video on a week or so ago. The official shows the actual rifles used, the first time I had actually seen a close up of the HK91/G3, and the AK's with the Romanian furniture.
The simple fact that no one was killed except the bad guys speaks for itself. Armchair commando's who haven't been there can spout off all sorts of bullshit about head shots with a 9mm-try it under heavy fire from 30-100 yards and see how well you do!
I have been shot at, and been shot. I am a pistol master/instructor/range master/armorer. I would be proud in the same circumstances to do as well as the LAPD did, and they are one of my least favorite organizations.  
To listen to the radio traffic at the time of the shooting, try www.snowcrest.net

There was a shooting at the Air Force base near Spokane Washington a few years ago. I can't remember what exactly the perp had done, I'm pretty sure that he had some sort of rifle and had shot some people.
Anyways, one of the Air Force gaurds rode his bike out to where the bad guy was and shot him in the head with an M9 at 50 yards.
I'm sure some one else remembers this.

should have just let the guys run out of ammo. they could'nt have had too much more.

Surfer, as I recall, they had about 3000 rounds left, so that was not an option. I read one earlier post on ramming with a patrol car. Apparently they have not seen the "colander effect" 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x51, and 5.56 have on your average Ford Crown Vic...
SteyrAug-It was a converted HK91, not a 93. Early rumor was the weapons had been bought from corrupt Mexican Federalies, but in the LAPD tape, they all were clearly modified FA's. (good job, not the usual crude conversions I have seen)

Stg44,
The cops stopped what, 30 feet in front of the bad guy and jumped out of the car and then proceeded to get pinned down.
They were already driving at the bad guy under fire. In the time it takes a 3200 pound car traveling at 60+ miles an hour to cover 30 feet I doubt that he would have gotten off enough rounds to kill the car.

the news guys would have had a field day if the officers ran the guy down on TV(live).

Shoowallager, I remember that shooting in the early '90s. The BG was in the process of getting a medical discharge (I think for psychiatric reasons) that he didn't agree with. So he decides to shoot up the hospital. I can't remember what he used, but he was shot on his way out by the bike-riding SP.

Its certainly been an interesting thread, even if I did start it myself.

I know that nobody is going to perform as well under fire as at the range. Still, isn't making those 200+ yard shots with a Sniper Quality Bolt Gun exactly what the SWAT / SNIPER guys get paid to do and train for?

I'll admit I don't know the exact ranges involved. The videos clearly show the BGs were not CONSTANTLY moving, there were times when they were not moving targets. And I don't think they could have withstood the impact of a .308 or .30-06 round in the head. I don't know about California but here in Virginia .30-06 bolt guns with scopes are a dime a dozen.

Are they ILLEGAL in California?

I have wondered why no one in, like an apartment across the street or something, didn't walk out onto the balcony, access the situation, and then start taking potshots at the badguys with a scoped deer rifle. Are there not that many armed people in California?

ECS: most police "sniper" shots are at less than 100 yards. That is due to a variety of reasons, use of force rules, need to hit a instantly disabling head shot etc. I think part of the point here is the BG's were heavily armed and moving. Most SWAT teams need 45 minutes or more to deploy, they count on patrol officers to contain the incident. That assumes that the bad guys are in one location and aren't shooting, you know they are sending out demands.........

455SD: Ok, there are more than a hundred cops involved in a shootout with BG's with auto weapons and you wanna poke your head out and start "taking pot-shots"?? Did you think about which team the cops might think you're on? Plus really most people hear auto weapons fire they are gonna do one of several things, it's a movie being filmed, gotta go check something in the basement, or gee I wonder if this is on tv..........

Hey, there were shots on the news of poeple looking out their balconies seeing what was going on. People are stupid---just look at some of the replies on this post---so I am suprised some idiot didn't start blasting away from his apartment.

I am not saying it is a good idea or that I would take such action but I'm suprised no one did.

As a side note when Charles Whitman started shooting from the tower in Austin he had the police outgunned and pinned down. Many JoeShmoes returned fire with thier deer rifles to give some sort of cover fire. Granted this was 40 years ago and different circumstances, but it does happen.

Clearfire,

The SWAT car stopped with the right front passenger officer about 30 feet away from Bad Boy Emil who was doing his best imitation of the Marines in Hue City sticking their M16s over the wall and sprayin' and prayin'.  He succeeded in blasting the windshield of his own stolen getaway car and not much else.  The RF passenger officer appeared to empty the mag on his M16 keeping BB Emil's head down while the other officers in his car bailed out and took offensive action.  Emil took either an M16 burst or a load of buckshot skipped off the pavement from his right.  It took him out of the fight and eventually killed him.

You also missed stg's point.  Cars don't stop rifle bullets very well.  Also, SWAT Car vs. BB Emil was not an option.  When they reached hum, BB Emil was behind the door of the pickup, between the pickup and his own getaway car and was both not readily identifiable as the bad guy, and protected by several tons of steel.  
The Bumper vs. Bad Guy option in these days of airbags is viable only if the Bad Guy is basically in the open or behind only light cover that will not activate the airbags on impact.

Treetop,

Milkjugs don't shoot back and a nick on the ear of an adrenalized person with endorphins kicking in would not even be noticed until later.

Also, there are limitations on what can be carried around in the average police car.  roughly 2/3rds of the trunk contains the everyday standard equipment and officer needs to do his job.  Add to that the SWAT-type gear you think everyone should have.  Outa room pretty quick.  Then make it a two man unit...  Then who's gonna pay for all that gear and the training required to use it?

Real life isn't like the movies.

I realize that.

I've also heard that the BGs were on muscle relaxers and pain killers.

I guess I was just frustrated for the officers involved when watching the scenario unfold on live TV, and couldn't imagine why certain things weren't done. It seemed (to me) like such an inefficient use of manpower. 100+ officers or something, and not a single rifle in the group.[?]
A headshot with a pistol seemed (to me) like the next logical alternative.

there is no NHPD, its LAPD area, just FYI

LAPD had there shotgun slugs taken away, dont know if it would of made a difference, and use FMJ 9mm ammo not HP.

the shoot out happened in mid-day (while most people are working), and was on the blvd, then started to move into the neighborhood where it ended quickly.
dont think there were too many people around who had a scoped bolt action rifle to take out the BGs, or even be able to get a shot off.

That's so insightful it is almost scary [bounce].

Part of this is my bad some off what I was commenting on was posted by clearfire not you, sorry.

I still think that the individual officers who responded to the incident, knowing that they would be facing machine gun firing armored BG's should be commended. To know that you are really outgunned and still go, shows more guts than most people have.

I see you keep saying that they should have had better weapons. Even on this pro gun RKBA site there are people that get worked up when the police have semi-auto long guns. It was an administrative, policy and tactics decision by uppity ups not to have rifles available.

The officers on scene may not have done things perfect, but they were working with a dynamic situation. Not all the info was good, accurate, or timely. They had to not only be concrned with BG's but making sure they didn't get into a crossfire situation or get "pinned" so that they didn't have escape routes.

I stand by my statement that a 100 yard headshot with a pistol is incredibly difficult to do "in combat" It is a combination of the ablilty of the shooter, the capabilities of the weapon and ammo, and the state of mind of the marksman. Not to mention that there would be no excuse for missing a 100 yard headsot and having that round hit a bystander.

I don't like AR-15 9mm carbines, get a real .223 if you want an AR-15, but they would have been useful in this incident a 100 yard headshot seems really do-able with a carbine.

455SD: cool name, had a 75 T/A with a 72 455.....wooo hoooo. I wasn't trying to pick too much at you. Most people gawk or ignore, they don't get involved.

I trained with a "target" shooter, really an incredible shot. He was interesting to watch, becuse every shot was controlled and looked just like the prior shot. Most of his targets had small ragged holes that ALL his bullets had gone into. Unfortunately when we did "comabt" shooting hi wasn't as good. He couldn't adapt to ID, acquire, and fire. The thing that really stuck out about him was when he was out of his "comfort zone" his shooting fell apart. When we did low light shooting, and held flashlights, he became so discombobulated he almost couldn't reload....

There is combat shooting and all other types of shooting. Combat exposes your weaknesses very quickly.