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Posted: 6/18/2001 8:44:17 AM EDT
Am looking for a rifle to carry while hiking in Grizzly country. Rifle must be lightweight and utterly reliable. Have considered M1A but it is too heavy. Garand only has 8 shots, am looking for one with 20 rnd clip. HK's are very reliable but are heavy and can no longer be purchsed NIB (NIB being important for reliability). Thinking about lightweight DSA or AR-10. Accuracy is not as important as reliability as this would only be for a charging bear. This rifle would only be for emergency encounters only, I know that if I was going to hunt a Grizzly I'd be using a .338 win mag, or 475 H&H ect. Have considered a 12-gage with slugs, but can only get 7-8 shots, they're heavy, and only good out to approx 50 yrds. (besides I have a 12 gage and don't have a short .308). Thanks.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 8:59:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2001 9:08:31 AM EDT by Lee]
Have you considered pepper spray instead (link below)? The chances of being attacked are very slim if you use minimal precautions, and sprays have proven to be very effective. A shotgun would work also but I'd use it as a last resort. I wouldn't worry about the lack of fire power either. If you aren't successful with the first two or three shots, you probably won't be around to use the others. Hope you have a great trip. http://www.udap.com/
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:01:01 AM EDT
I don't know how much effect .308 would have on a Grizzly. I think the Garand you mentioned is probably your best bet. If you can't stop him with 8 shots, you deserve to be eaten.[:D]
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:06:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2001 9:06:42 AM EDT by Rifles4Me]
A few words. My grand father lives in Alaska so he carries a gun almost everywhere. His rifle of chioce is an SKS. Mainly because the SKS makes a lot more noise and ammo isn't that expencive. Now do not shoot the bear becuase that will piss him off. Shoot near him but not at him. He also carries a Desert Eagle 50 cal incase the bear does charge. But sence that is expensive I would recomend don't show fear and NEVER PLAY DEAD. That is one of the biggest lies spread by those Enviromentalist Wackos. Most bears will do a false charge at you if you start to run he will chase and catch you. Then you are screwed. They will only really charge once out of everten times. Another thing if it does charge dont hit it in the nose you are more likly to loose a hand that way. And yes pepper spray is a good idea. Just dont point it at anyone else but the bear. Umm to comment on the post above you don't need to kill the bear. Cause the only thing that will stop a grizzly in its tracks is a close range 12 guage Sabot. Close Range = 5 or less feet. That or a .50 BMG to the head.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:08:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:20:06 AM EDT
just my opinion, take it for what its worth... i use my rem 700 .30-06. 1) TOTALLY reliable 2) 5 rounds - better than NO rounds 3) you probably won't encounter one, if you do, once he SMELLS that you're a human, he'll probably just leave. in the remotest chance that you harrass it to the point of charging, the .30-06 is LOUD! it is powerful enough to make him think twice if you hit it, use the Safari grade ammo, it shoots hotter. but it is summer, and again, chances of making one angry are slim, unless you do it on purpose!
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:31:24 AM EDT
Umm loud yes make him think twice no. If it is charging you you are screwed. A 30.06 will only piss it off more.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:45:12 AM EDT
Eat a lot of garlic. It never hurts to smell too bad to eat. Carry the 12-ga. stoked with sabot slugs. If you must carry a rifle, a Remington 7400 Synthetic Carbine in .30-06 has the short 18.5" bbl. and can use 10-rd. mags. That's a pretty good setup for quick and fearful shooting! See if the 220-gr. rds. fit in the mag. Definetly function fire the gun/ammo combination first. Other than that, Grizzlies are just big old huggy bears, aren't they?
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:46:56 AM EDT
Your only going to get one shot, so forget about 20rd clips. Most DEFENSIVE shots will be around 15-20yds. If past that, forget the bear, the feds will take everything the bear doesn't. The 12ga. is a good choice, according to many around here. Most use OO buck with slugs alternating. They like the shortness of the shotgun, with pistol grip. Especially on horseback. Like I said you probably will only get one shot anyway. I would take the .338win. if it were me; and I spend alot of time in grizzly country. guns762
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:52:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:57:58 AM EDT
Hey, thanks for the replies. Pepper spray (according to the Discovery Channel's bear special - for whatever that's worth) only works 80% of the time. You get about one or two blasts and then that's it. The Marlin Guide gun is a great ideal. I'll have to look into that. I'll need to re-think the shotgun and Garand. Gotta go to work now; I'll check back later. Thanks.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:58:30 AM EDT
I think Lumpy has the answer...a 45/70 carbine is close to ideal. A 45/70 that can take modern pressures can send a 400 gr bullet at, or close to, 2000fps. a 300 grainer even faster. If I only get one shot thats what I want..
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 10:05:55 AM EDT
Is there a place where the number of bear attacks are recorded? (Keep in mind some of those will be South Park "he's coming right at us" type of "attacks")? I think the number of people actually killed/injured by Grizzlies is very low. (Kind of like shark attacks) I could be wrong, but in any event, I think a Garand is your best bet as well.
View Quote
We see two or three encounters every year it seems. Most attacks are stopped with pepper spray or one shot from a hunting rifle(.270, 7mm mag, 30-06). Most are females protecting their cubs that get between the hunter/hiker and the mother. I know three different people who have been charged in the last two years. Two stopped the charge with bear spray, the other with a 7mm mag. There are many more grizzly in our area than are claimed by the game and fish publicly. If you talk to an individual officer, they will tell you that. Last year hunting black bears, the local warden said the area I hunted had a few black bears, but had many, many grizzly. He was surprised I didn't see one. I did see a lot of sign; grizzly only. guns762
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 10:07:02 AM EDT
When I has gone camping in Alaska I was told by almost ever hunting guide out there 12ga with slugs and 00 buckshot and if you have to have a rifle don't go with anything lower then a 30-06 and the 30-06 you where risking your life on. They said at lest get a 338. when I went I carried a 12ga with 8 in the tube and one in the hole with the above mentioned slug and buckshot and try doing it as two slug then two buckshot. The bear spray sucks big time if you want to piss of the bear more then use it if you want a little breeze to blow it back in you face then your blind and getting malled then use it. Go for a gun because it the bear charges at you it maybe a bluff but are you will to take that chance. Last if you see a bear make a lot of noise and try walking back away from it. The best thing to do is to write a few guides for hunting trips and ask them what they use they would know best. If you need any more help just e-mail me.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 10:37:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2001 10:42:36 AM EDT by Sukebe]
I'm for an 18inch barreled 12ga. or the Marlin 1895 in the new .450Marlin might fill the bill. Bear spray is another good alternative but in Grizzly country I'm guessing theres more to worry about than just Grizzlies, like perhaps Timber wolves or Mountain lions. If your that concerned The Remington 7600(pump) and 7400(semi-auto) come in .30-06 with an 18in. barrel. You can get synthetic stocks for them and you can still find aftermarket hi-cap mags for them.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 10:43:50 AM EDT
A shotgun with alternating slugs and buckshot is fine. A Garand with soft-tips would be good, but Garands are a little heavy.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 12:30:10 PM EDT
There are a number of good options, most of which have already been mentioned: 1) Mossberg 500 or the like. 8 shots, quick follow up. While you are right about it only being good at less than 50 yards, that is more than you need for defensive purposes. If you shoot the bear farther away than that, the cops are unlikely to buy your self-defense story. If you can not hit a charging bear with 8 shots, you are already dead. With slugs, you have good power. Fairly easy to carry. 2) Remington 7400 semi-auto in 30-06. With 220 grain slugs, the Fish and Wildlife Service found 30-06 to be extremely effective against Grizzly. That 18.5" carbine would be easy to carry. You can get 10 round magazines from Cabelas, and can follow up quickly. Semi-auto action reduces recoil. 3) One of these 45-70 lever actions they make now might also work well. Handy and quick follow-ups. All three of these options weigh about 7 pounds and are less than 40" long. I'd hesitate to carry a Garand, because it is so long. Same for a regular bolt-action hunting rifle. A full-size rifle is just going to be a pain to carry while hiking, and could seriously detract from the experience. You don't need it when any of the three options above would serve just as well. An AR-10 carbine might work OK (still fairly heavy), but you will get those "evil-rifle" stares and possible get harrassed by game wardens and the like.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 12:58:20 PM EDT
Most of the scientist doing field work in grizzly or polar bear contry carry a 12 GA. I've seen a couple with good ooking 12 ga riots with top folding stocks. Seriously un-PC, but very utilitarian, since they don't want it in the way while they work. Amazing how un-PC can be so useful[:)]. The 12 GA will work fine at the ranges you need it to. There's also many of the noise maker rounds that you can load if you want to just scare them off. If you're with a buddy, one of you could have a noise maker for the first one or two rounds, while the other is backstop with slugs. It would depend on the situation. Pepper spray is suprisingly effective. 80% is actually pretty good, compared to throwing rocks or yelling at a bear. The odd thing is while bears don't like getting sprayed by the stuff, they are attracted to the smell. If you use it, or test fire it. Make sure you clean EVERYTHING that may have even the slightest trace on it. I mean like DECON it with alcohol or something. A bear's sense of smell is nearly unmatched and they will chase that pepper spray scent down to find out what it is. It can be a good tool, just remember there are two edges to that sword. I would carry my Remington 870 with LE folding stock, or my 1895 Marlin .45-70 (pre-guide gun). Ross
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 1:30:33 PM EDT
I work with a man who guides part time in grizzly country. He knows a professional guide who has been in the business for years, who had never had a major problem or bad encounter with a grizzly. Until last year. While guiding a hunt, he stumbled upon a cub. He immediately knew what was going to happen. In a split second, the sow came out of nowhere and began the mauling. The hunter ran away, scared shitless, leaving the guide on his own. The bear continued chewing on the guide for a while, then lost interest and went to check the cub. The guide, who is very experienced and knows what to do, made the mistake of moving. The sow returned at full speed to continue the attack. Then the hunter returned and emptied his rifle. I don't know what caliber it was, but the bear ran away with the cub in pursuit. Get the biggest damn caliber you can afford. Carbine length for easy maneuvering. Pepper spray works. A large caliber sidearm would probably be futile in a real attack, but I would still carry it. Make noise, bears will avoid people if they can. Keep a clean camp, store food away from camp. One last thing. My friend told me that the guide rode his horse out 40 miles to civilization after the attack. Tough old guy.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 1:35:05 PM EDT
I'd take a 12 Ga. pump action shotgun with slugs. You can get a short barrel. If the bear is beyond the range of a slug you probably can avoid him. Pump action only though you don't want an autoloader deciding to digest itself at the worst possible time.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 1:37:09 PM EDT
How 'bout a Tromix AR-15 chambered in .458 SOCOM? You would have 15 rounds on tap. Generally speaking, the most common rating of "knock down" power of an African dangerous game rifle is not foot pounds of energy, but rather the Taylor Knock Out factor. The .458 SOCOM rates a TKO of 48, whereas a .338 Win Mag only musters up a mediocre 35 and a 30'06 rates a 19 on the TKO scale. In the ultra-lite configuration, the gun would weigh less than 6 pounds. With 15 rounds of Barnes 300gr X bullets, I think this would do the ticket. Tony Rumore Tromix Corp www.tromix.com
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 1:38:36 PM EDT
IMHO a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70 would be ideal. I've owned one they shoot great and are easy to carry around due to the short length.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 1:44:11 PM EDT
Garrett Cartridges, Inc. POB 178 , Chehalis, WA 98532 makes a Phenomenal 415 gr. super hard cast 45-70 that has FULL BODY LENGTH penetration on anything in North America. The consistancy of the round is superb making it unbeleivably accurate in my lever action Marlin guide gun. With an Aimpoint it is extremely quick on target and will drop Anything within 200 yds. Remember when hiking in Grizzly country be aware and be able to tell the difference between blacks and griz. Look for dung - black bear dung looks like dog dung, has berry seeds and smells fruity. Griz dung usually has whistles and pepper spray wrappers in it and tastes like jalapenos.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 1:44:29 PM EDT
it seems the rifles that you are lookin at are more trouble than anything...first off, a 308 wont stop a charging griz, second hicaps will just get you in trouble...if you do get a chance to use more than one round then he wasnt chargin at you. id go for a 12 ga or 444 Marlin lever (never shot one...but damn thats a big round!) thats just me though
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 1:53:51 PM EDT
Three choices; 1) Rem. 870 with riot barrel loaded with slugs, heck in South Africa loaded with buck this is a good Chui weapon. 2) Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 loaded with Garret or other heavy loads Buff Bore etc. 3) Marlin Guide Gun in .450 Marlin, nice load In bear country I carry a revolver, usually a Mod 29 loaded with the Garret 310 gr semi wad cutters. Most bears are going to leave long before you see them, bear attacks are usually induced by those attacked. Most people who even see a bear consider such sightings as good luck. Jim
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 2:08:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2001 2:08:02 PM EDT by Lumpy223]
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 2:30:31 PM EDT
The Marlin Guide Gun looks like a good choice. I followed the link above and found that it now comes in stainless steel. Even better. The old 12ga would also make a good choice. I wouldn't worry about the 20 round magazines. A plus to the lever gun is it's innocuous looks. My wife is a wild life photographer. We go to places that have made me study the Guide Gun. I know I wouldn't use it for anything else so I just stick with my 308 bolt gun.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 2:36:53 PM EDT
Guns762 had the right answer. Here in Wyoming you damn well better have claw and bite marks on your body if you shoot a griz! I hunt in griz country (damn near can't avoid it) and carry pepper spray and when in timber carry a 1886 in 45-70. I've had several run-ins with griz and was able to back out of all of the situations (3 in Sunlight Basin and 1 on Pacific Creek). Have a close friend who put a .375 H&H 275 grainer into a old bore griz at 12 feet and he came out pretty tore up. the swat from the paw to the side of the head popped out his eye and the claws tore up his face bad. So based on that I think the next level of rifle to take would have to have wheels.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 3:15:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TonyRumore: How 'bout a Tromix AR-15 chambered in .458 SOCOM? You would have 15 rounds on tap. Generally speaking, the most common rating of "knock down" power of an African dangerous game rifle is not foot pounds of energy, but rather the Taylor Knock Out factor. The .458 SOCOM rates a TKO of 48, whereas a .338 Win Mag only musters up a mediocre 35 and a 30'06 rates a 19 on the TKO scale. In the ultra-lite configuration, the gun would weigh less than 6 pounds. With 15 rounds of Barnes 300gr X bullets, I think this would do the ticket. Tony Rumore Tromix Corp www.tromix.com
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Now not to rage on this gun or anything like that this round would be great if it where in something like a lever action or pump and maybe even bolt but for what your wanting to do as a defense gun from bear a semi-auto would be the last thing I'd take and this is not raging on Tromix or anything I'm sure there reliable and everything but unlike a human you can't go hand to hand with it. Another thing that I had problems with more then bear or wolves it was the wolverine this is one mean nasty sucker it maybe small but it can tear you apart and it will attack just seeing you. Just something to think about.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 4:05:25 PM EDT
My lord. I can't believe you are actually considering carrying a freaking 10 pound rifle or at best 7.5 pounds. Get a revolver, .44 mag. Or maybe if you are extra worried about attacks get the magnum research BFR. Grizzlies are not out to kill you. Anyways, whoever said mace had the right idea. Now I got to bag on all the ".308 will take any North American game animal with little trouble." Not to many recommendations, hmm.....
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 4:23:28 PM EDT
Yikes. Go with a 12ga. When you're crapping your pants, you will appreciate the shot pattern of 00bk! Most likely you will round the corner & 10 yards in front of you will be Mrs. Bear & cubs. No time to aim well, trust me. Usually the bears will be LONG gone. Occassionally you will share the same fishing hole with them, but they mind their own business (unless your fish is bigger) Don't bother with a rifle. I carry a Mossberg 590 with 3" 00bk when deep in country.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 4:24:59 PM EDT
I have a friend who lived in Alaska bear country for many moons. He told me the people where he lived were more likely to be charged/killed by a moose cow w/young than a bear. But everyone did carry a weapon. Most carried large caliber handguns but he preferred a 12ga. Whatever you decide, good luck.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 7:41:43 PM EDT
Leave the pepper spray home, forget the bear bells(dinner bells)On occasion I carry a 12 guage with 1 3/8 Brenneke slugs recoil is heavy, whenever I go into the Heavy Bush where whatever happens will be very close I carry a 45-70 with heavy cast bullets loaded heavy and recoil is heavy, if I am alone in addition to my levergun I also carry a 454 Casull recoil is heavy. I live in Brown Bear country Our family still has the original Homestead established in 1962 acessible by boat or floatplane and there are still a few 10 foot+ bears they are extremely fast and powerful and shouldn't be taken lightly. I lived in Wyoming many years ago there were a few bears but running into one was quite rare I was comfortable with normal (for the area) hunting cartridges, but in area's with a dense bear population and limited visibility I like heavy lead and fast handling weapons.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 8:52:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2001 8:54:18 PM EDT by prk]
Have heard that at the sound of shooting, they will head your way thinking they can run you off and eat your game for you. True? Avoid hollowpoints. [red][size=4] P.R.K.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:15:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2001 9:20:35 PM EDT by CHUCK6419]
AN AR-10/HK/M1A/FAL with one of those full-auto simulators could put 20 rounds in him very quickly. The .308 with FMJ's should do the trick for a head shot. MARlin Guide gun is great too. Browning makes a BAR in 7mm remington magnum, not very pointable though. Desert Eagle .44Mag is a great side-arm. You could kill it with a .22 if you had a shot right behind the ear or up its mouth. You Could Pistol grip your shotgun, put a two round extension on it and use sabot slugs, but they will only be accurate enough to hit it at 15-20 feet. Someguy on here makes AR-15 uppers in huge calibers. www.tromix.com [sniper]
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:28:14 PM EDT
You Could Pistol grip your shotgun, put a two round extension on it and use sabot slugs, but they will only be accurate enough to hit it at 15-20 feet. [sniper]
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Only accurate enough to hit a bear at 15-20 feet? Damn you must be the worst shot in the country then.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 9:37:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 1:47:34 PM EDT
"Have heard that at the sound of shooting, they will head your way thinking they can run you off and eat your game for you. True?" Very true! Particularly in NW Wyoming. Incidentally, the number of griz in the greater Y-stone area has ballooned in the last 20 years. For any of you who doubt the effectiveness of pepper spray, check out this web site and read the testimonials. www.udap.com
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 1:54:24 PM EDT
I think Freedom Arms makes a five shot revolver in 45/70 Govt., that might be just the ticket.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 2:15:45 PM EDT
Bird bombs for your shotgun is also good a lot of the Alaskan scientist use them in there shotguns.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 2:22:16 PM EDT
458 SOCOM [url]www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 2:46:45 PM EDT
I have Guide Gun in .45-70 Govt. I added Ashley Outdoors ghost ring sights, Ashley Outdoors lever scout scope mount. On top of that sets a Leupold Scout Scope in Leupold Quick Release Weaver Style Rings. I suppose it is about as good as griz medicine gets. I think if I were going into griz country I would leave the "wimpy" (as if anything this heavy could be construed as wimpy) 300 gr. Nosler Partition Winchesters at home and pack the real heavyweights. 535 gr. hardcast Garrett Hammerheads. I have been trying to sell mine however as there is nothing on two or four legs in TX that needs this kind of firepower. I have pics of my setup if you want to see it email me.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 4:33:05 PM EDT
Tony's .458 SOCOM gets my vote. Second choice would be Marlin .450 then a Ruger SuperRedhawk in .454
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 4:40:10 PM EDT
You can either get something big and shoot the bear or take a .22 and shoot the person your with in the leg FOR the bear.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 4:46:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By doorgunner84: You can either get something big and shoot the bear or take a .22 and shoot the person your with in the leg FOR the bear.
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Its a good thing I wasn't drinking anything!! LOL [:D]
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 5:08:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2001 5:06:32 PM EDT by spider]
Another vote for one of Tony's big-bore uppers. I have a friend of mine, who's parents are quite well off. They took him fishing in Alaska about 4 or 5 years ago, & he decided he needed a pistol for "protection" from the grizzes. So his dad bought them matching Super Redhawks, to be worn across the chest. Their first day on the boat, the guide asked what the hoglegs were for. When they told him, he started laughing. "Better take off the front sights, then." he said. When asked why, he continued the laugh & replied "So when you shoot one, it won't hurt so bad when he shoves that pea shooter up your ass." I think that about sums it up.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 7:38:55 PM EDT
My wife and I have spent alot of time in the outdoors of Idaho and Montana,pretty much all of of free time. Came across much bear sign in my time and never had a problem. Hell, I have stepped in still steaming bear crap and still have never had a problem. But, I am always armed with a 12ga. with slugs. Better to be safe than sorry. Don't stress the bears. If you aren't walking around with a prime rib sandwich dripping out of you pocket and pouring bacon grease out next to your tent, you'll be fine.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 7:41:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wyo: "Have heard that at the sound of shooting, they will head your way thinking they can run you off and eat your game for you. True?" Very true! Particularly in NW Wyoming. Incidentally, the number of griz in the greater Y-stone area has ballooned in the last 20 years. For any of you who doubt the effectiveness of pepper spray, check out this web site and read the testimonials. www.udap.com
View Quote
Yeah, this is true. They love to eat an already field dressed elk. Hey, exactly where do you live Wyo? I am in SW Wyoming now where I grew up.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 7:47:17 PM EDT
I heard if you bring pepper spray, consider salt packets too. Season to taste. Seriously, 45-70 Marlin or 870 Remington as mentioned above. This is not a firefight.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 7:50:20 PM EDT
A 200 grain bullet from .300 win mag will leave him dead in his tracks
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 7:55:46 PM EDT
Just take a person with you that you can outrun!
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