[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/frame/direct.asp?SITE=dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010605/ts/mcveigh_filing_dc_4.html[/url]

Sure he had collaborators?  So what?  Does this mean he should be spared?  Heck no.

Kill him, and then find the rest.

This is according to McVeigh's lawyers.  Anyone can make a statement without proof.  We see it every day from HCI and MMM.  I find it hard to believe that they knew and did nothing and let those children die.  Why would they do that?  I don't trust the feds either, but I think this is preposterous.  And please don't use the worn out references to Waco and Ruby Ridge.

The Feds issued a nationwide warning in early April 1995 to be alert for 'terrorist' activity on or around Apr. 19.  This whole thing stinks.  McVeigh was in on it, probably knows who at least some of the players are, and still remains silent.  Mind control, or blackmail, or ???

OF COURSE THE FEDS KNEW, they wanted to scare people thinking there were terrorists in the country to further the agenda of gun control.

to them its  more mahem the merryer.

You know what always blows me away about Ruby Ridge was the casual way that Degan or one of the other deputy marshalls shot and killed the Weaver's dog right in front of Sammie Weaver, the 14 y.o. son of Randy Weaver.

When I go out to my Farm in the Panhandle, my beagle, Scooter, always runs out ahead of me.

If I were walking down the road and a cammo'd man leaps up and shoots Scooter, you damn well better believe that the NEXT shot fired will be the one that takes that MAN down, for good.

I would just be thinking 'He killed my dog, now he's gonna shoot me!'

And if I were in Harris' position of seeing both the dog and Sammie gunned down by a cammo'd man....well, I suppose that's why the jury acquitted him of murdering Degan.

They could be hollering anything they'd want, I wouldn't be listening.

Eric The(AndI'mBusyReloadingToo)Hun[>]:)]

Sure McVeigh was in on it.  But why were all the support colums of that building blown off at the same height as if there was a charge on them?  Why did that building fall stright down, as evidenced by the rebar pointing down, if that was such a mighty blast from the truck bomb?  Why did none of the other buildings have anything more than broken glass?  Why is it that the only ATF agents killed in the blast also happen to have been conected to Klinton?  Why was the building torn down so fast and then burried with a fence erected around it with guards?  Why were the ATF agents seen 3 blocks away in their SWAT gear an hour earlier?  These are just some of the troubling thoughts that cross my mind.

ADN

Waco, Oklahoma City, Ruby Ridge, each is liken to an onion in that there are layers upon layers to peal back before you get to the truth. Those responsible want people to think that one person could have pulled off the OK bombing. They ignore the early reports about more devices inside the building that they verified was there, and then nothing else is heard. I do not doubt that McVeigh is not involved, but he is not alone, and there is no way someone with his limited intelligence could have devised, planned, put together the logistics required, and carried it out by himself or with just one other person. The very nature of the building that had specific structural reinforcment in the Murrah building called for inside explosives, not a shit bomb. The government is up to its ears in complicity, and they know it. It's just that to many people are more at ease with killing one, than learning the truth. Look at what the early nazi's did with the reichstag (sp), and blamed it on others to ignite the populous to bring Hitler to power. Until this nation developes a backbone through their legislator's and the judiciary quits cowtowing to those in power, this and other events are only going to come to the forefront by the "right" who will always be ridiculed by the puppet journalist again controled by the power elite.

the ANFO bomb was equivalent to about 3,000 lbs of TNT. It had to knock out three columns with a blast radius of about 40 ft. Well within the capability of the bomb.

The rebar was pointing straight down because when the outside support columns were knocked out the concrete floor pivoted at the region of maximum moment. Concrete is great at compression but lousy at tension; so reinforced concrete adds steel rebar. The rebar simply pulled out when the concrete floor was pointing straight down. You can see pieces of the concrete floor still hanging by the rebar in photos.

The concrete crossbars failed at a classic 45 degree angle. This is the angle at which normal (tension) stress is at a maximum.

Did you personally visit the OKC downtown after April 19?  If you did I can't imagine you would ask that question.  I can't speak one way or another to your other questions, but I was going to school in Norman at the time of the OKC blast, and I drove into OKC to look at the federal building and was shocked at the extent of the destruction.  There wasn't a window intact for blocks.  It looked like pictures I've seen from Beirut.  The buildings that had direct lines of sight to the front of the federal building all had structural damage.  The water records building on the north side of the street had severe damage to its walls and brickwork.  The YMCA building had some pretty major damage, too.   To say the damage to other buildings was minimal is pure bunk, as anyone else who saw the damage in person can surely attest.

Sorry ADN, other buildings were destroyed, others died in them, and some buildings blocks away had structural damage.  Please go to OK City and talk to those that were there before you make false statements like that.

As for the rebar and the bomb blast, I'll agree that there are inconsistencies, but I have yet to see any substantive proof (unlike WACO) that anything sinister happened.

Are you the "Boston T. Party" that writes all those books?  

[):)]
NSF

Well I will tell you one thing, before the bombing I told several of my friends that I wondered if the government was going to do anything to keep the Gun Ban from being repealed as was planned. I thought there would be another shooting or something to keep the legislature from voting to repeal the 94 gun ban. Well when the building was bombed I thought, no they would not go that far just to hurt us gun owners. But with what I heard and saw on TV about it I knew that something was very wrong with what they say happened. One thing that really bothered me was the fact that Mcveigh when he was caught was driving a car with out a license plate and that he was carrying a pistol that could be seen under his jacket and considering what he had just done, did not offer any resistance to being arrested. It was just like he wanted to be arrested. He apparently did everything correctly as to setting off the explosive device, but he completely screwed up when it came to escaping. Would someone please explain to me why he would be driving a car with the license plate hanging by one screw, with a weapon in a shoulder holster that was worn under a very light jacket that did not properly cover up his weapon, and he did not simply shoot the cop that stopped him. I know if I had just blown up that building I would not be taken alive, that is a fact.

If we look at the facts of the bombing a few things will be apparent, one is that he was not related to anyone who was killed by the Feds. He had the intelligence to carry out the bombing but was not smart enough to keep from being caught, in fact he would have to be stupid to get caught the way he was. He was a veteran of the gulf war who was passed over for Special Forces, and that meant everything to him. So this is what I believe could have happened. someone from the government came up to him and asked him if he loved his country, of course he said yes, then he was asked if he would be willing to do something extremely dangerous and maybe even a suicide mission for his country, and that if he was successful he could still finally be able to get into the Special Forces.

Now I am not saying that this is what happened, I am just saying that it could have happened. The government wanted to make sure that their gun control agenda would not be endangered, and they needed something to make sure that the gun ban would not be repealed, they needed an incident, and an incident is what they got.

Ok maybe I am a conspiracy nut for believing this but I would not put anything beyond what this government is capable of, especially the Clinton Administration.    

I posted General Ben Partin's analysis of the blast more than once. I still don't know why people believe the crap from the media and the discredited fbi. This is especially after Frederick Whitehurst coming forward exposing evidence tampering and incompetence in the fbi crime lab, and now the discovery of "lost" OKC bomb documents.

I believe that McVay in the Gov. own words was and may still be a good soldier.
He will die before he compromises his men and the mission they were assigned.
Just a thought that no one else seems to have thought about.[:(]

posted by Larry G
[b]This is according to McVeigh's lawyers. Anyone can make a statement without proof. We see it every day from HCI and MMM. I find it hard to believe that they knew and did nothing and let those children die. Why would they do that? I don't trust the feds either, but I think this is preposterous. And please don't use the worn out references to Waco and Ruby Ridge.[/b]

At the time there was a bill in congress a anti
terrost bill about the same time this bill was just sitting there about waiting to die then BOOM there went the federal office.

WHY WOULD THEY LET THOSE KIDS DIE! I believe
they considered this has collateral damage. the feds have no problem burning women and kids
out of a home because of a law and if you do not
believe so. you are living in a fantasy world.
I've heard also that beeper's went off, and a lot of feds did not show up that day.  

Here's the link to an article on General Ben Partin's analysis of the OKC bombing:

[url]http://pyne.kinfolk.org/rbp2/okcbomb.html[/url]

Sterling Credentials
Another 'wacko conspiracy theory"? Absolutely not. What makes General Partin's position so noteworthy and compelling is his methodical, scientific analysis combined with his sterling career and credentials. Twenty-five of his 31 years of active service in the Air Force were involved in intensive research, design, testing, and management of weapons development at all levels. This included extensive hands-on work at the Ballistic Research Laboratories and filed testing of all types of explosive devices on a broad spectrum of structures and targets. He served as commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory and was the first chairman of the joint service Air Munitions Requirements and Development Committee in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. This committee was responsible for the harmonization of air munitions requirements and development for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps.
General Partin is recognized as a long-time guiding force behind our modern precision-guided weapons and related target acquisition, target designation, and guidance systems. He initiated, fought for, and helped get into service many weapons now in our nation's munitions inventory. As the Air Force System Command's Special Assistant for Advanced Weapons, he started the earliest focused energy weapons program in 1957, wrote the first contract for a coherent optical frequency generator (i.e. laser) in 1958, and pushed for development of a functional "Star Wars" missile system decades before it became the hotly debated issue of the 1980s. General Partin was a Command Pilot and Command Missileman, a Distinguished Graduate of the Air War College, a recipient of the Distinguished Service Medal and thrice a recipient of the Legion of Merit. He received a B.S. degree in chemical engineering, and M.S. in aeronautical (armament) engineering, and completed academics for a Ph.D. in operations research and statistics.


In short, General Ben Partin is not just your average "expert," and his reasoned analysis deserves a careful examination, instead of a snide dismissal as "just another Elvis sighting" -- a response typical of the media elites and "sophisticated" political servants.

i'll post this again- does anyone have apic of the blast area right were the truck blew up?  is there a crater?  i can't remember - if there was a crater would the information from the movie patriot games be true?    also on the 20/20 show about okc the siesmograph (sp for sure) showed two nearly simulatnious spikes - two explosions a second or two apart - any data on this?

steve

Here is another interesting analysis by the Armament Directorate, Wright Laboratory at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. Also according the the study, they state 2,200 pounds of properly prepared ANFO is equivalent to 830 pounds of TNT. It would take more than 8000 pounds of ANFO to equal 3,000 pounds of TNT.

[url]www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/multibla.html[/url]

"The Eglin Blast Effects Study.

The government, in trying to prove that a single Ryder truck filled with explosives could have caused the damage seen in the Murrah building commissioned an
experimental study by the Armament Directorate, Wright Laboratory at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. Intended to be used to bolseter the "lone bomber" case
against Timothy McVeigh, the results of the study proved to be an embarressment to the government."

EBES conclusion:

   "Due to these conditions, it is impossible to ascribe the damage
    that occurred on April 19, 1995 to a single truck bomb containing
    4,800 lbs. of ANFO. In fact, the maximum predicted damage to the
    floor panels of the Murrah Federal Building is equal to
    approximately 1% of the total floor area of the building.
    Furthermore, due to the lack of symmetrical damage pattern at the
    Murrah Building, it would be inconsistent with the results of the
    ETS test [number] one to state that all of the damage to the Murrah
    Building is the result of the truck bomb.
   
    The damage to the Murrah Federal Building is consistent with damage
    resulting from mechanically coupled devices placed locally within
    the structure....
   
    It must be concluded that the damage at the Murrah Federal Building
    is not the result of the truck bomb itself, but rather due to other
    factors such as locally placed charges within the building
    itself.... The procedures used to cause the damage to the Murrah
    Building are therefore more involved and complex than simply
    parking a truck and leaving...."

The cite for the "Eglin blast effects study" is as queer as the proverbial three dollar bill. A real report would generally have a tech report number or other identifying number other than the title, which is just about worthless for retrieval. Also, there is no "Wright Labs". There's an Air Force Research Laboratory, and there's Wright-Pat AFB, at which part of AFRL happens to be located, but no "Wright Lab". In the immortal words of General Buck Turgidson, "I'm beginning to smell a big fat commie rat."

Air overpressure effects can be quite effective at knocking stuff down. See for example the various "effects of nuclear weapons" tables for blast overpressure, such as [url]http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html[/url].

1 psi     Window glass shatters
         Light injuries from fragments occur.
3 psi     Residential structures collapse.
         Serious injuries are common, fatalities may occur.
5 psi     Most buildings collapse.
         Injuries are universal, fatalities are widespread.
10 psi    Reinforced concrete buildings are severely damaged or demolished.
         Most people are killed.
20 psi    Heavily built concrete buildings are severely damaged or demolished.
         Fatalities approach 100%.

I've calculated the blast overpressure from a 3,000 lb TNT-equivalent bomb in the recent past, and at approximatley 40 ft is was well into the 50 psi and above range. The TNT equivalent of ANFO around 0.6, so with 4,800 lbs of AN, the nitromethane, and a couple hundred pounds of HE initiator he'd be in the 3,000 lb TNT equivalent range. That's a hell of a big bang. It's also why there was so much subsidiary damage to nearby buildings. The building across the street at the other end of the block suffered a partial collapse. The cars in the parking lot across from the blast were knocked all over the place. Some 30 buildings nearby had to be condemned.

The Partin report is mostly a bunch of buzzwords strung together. A real engineer would have at least told us the diameter of the reinforced concrete columns that were destroyed. He makes much of the lack of a symmetrical blast effect, but that's unsurprising. The front wall that got destroyed would have absorbed and redirected some of the blast.

I will post the link of the reproduced Partin Report. If you read those 2 links I supplied they were obviously articles written about the reports.

I am curious, what exactly is your background?

The Feds always beef up security on April 19 (just happens to be my birthday). They've been beefing up ever since Waco. It's just standard policy.

That's WAY different than having specific information about a specific threat.

You need to take EVERY report/account you read with some skeptical grains of sodium chloride. Consider the source. Question authority.

Tim fries on Monday. Wanna put some money on it?

I picked up an undergrad engineering degree--not in civil, but they afflicted all of us with the standard statics, materials, thermo, and the rest. Later on I picked up a graduate engineering degree, where they taught us how to check out a book from the library.

"Alvin Norberg", cited in one of the reports as a licensed professional engineer, is an electrical engineer. [url]http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/l_lookup.htm[/url]

At 50 ft the blast overpressure from a 3,000 lb TNT bomb is about 40 psi. At 40 ft it's pushing 70 or 80 psi. As soon as he knocked out the three columns closest to the blast the columns that were supported by them, A2-A8 as I recall, went down as a direct result. B3, B4, and B5 in the back row were all heavily damaged, with B3 failing. You can see why this happened with the graphic at [url]http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/images/okcity/bomb18.gif

[/url]. They've got a good collection of graphics, diagrams and photos in the okcity directory.

I watched it on TV right after the explosion happened. At fisrt,they said the building has collapsed,that's how soon I caught it. The media said two more explosives were found on the backside of the building.Shortly after that,
nothing was ever mentioned of it again. Duh...this is not a cover up...duhh.....uuhhhh. If you would,please read this,not a boring read and makes you wonder what the hell REALLY happened.
[url]www.patshannan.bizland.com/yeakey.html[/url]

I, for one, do not want to spend the rest of my life hearing about the [b]second 'bomber' on the 'grassy knoll' in OKC on April 19, 1995.[/b]

If there is any reason at all (besides further embarassment of the FBI, which is good) for a delay in the execution of McVeigh, it would be to determine if anyone else might have participated in the attack.

And the problem with that is that no one will ever seriously take on that task.

I don't trust the government to do it, McVeigh and his lawyers certainly won't do it, and I'm certain that no one else will be able to credibly do it.  

End of story? Not by a long shot!

Eric The(NotSoGullible)Hun[>]:)]

We all know O.J. did it and so did Patsy Ramsey and look what happened.  O.J. had a trial that was a joke from the beginning and Patsy hasn't even been arrested.  It just seems to me that if the feds fail to provide all documents as required then the trial wasn't fair...whether McVeigh did it or not.  Isn't that what we always hear...FAIR TRIAL....FAIR TRIAL...FOLLOW THE LAW...DOT ALL THE I's and CROSS ALL THE T's?  This is a major screw up but everybody seems to want to rush to the finish line.  What about the two explosions?  What about John Doe No. 2?  What about the agents mysteriously taking the day off?  What about the fact that experts say fertilizer could not have caused that amount of damage?  Yes, the guy deserves to die...but let's find out what really happened and follow the law...all the way...not just to suit our needs.

two interesting links:

first, a discussion of building design to resist explosives: [url]http://www.wai.com/AppliedScience/Blast/blast-struct-design.html[/url]

Second, some interesting excel spreadsheets that give pressures at various distances for different explosives: [url]http://www-afsc.saia.af.mil/AFSC/RDBMS/Weapons/Weapons-Crossfeed.htm[/url]

They give the TNT equivalent for ANFO as 0.83, which would have put the OKC bomb at about a 4,000 lb TNT equivalent.

Here is the text of the Partin report.

[url]www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/PARTIN/okm.htm[/url]