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Posted: 6/14/2001 5:59:15 AM EST
I have a 1970 Ford XL convertible that I am about to restore and need some engine help. It has a 351 2bbl but I am not sure if it is a Cleveland or Windsor. Is this the same engine built at different plants or is their physical differences? How can you tell them apart by looking at the engine. I plan on restoring the outside and interior to original specs, but he engine is going to be slightly modified to the 300HP range. Any comments on the engine build up would be appreciated. Thanks Chris
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:04:10 AM EST
I believe you got you a Clevland. Clev are probably the best small block V8 ever made. Tons of HP. Get the 4v heads and let it breathe. I had a 69 Stang FB with a Clev
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:15:38 AM EST
You can tell by the heads. The clevelands are bigger. Windsors look more like a 302. Plus the widsors were built in canada. uhhhhhh!
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:37:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:41:12 AM EST
Look at the valve cover. The side toward the intake manifold. It it has one bolt in the center, holding the valve cover (there will be bolts at the corners) it's probably a Winsor. If it has 2 bolts it's probably a Clevland.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:48:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:54:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 7:19:10 AM EST
I'm not positive about this, but I am pretty sure. If pull a valve cover, a Windsor series engine should have all the rockers in a nice line. On cleveland engines, the itake and exhaust rockers are staggered a little. I am biased, 'cause I have a warmed over 302, which is a windsor series in my car. But I love the windsor series. Find a nice roller cam windsor, and thanks to the 5.0 performance aftermarket, you can hit pretty much any HP level you want. I have 285-300 hp 302 that is 100% reliable and streetable. Not alot by some means, but more than enough to get my into trouble FAST!
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 7:33:22 AM EST
If it has the original valve covers they will have a plate that says. If not this article may help. [url]http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/mblock.html[/url] It is about the 351M/400 but has a lot of info on the Cleveland since they are often confused and share many parts.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 8:06:29 AM EST
As stated above,the windsor is merely a bored and stroked 289/302 type block,the Cleveland is a horse of a different color.The valve covers on the cleveland will be much wider than the wimpsor and one will come up and have a raised flat section,also the upper radiator hose on the wimpsor will be fitted to the intake manifold the cleveland will pass in front of the intake manifold and go straight into the block.Dont be too dissapointed if you have the windsor,it`s really not that bad of a motor,just not as good for souping up as the cleveland.You should be able to get your target of 300h.p from the windsor,the cleveland should be able to make that much with a set of 4bbl heads from the junk yard,a good cam and a 4bbl manifold and carb.A friend once shoehorned a cleveland into a 65 fastback mustang,that thing was scary fast!2.25" intake valves really let that mamma breathe.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 9:20:06 AM EST
The heads interchange between the 289/302 and the windsor.The cleavland has great heads.The 2v are bigger than any factory small block heads.The 4v are too big for the street.The cleavland does have a weak block,but if your talking mostly street it shouldnt be a problem. Take a look at a 302 valve cover if its diffrent its a Cleavland.The windsor does have a raised block.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 9:21:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bossman: As stated above,the windsor is merely a bored and stroked 289/302 type block,
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The 351W is a same style block however; it has a 1/2" taller deck height for the longer stroke with the same bore (4" bore 3.5" stroke) to gain the extra displacement. You can make a 302 into a 347, you can make a 351 into a 408. Both with a .030 overbore. Yes, the Cleveland is awesome but you can make any Windsor put out some serious numbers.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 2:25:13 PM EST
I have a 351 Modified. Is that a Cleveland or Winsor modified?
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 3:13:00 PM EST
I owned a '70 Mustang Fastback with a Cleveland for 17 years. The easiest way is to look at the fuel pump. If the mounting bolts are horizontal of each other you have a Windsor. If the bolts are vertically aligned, you have a Cleveland. I loved that car and engine, they were awesome. A "Modified" is a Cleveland-based block.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 3:16:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 3:43:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2001 3:41:20 PM EST by critter_FR]
I miss mine. [:(] [img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1513476&a=11434535&p=47289611[/img] 11:88 all day long with a 289 and pump leaded regular, back when they made such a thing.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 4:51:28 PM EST
351 Modified is similar to the Cleveland Engine, Heads are basically the same but deck height and manifold width is different. They also made a 400M Clevelands are great engines but plan on spending more $$ than you would spend for any windsor upgrade. The 5th digit in the VIN number will tell you what engine is supposed to be in the vehicle but not what is actually in there as it may have been changed at one time. Clevelands have larger squarer heads than windsors. Once you have seen each there will be no mistaking them ever again. Easy ID = Windsor heads have a 6 bolt valve cover and the Cleveland/Modified has an 8 bolt valve cover. The 4bbl Cleveland was rated at 300 Gross HP while the Windsor 4bbl was rated at 290 HP. Either in 2bbl were rated at 250 HP.
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:01:30 PM EST
Stinger: There are several posts here that will help you determine Windsor vs Cleveland... Patriot Dave cites the differences in the valve covers. Once you notice the difference, you'll know at a glance. Cleveland covers have squarer corners , and they have eight hold-down bolts... four along the top and four along the bottom. Johnnie G Tyler mentions the fuel pump bolt pattern. The Cleveland pump has a vertical pattern, while the Windsor pump has the bolts positioned on the sides of the pump. Matt S is right about the rocker arms... the Windsor rockers are, indeed, all lined up. The Cleveland rockers are staggered, much like a big-block Chevy. Another thing to look at is the block itself... a Cleveland engine has the timing chain housing cast as a part of the block with a sheet-metal timing cover, and the Windsor has an aluminum timing chain housing onto which the fuel pump bolts. Bossman is right about the thermostat housings. The Windsor thermostat is in the front of the intake manifold, and the Cleveland 'stat is in the block. There are exceptions to every rule: The Boss 302 has a Windsor block with Cleveland-style heads! (It also has a special intake manifold which allows this) Glad to see that we have some knowledgable Ford mechanics here. FITTER out
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:29:06 PM EST
Unless you're planning on building a 7,000+ rpm motor (not recommended, if long term durability is a concern) keep the 2bbl heads and use an aftermarket 4 bbl manifold designed to work with those heads. The smaller ports will give you a nice torque curve up to about 6,000 rpms. The 4bbl heads worked ok, but they only realized their full potential in all out race applications. I have a 94 T-Bird that's going to get an HP boost when it dies (165,000 miles and counting) and it will be in the form of a 1970 351c with 2bbl heqads. Ford reduced the compression ratio on the 71 and newer engines, by increasing chamber volume I believe, so 1970 is the cleveland motor of choice. I wanna teach a few punks around here, with their new Cobra Mustangs, a few things about horsepower. [:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2001 6:57:06 PM EST
Thanks guys for the info. It's in My '77 F150 4x4. On it's second rebuild and still going strong.
Link Posted: 6/15/2001 7:32:51 PM EST
I tend to disagree with most of regarding the cleveland vs. windsor. If you plan on living above 7000rpm the cleveland would be great. Below that the cleveland heads are pigs especially the 4bbl heads with the giant intake valves and intake ports. All you need to do is look at how slow the BOSS302 was in the 1/4mile. If I had to run a cleveland I would run the 2bbl heads with the 2bbl intakes and the biggest exhaust valves I could get. To truly run good you are still gonna have to spend big dollars on the exhaust ports. In the past the knock on 302/351 windsors was the heads. That is not true anymore as TFS, Eldebrock, Dart. and a host of others make some really good heads at decent prices for the windsors. Critter, unless you are planning to gear up that rear end in your bird and build up that cleveland a bit a new model stickshift mustang would eat you up. Horsepower isnt everything and your bird is gonna be tipping the scales so to speak. I think you would be much happier putting in a 302/351 windsor. Besides the fact that as a daily driver they could easily run with a cleveland you have to think about the hassle with installing the cleveland in your bird. You don't know if your brackets will line up right, your electrical will be a pain. Are you going to run carb. vs injection? Will you be able to find a oilpan that will fit? What kind of exhaust would you run? The smallblock windsor would be a simple swap if you bird all ready has a 5.0. If I had the money I would put a vortec supercharged 408 stroker in your t-bird. Pass it off as a 302 to the knuckleheads and rip the doors off their mustangs.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 7:38:26 AM EST
Stinger, [i]if[/i] it is a Cleveland I will offer a couple of suggestions on the build up. Bear in mind I am not a mechanic and know dang little about Fords in general. But I am somewhat of an expert on Big Block Cheverolets and the Cleveland shares very many similarities and what I'm telling you I have seen work on them in the past quite succesfully. To get the best of all worlds use the 4v heads with the larger valves and large runners. Keep your compression reasonable to pump gas at around 9:1 up to 9.5:1....no more for pump gas. Use a dual plane intake. I prefer Weiand but there are good arguments for Eldelbrock in these type of street appliations. Camshaft selection is what will allow you to run the big heads and take advantage of them on the street. The trick is to use wide lobe centers. Some where in the neighborhood of 112 to 114 degrees will get you where you need to be. Run a little longer duration on the order of 260 to 270 degrees at .050 lift. The wider lobe centers will let you get away with this. Keep the lift down to something reasonable on the order of .500 to .550 lift. Due to valve size and placement in the head favor lift and duration by approximately 10 on each. In example, lift .530/.540 intake/exhaust....duration 260/270 degrees intake/exhaust. This will require a custom ground cam of course. I like Lunati but they are pricey! This will give you an engine that will have a smooth idle at 600 to 700 RPM's, create plenty of low end vacuum and breath freely to 7000+ RPM's. If you keep your toe out of it mileage will not be [i]that[/i] bad. But when you want something to kick ass apply toe will rock the idiot next to you. If you stay within close to the factory displacement of 351 cubic inches stick with a carb in the 600 to 650 cubic feet a minute area. Do [i]not[/i] over carb it. Even though you will have good vacuum I do not recommend vacuum secondary carbs such as the Holley 4160 series. Instead go with ol' reliable the Holley doulbe pumper in the 4150 series. Electronic ignitions are your friend. Shit can the points ingnition if you have one and replace it. "Smaller" 1.5" primary tube headers are the best for an application this small for best flow. But then again I am not a mechanic and do not play one on the Internet. Good luck and have fun.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 5:37:02 PM EST
Ah Gunslinger, gotta disagree. You are going to have a very hard time getting the compression down to 9-9.5:1 with 4v heads unless you run some really dished pistons. Also I would not run intakes greater than 2.19. The intake side breathes too much as it is. I never ran anything less than a 750cfm carb on a cleveland. The best one I ran was a 778cfm ford holley(vacum secondary), loved the ford 735-778cfm holleys. If you can find a 72 351HO aluminum intake they work pretty good despite the fact you have to use a spacer as they are spreadbore. Can't disagree about the electronic ignition, hated screwing around with points. Also Lunati cams do kick ass.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 5:43:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2001 5:53:05 PM EST by critter_FR]
Originally Posted By Atencio: I tend to disagree with most of regarding the cleveland vs. windsor. If you plan on living above 7000rpm the cleveland would be great. Below that the cleveland heads are pigs especially the 4bbl heads with the giant intake valves and intake ports. All you need to do is look at how slow the BOSS302 was in the 1/4mile. If I had to run a cleveland I would run the 2bbl heads with the 2bbl intakes and the biggest exhaust valves I could get. To truly run good you are still gonna have to spend big dollars on the exhaust ports. In the past the knock on 302/351 windsors was the heads. That is not true anymore as TFS, Eldebrock, Dart. and a host of others make some really good heads at decent prices for the windsors. Critter, unless you are planning to gear up that rear end in your bird and build up that cleveland a bit a new model stickshift mustang would eat you up. Horsepower isnt everything and your bird is gonna be tipping the scales so to speak. I think you would be much happier putting in a 302/351 windsor. Besides the fact that as a daily driver they could easily run with a cleveland you have to think about the hassle with installing the cleveland in your bird. You don't know if your brackets will line up right, your electrical will be a pain. Are you going to run carb. vs injection? Will you be able to find a oilpan that will fit? What kind of exhaust would you run? The smallblock windsor would be a simple swap if you bird all ready has a 5.0. If I had the money I would put a vortec supercharged 408 stroker in your t-bird. Pass it off as a 302 to the knuckleheads and rip the doors off their mustangs.
View Quote
I'm going to building a pro-street style toy out of the T-Bird. I like the 2bbl cleveland motors, and with the right pistons and cam shaft, they will produce more than enough hp to deal with the locals. I'm going to build up an FMX auto, and narrow a 9 inch rear for it. I'll decide on the ring and pinion ratio when the time comes, but I am expecting to build it into a low 11s high 10s car. Anything that is not available commercially, I can make, or have made. I'm even planning on having working AC. [:)] I had a 71 convertible mustang, that I built a 2bbl headed 1970 cleveland motor for. It ran very nicely. But my 65 mustang was my favorite. I got more horsepower out of that little 289 than I ever dreamed I could. Russ' Speed World in Farmingdale, NY did the work for me. Mike Magistro knew how to build a motor. I wonder if he's still around?
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 6:02:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2001 6:10:33 PM EST by critter_FR]
Originally Posted By Atencio: Ah Gunslinger, gotta disagree. You are going to have a very hard time getting the compression down to 9-9.5:1 with 4v heads unless you run some really dished pistons. Also I would not run intakes greater than 2.19. The intake side breathes too much as it is. I never ran anything less than a 750cfm carb on a cleveland. The best one I ran was a 778cfm ford holley(vacum secondary), loved the ford 735-778cfm holleys. If you can find a 72 351HO aluminum intake they work pretty good despite the fact you have to use a spacer as they are spreadbore. Can't disagree about the electronic ignition, hated screwing around with points. Also Lunati cams do kick ass.
View Quote
I have to agree with you on carb selection. If you're going to run anywhere between 6500 and 7000 rpms, you need somewhere in the 750 cfm range. I believe my old cleveland had a 750 dp holley on it, but that was back in 1979, so my memory escapes me. If you run the 2bbl heads, you start out with a comp ratio of 9.5 to 1 I believe. I think the 4bbl heads yielded a 10.5 to 1 ratio. I always had good luck with Competiton Cams. Are they still in the business? My 289 ran great with one of their grinds. I ran solids and roller rockers, and the cheapest pushrods money could buy. I like a cheap, easy to fix weak link in my valve train. I liken them to an inline fuse. Better to blow a fuse than burn up the wiring harness.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 6:26:28 PM EST
Well I looked and it is a Windsor. I do not plan on driving this car daily so gas mileage is not an issue. Just want to have a little fun with it. Chris
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 11:34:01 PM EST
351W is NOT a stroked and bored 302. Same class of blocks but not the same. If that was the case, since they take the same heads, they would also have the same intake manifold. Which they don't. Have you considered stroking it? You can go to 427 (and higher) and keep the weight of a small block.
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