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Posted: 6/26/2001 9:07:42 AM EDT
[url]www.pioneerplanet.com/news/mtc_docs/72808.htm[/url] Deputies at wrong house kill family's dog Gwennie, a Labrador retriever owned by the Hatch family of St. Paul, cuddles up to Kelley Hatch, who is now 6, in a family photo. GLORIA RODRIGUEZ STAFF WRITER A family dog was shot to death in St. Paul's Frogtown neighborhood on Saturday morning by a Ramsey County sheriff's deputy when he and four other deputies tried to serve a warrant -- at the wrong house. The deputies, who were looking for a man accused of forging a $3,000 check, reportedly felt threatened by the black Labrador retriever. When they entered Charley and Beth Hatch's fenced-in front yard on Sherburne Avenue, they ran into Gwennie, who began barking loudly at them. One of the deputies fired at the dog, killing her. "I heard a bark-bark-bark, bang-bang-bang and yelp-yelp-yelp," said Charley Hatch, who was inside his home getting his two daughters ready so they could take Gwennie to a routine veterinary exam. Hatch saw the dog bleeding and five officers standing around "with a look of oh-oh," he said. Hatch asked the deputies why they shot his dog and they said they felt they were in danger, he said. More than 10 neighbors gathered around the yard witnessed the scene. Ramsey County Sheriff Bob Fletcher did not return a call to his home Sunday seeking explanation of the incident. "One of the officers said this is known for being a bad neighborhood," said Frank Schwantes, who lives next door to the Hatches. Schwantes said he heard the shots from inside his home, then went outside to see what was going on. The 7-year-old Lab was the family pet as well as the dog Beth Hatch uses for demonstrations when she trains dogs at her job at Dog Days in St. Paul. "I can't believe a police office with four comrades felt threatened with a Lab," said Steve Schultz, owner of Dog Days. "She's a mellow dog, an unbelievably well-trained dog. Beth has her as well-trained as a K-9." Schultz wondered why deputies didn't use pepper spray or something milder than a bullet to calm the dog. The Hatches' three children -- Robby, 8; Kelley, 6; and Katie, 3 -- grew up with Gwennie. "It shouldn't have happened," Kelley said. "She died saving our lives. She was barking to make sure we were safe." Eric Torbenson contributed to this report.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:12:48 AM EDT
And some folks wonder why people don't like police... Bark-bark-bark, bang-bang-bang and yelp-yelp-yelp Sue-sue-sue...
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:16:35 AM EDT
Damn. RIP, Gwennie! [b]-RoadDog[/b]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:29:11 AM EDT
Three shots fired outside my door will get 30 fired right back at you, no matter what you're shooting at. LEO be warned. Make sure you have the right guy before you start shooting in my yard. F***ing assholes!
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:33:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By platform389: And some folks wonder why people don't like police... Bark-bark-bark, bang-bang-bang and yelp-yelp-yelp Sue-sue-sue...
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Legally, civilian dogs are considered nothing but property and the only compensation that can be recouped is that of the purchase value of the animal. According to a radio show I was listening to, Austin SWAT assigns the pointman to kill any dogs encountered during dynamic entries. What better way to get the homeowner to shoot at the cops after seeing his dog getting killed. Then after he gets taken out it would be ruled "self defense" even if it was the wrong house.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:36:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 9:34:13 AM EDT by ECS]
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io:
Originally Posted By platform389: And some folks wonder why people don't like police... Bark-bark-bark, bang-bang-bang and yelp-yelp-yelp Sue-sue-sue...
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Legally, civilian dogs are considered nothing but property and the only compensation that can be recouped is that of the purchase value of the animal. According to a radio show I was listening to, Austin SWAT assigns the pointman to kill any dogs encountered during dynamic entries. What better way to get the homeowner to shoot at the cops after seeing his dog getting killed. Then after he gets taken out it would be ruled "self defense" even if it was the wrong house.
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Ruby Ridge sound familar?
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:38:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 9:36:49 AM EDT by Noname]
I guess the family should be glad Capt Ballsack didn't "feel endangered" by the crying 6 year old...
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:42:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:43:45 AM EDT
The more I think about this, the more pissed I'm getting. I'd like to see the cop lovers on this board try to rationalize this one? I thought I had gotten over cop hating about 25 years ago, when I grew up, and stopped being a punk. Well it seems some things in life have to come full circle, cuz I would really like to take the asshole that shot this Lab, and kick his f***ing ass all over creation. If it were my dog, I might calmly ask who did it, and then splatter his nose all over his face, just before I busted half his ribs with a good kick in the chest. He'd be wishing he was wearing a couple of gym mats instead of body armor, that's for sure. Screw cops. They're just a bunch of immature pussies who think wearing blue and carrying a piece and a badge makes them something special.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:46:56 AM EDT
b]According to a radio show I was listening to, Austin SWAT assigns the pointman to kill any dogs encountered during dynamic entries. What better way to get the homeowner to shoot at the cops after seeing his dog getting killed. Then after he gets taken out it would be ruled "self defense" even if it was the wrong house.[/b] B.S. The "radio show" you were listening to was undoubtedly Alex Jones, and he is an Idiot. With a capital "I." No law enforcement agency in the Austin area, including Autin PD, allows its officers to shoot an animal unless it attacking and it places someone in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. The only dog that Austin has shot in the last year (to the best of my knowledge) was a dog killed at an alarm call. As far as the deputies who shot the wrong dog, they screwed up by going to the wrong house. The deputy responsible for that will most likely get some disciplinary action, probably some days off without pay, and his department will probably pay the family for the dog. It sucks for the family, but what else can anyone do? This is not an example of corruption or anything evil; it is most likely an honset mistake.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:50:35 AM EDT
Just think. For every time this gets ink, there is probibally 50 times it happens that it dont. This country is begining to stink on ice. Eric
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:55:54 AM EDT
Ok, if the cops do a dynamic entry on the wrong house and the homeowner takes out some of them he should only get a reprimand because it was an honest mistake too.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:10:08 AM EDT
"Screw cops! They are a bunch of immature pussies who think wearing blue and carrying a piece and a badge make them something special." Uhh....doesn't this even remotely remind you of the stereotyping that the anti-gun types do to honest law abiding citizens? Screw gunowners. They are a bunch of immature pussies who think the second amendment and carrying a piece makes them something special. If you don't like it when ignorant people incorrectly label you, then it's a tad hypocritical to do likewise to all cops. MG
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:17:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mean Green: "Screw cops! They are a bunch of immature pussies who think wearing blue and carrying a piece and a badge make them something special." Uhh....doesn't this even remotely remind you of the stereotyping that the anti-gun types do to honest law abiding citizens? Screw gunowners. They are a bunch of immature pussies who think the second amendment and carrying a piece makes them something special. If you don't like it when ignorant people incorrectly label you, then it's a tad hypocritical to do likewise to all cops. MG
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Gun owners come out in large numbers to condemn the actions of people who misuse firearms. When cops come out in large numbers to condemn other cops who misuse their firearms, and other powers, my mind may begin to change. Til then, screw cops. They're a bunch of pussy ass punks.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:21:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:26:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:30:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: Ok, if the cops do a dynamic entry on the wrong house and the homeowner takes out some of them he should only get a reprimand because it was an honest mistake too.
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Imbrog|io, I believe that's the wisest thing you've said in quite a while. I like that one. **Applause** [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:31:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:45:15 AM EDT
Hummmmmm, WRONG F. HOUSE!!!! Didn't someone teach thease boys/girls how to read a map!?! If that was my dog, I'd sue for the emotional stress caused by the incident on the CHILDREN!!!! Threatened........dog wasn't biting them? (No insult intended here....on this next comment to LEO's). Some people who become LE's have no business there in the first place. Where was common sence there....... apparently, when you put on the badge and work for the government...... some people become brainless like the government system. (Not all of you....remember, please, no offense intended.) I have LE friends and the ones I know are great. They do their job well and love it. I'll have to ask them about this.......incident.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:46:49 AM EDT
I'm not a cop, I only play one in prison. Police officers are only human, there will always be officers who are unfit for the job. Because of the good pay and strong unions many who are not cut out for the job refuse to leave and it's very hard to get them fired. Just like every other position out there your going to have the good and bad. [:(]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:58:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Noname: I guess the family should be glad Capt Ballsack didn't "feel endangered" by the crying 6 year old...
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I wonder if any innocent people had a firearm illegally brandished toward them in this incident. This is the kind of thing (wrong address, innocent people endangered/killed) that we need FULL accountability for. Police have to be able to go after crimminals but there is no accountability in the system, especially the higher up in LE you go (federal).
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:06:14 AM EDT
I would have no mercy on someone that kills my dog. radioman
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:11:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Oscar: I'm not a cop, I only play one in prison. Police officers are only human, there will always be officers who are unfit for the job. Because of the good pay and strong unions many who are not cut out for the job refuse to leave and it's very hard to get them fired. Just like every other position out there your going to have the good and bad. [:(]
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Any union is only as strong as it's members. If the members of the police union that are so called "good" cops come out in force and condemn the actions of their fellow officers that screw up, and get them removed from the force, I'll begin to respect LEO again. Until then, they can bite me. [:)] One bad apple DOES spoil the whole bunch, and they need to actively get rid of their bad apples. How's it going Oscar? Please splain to these folks that I'm not a nut case, ok? [;)]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:15:02 AM EDT
I think this happens all the time and we just don't hear about it. About 3 years ago US Marshalls served a warrant on my neighbors house at 5:00 in the morning and it was the wrong house. My neighbor was in her 70's and lived alone with a dog. The guy they were after lived on the other side of town (Northwest not Northeast). When they entered the house the neighbors dog (a toy poodle) started barking and one of the marshalls kicked the dog and killed it. Needless to say they realized their mistake in about 2 minutes. They ended up paying $250 to replace the dog and someone came out and replaced the front door and one of the bedroom door. That was it. She never received any formal apology or anything. Thugs with license.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:17:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Oscar: Just like every other position out there your going to have the good and bad. [:(]
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Yeah but "every other position out there" doesn't get a gun with license to use it on civilians.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:26:43 AM EDT
Sue! Take them to court! (See below) Leo, the bichon frise{acute} who was tossed onto a crowded road and killed outside San Jose International Airport last year, has been avenged. His killer, a 27-year-old man apparently suffering from road rage. There's no question that Andrew Burnett, the world's most famous dog killer, should be punished. Society has an abiding interest in protecting animals from acts as cruel as his. Plain decency cries out for it. That said, let's ask ourselves why Burnett's act last year -- throwing a bichon frise{acute} into traffic -- caused an international outrage, and why Burnett now faces a three-year prison sentence instead of a penalty truly fitting his crime. He got 3 years in the slam! For killing a dog.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:42:15 AM EDT
Ok, ok so I am upset dog got shot. Not happy about mistaken address either. But I'll be damned if I don't remind everyone what that dog did. It gave its life for its owners so thay could get between 7-10 seconds heads up warning! That's enough heads up for me to...... R.I.P. puppy you will probably be replaced by another beautifull animal that will be twice as cherished by its masters. This is why I own a dog and take care of it properly; for those few extra seconds.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:57:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: Ok, if the cops do a dynamic entry on the wrong house and the homeowner takes out some of them he should only get a reprimand because it was an honest mistake too.
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Once upon a time that WAS the law. A defense to common-law murder was resisting an unlawful arrest with appropriate force. No mas. All animals are equal, except....
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:54:40 PM EDT
Hi critter_FR how's it going, critter_FR is an very nice person, it just seems he may have run into some powertripping cops. As far as cops turning on cops, your never going to see that because they have to depend on one another when the shit hits the fan and just like the bad guys no one wants to be a rat. You may find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time with no backup. Yobo, not every cop gets away with a bad shoot, here in CT a cop is looking at doing time for shooting some kid last year. [:(]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:16:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:48:24 PM EDT
LEO dogs are LEO also. If you harm one you get the same treatment as for harming a LEO. My wifes dogs are more important to her than any other dogs on the planet. If you harm one of their dogs though...................
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 1:42:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MDS: LEO dogs are LEO also. If you harm one you get the same treatment as for harming a LEO. My wifes dogs are more important to her than any other dogs on the planet. If you harm one of their dogs though...................
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Correctomundo!!It is a felony to harm an LEO dog but it is o.k. for them to shoot your dog(wrong house no less!!!) LEO, or anyone for that matter, storming my house(wrong house) + harm of any kind to my dogs = dead thug, LEO or otherwise. BTW am not anti-LEO. I am anti-thug whatever your chosen proffesion.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 1:44:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2001 1:43:53 AM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
F- those dog killers! Where's Railgun? I was just thinking about the time those power hungry fcks arrested me for no reason and threw me in jail. The arresting officer was a bitch. Only about five to seven cop cars were there. Got out of my car at gunpoint. $5000 bail for some alleged fighting crap that never took place. I got bailed out the next morning but still, F-THEM! No charges filed because it was all made up. Part of some bitch officer's wet dream or something. Where the hell is my compensation? - Lost time - Towed vehicle - Transportation costs to pick up car - Impound storage/ tow fee - False arrest(my opinion of course) No I don't hate all LEO's. Have a couple friends in the biz. I will hate them on a case by case basis. In this case, F-THEM! One day, I'll move to Switzerland. One more thing- You don't fuck with a person's dog. Dog owners, you know what I mean.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 1:59:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 2:16:51 AM EDT
I can't believe all of this furor is being generated over the supposed accidental shooting of a dog! There really needs to be some appropriate hate-crime legislation to curb all of this LEO-Bashing hate! If I were a cop I don't think I could stand to read all of this hate-spew. I am really surprised by the lack of support the dog shooter has generated on this board. I know I usually see more LEO defense over "accidental" and "mistaken" shoots against humans, especially when they were alone w/no witness for their side of the story. I mean really the story seems really one sided. I don't see any detailed information being allowed in from the police perspective. How do we know that this is an isolated incident? Is there any proof that this dog hasn't barked, growled or bared its fangs at members of the law enforcement community previously? No of course not. It was probably a LEO-bashing mutt and got what all LEO haters probably deserve. I am sure the officer in question was in fear of his/her life on the other side of the fence, traumatized for life due to all that barking, yelping and whining he/she had to put up with. Hopefully he/she can get a "stress" retirement (at the dog owners taxed expense) and try to get on with life the best he/she can. This country really needs to be more like mainland China; 1) The cops their don't have to put up with your whiny shit. It's against the Law to give them lip! 2) The death of a dog, especially one of this size is not a sad event, it turns into a bar-b-q party!!! Mmmmm!!! Lab Chops my favorite! rDAm
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 2:44:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2001 2:54:58 AM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
Why the hell did only one so-called deputy fear for his/ her life? Damm pussy. One lab can overpower four deputies in one lunge attack? Pussy would probably fire at a damm ferret. Probably been watching too much Monty Python's Holy Grail and that killer rabbit. I certainly hope that pussy doesn't become a mailman. Headline: "Mailman Shoots Dog Because He Felt Threatened From Bark Emitting From Mailbox". Just shoot the damm suspect because he yells at you why don't you.
Originally Posted By Invictus: I can't believe all of this furor is being generated over the supposed accidental shooting of a dog!
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Believe it!
There really needs to be some appropriate hate-crime legislation to curb all of this LEO-Bashing hate! If I were a cop I don't think I could stand to read all of this hate-spew.
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More proposed restrictions on your First Amendment rights.
I am really surprised by the lack of support the dog shooter has generated on this board. I know I usually see more LEO defense over "accidental" and "mistaken" shoots against humans, especially when they were alone w/no witness for their side of the story.
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I'm not one bit surprised.
I mean really the story seems really one sided. I don't see any detailed information being allowed in from the police perspective.
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That's cause they know they FCKed up!
How do we know that this is an isolated incident? Is there any proof that this dog hasn't barked, growled or bared its fangs at members of the law enforcement community previously? No of course not. It was probably a LEO-bashing mutt and got what all LEO haters probably deserve. I am sure the officer in question was in fear of his/her life on the other side of the fence, traumatized for life due to all that barking, yelping and whining he/she had to put up with. Hopefully he/she can get a "stress" retirement (at the dog owners taxed expense) and try to get on with life the best he/she can.
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Now I know your just kidding.
This country really needs to be more like mainland China; 1) The cops their don't have to put up with your whiny shit. It's against the Law to give them lip! 2) The death of a dog, especially one of this size is not a sad event, it turns into a bar-b-q party!!! Mmmmm!!! Lab Chops my favorite! rDAm
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No comment!
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 2:50:44 AM EDT
[IMG]http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/otn/sleepy/jpsleepy.gif[/IMG] What Ever !!!! Jay Arizona
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 5:09:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAR15M4: [IMG]http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/otn/sleepy/jpsleepy.gif[/IMG] What Ever !!!! Jay Arizona
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Do posts like the above irk anyone else? If the topic bores you... shut it and move on.... [rolleyes] As for someone shooting my dog because of a mistake? I can't even [i]fathom[/i] how upset I would be... it took me three years after my childhood dog passed to stop crying when I thought about him. [:(]
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 5:42:50 AM EDT
If I recall from the news-the officer said he thought his live was in "extreme danger". I am sorry, but I have never met a black lab, mean or not that I thought would/could ever kill me. Especially with 3 other officers around. I always wondered if for some reason they got the wrong house, and kicked in my door-I would surley have my pistol in hand pointing it in the direction of the people entering the house-this would probably get me shot about 50 times from mp5's. What then? I would be dead-and they would say "oops" Of course they would lay out my guns on a table with the evidence tags on them-showing my assault shot gun and machine pistol with cop killer bullets (hollow point) and my military machine gun ammo SA battle pack...
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 9:36:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cleatus: If I recall from the news-the officer said he thought his live was in "extreme danger". I am sorry, but I have never met a black lab, mean or not that I thought would/could ever kill me. Especially with 3 other officers around. I always wondered if for some reason they got the wrong house, and kicked in my door-I would surley have my pistol in hand pointing it in the direction of the people entering the house-this would probably get me shot about 50 times from mp5's. What then? I would be dead-and they would say "oops" Of course they would lay out my guns on a table with the evidence tags on them-showing my assault shot gun and machine pistol with cop killer bullets (hollow point) and my military machine gun ammo SA battle pack...
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Couldn't have said it better myself. If you don't explicitly hear "POLICE", then what's stopping you, a law abiding legal-carrying citizen of the U.S., from grabbing that .45 and heading cautiously towards the intruders? When you reach the SWAT team with a pistol in your hand, who's to say that you won't get shot? Sure, maybe some of the members play it cool and tell their attacker to "drop the weapon, this is the police", but what if that rear guard gets a little jumpy and pops a 12G slug in you - oops!! I members of SWAT (who I might not immediately recognize when I hear people banging and storming into my house and my adrenaline is rushing) or other LEO assault teams enter my house mistakenly, what am I to do? If I pull my gun, there's a good chance I'm dead - if I don't, there's a good chance that they are criminals (and I'm still dead). Will somebody here familiar with any kind of anti-terrorist entry give me pointers on what I, a gun owner, should do when strange men wearing black enter MY home? Would really appreciate it. [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 9:59:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2001 10:06:34 AM EDT by sf46]
I think Mr. Brown has said all that needs to be said on the subject... [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=33268#lastPost[/url]
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 10:01:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cleatus: If I recall from the news-the officer said he thought his live was in "extreme danger". I am sorry, but I have never met a black lab, mean or not that I thought would/could ever kill me.
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Good point. Personally I've never met a mean lab. Sounds like a case of a nervous idiot with his finger on the trigger. Makes me think his partners didn't know what he was doing until it was too late. And then it was.... "you dick". Even so, take responsibility for your actions, and rethink your ability to perform your duties morally in a real life or death situation. Some folks just don't have what it takes. Another case of the 10% rule. I will not bash cops in general. But I do get angry at the idiots that give the rest a bad name. Just like those that give gun owners a bad name.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 10:22:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By critter_FR: Three shots fired outside my door will get 30 fired right back at you, no matter what you're shooting at. LEO be warned. Make sure you have the right guy before you start shooting in my yard. F***ing assholes!
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Yes, yes, yes, we all know you're a badass. Why is it that some of you can't simply discuss the ISSUE rather than have make these kind of self-serving, irrelevant (not to mention ridiculous sounding) quips? -SARguy
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 10:29:11 AM EDT
999 times out of 1000, the cop who commits a crime will get off. Until we the people demand a change, it will continue. I trust no one with the "blue brain syndrome" good cop or bad, they're all infected.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 10:39:46 AM EDT
I heard an interview of the owner of "Dog Days", the place where Beth Hatch and Gwennie were employed. The dog was not only highly trained, but regularly visited with patients at local hospitals. Sounds like a viscious animal that needed to be put down.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 10:51:22 AM EDT
Cases of mistaken identity where the result is a crime committed by police officers should result in the end of a supervisor's career. Invasion of privacy, destruction of property, the killing of a pet or family member...these should all be career enders for supervisors... Sorry, that's my opinion.... if we raise the consequences of a f%ck up, there will be fewer of them. Think of it this way... sooner or later, that tactical team is gonna make dynamic entry into a law abiding citizen's home who believes as I do....that it is your civic right and DUTY to defend your home from would-be invaders.... by cutting a few sloppy manager's careers short, you will lengthen the lives of some cops that "work" for a living.... shoot my dog, invade my home and I will likely shoot you. If you want to arrest me, don't do it in my home, I go to work, I go to the store, heck, I'd surrender willingly... I believe in the US judicial system (with all it's flaws)....there will never be a need to make dynamic entry into my home...unless you want to take away my freedom without cause...in that case, barge right in.............................ende
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 11:06:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2001 12:04:02 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
5 deputies to serve a warrant for a hot check? An agressive black lab? Someone that posted asked if the dog was barking why not pepper spray it. If the dog isn't charging why pepper spray it? Barking is not an agressive act by itself. Well another report says 4 deputies, a warrant service team, the 5th arrived after the shooting. The address was an old address, one of 16, that they had for the suspect, so technically they found the address they were lokking for. I know some of you may be shocked that a suspect would give an incorrect or made up address.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 11:13:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 11:47:49 AM EDT
oink, oink, oink, bang-bang-bang and yelp-yelp-yelp
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 12:15:08 PM EDT
The anti-gun nuts want anti-gun laws and will only allow "law enforcement only" weapons. Scary, very scary.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 12:41:25 PM EDT
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