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Avtomat
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:17:07 PM
[Last Edit: 11/12/2004 9:17:27 PM by Avtomat]
Some have argued that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable indoor self defense round. Here's anecdotal evidence of its effectiveness:



Print, weapon experts testify

A firearms expert on Thursday testified that two spent shell casings he examined came from a 20-gauge shotgun allegedly used during a 2002 bloodbath that left six members of a Crenshaw County family dead.

However, a state fingerprint expert, testifying in the trial in Crenshaw County Circuit Court, said he could not match the fingerprints of defendant Westley Devon Harris to the arsenal of weapons believed to have been used in the slaughter and shown to the jury.

They include five shotguns, one rifle and one revolver.

Harris, 24, is charged with six counts of capital murder in the August 2002, shooting deaths of his girlfriend's family. The victims were Mila Ruth Ball, 62; JoAnn Ball, 35; Willie Hasley, 40; Jerry Ball, 19; Tony Ball, 17; and John Ball, 14.

Joe Saloom, a tool and firearms expert for the state forensics laboratory, said two of three spent shell casings found at the crime scene matched a .20-gauge Mossberg pump-action shotgun recovered by law enforcement officers.

Saloom said he examined many other pellets and bullet fragments from other weapons that he could not scientifically match, but "could not be excluded" as matches.

Most of the recovered shotgun pellets, wads and casings were 20-gauge, No. 8 shot, manufactured by Federal Firearms, Saloom said.


www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5ONHARRIS12.htm
SevenMMmag
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:18:48 PM
SevenMMmag
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:19:20 PM
but still better than nothing
Sin_Bin
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:19:22 PM
Close range, of course it'd be deadly. I still advocate slugs, 00 and 000 buckshot.

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1Andy2
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:21:44 PM
someone should try making an intermediate shot size. like .177 pellets or something.
mace
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:32:51 PM
Maybe at real close range, like if you live in an apartment, with no long-distance shots and serious danger of over-penetration hitting bystanders through walls.
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squeezecockerp7m8
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:36:51 PM
Mossad Ayoob wrote a book on combat shotgunning (please don't ask me the name, the book is buried out in the garage) that had some really gross pics of 8 shot wounds...Let me tell you, something you definately don't want to get hit by at close range in the head. That is what I have for the house...
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:41:39 PM
[Last Edit: 11/12/2004 9:41:57 PM by MoparMike]
My 12ga sits loaded with 7 of these in the tube. But, the longest shot in my house is 13yds, and that requires that I stand in the kitchen sink.
AeroE
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:41:50 PM
At close range it will be like hitting with a 438 grain bullet (1 ounce load) - deadly, and useful.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:43:37 PM
I think it coes lots of damamge for a inch or so deep, after that it stops.

It wouldnt be my first choice
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markm
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:45:03 PM
You can't beat #8 in a coach gun! My ARs are just for plinking and to get attention at the range!
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ARDOC
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:47:36 PM
Most experts recommend #4 shot for inside the home defense rounds. They are effective enough against targets but will not penetrate most walls of home that will endanger family members.

9mm sucks for inside, they zip through sheet rock like there is no tomorrow. I am talking several layers. .223 will stop.
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qwijibo
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:50:49 PM
There's a difference between self defense rounds which need stopping power right-f'ing-now and murdering rounds, which can take quite a while to cause death.
Troy
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Posted: 11/12/2004 9:52:37 PM
Nearly any gun is deadly against an enemy that isn't fighting back and poses little threat to you. That's why such examples are so bad. No where does this talk about how quickly these people were incapacitated. It doesn't talk about what the deceased were armed with (likely nothing). And it seems pretty clear that the people who were shot had little ability or motivation to go on the offensive against the shooter.

My point is: this is the problem with so much anecdotal evidence; it doesn't take into consideration important elements like the determination of the people being shot to harm the shooter. And many people will use a story like this to arm themselves poorly against a determined criminal intent on doing harm, and put themselves and their loved ones in a far more danger than necessary.

These were executions, not defensive shootings.

-Troy
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mikejohnson
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:00:30 PM
#8 shot across a room with an 870 Express with standard choke will leave about a 2" hole in a 2x4. Question: what do you mean it will only penetrate about 1" or won't go through walls??? That is absurd.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:02:36 PM

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
#8 shot across a room with an 870 Express with standard choke will leave about a 2" hole in a 2x4. Question: what do you mean it will only penetrate about 1" or won't go through walls??? That is absurd.



When I did similar it only went about an inch or so
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mikejohnson
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:04:58 PM
then I must test #8 again - I did a lot of experiments with different guns and ammunition with solid boards, watermelons, etc....about 10 years ago
44magnum
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:09:20 PM
I know that it's different with people, but I've shot a lot of coons and ground hogs at close range with #8 shot and let me tell you, they did'nt get back up. On one hog I completely removed his head at about three yards. Thats from an 18" barrel with cylinder bore. On the other end of the spectrum, it once took me six 00 buck to drop a coon.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:13:33 PM

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
someone should try making an intermediate shot size. like .177 pellets or something.



They do, it's called "BB".
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pale_pony
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:17:17 PM

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Most experts recommend #4 shot for inside the home defense rounds. They are effective enough against targets but will not penetrate most walls of home that will endanger family members.

9mm sucks for inside, they zip through sheet rock like there is no tomorrow. I am talking several layers. .223 will stop.



No flame, but you may want to talk to ol_painless about that. He's one of our resident Barnyard Ballistics experts. Contrary to popular belief, while a .223 will break apart it will also clear a hell of a lot of sheetrock before it disintegrates.
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mikejohnson
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:17:34 PM
Question - what will happen if I shoot a slug with the modified choke installed??
arowneragain
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:19:12 PM
<---taking notes in this thread, in preparation for a new book that while set the ballistics world on its ear......





I was wrong!

Woohoo!
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:21:43 PM
Your questions answered here...www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
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woodbutcher223308
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:22:40 PM
[Last Edit: 11/12/2004 10:24:18 PM by woodbutcher223308]

My first tag,



Wife is curious.
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Taxman
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:24:04 PM

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
then I must test #8 again - I did a lot of experiments with different guns and ammunition with solid boards, watermelons, etc....about 10 years ago




I might try to pull out some lumber myself and try it, but my range gets pissy about shotguns.
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cmjohnson
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:28:55 PM
Finer shot at close range will result in mushy pulp for a wound instead of a series of perforations.

The damage to the area from a close range shot with high number shot will be radical and even if the victim survives the initial shooting, the damaged area is likely to become necrotic as it has essentially been pulped. Tissue can be destroyed beyond salvation by fine birdshot when the equivalent shot with heavier shot might result in a wound that is more recoverable.

The penetration of the individual pellets is going to be less at any given range, compared to larger shot sizes delivered at the same velocity.

At in-home combat ranges, the finer shot is likely to be just as deadly as heavier shot, and also less likely to cause significant collateral damage to bystanders or overpenetrate.


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Lockem
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:30:25 PM
Like they say, A .22 in the hand is better than a .45 left at home. However if you have any sense youll take the .45 with you instead.

I have shot possums and groundhogs before with birdshot and the things have still crawled off a good way before they died. Just imagine what a grown man could do. Yeah it would hurt but I seriously doubt that it would put anyone down just like that.

When I first bought a shotgun I got an econemy pack of birdshot shells. But once I found out that they were pretty useless for self defense I replaced the shot with BB's. It was a long proccess but BB's definately have a greater effect than birdshot.



But if you are insisting on using birdshot for self defense then aim for the crotch.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:30:33 PM
I'd use whatever gun of mine that's the closest to me at the time whether it be 12 gauge, 16 gauge, .40&W, 9mm, 7.62x39mm, .223, 7.65 Argentine, .22LR, 22 Magnum, 30Carbine, whatever. Any gun is better than nothing, and for the people that think they have their plan on what to use all figured out, if you need to use a gun on someone, it'll be when you least expect it so your plans will go out the window.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:33:04 PM

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
<---taking notes in this thread, in preparation for a new book that while set the ballistics world on its ear......




GOOD IDEA! There's a lot of solid info on this thread!!
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arowneragain
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Posted: 11/12/2004 10:35:42 PM

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
<---taking notes in this thread, in preparation for a new book that while set the ballistics world on its ear......




GOOD IDEA! There's a lot of solid info on this thread!!



I hope to be the first to tout the virtues of the .25 ACP and 2.5" .410 skeet load combo as a cheap, low-recoiling option for home defense.

And the tactical spring-piston airgun market is WIDE OPEN!!!
I was wrong!

Woohoo!
Troy
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Posted: 11/12/2004 11:05:09 PM
[Last Edit: 11/12/2004 11:05:55 PM by Troy]
What is the PRIMARY goal of a self-defense round?

-Troy
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Pangea
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Posted: 11/12/2004 11:13:43 PM
#6 shot from a .410 at 2 yds will drop a speedballin (heroin and cocain injected into the vein) #180 brother in law immediately. No follow up shot necessary. 12 ga would be even better.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 11:15:38 PM

Originally Posted By Troy:
What is the PRIMARY goal of a self-defense round?

-Troy


Everyone knows it's not the round that matters...it's the sound of the pump action

that scares away intruders.
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texastactical
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Posted: 11/13/2004 12:00:51 AM

Originally Posted By Flushdraw:
...it's the sound of the pump action that scares away intruders.



And I thought I was the only one tired of hearing that crap.
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Lumpy196
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Posted: 11/13/2004 12:27:43 AM
Only if you're a wanna-be thug loser pin head who bought a Federal Field Load Value Pack at Walmart to go do your weekend drive-by....




For the love of GOD.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 1:22:59 AM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2004 1:29:09 AM by AR15fan]
I have seen people shot at near contact range with birdshot who not only lived, but never lost consiousness. Including a 9yo girl who lost her arm and a kidney, but never lost consiousness, and a 15yo male who lived for 45 minutes, and remained consious for the first 44. Those were 12 gauge birdshot wounds and the muzzle was only inches from the victim's torso.

But if you want to trust birdshot to incapacitate a grown man, it's your funeral. My shotguns are loaded with Horn 00 Buck, Fed 000 Buck, or 1 1/4 oz Brenneke slugs depending on situation.
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C-4
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Posted: 11/13/2004 1:35:25 AM

Originally Posted By Troy:
What is the PRIMARY goal of a self-defense round?

-Troy



To incapacitate an attacker as quickly as possible through destruction of the brain, cervical spinal cord or from cardio-vascular collapse due to massive internal hemorrhaging.

#8 birdshot is absolutely devastating on sparrows.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 1:50:26 AM
thats like saying look a bunch of gang banger were killed witrh 25 aco so it must be the best damn load known to man,
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Troy
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Posted: 11/13/2004 3:37:08 AM

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Troy:
What is the PRIMARY goal of a self-defense round?

-Troy



To incapacitate an attacker as quickly as possible through destruction of the brain, cervical spinal cord or from cardio-vascular collapse due to massive internal hemorrhaging.



I concur, and circle gets the square.

Okay, so if the above is true (and it is), then should we choose ammo because people shot with it *eventually* die, or should we be looking for ammo that incapacitates people quickly?

-Troy
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Posted: 11/13/2004 3:39:31 AM
The only thing that could possibly make this thread better would be someone suggesting loading #8 in a side-by-side and insisting its better than an AR15 for home defense.


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Posted: 11/13/2004 4:14:16 AM
I suggest loading #8 into a side by side for home defense. It's actually better than an AR-15.
I give up.
qwijibo
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Posted: 11/13/2004 4:29:44 AM

Originally Posted By Troy:
What is the PRIMARY goal of a self-defense round?

-Troy



To neutralize the threat.

Ain't nothing more neutral than a hunk of lifeless meat on the floor.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 9:04:19 AM
I am such a troll.

BTW, some of these victims were shot in the head. They all knew the perp, and probably walked right up to him before he fired. Hopefully the sick bastard will get the death penalty
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Posted: 11/13/2004 10:04:16 AM
I have now reached the point where the only new thing I can learn from these "Best Ammo" threads is that there is nothing new to learn from these "Best Ammo" threads.

My home defense piece is a G23 with light, loaded with 180gr GDHPs. If more firepower is needed I have the BM M4 loaded with 55gr XM193.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 10:27:26 AM
This is the effect of using #4 shot, generally considered to be the most effective round for in close work:



For sheer stopping power, a slug round is hard to beat. This is what it does:

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Posted: 11/13/2004 10:43:30 AM

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The only thing that could possibly make this thread better would be someone suggesting loading #8 in a side-by-side and insisting its better than an AR15 for home defense.




I always keep my coach gun loaded with #8 by my bed! ARs are for looking cool at the range and bump firing wolf ammo through!

Besides you don't even have to aim the coach gun, you just point it and everybody dies! w00t!
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Posted: 11/13/2004 1:46:51 PM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2004 1:47:42 PM by SNorman]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The only thing that could possibly make this thread better would be someone suggesting loading #8 in a side-by-side and insisting its better than an AR15 for home defense.





DOOD, can you imagine letting loose with BOTH barrels? By my calculations, two #8 shells going off at the same time would be the equivalent of 120 rounds of .223, so an AR15 is useless unless you have a Beta-Mag and full auto.

Oh, and plus you really don't need to aim... you don't even need to get out of bed. You hear an intruder, you just point the thing in the direction of the sound and let 'er rip.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 1:54:50 PM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2004 2:01:03 PM by Lightning_P38]

Originally Posted By texastactical:

Originally Posted By Flushdraw:
...it's the sound of the pump action that scares away intruders.



And I thought I was the only one tired of hearing that crap.



After the first page, I was just doing the perfunctory read to teh end before posting a sarastic remark about the dealdly abilites of pumping a 12GA.

ETA: In my experience #8 birdshot at typical home defense ranges (less than seven yards) is not going to produce a very wide group, maybe an couple of inches, unless you are firing from a very short barrel, so shot placement would still be very critical.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 1:59:42 PM
If I were being attacked by birds, I would go for bird shot.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 2:08:57 PM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2004 2:11:45 PM by prk]
Slap me with a carp if I'm wrong, but:


Originally Posted By LWilde:
This is the effect of using #4 shot, generally considered to be the most effective round for in close work:

img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/LWilde/Buckshotstudy.jpg

For sheer stopping power, a slug round is hard to beat. This is what it does:

img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/LWilde/12GaugeFosterSlug.jpg




I guess I'm pretty ignorant about shotgun ammo. The first picture includes a label in the upper right, saying that the ammo was #4 buckshot. Where do you buy that?

Thank you, doctor Fackler, that will be all. Next witness, please.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 2:51:30 PM

Originally Posted By prk:
Slap me with a carp if I'm wrong, but:


Originally Posted By LWilde:
This is the effect of using #4 shot, generally considered to be the most effective round for in close work:

img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/LWilde/Buckshotstudy.jpg

For sheer stopping power, a slug round is hard to beat. This is what it does:

img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/LWilde/12GaugeFosterSlug.jpg




I guess I'm pretty ignorant about shotgun ammo. The first picture includes a label in the upper right, saying that the ammo was #4 buckshot. Where do you buy that?

Thank you, doctor Fackler, that will be all. Next witness, please.


So-called "tactical" No.4 buckshot
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