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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 6/11/2001 7:52:30 PM EDT
For those of you at the TMRS this weekend, I was shooting dirty guns. Just curious how long I can shoot an AR before it fails to function. I just keep adding some milsurp bore solvent into the bolt/carrier and they keep running. Geez, over a thousand rounds on the Bushy AK shorty and the M-16 Commando, no failures to report due to dirt yet. I do notice that when the dirty gun comes out of the safe it's a bit "gummy" and if you lower the bolt slowly it won't go into battery. A few drops of solvent into the action, cylcle the bolt 5 or 6 times, insert mag, blast away. How long do you suppose I can go on like this?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:38:20 PM EDT
Why would you want to put extra wear on your barrel?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:45:04 PM EDT
Nonsense, you put more wear on the barrel by cleaning it than not. I have a few guns that I only clean when they really need it. These are my work guns, not my pretty, keep all the fingerprints off, make sure they are shiney when I go to the range guns. Ive got an AR I havent cleaned in probably a year or so and its still going strong. It probably has a couple thousand rounds through it and I just occasionally spray some CLP on it to keep it lubed. I think keeping it oiled is more important that keeping it spotless. Michael
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:24:26 PM EDT
This is the way guns were meant to be used. Women, on the other hand...
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:29:52 PM EDT
I like to hear things like this. Just stock up on the CLP and the ammo and everything should be fine.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:34:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mejames: Why would you want to put extra wear on your barrel?
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yeah, I know this was already covered, but help me with your logic here. Carbon gunk in the bolt effects the barrel how? The barrel and chamber are chromed, and as such wipe down 1 hour or 10 years after shooting. BTW, this is a good reason to own a chromed chamber/barrel. I wouldn't think of not cleaning out the barrel on my Rem 700 immediately after I got home.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:35:17 PM EDT
How does running a cleaning patch down the barrel wear it out?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:39:08 PM EDT
Hell, I think part of the fun of shooting is cleaning up after.... guess that just me
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:52:14 PM EDT
It's just you. If I hit the lotto, I'm hiring a guy full time to clean my guns. Want add will read like this: "Gun cleaner wanted. $30,000. You don't do squat until I go shooting. Then, just clean my guns." Think how much shooting you could do if you didn't have to clean. You could shoot sunup to sundown.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 8:10:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M15A2: I like to hear things like this. Just stock up on the CLP and the ammo and everything should be fine.
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Ditto the above! However, I do clean them on rainy days when there's nothing better to do. Three guns I NEVER really worry about though are my 10/22, Ruger Mark I and Glock.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 8:16:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ticonderoga: It's just you. If I hit the lotto, I'm hiring a guy full time to clean my guns. Want add will read like this: "Gun cleaner wanted. $30,000. You don't do squat until I go shooting. Then, just clean my guns." Think how much shooting you could do if you didn't have to clean. You could shoot sunup to sundown.
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Consider this my application. I don't mind a good gun scrubbing once and awhile.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 8:38:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 8:56:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Are some of you saying, in effect, that the AR-15 functions BETTER dirty/all crapped up rather clean and properly lubed? If so, it's the first machine I've ever heard of that was so designed. Range shooting/tests-to-failure are one thing, but if the AR was ever needed for serious purposes, I'd rather mine started out cleaned and lubed... NOT a flame.
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No, thats not what Im saying at all. Im not saying that it functions better dirty, but I haven't noticed it functioning any worse either as long as it is lubed. I just don't really see the point in cleaning it every time it gets used. There aren't many machines that need to be cleaned every time they get used besides some very high precision industrial machinery. I think of it like changing the oil in my car. It would probably be better if you changed the oil every time you drove it, but nobody I know does that and a car is a much more precision piece of machinery than an AR. Mejames- Ive seen several guns with barrels that were damaged by improper cleaning. Usually with damage to the crown. These barrels would have definately been in better shape if they had been left dirty, unless shot with corrosive ammo of course. Im just stating what I have observed with my own firearms. Usually when I clean them, its just because Im tired of looking at dirty guns. Honestly, how many of you have any any problems with a quality firearm because you didn't clean it after every single time you shot it? I would wager very few if any at all, assuming it was still lubed. I have no problems with people wanting to keep their firearms clean a lubed at all times. I just don't hold that as high a priority as some. I would rather spend some of that time I would use cleaning my guns on shooting them instead. To each his own. Michael
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 8:57:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 9:03:50 AM EDT
Ive shot enough through a colt I had that I had to replace the gas rings before I cleaned it for the first time. They only get dirty to a point, then they start blasting away the old crud with the new crud. At least anywhere that matters. Ive found that the only thing that makes a dirty gun stop working is too much oil, it mixes with the carbon and crud and turns into "gunglue". As for the barrel, after you fire about 10 rounds the barrel wont get any dirtier. There is too much pressure in too little space for any more fouling to accumulate.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 9:19:54 AM EDT
If somebody cleans his gun with a cheap rod and no bore guide, well thats what he gets. I think of it this way. Each shot constitutes 1 use. If I shoot 200 rounds, thats 200 uses. I like to clean my guns before I put them away, because the crud tends to absorb moisture. It may not cause any pitting, but why take a chance. I spent too much money on them to take that risk.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 10:32:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2001 11:40:04 AM EDT by Kevin]
I don't advocate running a 1,000rds. through a gun and never cleaning it but it is nice to know that the gun can handle it isn't??? If the AR is so sensitive that it REQUIRES cleaning after every use then I'm going to switch to an AK. Most of us clean our guns on a pretty regular basis regardless. But sometimes a quick trip to the range can be squeezed in if I don't have to worry about coming home and spending a 30-40 minutes cleaning firearms.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 10:39:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2001 10:42:26 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
AR's ARE NOT THAT FINICKY. From [url]http://communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite&naventryid=192[/url]
AR-15 Reliability By Troy (forum moderator at AR15.com) Editor's Note: Troy is the author of the expanded Magazine FAQ and a knowledgeable person on the AR-15 rifles. He currently moderates the Magazine Forum at AR15.com. This was orginally posted in the General Discussion Forum in March 14, 2001. My BM (Bushmaster) M4 is up to 7000 rounds with no cleaning, just a shot of CLP before heading out to the range. It is truly filthy, but it runs along fine. My only stoppages happened when trying out a brass catcher, where brass would occasionally bounce back into the action. Using a barrier to catch brass instead resulted in no stoppages. This most recent ammo was Win Q3131, which is a bit dirtier than the SA (South African) and Fed AE ammo that I had been shooting. Still, the 2000-stamped Q3131 worked fine, unlike some of those early 99-production lots. I'm probably gonna give up and clean the thing. At this point, it has proved plenty reliable enough, but it's getting my case dirty now. Note that this upper has a 5.56 chamber, and is fully chrome-lined, which help assure reliable feeding and extraction. Your results, especially with tight, out-of-round, off-center, or unlined chambers may vary. Oh, BTW, I tried some handloads with 23.1gr AA2200 powder & Hornady 50gr V-Max bullets and got a sub-MOA (.96") 10-shot group at 100 yards off the bench out of this rifle. You can keep your AKs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just so it's clear: this wasn't 7000 in one single session, but over almost a year, typically about 400-600 rounds per outing. I was specifically testing reliability in a situation where cleaning wasn't possible. As I said, I *did* squirt a big shot of CLP onto the bolt carrier before each outing, so there was *some* passive cleaning, but no bore snakes, patches, cleaning rods, solvant, etc. Keld, one of our members from Denmark, reports that during their trials before adopting the Canadian C7A1 (a flat-top M16A3), they had a similar test that reached 15000 rounds before failure. Again, this may or may not be typical performance. This is mearly one example, and my rifle is otherwise well-maintained, and isn't subjected to mud, rain, or other abuses common in the field. Still, it kinda gives you a warm fuzzy, huh? -Troy
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Link Posted: 6/12/2001 11:04:32 AM EDT
You are committing weapon abuse. The cops and the humanitarian UN should be called on you.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 11:28:21 AM EDT
When I bought mine, I was told to just keep it wet with some G96. Several people have told me they have gone a year+ without cleaning. I don't count the rounds, I just figure when it looks real bad or I've got nothing to do I'll clean it.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 11:45:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Waldo: If you want to shoot dirty guns, that's fine, really! I prefer to clean mine after shooting them. That way I have a physiological edge when I have to retrieve them and use them in a "situation"
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Oh, silly me. I had just ASSUMED that everyone had more than one AR & a dozen other rifles [:p] sure there is another clean one in the cupboard!
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 11:47:15 AM EDT
Just so it's clear: this wasn't 7000 in one single session, but over almost a year, typically about 400-600 rounds per outing. I was specifically testing reliability in a situation where cleaning wasn't possible. As I said, I *did* squirt a big shot of CLP onto the bolt carrier before each outing, so there was *some* passive cleaning, but no bore snakes, patches, cleaning rods, solvant, etc. Keld, one of our members from Denmark, reports that during their trials before adopting the Canadian C7A1 (a flat-top M16A3), they had a similar test that reached 15000 rounds before failure. Still, it kinda gives you a warm fuzzy, huh? -Troy
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[b][red]Music to my ears!!![/red][/b]
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 11:50:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ticonderoga: Oh, silly me. I had just ASSUMED that everyone had more than one AR & a dozen other rifles [:p] sure there is another clean one in the cupboard!
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They (ARs) do tend multiply don't they!!
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 12:54:44 PM EDT
If you guys go over to Snipercountry.com under 'Miscellaneous' they have an article on barrel break-in. I think it applies to this topic as well. BTW, I WAS going to buy an AR this weekend but bought two NIB SAR-1s with 3 new military issue 30 round mags (each) for 600 clams. Sorry, but the extra money I saved about 400$ (Im looking at the RRA Tactical Elite for 1K) I put towards a new Remmington 700P LTR - Now that puppy is sweet. Makes a good girlfriend to my heavy 700 PSS. Concerning the dirty issue. Ive got about 3000 rounds through my SKS and if functions flawlessly. Still cant hit shit though!!
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 12:57:33 PM EDT
HEY EVERYONE!!!! I JUST MADE MEMBER WITH THAT LAST POST!!!! I....I, THINK IM GONNA CRY....
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 2:03:51 PM EDT
I've put upwards of over 3,000 rounds through some of my ARs before cleaning them and they were still running fine. However, lately I have been shooting a lot of IMI M855 and that stuff must be dirty, because I didn't make it much farther than 1,000 rounds before my M4gery got so clogged up with carbon sludge that the firing pin could longer be driven with enough force to ignite the primer. Still, I have complete confidence in the AR. Most of the critics who whine about it needing to be cleaned all the time don't know jack about it other than what they heard on some TV show.
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 2:06:10 PM EDT
Nawww, can't let that happen ;-)). I have a friend with a post ban Colt CAR15 he cleans only when he cannot stand it any longer. I personally observed him shoot that rifle for a year before cleaning. Now he did not shoot it every time out, so he had about 1500 rounds through it, maybe 2000 as I recall. He doesn't add extra lube or anything. It drives me nuts to see this kind if thing. Shoot, he has an M1A1 with a match barrel and does the same thing with it. Only when the accuracy degrades, which is usually about 800 to 1200 rounds does he clean it. I feel like they are sitting there corroding away or something if I do not clean 'em after a shoot. Am I obsessive / compulsive or what? Well, maybe just a little abbynormal. hahahaha
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 2:40:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 2:51:38 PM EDT
Someone mentioned not cleaning their 10/22 above somewhere. My AR's shoot fine when dirty, but that 10/22 jams and misfeeds like mad after about 300 rounds or so. I typically get stovepipes on ejection and those pesky ramp feed jams that dent the bullet or casing. I once had a round fire-off without the bolt fully closing and it blew brass and (I assume) lead out the ejection port. I didn't get hurt badly, but my right hand and face got stung. I now religiouly clean the crap out of that rifle and my other rimfires on a regular basis. Even during shoots. CS
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 3:42:24 PM EDT
Ticonderoga, I have been doing the same thing for years. I have never cleaned my any of my firearms each time I shot them, unless they will sit for an extended period of time. Say if I went to the range every night this week and fired 250 rnds an evening. Then wouldn't be able to shoot again for a month, I would clean them just before the gun was put into storage. The exception would be if they say rain or snow, then I would clean them, right away. Of course if I was shooting my Mausers and using corrosive ammo, I clean ASAP when I get home!!! But I do not think we are talking about corrosive ammo here?? I do wipe down the bolt and add a drop or to of CLP from time to time. Call me a slob, but it works for me. OSA
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 4:19:13 PM EDT
Coversix, I think they were talking about cleaning the barrel when they were referring to the .22lr. There are many of us out here who NEVER clean the barrels of our .22s. There is no need and it negatively affects accuracy when you do clean them. Though there are always people on the other side of this fence issue as well, so Im not trying to start a flame war here. I once had the same thing happen to me that occured to you in regards to a .22 firing out of battery because it was dirty. I am assuming that was the cause. It was on a Marlin rifle, which I immediately cleaned up and returned to the place where I had purchased it. Now I only own Ruger 10/22s and have never had a major problem out of either of them. Their .22s are really hard to beat. Michael
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 4:43:42 PM EDT
A while back when I owned my first Bushmaster AR (1989 or so) I didn't bother to clean the bolt/carrier as I didn't buy it with instructions & was to ignorant to learn. After I did learn, I just didn't find the need to clean it as I never shot it anymore. Anyway, an old armor buddy of mine found it in my safe last year & wanted to clean it for me. Keep in mind this is 11 years since I started shooting it. It took some serious chipping on the bolt to remove the carbon (left it for a few days in a CLP bath), the extractor spring was pretty much shot & full of crap. Lets just say the bolt/carrier had seen 8,000+ rounds of every kind of ammo out there, over an 8 year period (I hadn't shot it much lately). I didn't lube the gun for the first 3 or 4 years, just swabbed down the barrel :) Yeah, I wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but the gun WORKED!
Link Posted: 6/12/2001 8:04:03 PM EDT
This is all music to my ears as well.
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