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Posted: 6/25/2001 5:03:34 PM EST
These are obsolete.....today`s technology is......SR25/AR10.........[smoke]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:07:25 PM EST
If you want to split hairs, todays technology is caseless ammo, and comes from HK..
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:08:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:12:55 PM EST
Sorry, but _McUzi's right. And about that "today's tech does not work": money solves problems... If the funding for the G11 / caseless ammo project hadn't been cut off, we would be having this discussion on www.G11.com
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:19:53 PM EST
The theater of battle has changed, moving more towards carbines for urban engagements, but I'd still take a .308 in a pinch, rather than a .223! It took me 8 years to find my FN and I'd sell 1000 AR-15s before I'd consider cutting loose with my FN! If you've ever fired a real one, you'd either have one or spend years searching for one of your own! My AR is really a fun gun and is really cool to show off, but when I'm on the range and produce the FN, everyone stops shooting and comes to watch me send rounds down range. I've ruined many a home this way. I think that the FN, M-14 and HK don't fit every application, but I don't think that you can even begin to compare the knockdown power of one of these pieces to an AR-15. An FNC would be a nice addition to my collection, but staying married is probably more important these days!
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:22:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By FNFalGuy: The theater of battle has changed, moving more towards carbines for urban engagements, but I'd still take a .308 in a pinch, rather than a .223! It took me 8 years to find my FN and I'd sell 1000 AR-15s before I'd consider cutting loose with my FN! If you've ever fired a real one, you'd either have one or spend years searching for one of your own! My AR is really a fun gun and is really cool to show off, but when I'm on the range and produce the FN, everyone stops shooting and comes to watch me send rounds down range. I've ruined many a home this way. I think that the FN, M-14 and HK don't fit every application, but I don't think that you can even begin to compare the knockdown power of one of these pieces to an AR-15. An FNC would be a nice addition to my collection, but staying married is probably more important these days!
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No one said anything about ar15.....[smoke]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:24:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By havoc: Sorry, but _McUzi's right. And about that "today's tech does not work": money solves problems... If the funding for the G11 / caseless ammo project hadn't been cut off, we would be having this discussion on www.G11.com
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Therefore, back to original statement!!!!
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:26:17 PM EST
Newer technology maybe, improved accuracy certainly, improved combat arms who knows? I doubt that though, the AR10 is more ammo sensitive than the FAL, not as easy to clean, and lacks the adjustable gas system IIRC.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:32:48 PM EST
Sometimes I disagree with Jeff Cooper, but in this instance I don't. I think he once said " A rifle designed to do everything does nothing well". Use and love your M1A, G3, & FAL for what they are. The same goes for your ARs or AKs. Different rifles, different applications. There is no G11 on the near horizion, at least not for civies.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:39:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By no ma''am: Sometimes I disagree with Jeff Cooper, but in this instance I don't. I think he once said " A rifle designed to do everything does nothing well".
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Jeff Cooper went on to design the concept of the Scout rifle, a "general purpose" rifle designed to do most everything... See: [url]www.molonlabe.net/johns[/url]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:41:00 PM EST
I think that the 7.62NATO type rifles are obsolete in today's modern armies because they use long-range artillery, rockets, etc. What is the use of 7.62NATO type rifles when you are going to hit your target multiple times with precision guided cuise missles etc, or you get nuked with a 20 mega ton warhead.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:43:24 PM EST
black&green, Sorry about the AR-15 comment. I guess that thinking about the full-size Armalite products got me on the offensive about those folks that think that the AR-15 is the "end all" of combat weapons. The SR-25/AR-10s are nice rifles, but due to nostalgia, a one of a type feel and my long search, I've chosen to keep the FN instead. I especially like the flat-top, bull-barreled AR-10T with a 4x14 Leupold Var X III on top. A buddy of mine has an older version and it is a tack driver. I've got to agree with no ma"am on the each tool has its use analogy. I sure could use an AR-10T and an AK-47 to round out my collection.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:47:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/25/2001 5:45:33 PM EST by black-guns]
Originally Posted By FNFalGuy: black&green, Sorry about the AR-15 comment. I guess that thinking about the full-size Armalite products got me on the offensive about those folks that think that the AR-15 is the "end all" of combat weapons. The SR-25/AR-10s are nice rifles, but due to nostalgia, a one of a type feel and my long search, I've chosen to keep the FN instead. I especially like the flat-top, bull-barreled AR-10T with a 4x14 Leupold Var X III on top. A buddy of mine has an older version and it is a tack driver. I've got to agree with no ma"am on the each tool has its use analogy. I sure could use an AR-10T and an AK-47 to round out my collection.
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My next investment may very well be a fal, buddy.........[smoke]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:55:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/25/2001 6:11:34 PM EST by NODDAH]
I was stationed in Germany; and saw this "future weapon" The G11 was a project the German Govt. dumped money into for over 2 decades and when it came down to it... It cooked off rounds and didn't work! (Millions of dollars later) Any other company would of gone belly up if wasn't for the socialist nature of buisness in Europe. (German Gov't/HK) Hence..the m16/ar180 knock off (G36) As for the G3/M14/Fal the battle rifle concept is just as valid today as in WWII. These rifles are just the evolutionary missing links with the Assualt Rifle. I own a Scout. The Scout is an awesome rifle. Is it best at everything..I don't think so. However, I have found it an extremely all purpose hunting/carying/shooter. More accurate than one might think..But not comp. level. I find it silly no one else has made a rifle to fit the same bill. (Less the $)
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 6:15:24 PM EST
Actually, caseless as well as electronic ignition are not new concepts. for some reason, either one seems to ever be sucessful. as far as new tecnology, h/k would certainly be forthcoming.....i would not be surprised to see beams of light emitting from those h/k muzzles!.....(who knows, maybe they have it!)
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 7:35:02 PM EST
These are obsolete.....today`s technology is......SR25/AR10.........
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posted April 08, 2001 11:18 on FNFAL GD forum: "DS Arms (DSA) has just finished testing the VA Comp and is shipping two of THEIR guns to ME for installation and tuning for a NAVY contract with the SEALS. Thats my two cents. Rick Firebaugh BP Technology" [img]http://www.dsarms.com/images/dsosw.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 7:42:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/25/2001 7:41:10 PM EST by havoc]
Originally Posted By mother: posted April 08, 2001 11:18 on FNFAL GD forum: "DS Arms (DSA) has just finished testing the VA Comp and is shipping two of THEIR guns to ME for installation and tuning for a NAVY contract with the SEALS. Thats my two cents. Rick Firebaugh BP Technology" [img]http://www.dsarms.com/images/dsosw.gif[/img]
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Wow, that's some whiz-bang set-up there. When everyone is done admiring it, you should note that the F*ING AIMPOINT GOES IN FRONT OF THE F*ING NIGHT VISION DEVICE!!! Ahem. Nice gun.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 7:48:23 PM EST
You are correct! All of your FAL/G3/M14/M1A are obsolete. Please send them to me. I will take them off your hands. You wouldn't want an obsolete weapon, would you? I will also accept any other old, outdated weapons you have laying around cluttering your gun safes, taking up valuable space.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:05:33 PM EST
The AR's problem is it's gas system and small cartridge. Stoner came out with a better design (the AR18). The cartridge though is too small. I think a 7 mm or 6.5mm round would have been a better compromise (weight vs. ballistics vs. penetration).
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:22:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By black&green: These are obsolete.....today`s technology is......SR25/AR10.........[smoke]
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Your "todays technology" is nearly as old as the rifles you claim are obsolete. They are just beefed up AR-15s/M-16s.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:30:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/25/2001 8:28:09 PM EST by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By warlord: I think that the 7.62NATO type rifles are obsolete in today's modern armies because they use long-range artillery, rockets, etc. What is the use of 7.62NATO type rifles when you are going to hit your target multiple times with precision guided cuise missles etc, or you get nuked with a 20 mega ton warhead.
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Remember that thing in the desert about ten years ago. The Spec-ops broke out the "obsolete" M-14s Because they can reach out to long distances and the sand wouldn't hurt them, they found out that they will run without lubrication. No 20 mega ton warheads and they weren't shooting rag heads with cruise missiles.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:33:53 PM EST
I dunno...stand in front of a 175 HPBT fired from an M14 and tell me that it is "obsolete"..
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 9:03:47 PM EST
There's no such thing as obsolete when it comes to killing. (Ask the Viet Cong) My daddy made me stop carrying a knife when I got big enough to kill a man with my bare hands. A dead person doesn't much care how they got that way.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:20:11 AM EST
if it works it works look at almost any gurrela war they used whatevr they got there hands on and it worked when it comes to guns nothing is totaly obsolete if u feel it is i will glady take them off your hands
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:33:52 AM EST
Couldn't the G11 cookoff problem have been fixed now by using the same material on the bottom of the space shuttle that can be heated with a blowtorch and still held in your hand?
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:41:14 AM EST
While I enjoy ALL my AR's and variants... When the earthquake (last SHTF I was party to) hit a few months ago, it was my FN I grabbed, before the rumble stopped. No thinking, just reaction... Train harder, bleed less....
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 4:15:46 AM EST
While the Shuttle Orbiter's heat shielding insulates heat very well, that's not material you'd want as part of caseless ammunition. The idea behind caseless ammo is that it gets completely combusted in the firing chamber. If it doesn't get completely consumed, that means you'll have more and more residue with no method of evacuating it. Not something you'd want in a military weapon. I was fascinated by the G11 when I first heard about it. As details about it came out, it was easy to see why the Germans never fielded it. One weak point is the ammo itself. Apparantly, it can stand several hours of immersion in water or exposure to moisture before failure. While several hours might sound good, you have to keep in mind that brass cased ammunition can withstand that treatment for several days. A lot of folks praise the HK's firearms innovation and craftsmanship. So if they couldn't get this thing to work effectively, it really must not have been feasible.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 4:29:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 4:47:31 AM EST
I think the highlight of stoner's toys was the 63 not the ar18
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:19:17 AM EST
6 of one, half a dozen of another. If they all launch the same projectile with similar operating systems, how can one be obsolete and the others aren't? I think Black&Green was baiting us, or maybe teasing those who only have have poodle shooters.If I didn't already have an M1A, I would get an AR10, but I just can't justify the expense to have another rifle that does exactly the same thing.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:31:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By gunmonkey: 6 of one, half a dozen of another. If they all launch the same projectile with similar operating systems, how can one be obsolete and the others aren't? I think Black&Green was baiting us, or maybe teasing those who only have have poodle shooters.If I didn't already have an M1A, I would get an AR10, but I just can't justify the expense to have another rifle that does exactly the same thing.
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Thanks....we did get some interesting posts......on a recent documentary, one of the seals showed a m14 that he still uses and was quoted "THAT`S a serious rifle"........
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 7:26:51 AM EST
I am glad my 10/22 isn't on the obsolete list.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 8:16:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 8:20:50 AM EST by SP10]
How did I KNOW that an AR-10 Goon (er-GUY!) started this thread! AR10 firing sequence: bang bang ,, [insert swear word dujour], look for broken part..., NAH, JUST KIDDING! I Love my AR-10! Really. Thank GAWD for those old OBSO-phucken-LETE M1A mags!
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 8:29:15 AM EST
Today's technoligy is electric weapons remingtons new rifle they have with electric feature's./new improved plastics/ Smart gun bullshit. and scope's with very low light and laser range finding capabilities. this may include a revision of M14's/G3/FAL's look at the armilite 180 with the polymer lower's, H&K's G36 went back to the locking lugs instead of delayed roller mechinism. AR10 is OLD technoloigy remember this gun was designed back in the 60's.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 8:40:47 AM EST
If they are so obsolete, why did the Brits dump their M-16's and go back to their FAL's during the Gulf War? If they are so obsolete why did Guns & Ammo put out an article about some US spec ops units adopting the DSA FAL? The G3 and M-14 may very well be obsolete, but the FAL is 50 years ahead of its time.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:40:24 AM EST
Speaking of obsolescence, the first rule of a gunfight: Bring a gun Any gun, an old gun, an obsolete gun, but bring a gun.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:49:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By Wadman: While the Shuttle Orbiter's heat shielding insulates heat very well, that's not material you'd want as part of caseless ammunition. The idea behind caseless ammo is that it gets completely combusted in the firing chamber. If it doesn't get completely consumed, that means you'll have more and more residue with no method of evacuating it. Not something you'd want in a military weapon.
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I didn't mean as part of the ammunition, more as for inside the gun itself, along the walls of the chamber where it contacts the bullet to absorb the heat.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:53:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 10:50:59 AM EST by NODDAH]
(sf46) They weren't M16's it was the Brits Bullpup design they dumped and went back to the FAL. (By the way the Brits have been talking about going to the M4) Also there was problems with the AUG in the desert. Some of those soldiers were given M16's. (I talked with them)
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:10:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By black&green: These are obsolete.....today`s technology is......SR25/AR10.........[smoke]
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As someone else said, if I shoot you with my G3, you will be as dead as if I shot you with your AR10.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:33:16 AM EST
How come so many people want to shoot me?....I like ALL your guns!.......[smoke]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:43:58 PM EST
A lot of things are "improvements" in search of a problem. At any rate, ninety percent of the equation has to do with the nut behind the trigger.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:49:48 PM EST
A lot of things are "improvements" in search of a problem. At any rate, ninety percent of the equation has to do with the nut behind the trigger.
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