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Posted: 6/11/2001 6:12:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2001 12:35:34 AM EDT by RandallFlag]
Timoty McVeigh was definitely a murderer, and for that I fully support his punishment. However, he was also a man of courage and conviction. He believed in his cause, had the guts to carry it out, and took responsibility for his actions. Although I do not support his killing of innocent life, I understand why he thought it was necessary to his overall plan. A building is just a building and can be replaced. Human life is irreplaceable and he knew it would create a much larger impact. And Timothy McVeigh was looking for major impact and attetion to what the government was doing to [b]OUR[/b] rights more than anything else!! And when he got caught, not once did he try to blame others for what he did. He did not cry insanity or blame his mommy, he stood up straight and took it. He knew before he even started the plan that he would be caught and excepted his fate. Thru out the death penalty phase he controlled the whole process. By denying appeals he forced the governments hand to follow [i]his[/i] schedule. He knew that by doing this it would bring even more attetion to what he was trying to accomplish. Thru out the whole ordeal he never once gave in or bent over to the government he so despised. I resent the fact that Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people that day, for that I am glad he died, as I would have personally wanted to kill him myself. But I support what he was trying to do, and wish he could have done it without human casualties. He stood for what he believed in, I doubt that any of us would be anywhere near as willing to try to make a difference. One thing is for sure, Timothy McVeigh will not be forgotten for a long time, so he did somewhat accomplish his goal. Those that work in government building are just a little bit more cautious than they were before, so he did accomplish something. Randall Flag
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 6:31:12 AM EDT
The problem is that the Fed's put non-combatants, babies & old people, in with the enemies McVeigh was after. He wanted to get the door-kickers and snipers and their boses, but he'll be known forever as the guy that blew up a building with day care and social security offices. Norm
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 6:50:46 AM EDT
True..but the people that work in government offices will always be wondering.........can it happen again?? Randall Flagg
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 6:54:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 6:55:57 AM EDT
I'll remember Vicki Weaver.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:01:06 AM EDT
I'll remember Viki, and her son, and the children at Waco.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:01:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ECS: I'll remember Vicki Weaver.
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And Sammy, too.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:11:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:52:46 AM EDT
Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed, Beyond this place of wrath and tears Looms but the Horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years Finds, and shall find, me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul Tim Mc Veigh's last words
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:08:58 AM EDT
I don't think he won. He seriously cripple the militia movement in this country. Before the bombing, unorganized militias were growing. After the bombing, a lot of people who were "on the fence", did not want to be associated with any kind of militia. Overall, I think he hurt the anti-government cause. This is just my opinion, but if his goal was to reduce governmental power, he failed miserably.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:09:29 AM EDT
McVeigh may have got what he wanted, but he completely destroyed any hope for his cause. From now on, anyone who stands up for the same beliefs (peacefully) that McVeigh had, they will be compared to the "Oklahoma City Killer." This will include anyone who struggles to regain our lost freedoms and people who dare question our government. Sorry to rain on the parade, but it is not McVeigh who won. Not even those associated with his cause. It is the "big government" nazis and the people who have been taking our rights away. It is THEIR victory for putting this killer to death. My 2 cents.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:10:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mejames: I don't think he won. He seriously cripple the militia movement in this country. Before the bombing, unorganized militias were growing. After the bombing, a lot of people who were "on the fence", did not want to be associated with any kind of militia. Overall, I think he hurt the anti-government cause. This is just my opinion, but if his goal was to reduce governmental power, he failed miserably.
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DAMN! You beat me by 30 seconds! [beer]
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:13:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By El Kabong: ...I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul Tim Mc Veigh's last words
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He might have been the "captain of his soul", but right about now, I believe his soul is meeting it's new commander.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:21:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By El Kabong: Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed, Beyond this place of wrath and tears Looms but the Horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years Finds, and shall find, me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul Tim Mc Veigh's last words
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Timothy McVeigh used "Invictus" by William Ernest Henley, a poem published in 1875, for his last words. Like earlier Henley works as "A Love by the Sea" and "A Thanksgiving," it's an ode to strength in the face of suffering. -Troy [%(]
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:22:29 AM EDT
I am glad he is dead and will not be around to hurt anyone else. I say we outta use the death sentence more than we do (Go Texas) Deputy Moreland (the views above are stickly my personal ones and do not reflect on my department)
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:28:04 AM EDT
God creates souls not man....man is a created being..belonging soley to the one who made him...Tim McVeigh has just found out who "The Captain" really is...as he is now in the care of the tormentor ..the one in whose care McVeigh placed his own soul and body...as Jesus Himself has said.."Fear not those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can caste both body and soul into hell...Timothy McVeigh is now being tormented in hell night and day..ceaseless torture until the time of judgement at which point he and satan the third of the angels that are satans company and all who reject The Son of the living God..he is the captain of nothing..and is abandoned by the very God he thumbed his nose at...he is joined by all who refuse to confess their sinful nature and who repent and ask the Lord Jesus to forgive them and remake them.. For the Son of God came not to judge men but to save them..Had Timothy McVeigh as a child had his father teach him the words of the Lord Jesus and raised him to believe (perhaps he did and Timothy rejected this teaching) He would not (in my opinion) given in to the hate and bitterness that consumed him when he failed..he would have picked himself up and tried again..until he succeeded...he sought personal recognition and glory for himself in the murder of innocents..he was in the end no better than those he accused ....and in most ways worse for he had no mandate no right to make himself ..judge jury and executioner
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:30:17 AM EDT
amen.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:09:43 AM EDT
However, he was also a man of courage and conviction
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Bull! A man of courage does not plant a bomb in a building full on non-combatants and then flea. There is no justification for what he did, regardless of how you feel about the government and things they have done. He was a coward. To hell with anyone that believes that there was any justification for what he did.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:29:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:33:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DVD Tracker: Right idea, WAY wrong target.
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Well said.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:43:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: Bull! A man of courage does not plant a bomb in a building full on non-combatants and then flea.
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And neither does a bullet to Vicki Weaver.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:45:25 AM EDT
I've got to agree with mejames and Death-by-AR15 on this one. Timothy McVeigh hurt the anti-gov cause and the militias. Before he acted, regular people were standing up and joining the militia. The boys in Montana were about set to tell the gov to kiss off. Then this bomb goes off, and the media and gov blamed the militias. Now, if you say you are part of a militia in mixed company, you are labeled a traitor and right-wing kook before you can even begin to defend yourself! The rational side of me says Tim acted for the reasons he said, and all by himself; but the side of me that doesn't believe anything the gov says will always wonder-did he act alone? And if not, under whose orders did he operate?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:03:51 AM EDT
[b]quote 9divdoc: "Timothy McVeigh is now being tormented in hell night and day..ceaseless torture until the time of judgement at which point he and satan the third of the angels that are satans company and all who reject The Son of the living God..he is the captain of nothing..and is abandoned by the very God he thumbed his nose at...he is joined by all who refuse to confess their sinful nature and who repent and ask the Lord Jesus to forgive them and remake them..[/b] I take it you are "in his head" and "know his every thought" or maybe you are god and know all. If not....thank your bible thumping and go find someone else to condem to hell and satan. But thanks for your insite into his last private thoughts and moments.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:04:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: Bull! A man of courage does not plant a bomb in a building full on non-combatants and then flea. There is no justification for what he did, regardless of how you feel about the government and things they have done. He was a coward. To hell with anyone that believes that there was any justification for what he did.
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I disagree. Don't you think there comes a time when action [i]must[/i] be taken? And when that time does come, will you not chose the most effective meathod to achieve your goals or message? A meathod that would allow you to fight another day? During the revolutionary war the American Officers knew that they could not compete against the British using the current military meathods of war. Meaning large armies facing each other in rows in a field taking turns shooting each other. Thier solution was to hide behind trees,rocks and etc setting the Brittish up for an ambush, even shooting officers when possible!! These actions were called cowardly and uncivilized by the current governing body. Yet they were necessary for the revolutionary army to gain streangth. Once the Revolutionary Army had the streangth of numbers and experience they then faced the Brits face to face in the common conducts of war. This is what McVeigh did. As I said before I do not support the killing of innocent human life. However, If more groups/people actually started taking action towards the current government, then they would definitely start taking notice. For voting and writing letters is no longer working is it? I say now is a time for action, not necessarily violence or murder, but not just writing letters either. Somewhere in between is the answer. The government will continue to pass laws against freedom as long as the people of this country do nothing, and they have no fear of repercusions. [b]It's time we start doing something!![/b] Randall-Flagg
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:09:07 AM EDT
McVeigh was a coward, he snuck in and killed innocent people. There is the law and now those that did the shooting at Ruby Ridge will have to also be held responsible for their actions. There is no need for violence to bring any rights to the public. This is a free country, we can express our opinions. If he had done it it other country, he would have been beaten and tortured. Oh and anyone that shared his beliefs would have gone through the same. Yes there are problems in our country, but McVeigh and his kind are not the answer! THANK THE MILLION MOM MARCH, BEST RECRUITER FOR THE NRA!!
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:31:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2001 10:30:01 AM EDT by RandallFlag]
[b]Originally Posted By TheWind: McVeigh was a coward, he snuck in and killed innocent people. There is the law and now those that did the shooting at Ruby Ridge will have to also be held responsible for their actions.[/b] If you really think that the shooter at Rudy Ridge will ever get the same treatment as McVeigh(much less a trail) then you are a bigger optimst than I am...It ain't going to happen!! [b]This is a free country, we can express our opinions.[/b] True..but when was the last time your Congressman really listined to you?? Much less cared to even ask whaat you thought?? Fact is our opinions no longer count, politions have an aggenda that will continue until they start to feel fear!! Randall Flagg
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:33:51 AM EDT
FUCK McVeigh, fuck him to hell, and fuck each and every one of you who think that what he did was "good", "honorable" or "just".
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:36:32 AM EDT
Oh yeah, those stupid militias were really doing a great job! A bunch of beer-bellied wanna-bes running around in the woods. Some movement that was.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:37:52 AM EDT
To The Wind and LARRYG, my sentiments exactly. Big brother is around, we all know that, but how can anyone condone what McVeigh did? We have to find our answer to the problems we have, his answer is not mine.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:55:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind: There is no need for violence to bring any rights to the public. This is a free country, we can express our opinions. Yes there are problems in our country, but McVeigh and his kind are not the answer!
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Whats the name of this perfect world you live in?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 11:05:23 AM EDT
Clearfire, please be as passionate in your desire for justice and punishment when it comes to others besides McVeigh. We have a former president who committed virtually every crime in the book and walks about as a free and wealthy man, we have federal agents who have murdered our citizens and they receive medals in secret ceremonies in closed hangars in Oklahoma City. Until the law applies to every man equally (this is justice), there will be, unfortunately, other acts by those who feel the frustration over injustice. Where is the leader who will stand for justice. Mr. Bush, please stand for righteousness, please stand for justice, please stand against corruption!
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 11:39:53 AM EDT
I find it strange that there have been no McVeigh "coppy cats". Especally if he was supposedly not a lone mad man. This is wierd because every time there is a high profile mass murder, there are coppycat crimes. Most school shootings were, at least in part, coppycat crimes, people who were also disturbed getting a idea of how act through the mass media. So why has no one else tried this, on a greater or lesser scale in the last six years. Or was McVeigh really soo out there that it makes him unique and the nutballs dont think they are able to copy him? Or were they just waiting for his execution for a excuse? Are we going to see a lot of things blowing up in the next year or two? Any thoughts?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 12:00:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: I find it strange that there have been no McVeigh "coppy cats". Especally if he was supposedly not a lone mad man. This is wierd because every time there is a high profile mass murder, there are coppycat crimes. Most school shootings were, at least in part, coppycat crimes, people who were also disturbed getting a idea of how act through the mass media. So why has no one else tried this, on a greater or lesser scale in the last six years. Or was McVeigh really soo out there that it makes him unique and the nutballs dont think they are able to copy him? Or were they just waiting for his execution for a excuse? Are we going to see a lot of things blowing up in the next year or two? Any thoughts?
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Unfortunately, I believe this may be the case. It would seem that there are or would be people who are like minded to McVeigh's and they may simply be taking the time to be more thorough and careful. If this is the case, it won't be good!
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 12:29:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ClearFire: FUCK McVeigh, fuck him to hell, and fuck each and every one of you who think that what he did was "good", "honorable" or "just".
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Come, tell us how you really feel! Quit beating around the bush! What if McVeigh had done this exact same thing in some foreign country while in the service of our government. Would you then say that it was "good", "honorable", and "just" or would tell every serviceman to fuck off and condemn them to hell? I guess our good old government just doesn't appreciate having it's own tacticts used against it. I may not agree with the outcome of McVeigh's actions, but it is not my place to judge him or his motives. And even though he may have been extremely misguided, I at least give him some credit for having the conviction to act on his beliefs. That's certainly more than can be said for the rest of us who sit around bitching about having to pay $20 for a pre-ban magazine.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 1:27:41 PM EDT
Sorry, I gotta call BS on the whole "the winnder is McVeigh" line. McVeigh is only the winner if he wanted to totally discredit the "patriot movement" with the general public. Before he blew up the Murraugh Building, militia groups were on the rise, outrage was still high about Waco. Afterward, the militia movement crumbled, anyone who was anti-government was demonized and the only reason people speak of Waco is to mention that it was McVeigh's motivation. He KILLED his own cause long before he killed himself.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 1:41:48 PM EDT
originally posted by riddler
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By LARRY G: Bull! A man of courage does not plant a bomb in a building full on non-combatants and then flea. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And neither does a bullet to Vicki Weaver.
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I am tired of dildos like you comparing the two. One has nothing to do with the other. Yes, the agent was wrong to shoot Vicki Weaver, the children that died at Waco should not have died, but the children who died at Oklahoma City had absolutely NOTHING to do with either. There is no justification for what he did. Some have said the government purposely placed non-combatants in harm's way. What absolute bull. I am not too fond of them either, but that is a little over the top. Originally posted by Randall Flag
During the revolutionary war the American Officers knew that they could not compete against the British using the current military meathods of war. Meaning large armies facing each other in rows in a field taking turns shooting each other. Thier solution was to hide behind trees,rocks and etc setting the Brittish up for an ambush, even shooting officers when possible!! These actions were called cowardly and uncivilized by the current governing body
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Randall, they ambushed SOLDIERS, not unarmed non-combatants and children. How can you possibly compare the two? It is really a stretch to compare McVeigh to the revolutionaries of 1776.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 1:42:47 PM EDT
There are those in the government that can get away with horrible acts. That doesn't make what Tim McViegh did any less cowardly or horrible. It doesn't make it any more "right". There are those in the government that deserve what Tim got. That doesn't mean Tim didn't deserve it, or deserved it less. The man was a coward, and a terrorist. A patriot doesn't kill the innocent to send a message to the government.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 1:51:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: I am tired of dildos like you blah, blah, blah....
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What an intelligent response. No need to read any further into your blather.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 1:57:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Randall Flag:
Originally Posted By LARRY G: Bull! A man of courage does not plant a bomb in a building full on non-combatants and then flea. There is no justification for what he did, regardless of how you feel about the government and things they have done. He was a coward. To hell with anyone that believes that there was any justification for what he did.
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I disagree. Don't you think there comes a time when action [i]must[/i] be taken? And when that time does come, will you not chose the most effective meathod to achieve your goals or message? A meathod that would allow you to fight another day? During the revolutionary war the American Officers knew that they could not compete against the British using the current military meathods of war. Meaning large armies facing each other in rows in a field taking turns shooting each other. Thier solution was to hide behind trees,rocks and etc setting the Brittish up for an ambush, even shooting officers when possible!! These actions were called cowardly and uncivilized by the current governing body. Yet they were necessary for the revolutionary army to gain streangth. Once the Revolutionary Army had the streangth of numbers and experience they then faced the Brits face to face in the common conducts of war. This is what McVeigh did. As I said before I do not support the killing of innocent human life. However, If more groups/people actually started taking action towards the current government, then they would definitely start taking notice. For voting and writing letters is no longer working is it? I say now is a time for action, not necessarily violence or murder, but not just writing letters either. Somewhere in between is the answer. The government will continue to pass laws against freedom as long as the people of this country do nothing, and they have no fear of repercusions. [b]It's time we start doing something!![/b] Randall-Flagg
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Please give me an example where this country's founding fathers or any minuteman killed children just to make a point or to chapion a cause. McVeigh was a terroist pure and simple. a freedom fighter fights only those with whom they have a beef against. waiting lib or email me at www.draconian73@yahoo.com
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 1:59:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2001 2:00:21 PM EDT by LARRYG]
originally posted by boomer
I may not agree with the outcome of McVeigh's actions, but it is not my place to judge him or his motives. And even though he may have been extremely misguided, I at least give him some credit for having the conviction to act on his beliefs
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and
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By LARRY G: I am tired of dildos like you blah, blah, blah.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What an intelligent response. No need to read any further into your blather
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Yes, giving McVeigh credit for anything is real intelligent, isn't it. If you are going to quote me, at least have the courtesy to quote the entire thing. I did not type 'blah, blah, blah'. Calling people who support McVeigh even the slightest little bit a dildo may not be intelligent, but it is accurate. If it comes down to SHTF as some think, I will fight the combatants, not ambush innocent children. If McVeigh wanted to accomplish something, maybe he should have taken out the people that were responsible for Waco and Ruby Ridge. Maybe that was too dangerous for the 'courageous' McVeigh.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:01:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By LARRY G: I am tired of dildos like you blah, blah, blah....
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What an intelligent response. No need to read any further into your blather.
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You're right in that Boomer. Even if I agree with what came after, the insults result in a lack of credibility. Once insults are exchanged, two way communication becomes two one sided confrontations. Keep it passionate, but keep it a conversation.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:02:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:04:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stealth: There are those in the government that can get away with horrible acts. That doesn't make what Tim McViegh did any less cowardly or horrible. It doesn't make it any more "right". There are those in the government that deserve what Tim got. That doesn't mean Tim didn't deserve it, or deserved it less. The man was a coward, and a terrorist. A patriot doesn't kill the innocent to send a message to the government.
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I agree with your statements about McVeigh. Now how about some accountability for the gov't agents who've done some crimminal activities themselves. It's what we need to put a stop to the abuses. BTW, I wish Oklahoma could have carried out the sentence instead of the feds. I would much rather see states punish offenders. While the death sentence was warranted, I hope the feds don't get carried away killing their politically incorrect opposition.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:08:03 PM EDT
Stealth, you may be right. My apologies to Boomer for the name calling. I just don't understand how anyone can give McVeigh credit for being anything but a cowardly murderer.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:09:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
Originally Posted By Stealth: There are those in the government that can get away with horrible acts. That doesn't make what Tim McViegh did any less cowardly or horrible. It doesn't make it any more "right". There are those in the government that deserve what Tim got. That doesn't mean Tim didn't deserve it, or deserved it less. The man was a coward, and a terrorist. A patriot doesn't kill the innocent to send a message to the government.
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I agree with your statements about McVeigh. Now how about some accountability for the gov't agents who've done some crimminal activities themselves. It's what we need to put a stop to the abuses.
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I definitely wholeheartedly agree.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:13:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: Stealth, you may be right. My apologies to Boomer for the name calling. I just don't understand how anyone can give McVeigh credit for being anything but a cowardly murderer.
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I don't understand it either. I think that since they share some of his views on the government (as most of us do I believe), it somehow justifies his actions. It doesn't.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:37:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2001 2:44:47 PM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
Originally Posted By TheWind: There is no need for violence to bring any rights to the public. This is a free country, we can express our opinions. Yes there are problems in our country, but McVeigh and his kind are not the answer!
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Whats the name of this perfect world you live in?
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Could this be the mystical Utopia I've always heard about? [b]u·to·pi·a[/b] (y-tp-) [i]n.[/i] 1. a. often [b]Utopia[/b] An ideally perfect place, especially in its social, political, and moral aspects. b. A work of fiction describing a utopia. 2. An impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform. And before everyone starts jumping down my back, I sure as hell don't live there!
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:08:52 PM EDT
Hey, don't get me wrong. I am not lioninzing McVeigh. I think he got what he deserved. He did appear to have accepted responsibility and punishment for the crime commited while acting on his beliefs. My biggest problem is that the agents of the government who's actions set the stage for this sort of eventual terrorist attack just get to walk away with barely the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. There is no accountability.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:18:23 PM EDT
It doesn't matter if Little Timmy "HAD" conviction or not, he's burning in the pit of hell! Yes, we all should be able to take a stand for what we believe in. If people would actually stand up for their rights at all costs instead of sitting on their butts complaining about the loss of their rights (California)we could change things, but in the end, you still have to answer to God. It doesn't matter what noble things you've done in this life, only if you are living for God. If you aren't, bad news, you're going to be joinging Little Timmy in the pits of Hell, burning for all eternity!
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:25:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By frpcmanager: It doesn't matter if Little Timmy "HAD" conviction or not, he's burning in the pit of hell!
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Wow, who would have ever suspected that God posts on AR15.com under the assumed name of frpcmanager? Or are you just being a wee bit presumptuous?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:26:40 PM EDT
There goes the neighborhood.
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